The main problem with minis is plopping them down in an open area and creating zone denial in a huge bubble. If it aims quickly in a 45 degree angle in front and much slower at other angles it becomes less of a huge bubble and more of a single avenue of attack. Out in the open it becomes easy to flank it without taking damage, but in a hallway or hidden in some nook it becomes much more effective.
The limited effective angle is also part of my idea for a reverse knockback sentry
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
We're just having our annual nerd rage over mini sentries, that's all, Pablo.
Also, Shorty WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED OF THIS Q&A SOONER AND WHY ARE YOU NOT TELLING ME EVERYTHING ABOUT IT RIGHT NOW? Also why are you cool enough to get invited to community outreach things? TELL ME YOUR SECRETS.
so, there wasn't a whole lot they talked about, balance-wise, but that one issue did come up
because it was with the economist and two...programmers, I think, it was mostly stuff regarding that, and general questions about what it's like to work at valve
also I missed like the first ten or twenty minutes because I am always late to everything everywhere (it wasn't my fault that time, the bus was fucked up)
another thing that came up was basically a comparison of valve's support for the competitive communities in DOTA 2 and TF2 and how there's a bit of a disparity between them
the dude who asked about this is a jackass who plays on my regular server, one of those shitheads who only cares about competitive play, complains about everything, hates every gametype besides 5cp, basically is just every stereotype of that particular community rolled into one
and valve's response was, basically, "well uh all we did for DOTA 2 and the international was help what was already going to happen without us. and, yeah, we know that UGC is important, and we like what they do, but the truth is that the competitive community is playing a very specific subset of TF2 that most people are simply not interested in. I mean, every time we release a new weapon, the first thing they do is ban it, whereas everyone else says 'let's go and have fun with this.' the TF2 competitive scene is basically just not in touch with what the community as a whole wants out of the game."
to which I yelled "MORE HATS"
I also reallllly wish I had been able to ask one question in particular, because the subject of maps came up, and I was like, "Oh man I wish Crash were here" but I was sitting at the back and I'm tiny so they didn't see my hand raised ANYWAY I wanted to ask about their casual and kind of condescending dismissal of the mapping community's gripes about process/standin being adopted partially because they were designed with "little visual noise" when they also pick maps like kong king, basically I wanted to ask, "so, uh, how do you expect mappers to make maps that you might pick up when you're giving these kind of mixed messages?" so I wasn't able to get an answer for that. maybe next year.
and they said an interesting thing about the Something Special for Someone Special or whatever, the ring, which was that the the origin of that idea was basically to answer the question, "how much would people pay for the ability to send a message to our entire tf2 community?" which I think they kind of screwed up because they gave the thing some emotional heft as well, which makes it really hard to quantify.
aaaand that's all the interesting stuff I remember. plus that bit about minisentries.
the reason I was able to go is because one of the regulars at Duck Soup works at valve, and the community was getting together for the international last august anyway, so he said any ducks who wanted to could come out to valve and meet some of the team and eat some free dinner and goof off in valve's break room for a few hours
and I went because I'm pretty active on that server (less so these days, actually) and I live in Seattle anyway, so obviously yes I'm going to go hang out at Valve for a few hours and make them feed me dinner (it was tacos, they were delicious)
I must have missed that when you talked about it or all my drinking is catching up to me. Very cool. Props for at least thinking about the mappers while you were there!
Oh and the big difference between koth_king and process/ standin is that the latter were just community maps that were picked up by Valve while the former was made specifically for Valve at their request as sort of a job application type thing (from my understanding.) They basically said "okay, make us a TF2 map with a brand new theme" and that's what they go. Not sure how that ever turned out for the guy, though.
In an intense fight as a Soldier, the supposed "hard counter" to mini sentries, I can waste a valuable shot at a small target (that is generally at an awkward shallow angle) that I'll hopefully hit accurately and maybe kill even if I do hit it. Then I have one less shot to deal with the actual fight at hand and that sentry that I took out? Oop, another one back up in the same exact spot it was just in time for me to start reloading my rocket launcher.
Huntsman is the hard counter to mini sentries. :rotate:
So if you got some sniper being a useless fuckwad with the bow, yell at him to deal with the damn things.
I'm absolutely saying they are imbalanced. Literally anything else I can handle in some way. I can flare a heavy to death in no time. Heavies also have the disadvantage of being controlled by another human. And if I kill a heavy he doesn't get rebuilt immediately. And he doesn't have perfect aim. And he might not be able to rotate fast enough for me to outstrafe him.
A normal sentry is a huge commitment but has huge payoffs if you can keep it up. A mini has almost no commitment for moderate area denial and great distraction potential. and you don't even have to worry about keeping it up because you can drop another right away.
There are a number of things you could change that would balance them I think a range reduction would be the best. Half the time I take a lot of damage from one is because they are out of range and I can barely locate it because they are tiny and still have great range.
A pyro punishes anybody that lets the player get too close. And while other players have the disadvantage of being controlled by a human, they have the advantage of prioritizing their targets. I don't know what your play strategy is, but you have to have something in your repertoire that lets you take advantage of that. No class is more dangerous to a building farm than a nearby pyro, as engies usually have a few precious seconds or an easy target to dispatch before real damage is done with any other blockbusting strategy.
And it really doesn't matter that snipers get backstabbed a lot as long as they can make crucial kills in the meantime. It's not like they have a long trek from spawn to being useful.
But the engineer isn't near his mini sentry. The pyro isn't a threat to the engi or his nest when mini sentries are in play. It's just guaranteed damage when I move into its range and a potential kill from either the sentry or the engi. Sure it can't prioritize targets but it's causing a huge split focus with zero effort and it comes right back.
I can outstrafe a level 3 sentry. But if I try that against a mini then I lose a significant portion of my health. I was gonna say that engaging a mini is less risky than engaging a level 3 but it's not actually a risk because the payoff is so low for what I put into it. It's not worth the energy put into getting rid if it but you have to get rid of it.
The payoff for either engaging or avoiding is being closer to the enemy than you were previously. If a mini-sentry is in such a wide open space that you cannot ever get past it, then it becomes a better target for you or your teammates, and will try to engage too many of your teammates at once, losing its effectiveness.
Sure, it may prevent a pyro from carrying a team. But that's one less level 3 sentry that is, in the end, a bigger resource drain on the attackers.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
I'm not going to get to into this discussion because I'm hella biased, but I feel it's important to also point out that if mini-sentries were not available there would be games where I would not be able to accomplish shit.
A real good demoman can wreck buildings without breaking a sweat, no matter how well placed and defended. When I'm up against certain people on our server (Kronus, Walrus, Roland in particular), and they decide to run Demoman I have to resign myself to playing mini or not playing engineer at all. At least mini's let me get a few shots out of the sentry before one of the crazy good demo's on the server trots through and blow it up.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
Personally, I don't think any one class should be able to tackle every situation. If you're playing spy, and there's multiple sentries overlapping one another, your sapper isn't going to accomplish dick. You're going to need an uber or some demos or some soldiers to effectively get through that. Likewise, a pyro or a scout isn't going to be as well equipped to deal with a min-sentry as some other classes.
I sometimes play a gungslinger Engie on offense, and the main way I use the mini-sentry is to stay on the move. It's disposable, so I can put it down in a nook to provide cover in a critical location, while I focus on getting the teleporter up and upgraded, making sure there's a dispenser near the front lines for others, and freeing me up to help cap/push. The biggest nuisance is still spies, because if they sap the mini sentry it's not worth it exposing myself to fire to go knock the sapper off, and I'm stuck with a useless sentry until it dies. Likewise, classes that can consistently kill the sentry in one hit, like snipers and soldiers, keep me from doing anything constructive, because I have to keep running back to find more metal.
I'm honestly perfectly fine with mini sentries in A/D maps, they can be handled just like regular sentries. It's primarily KoTH I think they are an issue. The front line rarely changes from the middle of the field, and an engineer can generally pretty easily keep a mini down at all times around that point.
I'm honestly perfectly fine with mini sentries in A/D maps, they can be handled just like regular sentries. It's primarily KoTH I think they are an issue. The front line rarely changes from the middle of the field, and an engineer can generally pretty easily keep a mini down at all times around that point.
I don't play engie on KoH as much, partly because it seems a little pointless. It's very hard to dig yourself in on those maps. A mini-sentry is at is most dangerous where you can put it down where it's hard to see, but still covers an important location. In KoH the best places to hide it are often out of the way enough that it's not as useful, while the locations where it's most useful are often the most exposed.
The big weakness of a gunslinger engie is that because he's more mobile he has to rely more on ammo pickups (which aren't always readily available). If enemies blow up your sentry as fast as it's built, then you rapidly drain your metal, and have to keep running back and forth between ammo drops and good sentry locations. At those moments, you're not contributing to the match, and you're also very vulnerable.
You're biggest advantage, however, is when enemies assume your mini-sentry is not a real threat, or are unaware of its location. You have to catch people off guard, because if they focus on keeping your sentry down and catching you as you try to replace it, then you're screwed.
I'm absolutely saying they are imbalanced. Literally anything else I can handle in some way. I can flare a heavy to death in no time. Heavies also have the disadvantage of being controlled by another human. And if I kill a heavy he doesn't get rebuilt immediately. And he doesn't have perfect aim. And he might not be able to rotate fast enough for me to outstrafe him.
A normal sentry is a huge commitment but has huge payoffs if you can keep it up. A mini has almost no commitment for moderate area denial and great distraction potential. and you don't even have to worry about keeping it up because you can drop another right away.
There are a number of things you could change that would balance them I think a range reduction would be the best. Half the time I take a lot of damage from one is because they are out of range and I can barely locate it because they are tiny and still have great range.
A pyro punishes anybody that lets the player get too close. And while other players have the disadvantage of being controlled by a human, they have the advantage of prioritizing their targets. I don't know what your play strategy is, but you have to have something in your repertoire that lets you take advantage of that. No class is more dangerous to a building farm than a nearby pyro, as engies usually have a few precious seconds or an easy target to dispatch before real damage is done with any other blockbusting strategy.
And it really doesn't matter that snipers get backstabbed a lot as long as they can make crucial kills in the meantime. It's not like they have a long trek from spawn to being useful.
But the engineer isn't near his mini sentry. The pyro isn't a threat to the engi or his nest when mini sentries are in play. It's just guaranteed damage when I move into its range and a potential kill from either the sentry or the engi. Sure it can't prioritize targets but it's causing a huge split focus with zero effort and it comes right back.
I can outstrafe a level 3 sentry. But if I try that against a mini then I lose a significant portion of my health. I was gonna say that engaging a mini is less risky than engaging a level 3 but it's not actually a risk because the payoff is so low for what I put into it. It's not worth the energy put into getting rid if it but you have to get rid of it.
The payoff for either engaging or avoiding is being closer to the enemy than you were previously. If a mini-sentry is in such a wide open space that you cannot ever get past it, then it becomes a better target for you or your teammates, and will try to engage too many of your teammates at once, losing its effectiveness.
Sure, it may prevent a pyro from carrying a team. But that's one less level 3 sentry that is, in the end, a bigger resource drain on the attackers.
I'm not saying they make it impossible to do anything. Obviously a level 3 is way better in basically every aspect. But it's a negligible investment for the engi for a huge payoff of being a huge distraction. If it is going to cost so little and build so fast, it should not be as powerful as it is. Cut it's range back so it's still effective in sneaky hiding spots, or reduce it's damage so it isn't as deadly but still creates the split focus, or reduce it's pushback so you can rush through one a little better if you can risk taking the damage, or reduce it's track speed so you can successfully strafe it without taking so much damage just to get rid of something that is going to pop right back up.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
edited March 2014
I think, if anything, the best balance for the mini-sentry would be a bit less health. Currently a direct hit from a rocket will only almost kill it. That makes it a sitting duck, but gives the engie a bit of time to get ready to replace it. Making it a bit more vulnerable requires the engie to waste more time replacing it and exposing himself to fire. I think that nerf might work a little better then making the gun cost more metal or have less firepower.
It is, after all, still supposed to be the engineer's main weapon. Making it just a nuisance to other players would seriously hamper his ability to affect play.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Heyo. I've been around on your server a bit, had some fun, decided to join up. And jump straight into the fray, as it is!
I think, if anything, the best balance for the mini-sentry would be a bit less health. Currently a direct hit from a rocket will only almost kill it. That makes it a sitting duck, but gives the engie a bit of time to get ready to replace it. Making it a bit more vulnerable requires the engie to waste more time replacing it and exposing himself to fire. I think that nerf might work a little better then making the gun cost more metal or have less firepower.
Now, that's a terrible idea, not from the Engineer's standpoint--but from the Soldier's standpoint. That's not a minor mini-sentry nerf, that's a massive Direct Hit nerf. If there's one thing that'll get people reliably equipping the DR over the stock, it's its ability to one-shot minis--it's certainly the reason I've switched over to maining DR. And with how the stock is better in pretty much every way (save airshotting), taking away this one advantage would render the DR completely inferior--you know, like the Liberty Launcher. And we can't have two inferior launchers, right?
My perspective on the minisentry debate is a bit skewed, admittedly, as the moment I see them going down with regularity I switch to DR soldier, so they've not really been a problem. And when I'm playing as gunslinger engie, I don't do what everyone characterizes that style as (throw down mini, back up for metal, throw down new mini)--I actually use the gunslinger purely for the health bonus, so I can go about and widowmaker people more effectively. I only throw down minis as a 'hey, I can, so why not?' thing, or to keep the pyro who's rushing me down from immediately killing me (as they'll invariably focus on the building mini, letting me unload a free pistol clip into them).
So, yeah. A bit irritating, yes, but as long as you've got one person willing to go DR Solly or Huntsman Sniper... rarely that much of an issue.
(also hi I can't wait to play with you guys more)
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
The Direct Hit is also pretty useful for concentrated damage against slow or stationary targets like heavies, other soldiers, and engineer nests.
minisentries are annoying, and for a couple of classes, difficult to deal with.
minisentries also serve as a fairly strong counter to scouts.
scouts, while highly variable depending on individual skill, can be absolute bullshit if they're good enough. especially for some of the same classes that have a tough time against minisentries.
I'll take the minisentries.
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
Also firing blindly and being impressed by your luck SKILL when you one shot a scout by accident WITH YOUR SWEET PREDICTIONS!
I'm absolutely saying they are imbalanced. Literally anything else I can handle in some way. I can flare a heavy to death in no time. Heavies also have the disadvantage of being controlled by another human. And if I kill a heavy he doesn't get rebuilt immediately. And he doesn't have perfect aim. And he might not be able to rotate fast enough for me to outstrafe him.
A normal sentry is a huge commitment but has huge payoffs if you can keep it up. A mini has almost no commitment for moderate area denial and great distraction potential. and you don't even have to worry about keeping it up because you can drop another right away.
There are a number of things you could change that would balance them I think a range reduction would be the best. Half the time I take a lot of damage from one is because they are out of range and I can barely locate it because they are tiny and still have great range.
A pyro punishes anybody that lets the player get too close. And while other players have the disadvantage of being controlled by a human, they have the advantage of prioritizing their targets. I don't know what your play strategy is, but you have to have something in your repertoire that lets you take advantage of that. No class is more dangerous to a building farm than a nearby pyro, as engies usually have a few precious seconds or an easy target to dispatch before real damage is done with any other blockbusting strategy.
And it really doesn't matter that snipers get backstabbed a lot as long as they can make crucial kills in the meantime. It's not like they have a long trek from spawn to being useful.
But the engineer isn't near his mini sentry. The pyro isn't a threat to the engi or his nest when mini sentries are in play. It's just guaranteed damage when I move into its range and a potential kill from either the sentry or the engi. Sure it can't prioritize targets but it's causing a huge split focus with zero effort and it comes right back.
I can outstrafe a level 3 sentry. But if I try that against a mini then I lose a significant portion of my health. I was gonna say that engaging a mini is less risky than engaging a level 3 but it's not actually a risk because the payoff is so low for what I put into it. It's not worth the energy put into getting rid if it but you have to get rid of it.
The payoff for either engaging or avoiding is being closer to the enemy than you were previously. If a mini-sentry is in such a wide open space that you cannot ever get past it, then it becomes a better target for you or your teammates, and will try to engage too many of your teammates at once, losing its effectiveness.
Sure, it may prevent a pyro from carrying a team. But that's one less level 3 sentry that is, in the end, a bigger resource drain on the attackers.
I'm not saying they make it impossible to do anything. Obviously a level 3 is way better in basically every aspect. But it's a negligible investment for the engi for a huge payoff of being a huge distraction. If it is going to cost so little and build so fast, it should not be as powerful as it is. Cut it's range back so it's still effective in sneaky hiding spots, or reduce it's damage so it isn't as deadly but still creates the split focus, or reduce it's pushback so you can rush through one a little better if you can risk taking the damage, or reduce it's track speed so you can successfully strafe it without taking so much damage just to get rid of something that is going to pop right back up.
What concretely do you want to be able to do to an engi that you can't do now with the current setup? If it's just manipulating the stats of the mini sentry, then there should be a goal in mind, plus it still has to be markedly better than just going for a level 1 sentry and abandoning the gunslinger, which is what putting the metal reqs over 100 did.
The mini sentry fixes a lot of bad habits of engineers that only serve to extend round times, like building back a point, farming, or turtling. But the engineer is really a one-note class: if you have a strategy that can reliably defeat mini-sentry spamming, then all the engi has been reduced to is X amount of sublethal damage on the first pyro that cares. If a nerf does nothing to increase the skill involved in playing an engineer, then people will go right back to last point level 3s.
It's easy for the engineer to be a distraction, but is it so easy for the engineer to be a vanguard uber? To clear stickies? To quad kill? For some classes this is like taking breaths.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
"the minisentry is fine if you stop playing scout or pyro whenever anyone on the other team is using a gunslinger" is a bullshit argument
like, if you could fully recharge the dead ringer from 0% cloak by picking up a medium ammo pack, it'd be broken, and "the dead ringer is fine if you stop playing sniper or medic whenever anyone on the other team is using the dead ringer" wouldn't be a helpful response in that situation
minisentries are annoying, and for a couple of classes, difficult to deal with.
minisentries also serve as a fairly strong counter to scouts.
scouts, while highly variable depending on individual skill, can be absolute bullshit if they're good enough. especially for some of the same classes that have a tough time against minisentries.
I'll take the minisentries.
personally, i'd rather get killed by a scout who got into a position to kill me thanks to their own actual skill than get killed by an engineer who runs around crapping out minisentries without having to ever pay attention to where anyone on either team is in relation to said sentry
I'm absolutely saying they are imbalanced. Literally anything else I can handle in some way. I can flare a heavy to death in no time. Heavies also have the disadvantage of being controlled by another human. And if I kill a heavy he doesn't get rebuilt immediately. And he doesn't have perfect aim. And he might not be able to rotate fast enough for me to outstrafe him.
A normal sentry is a huge commitment but has huge payoffs if you can keep it up. A mini has almost no commitment for moderate area denial and great distraction potential. and you don't even have to worry about keeping it up because you can drop another right away.
There are a number of things you could change that would balance them I think a range reduction would be the best. Half the time I take a lot of damage from one is because they are out of range and I can barely locate it because they are tiny and still have great range.
A pyro punishes anybody that lets the player get too close. And while other players have the disadvantage of being controlled by a human, they have the advantage of prioritizing their targets. I don't know what your play strategy is, but you have to have something in your repertoire that lets you take advantage of that. No class is more dangerous to a building farm than a nearby pyro, as engies usually have a few precious seconds or an easy target to dispatch before real damage is done with any other blockbusting strategy.
And it really doesn't matter that snipers get backstabbed a lot as long as they can make crucial kills in the meantime. It's not like they have a long trek from spawn to being useful.
But the engineer isn't near his mini sentry. The pyro isn't a threat to the engi or his nest when mini sentries are in play. It's just guaranteed damage when I move into its range and a potential kill from either the sentry or the engi. Sure it can't prioritize targets but it's causing a huge split focus with zero effort and it comes right back.
I can outstrafe a level 3 sentry. But if I try that against a mini then I lose a significant portion of my health. I was gonna say that engaging a mini is less risky than engaging a level 3 but it's not actually a risk because the payoff is so low for what I put into it. It's not worth the energy put into getting rid if it but you have to get rid of it.
The payoff for either engaging or avoiding is being closer to the enemy than you were previously. If a mini-sentry is in such a wide open space that you cannot ever get past it, then it becomes a better target for you or your teammates, and will try to engage too many of your teammates at once, losing its effectiveness.
Sure, it may prevent a pyro from carrying a team. But that's one less level 3 sentry that is, in the end, a bigger resource drain on the attackers.
I'm not saying they make it impossible to do anything. Obviously a level 3 is way better in basically every aspect. But it's a negligible investment for the engi for a huge payoff of being a huge distraction. If it is going to cost so little and build so fast, it should not be as powerful as it is. Cut it's range back so it's still effective in sneaky hiding spots, or reduce it's damage so it isn't as deadly but still creates the split focus, or reduce it's pushback so you can rush through one a little better if you can risk taking the damage, or reduce it's track speed so you can successfully strafe it without taking so much damage just to get rid of something that is going to pop right back up.
What concretely do you want to be able to do to an engi that you can't do now with the current setup? If it's just manipulating the stats of the mini sentry, then there should be a goal in mind, plus it still has to be markedly better than just going for a level 1 sentry and abandoning the gunslinger, which is what putting the metal reqs over 100 did.
The mini sentry fixes a lot of bad habits of engineers that only serve to extend round times, like building back a point, farming, or turtling. But the engineer is really a one-note class: if you have a strategy that can reliably defeat mini-sentry spamming, then all the engi has been reduced to is X amount of sublethal damage on the first pyro that cares. If a nerf does nothing to increase the skill involved in playing an engineer, then people will go right back to last point level 3s.
It's easy for the engineer to be a distraction, but is it so easy for the engineer to be a vanguard uber? To clear stickies? To quad kill? For some classes this is like taking breaths.
I definitely don't think it should require more than 100 metal. I want it balanced, not nerfed to shit. I think what it boils down to is that I don't feel that there is a significant boon to my team for me to attempt to destroy a mini-sentry unless I am within flamethrower range of it. If it's too far, I'm just going to lose enough health to die at the next encounter or have to high tail it back to a dispenser or health pack and having another player alive is more important than a mini destroyed, especially if it is coming back up in 2 seconds which is almost guaranteed if I had to backtrack for health. If it's a level 3 or a heavy or something, I'm willing to risk killing it because either of those being gone gives my team a big boost. If I die then that sucks but I think it's worth the risk sometimes. Obviously I'm not throwing myself on level 3s every chance I get but if I can get close and have space to move then I could take it out and that's a big deal. I don't want it to suck I just want it to be worth the effort to get rid of. If it's only helping a tiny bit to get rid of it then I shouldn't have to radically alter my strategy to do so.
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
minisentries are annoying, and for a couple of classes, difficult to deal with.
minisentries also serve as a fairly strong counter to scouts.
scouts, while highly variable depending on individual skill, can be absolute bullshit if they're good enough. especially for some of the same classes that have a tough time against minisentries.
I'll take the minisentries.
personally, i'd rather get killed by a scout who got into a position to kill me thanks to their own actual skill than get killed by an engineer who runs around crapping out minisentries without having to ever pay attention to where anyone on either team is in relation to said sentry
Except, you know, you do actually have to pay attention to where your team is
and where the other team is likely to go
and how much of the area the mini can cover
and whether the place you put it at can be edged easily
and whether the mini will have enough time to deal damage to make it a decent deterrent
and how easy/hard it will be to replace it WHEN it dies
and when it's time to let a spot go and find a better place to surprise people from
Not to mention keeping teleporters up and placed correctly, keeping your dispenser close enough to the front line to be useful but not close enough to get destroyed right away, and babysitting all of these probably rather spread out building so the don't get exploded by the GODDAMN FRENCH
All while having nothing but what, for any other class, would be two secondary weapons to fall back on if my low HP, unmoving gun gets blown up.
Being good at engineer is not just "running around farting out sentries". You have to know maps in and out, know where to expect attacks from, where the best places to build are, constantly be on the lookout for invisible insta killing dicks and be able to tell when it is safe to move up or when you need to fall back BEFORE anyone else because you need to get all your shit set up again.
Being good at engineer is hard as shit. Just because it doesn't involve jumping around in the middle of a firefight like a crazy person doesn't mean it's easy.
Except, you know, you do actually have to pay attention to where your team is
and where the other team is likely to go
and how much of the area the mini can cover
and whether the place you put it at can be edged easily
and whether the mini will have enough time to deal damage to make it a decent deterrent
and how easy/hard it will be to replace it WHEN it dies
and when it's time to let a spot go and find a better place to surprise people from
Being good at engineer is not just "running around farting out sentries". You have to know maps in and out, know where to expect attacks from, where the best places to build are, constantly be on the lookout for invisible insta killing dicks and be able to tell when it is safe to move up or when you need to fall back BEFORE anyone else because you need to get all your shit set up again.
I think the strife here lies in the fact that most of these things are something every other class has to do on the fly at all times regarding themselves and their own weapons, all the while trying to shoot other players. It's a bit frustrating to be doing all of this and be constantly harassed by someone who appears to be standing around waiting to "fart" out another one, which is a pretty common occurrence, from my experiences.
Like I said though, I'm primarily basing this bias off of KOTH frustrations. I very commonly see Engineers standing around their little mini sentry nest on Trainsawlaser waiting to drop another down the second it drops.
Honestly that sort of makes me think I have too much metal on the map though. I might have to nerf that a bit.
Then again, you see similar things on maps like Viaduct as well.
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
That really is just a problem with KOTH as a whole. The fighting on a KOTH map is always in the same place, therefore, you never need to move your buildings around. Most KOTH maps also don't have a good way to flank around an entrenched group. Trainsawlaser really only has the underwater paths for example. Viaduct you HAVE to go across the point, so a sentry covering it will get a chance to shoot at everyone.
I think the strife here lies in the fact that most of these things are something every other class has to do on the fly at all times regarding themselves and their own weapons, all the while trying to shoot other players. It's a bit frustrating to be doing all of this and be constantly harassed by someone who appears to be standing around waiting to "fart" out another one, which is a pretty common occurrence, from my experiences.
That's the thing. Appears to be just standing around. A good engi needs to constantly be checking for threats to his buildings, and if possible, fighting face to face with the other team. If all he's doing is standing around dropping mini's every time they die, he might be annoying but he's also not really being helpful.
Yeah but you have to admit that these are things every other player is doing on the field (replace buildings with own ass), except one class is hanging out in a generally stationary area... well two if you count snipers who play like that as well. I will fully admit I don't often play Engineer, but the times I do it feels rather low skill* compared to other classes. I think I just prefer more twitch based competition in my FPS's or something along those lines.
Black holes of fun sucking!
Why am I arguing about mini sentries at 3 in the morning? God dammit.
*I don't mean this in an offensive way, I commend a good Engineer where it's applicable (most modes). It just always seems so boring to me.
I'm absolutely saying they are imbalanced. Literally anything else I can handle in some way. I can flare a heavy to death in no time. Heavies also have the disadvantage of being controlled by another human. And if I kill a heavy he doesn't get rebuilt immediately. And he doesn't have perfect aim. And he might not be able to rotate fast enough for me to outstrafe him.
A normal sentry is a huge commitment but has huge payoffs if you can keep it up. A mini has almost no commitment for moderate area denial and great distraction potential. and you don't even have to worry about keeping it up because you can drop another right away.
There are a number of things you could change that would balance them I think a range reduction would be the best. Half the time I take a lot of damage from one is because they are out of range and I can barely locate it because they are tiny and still have great range.
A pyro punishes anybody that lets the player get too close. And while other players have the disadvantage of being controlled by a human, they have the advantage of prioritizing their targets. I don't know what your play strategy is, but you have to have something in your repertoire that lets you take advantage of that. No class is more dangerous to a building farm than a nearby pyro, as engies usually have a few precious seconds or an easy target to dispatch before real damage is done with any other blockbusting strategy.
And it really doesn't matter that snipers get backstabbed a lot as long as they can make crucial kills in the meantime. It's not like they have a long trek from spawn to being useful.
But the engineer isn't near his mini sentry. The pyro isn't a threat to the engi or his nest when mini sentries are in play. It's just guaranteed damage when I move into its range and a potential kill from either the sentry or the engi. Sure it can't prioritize targets but it's causing a huge split focus with zero effort and it comes right back.
I can outstrafe a level 3 sentry. But if I try that against a mini then I lose a significant portion of my health. I was gonna say that engaging a mini is less risky than engaging a level 3 but it's not actually a risk because the payoff is so low for what I put into it. It's not worth the energy put into getting rid if it but you have to get rid of it.
The payoff for either engaging or avoiding is being closer to the enemy than you were previously. If a mini-sentry is in such a wide open space that you cannot ever get past it, then it becomes a better target for you or your teammates, and will try to engage too many of your teammates at once, losing its effectiveness.
Sure, it may prevent a pyro from carrying a team. But that's one less level 3 sentry that is, in the end, a bigger resource drain on the attackers.
I'm not saying they make it impossible to do anything. Obviously a level 3 is way better in basically every aspect. But it's a negligible investment for the engi for a huge payoff of being a huge distraction. If it is going to cost so little and build so fast, it should not be as powerful as it is. Cut it's range back so it's still effective in sneaky hiding spots, or reduce it's damage so it isn't as deadly but still creates the split focus, or reduce it's pushback so you can rush through one a little better if you can risk taking the damage, or reduce it's track speed so you can successfully strafe it without taking so much damage just to get rid of something that is going to pop right back up.
What concretely do you want to be able to do to an engi that you can't do now with the current setup? If it's just manipulating the stats of the mini sentry, then there should be a goal in mind, plus it still has to be markedly better than just going for a level 1 sentry and abandoning the gunslinger, which is what putting the metal reqs over 100 did.
The mini sentry fixes a lot of bad habits of engineers that only serve to extend round times, like building back a point, farming, or turtling. But the engineer is really a one-note class: if you have a strategy that can reliably defeat mini-sentry spamming, then all the engi has been reduced to is X amount of sublethal damage on the first pyro that cares. If a nerf does nothing to increase the skill involved in playing an engineer, then people will go right back to last point level 3s.
It's easy for the engineer to be a distraction, but is it so easy for the engineer to be a vanguard uber? To clear stickies? To quad kill? For some classes this is like taking breaths.
I definitely don't think it should require more than 100 metal. I want it balanced, not nerfed to shit. I think what it boils down to is that I don't feel that there is a significant boon to my team for me to attempt to destroy a mini-sentry unless I am within flamethrower range of it. If it's too far, I'm just going to lose enough health to die at the next encounter or have to high tail it back to a dispenser or health pack and having another player alive is more important than a mini destroyed, especially if it is coming back up in 2 seconds which is almost guaranteed if I had to backtrack for health. If it's a level 3 or a heavy or something, I'm willing to risk killing it because either of those being gone gives my team a big boost. If I die then that sucks but I think it's worth the risk sometimes. Obviously I'm not throwing myself on level 3s every chance I get but if I can get close and have space to move then I could take it out and that's a big deal. I don't want it to suck I just want it to be worth the effort to get rid of. If it's only helping a tiny bit to get rid of it then I shouldn't have to radically alter my strategy to do so.
Confession: if I'm a medic or I'm not a fast moving class, I will usually only tag a dead ringer spy once and then move on. However, when I'm a spy, I can easily bait ubercharge ready heavy medic pairs all the way back to spawn for a minute or two. Sometimes I'm just not the right fit for the job.
However, this has opened my eyes as to what's wrong with gunslingers. People are attacking the sentry before they attack the engineer. This is yet another bad habit from the scourge of level 3 sentries even though the number one rule of TF2 still applies there: healers first.
Is it too hard to kill the engineer with a mini-sentry active? I'd be willing to accept a nerf if people, once adopting the "kill the engineer" strategy, find that it's way too hard to kill an engineer "just sitting there" while the mini-sentry goes to work on you. If the engineer truly doesn't need to do anything skillwise to stay alive if being directly hunted, then yes, the gunslinger should be toned down to develop the engineer's capability to co-op with his mini-sentry and not just periodically check his building status bar.
But I'd only be willing to accept this if making the engineer the priority target was the norm. Is it really so hard to kill the engineer? If you're having trouble finding the engineer, maybe environmental aptitude as an engineer skill has expressed itself. I know for sure that strategic positioning of yourself doesn't make nearly as much difference when you're wrenching a level 3. Find the engineer, kill him, and all his buildings may as well be dead. No investment = no payoff in terms of post-death kills or wrench synergy.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
Engineer takes a very different kind of skill as compared to a lot of classes. Like think of it this way
Soldier, Demo, Scout, and Pyro are playing a twitch shooter
Medic is doing the same, just with a different goal in mind.
Heavy is also all about shooting dudes, but he's fat and slow so it's less twitch based and more weighing odds of success and when to go for it and when to hang back.
Spy is playing a stealth game with really smart (well some of the time) guards
Engineer is playing a point defense game
Every class takes different skills, and it just bums me out when people bag on the other classes as being "easy" or "low skill", not that your doing that now, but it does come up.
Sniper is playing a point-and-click adventure
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
minisentries are annoying, and for a couple of classes, difficult to deal with.
minisentries also serve as a fairly strong counter to scouts.
scouts, while highly variable depending on individual skill, can be absolute bullshit if they're good enough. especially for some of the same classes that have a tough time against minisentries.
I'll take the minisentries.
personally, i'd rather get killed by a scout who got into a position to kill me thanks to their own actual skill than get killed by an engineer who runs around crapping out minisentries without having to ever pay attention to where anyone on either team is in relation to said sentry
Except, you know, you do actually have to pay attention to where your team is
and where the other team is likely to go
and how much of the area the mini can cover
and whether the place you put it at can be edged easily
and whether the mini will have enough time to deal damage to make it a decent deterrent
and how easy/hard it will be to replace it WHEN it dies
and when it's time to let a spot go and find a better place to surprise people from
Not to mention keeping teleporters up and placed correctly, keeping your dispenser close enough to the front line to be useful but not close enough to get destroyed right away, and babysitting all of these probably rather spread out building so the don't get exploded by the GODDAMN FRENCH
All while having nothing but what, for any other class, would be two secondary weapons to fall back on if my low HP, unmoving gun gets blown up.
Being good at engineer is not just "running around farting out sentries". You have to know maps in and out, know where to expect attacks from, where the best places to build are, constantly be on the lookout for invisible insta killing dicks and be able to tell when it is safe to move up or when you need to fall back BEFORE anyone else because you need to get all your shit set up again.
Being good at engineer is hard as shit. Just because it doesn't involve jumping around in the middle of a firefight like a crazy person doesn't mean it's easy.
Being good at vanilla engineer and being good at minisentry engineer are two completely different things - not as different as demomen vs demoknights, but more different than almost any other class's change in functionality through loadout. Like, minisentry engineers bothering to actually build and maintain teleporters and dispensers is a thing that does happen from time to time (and their teammates always appreciate it when it does), but it's probably less common than seeing minisentry engineers running around playing pure combat engy once they've built their first and only teleporter at the start of the round. There are plenty of circumstances where the minisentry engineer is overall a more effective (if less aggressive) close-to-mid-range ambush class than the scout or pyro - especially on koth maps where it's easier for minisentries to zone those classes into irrelevance, and on offense on payload maps where they can just run around the cart dropping replacement minisentries whenever they want without having to ever worry about metal.
Sure, being good at minisentry engineer requires knowing the layout of the map, the positioning of ammo/health drops, and being aware of your condition and your surroundings, but so does being good at any other class. Except Heavy. It doesn't necessarily mean that the minimum standards of quality minisentry engy play are especially higher than any other class, or even higher than the vanilla-sentry engineer.
However, this has opened my eyes as to what's wrong with gunslingers. People are attacking the sentry before they attack the engineer. This is yet another bad habit from the scourge of level 3 sentries even though the number one rule of TF2 still applies there: healers first.
Even then, killing the engineer first is no guarantee that the mini is even going to get killed before the engy who set it up respawns. And, again, not every class is even capable of killing the engy without first getting killed by the minisentry, especially if the engy is playing smart by moving around to keep the sentry between himself and the attacker.
Automated turrets get more imbalanced with lower level play cause they're the only ones that can hit anything
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
All of the smart, reasonable things have been said already, so, y'know
fuck mini sentries.
And I like playing minisentry engineer! Just, y'know, not when half my kills feel unearned. "Hit sounds as soon as I respawn? ...Wait, I still had a sentry up? They didn't blow that up while I was dead? Huh!"
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
If an engineer is not keeping his teleporter and dispenser up and in relevant locations, he is not a good engineer, regardless whether he is running normal sentry or mini. That is an engineers most important job, and a good teleporter is crucial to the point of almost being required on some maps, like Dustbowl, Barn Blitz, or the last stage of Goldrush. The only time your sentry is more important than your other buildings is if your on RED on the last point of an A/D or payload map, and that's only because your team isn't going far enough away from spawn anymore for the other buildings to matter as much.
If we're judging a weapons worth based on the worst possible players that use it, we might as well just delete the sniper class from the game.
Also, you absolutely have to be aware of your status and position as Heavy, because unlike most any other class, you can't run away. A good heavy knows when to commit and when to hang back and hold ground for the rest of his team.
Mostly I just hate playing with players who seem incapable of SEEING mini sentries.
But my solution to that is usually to roll Heavy and then spawn camp the shit out of the Engineer who thought it was a good idea to be a minisentry Engineer until they DC or change classes.
Works pretty good most of the time.
I don't generally have to worry about it much on Honc.
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
edited March 2014
Also, for that matter, I never said mini sentry engineer is harder than other classes. But it does take a similar amount of skill, which your previous post implied it didn't.
All of the smart, reasonable things have been said already, so, y'know
fuck mini sentries.
And I like playing minisentry engineer! Just, y'know, not when half my kills feel unearned. "Hit sounds as soon as I respawn? ...Wait, I still had a sentry up? They didn't blow that up while I was dead? Huh!"
That's usually a sign for me to switch to jag and place a level 3 around the first corner from their spawn
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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The limited effective angle is also part of my idea for a reverse knockback sentry
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it at the time!
so, there wasn't a whole lot they talked about, balance-wise, but that one issue did come up
because it was with the economist and two...programmers, I think, it was mostly stuff regarding that, and general questions about what it's like to work at valve
also I missed like the first ten or twenty minutes because I am always late to everything everywhere (it wasn't my fault that time, the bus was fucked up)
another thing that came up was basically a comparison of valve's support for the competitive communities in DOTA 2 and TF2 and how there's a bit of a disparity between them
the dude who asked about this is a jackass who plays on my regular server, one of those shitheads who only cares about competitive play, complains about everything, hates every gametype besides 5cp, basically is just every stereotype of that particular community rolled into one
and valve's response was, basically, "well uh all we did for DOTA 2 and the international was help what was already going to happen without us. and, yeah, we know that UGC is important, and we like what they do, but the truth is that the competitive community is playing a very specific subset of TF2 that most people are simply not interested in. I mean, every time we release a new weapon, the first thing they do is ban it, whereas everyone else says 'let's go and have fun with this.' the TF2 competitive scene is basically just not in touch with what the community as a whole wants out of the game."
to which I yelled "MORE HATS"
I also reallllly wish I had been able to ask one question in particular, because the subject of maps came up, and I was like, "Oh man I wish Crash were here" but I was sitting at the back and I'm tiny so they didn't see my hand raised ANYWAY I wanted to ask about their casual and kind of condescending dismissal of the mapping community's gripes about process/standin being adopted partially because they were designed with "little visual noise" when they also pick maps like kong king, basically I wanted to ask, "so, uh, how do you expect mappers to make maps that you might pick up when you're giving these kind of mixed messages?" so I wasn't able to get an answer for that. maybe next year.
and they said an interesting thing about the Something Special for Someone Special or whatever, the ring, which was that the the origin of that idea was basically to answer the question, "how much would people pay for the ability to send a message to our entire tf2 community?" which I think they kind of screwed up because they gave the thing some emotional heft as well, which makes it really hard to quantify.
aaaand that's all the interesting stuff I remember. plus that bit about minisentries.
the reason I was able to go is because one of the regulars at Duck Soup works at valve, and the community was getting together for the international last august anyway, so he said any ducks who wanted to could come out to valve and meet some of the team and eat some free dinner and goof off in valve's break room for a few hours
and I went because I'm pretty active on that server (less so these days, actually) and I live in Seattle anyway, so obviously yes I'm going to go hang out at Valve for a few hours and make them feed me dinner (it was tacos, they were delicious)
Nobody else does.
Precisely. To me, mini-sentries are free points.
The payoff for either engaging or avoiding is being closer to the enemy than you were previously. If a mini-sentry is in such a wide open space that you cannot ever get past it, then it becomes a better target for you or your teammates, and will try to engage too many of your teammates at once, losing its effectiveness.
Sure, it may prevent a pyro from carrying a team. But that's one less level 3 sentry that is, in the end, a bigger resource drain on the attackers.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
A real good demoman can wreck buildings without breaking a sweat, no matter how well placed and defended. When I'm up against certain people on our server (Kronus, Walrus, Roland in particular), and they decide to run Demoman I have to resign myself to playing mini or not playing engineer at all. At least mini's let me get a few shots out of the sentry before one of the crazy good demo's on the server trots through and blow it up.
I sometimes play a gungslinger Engie on offense, and the main way I use the mini-sentry is to stay on the move. It's disposable, so I can put it down in a nook to provide cover in a critical location, while I focus on getting the teleporter up and upgraded, making sure there's a dispenser near the front lines for others, and freeing me up to help cap/push. The biggest nuisance is still spies, because if they sap the mini sentry it's not worth it exposing myself to fire to go knock the sapper off, and I'm stuck with a useless sentry until it dies. Likewise, classes that can consistently kill the sentry in one hit, like snipers and soldiers, keep me from doing anything constructive, because I have to keep running back to find more metal.
Exception for building a sentry to keep dicks from spawn camping though.
I don't play engie on KoH as much, partly because it seems a little pointless. It's very hard to dig yourself in on those maps. A mini-sentry is at is most dangerous where you can put it down where it's hard to see, but still covers an important location. In KoH the best places to hide it are often out of the way enough that it's not as useful, while the locations where it's most useful are often the most exposed.
The big weakness of a gunslinger engie is that because he's more mobile he has to rely more on ammo pickups (which aren't always readily available). If enemies blow up your sentry as fast as it's built, then you rapidly drain your metal, and have to keep running back and forth between ammo drops and good sentry locations. At those moments, you're not contributing to the match, and you're also very vulnerable.
You're biggest advantage, however, is when enemies assume your mini-sentry is not a real threat, or are unaware of its location. You have to catch people off guard, because if they focus on keeping your sentry down and catching you as you try to replace it, then you're screwed.
I'm not saying they make it impossible to do anything. Obviously a level 3 is way better in basically every aspect. But it's a negligible investment for the engi for a huge payoff of being a huge distraction. If it is going to cost so little and build so fast, it should not be as powerful as it is. Cut it's range back so it's still effective in sneaky hiding spots, or reduce it's damage so it isn't as deadly but still creates the split focus, or reduce it's pushback so you can rush through one a little better if you can risk taking the damage, or reduce it's track speed so you can successfully strafe it without taking so much damage just to get rid of something that is going to pop right back up.
It is, after all, still supposed to be the engineer's main weapon. Making it just a nuisance to other players would seriously hamper his ability to affect play.
Now, that's a terrible idea, not from the Engineer's standpoint--but from the Soldier's standpoint. That's not a minor mini-sentry nerf, that's a massive Direct Hit nerf. If there's one thing that'll get people reliably equipping the DR over the stock, it's its ability to one-shot minis--it's certainly the reason I've switched over to maining DR. And with how the stock is better in pretty much every way (save airshotting), taking away this one advantage would render the DR completely inferior--you know, like the Liberty Launcher. And we can't have two inferior launchers, right?
My perspective on the minisentry debate is a bit skewed, admittedly, as the moment I see them going down with regularity I switch to DR soldier, so they've not really been a problem. And when I'm playing as gunslinger engie, I don't do what everyone characterizes that style as (throw down mini, back up for metal, throw down new mini)--I actually use the gunslinger purely for the health bonus, so I can go about and widowmaker people more effectively. I only throw down minis as a 'hey, I can, so why not?' thing, or to keep the pyro who's rushing me down from immediately killing me (as they'll invariably focus on the building mini, letting me unload a free pistol clip into them).
So, yeah. A bit irritating, yes, but as long as you've got one person willing to go DR Solly or Huntsman Sniper... rarely that much of an issue.
(also hi I can't wait to play with you guys more)
I like you.
minisentries also serve as a fairly strong counter to scouts.
scouts, while highly variable depending on individual skill, can be absolute bullshit if they're good enough. especially for some of the same classes that have a tough time against minisentries.
I'll take the minisentries.
What concretely do you want to be able to do to an engi that you can't do now with the current setup? If it's just manipulating the stats of the mini sentry, then there should be a goal in mind, plus it still has to be markedly better than just going for a level 1 sentry and abandoning the gunslinger, which is what putting the metal reqs over 100 did.
The mini sentry fixes a lot of bad habits of engineers that only serve to extend round times, like building back a point, farming, or turtling. But the engineer is really a one-note class: if you have a strategy that can reliably defeat mini-sentry spamming, then all the engi has been reduced to is X amount of sublethal damage on the first pyro that cares. If a nerf does nothing to increase the skill involved in playing an engineer, then people will go right back to last point level 3s.
It's easy for the engineer to be a distraction, but is it so easy for the engineer to be a vanguard uber? To clear stickies? To quad kill? For some classes this is like taking breaths.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
now
like, if you could fully recharge the dead ringer from 0% cloak by picking up a medium ammo pack, it'd be broken, and "the dead ringer is fine if you stop playing sniper or medic whenever anyone on the other team is using the dead ringer" wouldn't be a helpful response in that situation
personally, i'd rather get killed by a scout who got into a position to kill me thanks to their own actual skill than get killed by an engineer who runs around crapping out minisentries without having to ever pay attention to where anyone on either team is in relation to said sentry
I definitely don't think it should require more than 100 metal. I want it balanced, not nerfed to shit. I think what it boils down to is that I don't feel that there is a significant boon to my team for me to attempt to destroy a mini-sentry unless I am within flamethrower range of it. If it's too far, I'm just going to lose enough health to die at the next encounter or have to high tail it back to a dispenser or health pack and having another player alive is more important than a mini destroyed, especially if it is coming back up in 2 seconds which is almost guaranteed if I had to backtrack for health. If it's a level 3 or a heavy or something, I'm willing to risk killing it because either of those being gone gives my team a big boost. If I die then that sucks but I think it's worth the risk sometimes. Obviously I'm not throwing myself on level 3s every chance I get but if I can get close and have space to move then I could take it out and that's a big deal. I don't want it to suck I just want it to be worth the effort to get rid of. If it's only helping a tiny bit to get rid of it then I shouldn't have to radically alter my strategy to do so.
Except, you know, you do actually have to pay attention to where your team is
and where the other team is likely to go
and how much of the area the mini can cover
and whether the place you put it at can be edged easily
and whether the mini will have enough time to deal damage to make it a decent deterrent
and how easy/hard it will be to replace it WHEN it dies
and when it's time to let a spot go and find a better place to surprise people from
Not to mention keeping teleporters up and placed correctly, keeping your dispenser close enough to the front line to be useful but not close enough to get destroyed right away, and babysitting all of these probably rather spread out building so the don't get exploded by the GODDAMN FRENCH
All while having nothing but what, for any other class, would be two secondary weapons to fall back on if my low HP, unmoving gun gets blown up.
Being good at engineer is not just "running around farting out sentries". You have to know maps in and out, know where to expect attacks from, where the best places to build are, constantly be on the lookout for invisible insta killing dicks and be able to tell when it is safe to move up or when you need to fall back BEFORE anyone else because you need to get all your shit set up again.
Being good at engineer is hard as shit. Just because it doesn't involve jumping around in the middle of a firefight like a crazy person doesn't mean it's easy.
I think the strife here lies in the fact that most of these things are something every other class has to do on the fly at all times regarding themselves and their own weapons, all the while trying to shoot other players. It's a bit frustrating to be doing all of this and be constantly harassed by someone who appears to be standing around waiting to "fart" out another one, which is a pretty common occurrence, from my experiences.
Like I said though, I'm primarily basing this bias off of KOTH frustrations. I very commonly see Engineers standing around their little mini sentry nest on Trainsawlaser waiting to drop another down the second it drops.
Honestly that sort of makes me think I have too much metal on the map though. I might have to nerf that a bit.
Then again, you see similar things on maps like Viaduct as well.
That's the thing. Appears to be just standing around. A good engi needs to constantly be checking for threats to his buildings, and if possible, fighting face to face with the other team. If all he's doing is standing around dropping mini's every time they die, he might be annoying but he's also not really being helpful.
Black holes of fun sucking!
Why am I arguing about mini sentries at 3 in the morning? God dammit.
*I don't mean this in an offensive way, I commend a good Engineer where it's applicable (most modes). It just always seems so boring to me.
Confession: if I'm a medic or I'm not a fast moving class, I will usually only tag a dead ringer spy once and then move on. However, when I'm a spy, I can easily bait ubercharge ready heavy medic pairs all the way back to spawn for a minute or two. Sometimes I'm just not the right fit for the job.
However, this has opened my eyes as to what's wrong with gunslingers. People are attacking the sentry before they attack the engineer. This is yet another bad habit from the scourge of level 3 sentries even though the number one rule of TF2 still applies there: healers first.
Is it too hard to kill the engineer with a mini-sentry active? I'd be willing to accept a nerf if people, once adopting the "kill the engineer" strategy, find that it's way too hard to kill an engineer "just sitting there" while the mini-sentry goes to work on you. If the engineer truly doesn't need to do anything skillwise to stay alive if being directly hunted, then yes, the gunslinger should be toned down to develop the engineer's capability to co-op with his mini-sentry and not just periodically check his building status bar.
But I'd only be willing to accept this if making the engineer the priority target was the norm. Is it really so hard to kill the engineer? If you're having trouble finding the engineer, maybe environmental aptitude as an engineer skill has expressed itself. I know for sure that strategic positioning of yourself doesn't make nearly as much difference when you're wrenching a level 3. Find the engineer, kill him, and all his buildings may as well be dead. No investment = no payoff in terms of post-death kills or wrench synergy.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Soldier, Demo, Scout, and Pyro are playing a twitch shooter
Medic is doing the same, just with a different goal in mind.
Heavy is also all about shooting dudes, but he's fat and slow so it's less twitch based and more weighing odds of success and when to go for it and when to hang back.
Spy is playing a stealth game with really smart (well some of the time) guards
Engineer is playing a point defense game
Every class takes different skills, and it just bums me out when people bag on the other classes as being "easy" or "low skill", not that your doing that now, but it does come up.
Being good at vanilla engineer and being good at minisentry engineer are two completely different things - not as different as demomen vs demoknights, but more different than almost any other class's change in functionality through loadout. Like, minisentry engineers bothering to actually build and maintain teleporters and dispensers is a thing that does happen from time to time (and their teammates always appreciate it when it does), but it's probably less common than seeing minisentry engineers running around playing pure combat engy once they've built their first and only teleporter at the start of the round. There are plenty of circumstances where the minisentry engineer is overall a more effective (if less aggressive) close-to-mid-range ambush class than the scout or pyro - especially on koth maps where it's easier for minisentries to zone those classes into irrelevance, and on offense on payload maps where they can just run around the cart dropping replacement minisentries whenever they want without having to ever worry about metal.
Sure, being good at minisentry engineer requires knowing the layout of the map, the positioning of ammo/health drops, and being aware of your condition and your surroundings, but so does being good at any other class. Except Heavy. It doesn't necessarily mean that the minimum standards of quality minisentry engy play are especially higher than any other class, or even higher than the vanilla-sentry engineer.
Even then, killing the engineer first is no guarantee that the mini is even going to get killed before the engy who set it up respawns. And, again, not every class is even capable of killing the engy without first getting killed by the minisentry, especially if the engy is playing smart by moving around to keep the sentry between himself and the attacker.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
fuck mini sentries.
the forbidden appeal of the minisentry, laid bare at last...
And I like playing minisentry engineer! Just, y'know, not when half my kills feel unearned. "Hit sounds as soon as I respawn? ...Wait, I still had a sentry up? They didn't blow that up while I was dead? Huh!"
If we're judging a weapons worth based on the worst possible players that use it, we might as well just delete the sniper class from the game.
Also, you absolutely have to be aware of your status and position as Heavy, because unlike most any other class, you can't run away. A good heavy knows when to commit and when to hang back and hold ground for the rest of his team.
But my solution to that is usually to roll Heavy and then spawn camp the shit out of the Engineer who thought it was a good idea to be a minisentry Engineer until they DC or change classes.
Works pretty good most of the time.
I don't generally have to worry about it much on Honc.
edit: speaking to gtrmp
That's usually a sign for me to switch to jag and place a level 3 around the first corner from their spawn
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.