Efficiency isn't everything. Anything that takes me away from what I'm working on - like, say, a sudden transition to a fullscreen application full of brightly colored tiles - is an immediate dealbreaker for me.
You must never play any video games that cut away to a menu screen.
Seriously, what?
If you're going to be thrown off by going into another screen for a second, pin the things you use to your taskbar. And then they will be there, forever, and you will never have to open Metro again.
If your argument is that you shouldn't have to, guess what? You can also right click the bottom left of the screen, pull up File Explorer and hey! Go hunt for it the same way you would in the Start Menu.
That's where the magic happens. I don't even sleep my computer anymore. I just shut it down all the way because, guess what, it's basically just as fast to boot it cold now as it is to wake it from hibernation. Awesome stuff.
I haven't even looked at Windows 8, but this is a compelling argument to get me to switch.
I got an SSD and windows 8 at the same time, so I don't know which is the bigger factor, but if I hit the power button on my computer and monitor at the same time the computer is generally at the start screen by the time the display is on.
Efficiency isn't everything. Anything that takes me away from what I'm working on - like, say, a sudden transition to a fullscreen application full of brightly colored tiles - is an immediate dealbreaker for me.
You must never play any video games that cut away to a menu screen.
Seriously, what?
That is an exceptionally bizarre comparison. For one thing, a menu screen in a game is a part of the game experience, not something external intruding (although to be fair, I do also hate the Ribbon interface for much the same reason). For a second, when I'm playing a game I'm obviously not in productivity mode. Because I'm playing a game.
Efficiency isn't everything. Anything that takes me away from what I'm working on - like, say, a sudden transition to a fullscreen application full of brightly colored tiles - is an immediate dealbreaker for me.
You must never play any video games that cut away to a menu screen.
Seriously, what?
That is an exceptionally bizarre comparison. For one thing, a menu screen in a game is a part of the game experience, not something external intruding (although to be fair, I do also hate the Ribbon interface for much the same reason). For a second, when I'm playing a game I'm obviously not in productivity mode. Because I'm playing a game.
What?
You're in productivity mode, and you're going through productivity windows. A menu to open something up for productivity, even if it's full screen, is not a totally wacky and new experience wholly unrelated to productivity!
It's not like you have to play Space Invaders to open a program. You have to go click on a button. How is that not a continuation of productivity?
Generally speaking you type with two hands. Any time you are using the mouse, you are not typing. That is why power users tend to prefer keyboard shortcuts.
"Super" is the platform agnostic word for the "Windows" key in windows keyboards and the cloverleaf key on Mac keyboards.
I guess I fit somewhere between a casual user and a power user which is why the Win8 interface is a pain for me.
When I type I have both hands on the keyboard. When I use the mouse for non-gaming stuff I tend to have one hand on the mouse and the other on the desk resting. this means that if I have to use the search function to find the application I am looking for, I have to move my hands to the keyboard and then back. I would rather just select the program with 1-2 clicks of the mouse rather than click, move hands to keyboard, type, move hands off keyboard, proceed.
There is also the think that when I had to use a Win8 machine for work, the first thing I did was clear all the junk icons from the tile menu. I like to start with a minimalistic setup and add the stuff I need to it. Win8 throws all that extra stuff at me that I do not need and puts it front and center.
I do prefer to click a Start button to open the menu rather than having to move the mouse since for me a click is more definite and I tend to miss the corner on my first move and then have to keep dragging the mouse when the menu does not open.
I agree with Tube, you can hate Windows 8 just because it feels off to you, or you don't like the interface, okay. I'm even willing to let the "This productivity screen interrupted my productivity" thing go and say fine, it's not for you. But people saying it's a mistake, or Microsoft screwed up with Win8, or that learning how to do things in the new way is too hard...
You're in productivity mode, and you're going through productivity windows. A menu to open something up for productivity, even if it's full screen, is not a totally wacky and new experience wholly unrelated to productivity!
There is a very big difference between opening a menu that overlays on top of what is already on screen and switching to a completely different screen, even if you are accomplishing the same function with it. There's a reason no productivity software (except Windows 8, apparently!) use fullscreen menus.
So don't use them. I've already given you a couple ways to never use them again. There's also the Classic Shell if you just want Windows 7 back but can't get away from the sweet sweet loading times and the system actually taking full advantage of your hardware on Windows 8. And it's free, but if you are hardcore you could go buy Start8 I suppose.
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FramlingFaceHeadGeebs has bad ideas.Registered Userregular
Generally speaking you type with two hands. Any time you are using the mouse, you are not typing. That is why power users tend to prefer keyboard shortcuts.
It's been my experience that "power users tend to prefer <x>" usually really means "I prefer <x>, and I assume everyone else is the same way," with an optional opening for a no-true-Scotsman.
I think I probably use the mouse way more than I use the keyboard, because I find myself having to navigate amongst way too many separate tasks in way too many different contexts for Alt-Tabbing to be feasible. And I don't have a scroll wheel on my keyboard.
Trying to remote in to a Win8 box was a pain in the ass in windowed mode, since clicking the lower left pixel was a pain. Having a big round button to click will be so much better.
Word. I spend a preposterous amount of my time remoting into various machines, real and virtual, via three or four different remoting mechanisms, with disparate behaviors as far as forwarding the windows key. Though it has been my experience that you can hover in the vicinity of the lower-left corner to make the start screen menu button whatever thing to appear, instead of having to be exactly over the one pixel. (Either that, or I'm a way more accurate mouser than I realized.) But yeah, glad to see the button come back.
FULL DISCLOSURE: JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM A FULL-TIME EMPLOYEE OF MICROSOFT CORPORATION. ANY OPINIONS EXPRESSED HEREIN ARE MY OWN, AND NOT THOSE OF MICROSOFT CORPORATION OR ITS SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES. I WAS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE DEVELOPMENT, MARKETING, PUBLICATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF THE PRODUCT OR PRODUCTS IN QUESTION. I MEAN, I USED IT BEFORE ANYTHING WAS ANNOUNCED, LIKE TO PERFORM TESTING OF THE PRODUCT I DO WORK ON ON THE PLATFORM, SO I'M NOT AS TOTALLY IN THE DARK AS I'D BE IF WE WERE TALKING ABOUT OFFICE OR XBOX OR SOMETHING. SO I AM TRYING TO WATCH WHAT I SAY HERE, BUT APPARENTLY WE'VE RELEASED A PREVIEW OR SOMETHING, SO REALLY, PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING I KNOW ABOUT IT AT THIS POINT IS PROBABLY PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. ANY LIKENESS TO ANY PERSONS OR EVENTS, LIVING OR DEAD, ARE COINCIDENTAL. THIS DISCLAIMER NOT TO BE REMOVED UNDER PENALTY OF LAW EXCEPT BY THE END CONSUMER. THIS TELECAST IS COPYRIGHTED BY THE NFL FOR THE PRIVATE USE OF OUR AUDIENCE. ANY OTHER USE OF THIS TELECAST, OR OF ANY PICTURES, DESCRIPTIONS, OR ACCOUNTS OF THE GAME WITHOUT THE NFL'S CONSENT IS PROHIBITED.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
I agree with Tube, you can hate Windows 8 just because it feels off to you, or you don't like the interface, okay. I'm even willing to let the "This productivity screen interrupted my productivity" thing go and say fine, it's not for you. But people saying it's a mistake, or Microsoft screwed up with Win8, or that learning how to do things in the new way is too hard...
Well, that's pretty damn debatable.
As of May, Windows 8 had a 3.84% usage rate. This is well behind even the much-reviled Vista at the same point in it's release. That Windows 8 was a screwup on Microsoft's part is essentially the only thing that isn't up for debate.
So don't use them. I've already given you a couple ways to never use them again. There's also the Classic Shell if you just want Windows 7 back but can't get away from the sweet sweet loading times and the system actually taking full advantage of your hardware on Windows 8. And it's free, but if you are hardcore you could go buy Start8 I suppose.
Or I could just stick with my Windows 7 instead of spending money to support a UI direction I don't like, as well as extra money to undo said UI direction.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
I don't know if I dislike windows 8 because I'm an old man who hates on change or I dislike it based on win8s own merit. Maybe I would like it more if i was forced to use it? I'm not sure.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
I don't know if I dislike windows 8 because I'm an old man who hates on change or I dislike it based on win8s own merit. Maybe I would like it more if i was forced to use it? I'm not sure.
I think it's both for me :P Also you can't radically redesign a UI that has been fairly standard for like 25 years now and not expect some pushback :P
I don't know if I dislike windows 8 because I'm an old man who hates on change or I dislike it based on win8s own merit. Maybe I would like it more if i was forced to use it? I'm not sure.
How do you know you dislike it if you don't even use it?
So don't use them. I've already given you a couple ways to never use them again. There's also the Classic Shell if you just want Windows 7 back but can't get away from the sweet sweet loading times and the system actually taking full advantage of your hardware on Windows 8. And it's free, but if you are hardcore you could go buy Start8 I suppose.
I'm kinda with PikaBot on this one. For one thing, there's been times when I've wanted to refer to some open window on my Desktop while I looked for something in Start, but you can't. And really, in general, it's a more jarring transition, and when you already take medication for focus issues, you tend to be pretty aware of (and resentful of) things that fuck with your focus.
I mean, I've adjusted. I pin more shit, and use QuickLaunch (which you can still turn on, if you know how), and just generally don't rely on the start menu as much for regular, frequent workflow stuff, and relegate it more to the "wait, I had a thing for this..." kind of scenarios it's better for.
So I guess my point is "I've learned the new thing, but I hate that I had to learn the new thing, I am a human and instinctively desire comfort and familiarity even though life is change and growth, we live in a world of pain"? I don't know.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
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FramlingFaceHeadGeebs has bad ideas.Registered Userregular
I don't know if I dislike windows 8 because I'm an old man who hates on change or I dislike it based on win8s own merit. Maybe I would like it more if i was forced to use it? I'm not sure.
How do you know you dislike it if you don't even use it?
I don't know, a whole lot of people are managing to dislike the new Xbox.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
And really, in general, it's a more jarring transition, and when you already take medication for focus issues, you tend to be pretty aware of (and resentful of) things that fuck with your focus
I take adderall every day and I don't have an issue.
Clearly I'm in the minority, though.
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FramlingFaceHeadGeebs has bad ideas.Registered Userregular
And really, in general, it's a more jarring transition, and when you already take medication for focus issues, you tend to be pretty aware of (and resentful of) things that fuck with your focus
I take adderall every day and I don't have an issue.
Clearly I'm in the minority, though.
Or maybe we're in the minority. Or maybe there's an exactly equal number. Or maybe your meds work better than mine, or he's more cognizant of that kind of thing, or your focus and compensation mechanisms are better-suited to this specific issue, or maybe different people have different brains that work different ways. My point is just that it's a real thing, I've experienced it myself, and it's not just as simple as 'nuh-uh'.
I mean, I don't want to come off as a dick here. I can see how it would be fine for someone whose brain doesn't work the way mine does. I'm sure it's not a problem for a lot of people. Obviously it wasn't a thing at all for a great enough proportion of users that it made it through the entire design process. But speaking personally, I tend to offload a lot of context and state information into the visual and spatial arrangement of the shit I'm working on. So when you take something that I had previously used as a frequent workflow step, and change it so that it completely obscures most of that information, in a very real sense, you're fucking with my mental processes. Like I said, I've adjusted over time, and I think an argument could be made that the end result works better, but it was still jarring in a way that it took a while to be able to really articulate.
I think it's tempting to think of brains like computers, but they're not computers. Sometimes they act weird, in ways that don't make sense. Shit, I'd argue that most of the time, they act weird in ways that don't make sense.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I agree with Tube, you can hate Windows 8 just because it feels off to you, or you don't like the interface, okay. I'm even willing to let the "This productivity screen interrupted my productivity" thing go and say fine, it's not for you. But people saying it's a mistake, or Microsoft screwed up with Win8, or that learning how to do things in the new way is too hard...
Well, that's pretty damn debatable.
Okay, that's fair. I retract my assertion that MS screwed up with Win8; seeing as how I have not used it much, and I'm not a user experience or interface designer, I probably don't have a basis for making this statement on my own.
It is pretty non-controversial that Win8 has been very poorly received, though, which is why I jumped to that conclusion.
Generally speaking you type with two hands. Any time you are using the mouse, you are not typing. That is why power users tend to prefer keyboard shortcuts.
It's been my experience that "power users tend to prefer <x>" usually really means "I prefer <x>, and I assume everyone else is the same way," with an optional opening for a no-true-Scotsman.
I think I probably use the mouse way more than I use the keyboard, because I find myself having to navigate amongst way too many separate tasks in way too many different contexts for Alt-Tabbing to be feasible. And I don't have a scroll wheel on my keyboard.
For sure, "Power user" is a spectrum. On one end you have my mom, and on the other end you have people who use Emacs for their OS. I'm just saying as you move further along towards graybeards, you use the mouse less and less.
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"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
Perhaps the active users of Windows 8 is down because of competition from Android and iOS that never or barely existed the launches of previous Windows OSs. I know several people who've shifted to an entirely tablet-driven workflow. Also, Windows 7 is a mighty fine OS so there's not much incentive to upgrade, especially if you're completely comfy in your workflow.
I've used Windows 8 for awhile now on the Surface Pro, and after a great deal of pinching, poking, and swiping, I think I'm in a pretty good place with it. I LOVE the responsiveness and boot time. I do feel like sometimes the OS is trying too hard to be my best buddy friend by throwing colorful tiles and notifiers at me. Just calm down and run my programs, please. That could also be the result of constantly switching between Windows 7 (work) and 8 (home). I am intrigued by Windows 8.1's customization options, though.
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MichaelLCIn what furnace was thy brain?ChicagoRegistered Userregular
That's where the magic happens. I don't even sleep my computer anymore. I just shut it down all the way because, guess what, it's basically just as fast to boot it cold now as it is to wake it from hibernation. Awesome stuff.
I haven't even looked at Windows 8, but this is a compelling argument to get me to switch.
I got an SSD and windows 8 at the same time, so I don't know which is the bigger factor, but if I hit the power button on my computer and monitor at the same time the computer is generally at the start screen by the time the display is on.
The boot time is pretty impressive, even on this i5 laptop. It possibly got faster after installing Win8, or certainly no slower than 7. I still hate the tiles, but can't knock the speed.
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
See, I don't own a tablet and have no interest in getting one. So I guess I'm just weird.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
Perhaps the active users of Windows 8 is down because of competition from Android and iOS that never or barely existed the launches of previous Windows OSs. I know several people who've shifted to an entirely tablet-driven workflow. Also, Windows 7 is a mighty fine OS so there's not much incentive to upgrade, especially if you're completely comfy in your workflow.
This. Also, the "every odd release of Windows is terrible" meme sort of took off after Vista flopped, so it wouldn't surprise me if people had more of a wait-and-see attitude this time around.
I did something weird when I set up my hard drives so the Progam links in my start menu only work if they're installed on my E drive. I basically only use the Start menu for Documents/Downloads/Computer and just navigate everything from there, so now you can boot Windows 8 straight to the desktop it might be cool to check it out. I don't think I'd really appreciate the speed boost over W7 as I've got an SSD though, so it's kind of a wash.
I feel like if you're still on Vista or earlier then you might as well make the jump to W8, but for W7 it's not really worth spending money on.
3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
My only experience with windows 8 was an enormously frustrating evening trying to figure out why the Internet browser wasn't doing what I suspected it should - open email and then download something. I had to google the problem and find some bizarre workaround just to get it to do it. I absolutely hated the interface and everything to do with it, but in fairness that was because it was the first time I had to use it.
If I had more time with it on my own computer, I would probably have a much better opinion of it. Trying to do something in a rush and finding all kinds of weird issues with a new OS isn't a good introduction.
I agree with Tube, you can hate Windows 8 just because it feels off to you, or you don't like the interface, okay. I'm even willing to let the "This productivity screen interrupted my productivity" thing go and say fine, it's not for you. But people saying it's a mistake, or Microsoft screwed up with Win8, or that learning how to do things in the new way is too hard...
Well, that's pretty damn debatable.
You've been pretty condescending thus far. Are you trying to convince people to give Windows 8 a shot? It seems more like you're just insulting folks that don't like it.
Like someone else earlier in the thread said, I like having everything organized into trees of folders and subfolders (or directories and subdirectories). In terms of organization, I'm still pretty much in the DOS era, just with longer filenames. (So, Win95/98, then.) I eschew the use of libraries and symbolic links and software that tries to say "oh here, let me hide all that behind a wall and take care of everything for you, you poor dear." (NO. GRR. Back off.)
So the few games I have these days that aren't installed via Steam get put in "C:\Games", same as twenty years ago. My "My Pictures" folder is empty (except for whatever MS is putting in there when the OS ships; I wouldn't know, I haven't looked), but I have a "C:\Images" directory stacked six layers deep in places. "My Documents" gets redirected to the not-entirely-accurate "C:\Downloads", 'cause it's the easiest way to get the practical result I want and am used to; and don't even ask me about the even-less-accurate "C:\Temp" directory.
But the thing is, I honestly do know where everything is. (Usually. Sometimes I have to search for a filename, or text within that file, when it's not where it should be or in a group of similarly-named files created over a decade or two.) Applications I use frequently get shortcuts on the desktop, or pinned to the taskbar, sure, and everything is in the Start Menu, grouped into folders by category - my browser bookmarks are the same way. But if I really had to for some reason, I could find every single one within their actual directories on the disk.
However, since I don't use keyboard shortcuts (except for ctrl-V, etc) or the CLI (except when something breaks, I need to run a tracert or reset my IP, etc), I'm apparently not a "power user."
Summary: Trees are good. I like trees. A bunch of stuff on my desktop means I've been lazy and haven't gotten around to sorting it into its proper place(s) in the directory tree.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from the idea that the Start screen is supposed to replace the Start menu, not the Desktop. Because the Start screen doesn't act like a menu. A full-screen field where you can pin icons and move them around? That doesn't sound like a menu, that sounds like a desktop.
So if I pin all my important programs and tools to the Start menu, the Desktop starts to feel redundant. Which is why people complain that Win 8 feels like a weird hybrid monster of computer and tablet interface. Either drop the Desktop completely and replace it with Metro, with a tile for Windows Explorer if you want to go deeper into the file structure, or keep the Desktop and give people a software launcher that doesn't take up the entire screen and play by its own rules.
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
edited June 2013
Windows 8 is fantastic except for the way it launches metro apps from the desktop, so suddenly quick popping open of an image or something take up the entirety of your 27" screen and multiple disoriented keypresses to make go away. And this continues until you find and remove file associations from all the offending metro apps. There just needs to be a one-step "I AM ON A DESKTOP WITH A HUGE DISPLAY PLEASE DISABLE METRO APPS OR AT LEAST MAKE THEM NOT FILL THE SCREEN" button
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Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Windows 8 is good. I do use it at work, and we sell it to our clients, and it definitely has some very nice features about it. There is a learning curve, though, and the decision to separate Metro from the Desktop was downright stupid. They should've had a Metro-desktop combo mode or something, or at least more customization options.
The biggest problem is LOBs that are still working on 2000/XP code, let alone Vista/7. 8 hasn't introduced much in the way of unique compatibility issues, but there's something hair-pullingly frustrating about trying to get a Win8 machine to work with a 6 year old version of XenApp to remote into a machine running Server 2000/2003, and the vendor won't update it.
Now, the biggest mistake Microsoft has made with Windows 8? Not making Office 2013 a dual-natured app. It's still desktop only, so Outlook requires the mail app to properly display calendar invites or show unread mail items on the desktop. Word and Excel have all that ugly border region. Powerpoint can't take advantage of some of Metro's nifty tricks. All it would've taken would have been a "Switch app mode" button or something to get past the Metro/Desktop canyon, and we'd be good.. but no. For all the pushing that Microsoft is doing for Metro, their #1 software program doesn't support it in any form (and the click-to-run stuff is actually pretty cool!). That is something Microsoft should have never let happen.
Like someone else earlier in the thread said, I like having everything organized into trees of folders and subfolders (or directories and subdirectories). In terms of organization, I'm still pretty much in the DOS era, just with longer filenames. (So, Win95/98, then.) I eschew the use of libraries and symbolic links and software that tries to say "oh here, let me hide all that behind a wall and take care of everything for you, you poor dear." (NO. GRR. Back off.)
I'm old scholl that way too. The Library thing is nice for sharing media, though. I dump all my pictures into Public's folders, then link those to the two User accounts' picture libraries - So seamless to move pics from camera from either user account. Probably some slicker way of doing it, but going OK so far.
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Like someone else earlier in the thread said, I like having everything organized into trees of folders and subfolders (or directories and subdirectories). In terms of organization, I'm still pretty much in the DOS era, just with longer filenames. (So, Win95/98, then.) I eschew the use of libraries and symbolic links and software that tries to say "oh here, let me hide all that behind a wall and take care of everything for you, you poor dear." (NO. GRR. Back off.)
So the few games I have these days that aren't installed via Steam get put in "C:\Games", same as twenty years ago. My "My Pictures" folder is empty (except for whatever MS is putting in there when the OS ships; I wouldn't know, I haven't looked), but I have a "C:\Images" directory stacked six layers deep in places. "My Documents" gets redirected to the not-entirely-accurate "C:\Downloads", 'cause it's the easiest way to get the practical result I want and am used to; and don't even ask me about the even-less-accurate "C:\Temp" directory.
But the thing is, I honestly do know where everything is. (Usually. Sometimes I have to search for a filename, or text within that file, when it's not where it should be or in a group of similarly-named files created over a decade or two.) Applications I use frequently get shortcuts on the desktop, or pinned to the taskbar, sure, and everything is in the Start Menu, grouped into folders by category - my browser bookmarks are the same way. But if I really had to for some reason, I could find every single one within their actual directories on the disk.
However, since I don't use keyboard shortcuts (except for ctrl-V, etc) or the CLI (except when something breaks, I need to run a tracert or reset my IP, etc), I'm apparently not a "power user."
Summary: Trees are good. I like trees. A bunch of stuff on my desktop means I've been lazy and haven't gotten around to sorting it into its proper place(s) in the directory tree.
Trees ARE good, and I don't bother with Win7's library crap either. But I think you should reconsider putting things in the root directory like that. Even if you don't have multiple users, OS's are designed at this point to support them. You should really put your stuff tree in /Users/<username>. You would never put folders like that in / in linux, that would severely violate the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. Windows has no such standard, they seem to change the layout with every release, but I think it is pretty clear that the root directory is not the correct answer.
But that's just my suggestion. It is your computer, do what you want!
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
That's where the magic happens. I don't even sleep my computer anymore. I just shut it down all the way because, guess what, it's basically just as fast to boot it cold now as it is to wake it from hibernation. Awesome stuff.
I haven't even looked at Windows 8, but this is a compelling argument to get me to switch.
I got an SSD and windows 8 at the same time, so I don't know which is the bigger factor, but if I hit the power button on my computer and monitor at the same time the computer is generally at the start screen by the time the display is on.
I find it dangerous to praise boot times on a new iteration of any OS. When I got Windows 7 and it was still fresh and new then it took 12 seconds from pressing the power button to having a browser open on my machine. Now after several years of use and a pile of crap installed it's in the region of 30 seconds.
Now, the biggest mistake Microsoft has made with Windows 8? Not making Office 2013 a dual-natured app. It's still desktop only, so Outlook requires the mail app to properly display calendar invites or show unread mail items on the desktop. Word and Excel have all that ugly border region. Powerpoint can't take advantage of some of Metro's nifty tricks. All it would've taken would have been a "Switch app mode" button or something to get past the Metro/Desktop canyon, and we'd be good.. but no. For all the pushing that Microsoft is doing for Metro, their #1 software program doesn't support it in any form (and the click-to-run stuff is actually pretty cool!). That is something Microsoft should have never let happen.
I've heard rumbling and noises (out there on the internet, I've got no actual inside information on this, it's a totally different division of the company, etc., etc., etc.) about a non-desktop Outlook being in the works. And OneNote is already available in both Desktop and non-Desktop flavors.
They don't really talk to each other, though, which is aggravating. Unless they can both connect to the actual files (which I keep online, so it requires internet access), then changes from one don't show up in the other. I usually prefer the non-desktop interface for just writing things in, but some operations are complicated or impossible without the desktop interface (like managing sections/section groups, or finding tags and creating a summary page). So I can't easily perform those operations when I'm on the bus, which is when I do the most writing. And program associations can make it annoying to get a notebook open in both of them.
But yeah, in general it's nice having the streamlined UI for simple, basic usage, with the option to switch to the more powerful, but more complicated UI for other tasks. I'd love that for Word and Excel, and I'd love it if the kinks got worked out.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
There is no reason to complain about Windows 8 insofar as "I don't know how to open programs or files"
Four keystrokes, click
The end
EDIT: Also, the only people I have seen complaining about Windows 8 are people who use computers regularly and are capable of figuring things out
My mother-in-law, who thought that there was water behind the screen of her iPhone when she saw this background:
was able to use my desktop with absolutely no issues whatsoever
It's not as tough as everybody apparently wants it to be
I bought my mom a windows 8 PC and she hated it, she couldn't figure out how to close a metro app she opened. Then she asked me how to do it and I had to google it because I couldn't remember. She made me take it back to the store so I just bought her a chromebook because she didn't have to relearn how to go from one thing to another in it.
"Hit start and type program name" works in Windows 7 too, without the ridiculous fullscreen start menu, or the fact that you can't run metro apps in a window
Hey Microsoft, what was the name of your operating system again?
Edit: Win 8 boot times are phenomenal, unless you use a dual boot setup because Win 8 lacks the kind of compatibility Win 7 does, in which case it takes about four times as long to boot as a similar win 7 setup
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FramlingFaceHeadGeebs has bad ideas.Registered Userregular
Hey Microsoft, what was the name of your operating system again?
My wife once was like "Windows, more like Squaresville." I thought that was pretty apt.
Edit: Win 8 boot times are phenomenal, unless you use a dual boot setup because Win 8 lacks the kind of compatibility Win 7 does, in which case it takes about four times as long to boot as a similar win 7 setup
How do you mean? I've been pretty pleased with the new boot menu stuff, but I've really only been dual-booting between a physical drive and boot-from-vhd, with Windows on both. I guess the machine I dual-boot doesn't get restarted very often, compared to the laptop which gets restarted all the time, but is only Win 8, so it could just be something I never noticed.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
I think I’ve already said it, but it’s relevant, so I’ll say it again: the times when I would upgrade an operating system simply because another operating system is available are over.
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You must never play any video games that cut away to a menu screen.
Seriously, what?
If you're going to be thrown off by going into another screen for a second, pin the things you use to your taskbar. And then they will be there, forever, and you will never have to open Metro again.
If your argument is that you shouldn't have to, guess what? You can also right click the bottom left of the screen, pull up File Explorer and hey! Go hunt for it the same way you would in the Start Menu.
I got an SSD and windows 8 at the same time, so I don't know which is the bigger factor, but if I hit the power button on my computer and monitor at the same time the computer is generally at the start screen by the time the display is on.
That is an exceptionally bizarre comparison. For one thing, a menu screen in a game is a part of the game experience, not something external intruding (although to be fair, I do also hate the Ribbon interface for much the same reason). For a second, when I'm playing a game I'm obviously not in productivity mode. Because I'm playing a game.
What?
You're in productivity mode, and you're going through productivity windows. A menu to open something up for productivity, even if it's full screen, is not a totally wacky and new experience wholly unrelated to productivity!
It's not like you have to play Space Invaders to open a program. You have to go click on a button. How is that not a continuation of productivity?
I guess I fit somewhere between a casual user and a power user which is why the Win8 interface is a pain for me.
When I type I have both hands on the keyboard. When I use the mouse for non-gaming stuff I tend to have one hand on the mouse and the other on the desk resting. this means that if I have to use the search function to find the application I am looking for, I have to move my hands to the keyboard and then back. I would rather just select the program with 1-2 clicks of the mouse rather than click, move hands to keyboard, type, move hands off keyboard, proceed.
There is also the think that when I had to use a Win8 machine for work, the first thing I did was clear all the junk icons from the tile menu. I like to start with a minimalistic setup and add the stuff I need to it. Win8 throws all that extra stuff at me that I do not need and puts it front and center.
I do prefer to click a Start button to open the menu rather than having to move the mouse since for me a click is more definite and I tend to miss the corner on my first move and then have to keep dragging the mouse when the menu does not open.
Well, that's pretty damn debatable.
There is a very big difference between opening a menu that overlays on top of what is already on screen and switching to a completely different screen, even if you are accomplishing the same function with it. There's a reason no productivity software (except Windows 8, apparently!) use fullscreen menus.
It's been my experience that "power users tend to prefer <x>" usually really means "I prefer <x>, and I assume everyone else is the same way," with an optional opening for a no-true-Scotsman.
I think I probably use the mouse way more than I use the keyboard, because I find myself having to navigate amongst way too many separate tasks in way too many different contexts for Alt-Tabbing to be feasible. And I don't have a scroll wheel on my keyboard.
Word. I spend a preposterous amount of my time remoting into various machines, real and virtual, via three or four different remoting mechanisms, with disparate behaviors as far as forwarding the windows key. Though it has been my experience that you can hover in the vicinity of the lower-left corner to make the start screen menu button whatever thing to appear, instead of having to be exactly over the one pixel. (Either that, or I'm a way more accurate mouser than I realized.) But yeah, glad to see the button come back.
FULL DISCLOSURE: JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM A FULL-TIME EMPLOYEE OF MICROSOFT CORPORATION. ANY OPINIONS EXPRESSED HEREIN ARE MY OWN, AND NOT THOSE OF MICROSOFT CORPORATION OR ITS SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES. I WAS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE DEVELOPMENT, MARKETING, PUBLICATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF THE PRODUCT OR PRODUCTS IN QUESTION. I MEAN, I USED IT BEFORE ANYTHING WAS ANNOUNCED, LIKE TO PERFORM TESTING OF THE PRODUCT I DO WORK ON ON THE PLATFORM, SO I'M NOT AS TOTALLY IN THE DARK AS I'D BE IF WE WERE TALKING ABOUT OFFICE OR XBOX OR SOMETHING. SO I AM TRYING TO WATCH WHAT I SAY HERE, BUT APPARENTLY WE'VE RELEASED A PREVIEW OR SOMETHING, SO REALLY, PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING I KNOW ABOUT IT AT THIS POINT IS PROBABLY PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. ANY LIKENESS TO ANY PERSONS OR EVENTS, LIVING OR DEAD, ARE COINCIDENTAL. THIS DISCLAIMER NOT TO BE REMOVED UNDER PENALTY OF LAW EXCEPT BY THE END CONSUMER. THIS TELECAST IS COPYRIGHTED BY THE NFL FOR THE PRIVATE USE OF OUR AUDIENCE. ANY OTHER USE OF THIS TELECAST, OR OF ANY PICTURES, DESCRIPTIONS, OR ACCOUNTS OF THE GAME WITHOUT THE NFL'S CONSENT IS PROHIBITED.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
As of May, Windows 8 had a 3.84% usage rate. This is well behind even the much-reviled Vista at the same point in it's release. That Windows 8 was a screwup on Microsoft's part is essentially the only thing that isn't up for debate.
Or I could just stick with my Windows 7 instead of spending money to support a UI direction I don't like, as well as extra money to undo said UI direction.
I think it's both for me :P Also you can't radically redesign a UI that has been fairly standard for like 25 years now and not expect some pushback :P
How do you know you dislike it if you don't even use it?
Oculus: TheBigDookie | XBL: Dook | NNID: BigDookie
I'm kinda with PikaBot on this one. For one thing, there's been times when I've wanted to refer to some open window on my Desktop while I looked for something in Start, but you can't. And really, in general, it's a more jarring transition, and when you already take medication for focus issues, you tend to be pretty aware of (and resentful of) things that fuck with your focus.
I mean, I've adjusted. I pin more shit, and use QuickLaunch (which you can still turn on, if you know how), and just generally don't rely on the start menu as much for regular, frequent workflow stuff, and relegate it more to the "wait, I had a thing for this..." kind of scenarios it's better for.
So I guess my point is "I've learned the new thing, but I hate that I had to learn the new thing, I am a human and instinctively desire comfort and familiarity even though life is change and growth, we live in a world of pain"? I don't know.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
I don't know, a whole lot of people are managing to dislike the new Xbox.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
I take adderall every day and I don't have an issue.
Clearly I'm in the minority, though.
Or maybe we're in the minority. Or maybe there's an exactly equal number. Or maybe your meds work better than mine, or he's more cognizant of that kind of thing, or your focus and compensation mechanisms are better-suited to this specific issue, or maybe different people have different brains that work different ways. My point is just that it's a real thing, I've experienced it myself, and it's not just as simple as 'nuh-uh'.
I mean, I don't want to come off as a dick here. I can see how it would be fine for someone whose brain doesn't work the way mine does. I'm sure it's not a problem for a lot of people. Obviously it wasn't a thing at all for a great enough proportion of users that it made it through the entire design process. But speaking personally, I tend to offload a lot of context and state information into the visual and spatial arrangement of the shit I'm working on. So when you take something that I had previously used as a frequent workflow step, and change it so that it completely obscures most of that information, in a very real sense, you're fucking with my mental processes. Like I said, I've adjusted over time, and I think an argument could be made that the end result works better, but it was still jarring in a way that it took a while to be able to really articulate.
I think it's tempting to think of brains like computers, but they're not computers. Sometimes they act weird, in ways that don't make sense. Shit, I'd argue that most of the time, they act weird in ways that don't make sense.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
Okay, that's fair. I retract my assertion that MS screwed up with Win8; seeing as how I have not used it much, and I'm not a user experience or interface designer, I probably don't have a basis for making this statement on my own.
It is pretty non-controversial that Win8 has been very poorly received, though, which is why I jumped to that conclusion.
For sure, "Power user" is a spectrum. On one end you have my mom, and on the other end you have people who use Emacs for their OS. I'm just saying as you move further along towards graybeards, you use the mouse less and less.
I've used Windows 8 for awhile now on the Surface Pro, and after a great deal of pinching, poking, and swiping, I think I'm in a pretty good place with it. I LOVE the responsiveness and boot time. I do feel like sometimes the OS is trying too hard to be my best buddy friend by throwing colorful tiles and notifiers at me. Just calm down and run my programs, please. That could also be the result of constantly switching between Windows 7 (work) and 8 (home). I am intrigued by Windows 8.1's customization options, though.
The boot time is pretty impressive, even on this i5 laptop. It possibly got faster after installing Win8, or certainly no slower than 7. I still hate the tiles, but can't knock the speed.
This. Also, the "every odd release of Windows is terrible" meme sort of took off after Vista flopped, so it wouldn't surprise me if people had more of a wait-and-see attitude this time around.
I feel like if you're still on Vista or earlier then you might as well make the jump to W8, but for W7 it's not really worth spending money on.
If I had more time with it on my own computer, I would probably have a much better opinion of it. Trying to do something in a rush and finding all kinds of weird issues with a new OS isn't a good introduction.
You've been pretty condescending thus far. Are you trying to convince people to give Windows 8 a shot? It seems more like you're just insulting folks that don't like it.
So the few games I have these days that aren't installed via Steam get put in "C:\Games", same as twenty years ago. My "My Pictures" folder is empty (except for whatever MS is putting in there when the OS ships; I wouldn't know, I haven't looked), but I have a "C:\Images" directory stacked six layers deep in places. "My Documents" gets redirected to the not-entirely-accurate "C:\Downloads", 'cause it's the easiest way to get the practical result I want and am used to; and don't even ask me about the even-less-accurate "C:\Temp" directory.
But the thing is, I honestly do know where everything is. (Usually. Sometimes I have to search for a filename, or text within that file, when it's not where it should be or in a group of similarly-named files created over a decade or two.) Applications I use frequently get shortcuts on the desktop, or pinned to the taskbar, sure, and everything is in the Start Menu, grouped into folders by category - my browser bookmarks are the same way. But if I really had to for some reason, I could find every single one within their actual directories on the disk.
However, since I don't use keyboard shortcuts (except for ctrl-V, etc) or the CLI (except when something breaks, I need to run a tracert or reset my IP, etc), I'm apparently not a "power user."
Summary: Trees are good. I like trees. A bunch of stuff on my desktop means I've been lazy and haven't gotten around to sorting it into its proper place(s) in the directory tree.
So if I pin all my important programs and tools to the Start menu, the Desktop starts to feel redundant. Which is why people complain that Win 8 feels like a weird hybrid monster of computer and tablet interface. Either drop the Desktop completely and replace it with Metro, with a tile for Windows Explorer if you want to go deeper into the file structure, or keep the Desktop and give people a software launcher that doesn't take up the entire screen and play by its own rules.
The biggest problem is LOBs that are still working on 2000/XP code, let alone Vista/7. 8 hasn't introduced much in the way of unique compatibility issues, but there's something hair-pullingly frustrating about trying to get a Win8 machine to work with a 6 year old version of XenApp to remote into a machine running Server 2000/2003, and the vendor won't update it.
Now, the biggest mistake Microsoft has made with Windows 8? Not making Office 2013 a dual-natured app. It's still desktop only, so Outlook requires the mail app to properly display calendar invites or show unread mail items on the desktop. Word and Excel have all that ugly border region. Powerpoint can't take advantage of some of Metro's nifty tricks. All it would've taken would have been a "Switch app mode" button or something to get past the Metro/Desktop canyon, and we'd be good.. but no. For all the pushing that Microsoft is doing for Metro, their #1 software program doesn't support it in any form (and the click-to-run stuff is actually pretty cool!). That is something Microsoft should have never let happen.
I'm old scholl that way too. The Library thing is nice for sharing media, though. I dump all my pictures into Public's folders, then link those to the two User accounts' picture libraries - So seamless to move pics from camera from either user account. Probably some slicker way of doing it, but going OK so far.
Trees ARE good, and I don't bother with Win7's library crap either. But I think you should reconsider putting things in the root directory like that. Even if you don't have multiple users, OS's are designed at this point to support them. You should really put your stuff tree in /Users/<username>. You would never put folders like that in / in linux, that would severely violate the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. Windows has no such standard, they seem to change the layout with every release, but I think it is pretty clear that the root directory is not the correct answer.
But that's just my suggestion. It is your computer, do what you want!
Means "no." </barbossa>
I find it dangerous to praise boot times on a new iteration of any OS. When I got Windows 7 and it was still fresh and new then it took 12 seconds from pressing the power button to having a browser open on my machine. Now after several years of use and a pile of crap installed it's in the region of 30 seconds.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
I've heard rumbling and noises (out there on the internet, I've got no actual inside information on this, it's a totally different division of the company, etc., etc., etc.) about a non-desktop Outlook being in the works. And OneNote is already available in both Desktop and non-Desktop flavors.
They don't really talk to each other, though, which is aggravating. Unless they can both connect to the actual files (which I keep online, so it requires internet access), then changes from one don't show up in the other. I usually prefer the non-desktop interface for just writing things in, but some operations are complicated or impossible without the desktop interface (like managing sections/section groups, or finding tags and creating a summary page). So I can't easily perform those operations when I'm on the bus, which is when I do the most writing. And program associations can make it annoying to get a notebook open in both of them.
But yeah, in general it's nice having the streamlined UI for simple, basic usage, with the option to switch to the more powerful, but more complicated UI for other tasks. I'd love that for Word and Excel, and I'd love it if the kinks got worked out.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
I bought my mom a windows 8 PC and she hated it, she couldn't figure out how to close a metro app she opened. Then she asked me how to do it and I had to google it because I couldn't remember. She made me take it back to the store so I just bought her a chromebook because she didn't have to relearn how to go from one thing to another in it.
"Hit start and type program name" works in Windows 7 too, without the ridiculous fullscreen start menu, or the fact that you can't run metro apps in a window
Hey Microsoft, what was the name of your operating system again?
Edit: Win 8 boot times are phenomenal, unless you use a dual boot setup because Win 8 lacks the kind of compatibility Win 7 does, in which case it takes about four times as long to boot as a similar win 7 setup
My wife once was like "Windows, more like Squaresville." I thought that was pretty apt.
How do you mean? I've been pretty pleased with the new boot menu stuff, but I've really only been dual-booting between a physical drive and boot-from-vhd, with Windows on both. I guess the machine I dual-boot doesn't get restarted very often, compared to the laptop which gets restarted all the time, but is only Win 8, so it could just be something I never noticed.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
Me (I am)
And this is pretty much why.