its the same thing at a place like best buy - which has close to 100% turnover.
that means in a given year, nearly every single employee will either quit or be fired --> the latter often because they've been there too long and are being paid more than BB would like to be paying it's employees.
thats the official stat, but anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know and worked with at BB has either been fired over something relatively trivial (looking for reasons to can a person) or quit because everyone else was canned. and they get replaced with n00bs who know next to nothing, but will accept several dollars less in their hourly wage
I was just glancing over the forums before my flight and I'm glad someone mentioned Best Buy, because they have the exact counter example I thought of when I saw this thread.
In a nutshell (and I'm sure I've gotten into this before with people) bitching about how "evil/bad/stupid" a large companies choices is pointless and a waste of energy. A company doesn't (and shouldn't) care how evil you think they are as long as for the majority of society that doesn't outweigh their interest in saving money (which big business does better than little). And as much as armchair business people might like to call management stupid (and may be right at the store/region level) odds are the level of management that made this call is anything but. If you think the highest corporate officers haven't checked the math every possible way before deciding the hire-wage employees weren't worth keeping then I really don't know what to tell you.
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
A similar thing happened at a gas station I worked for (a large chain in Atlantic Canada and New England). The assistant manager had been with the company for a while and was really good at her job.
Eventually however, between annual raises and bonuses she was making more than they wanted to pay a mere assistant manager. At the same time, there were no full manager positions open to promote her into (though she would have gotten one had one been available) . . . so they got rid of her.
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Why? Best Buy's customers don't really care if Best Buy treats their employees like condoms. Because Best Buy's customers are not Best Buy's employees, and as such why would they give a shit?
Frankly, people really shouldn't consider retail as any kind of permanent job, unless it's something that's so insanely specialized that finding a replacement can't happen.
I'm not defending the actions of the company, but this is pretty much how retail -works-. You get kids who need money while they're taking classes to handle sales, or old people who are bored out of their minds but who will die soon.
I worked retail for three and a half years, while getting through my GE courses and getting my sanity back.
It was a struggle to get a 30 cent raise there after two years, and my being one of their best employees.
The problem with this is that most of the big retail chains and a large percentage of the smaller stores DO expect their employees to treat the jobs as permanent. A lot of retail jobs are really tough to get time off from, for example. When interviewing with retail companies, they often ask you how long you intend to stay with them if they hire you - heaven fucking forbid you answer anything less than "Why, forever, sir!"
I agree that this is still how they treat you once you are, in fact, hired. You're so expendable as a retail employee, you're constantly looking over your shoulder to make sure you're not being watched for every little mistake. It's a fucking nightmare.
Unfortunately, it's also the only thing a lot of people are qualified for. I've done nothing but retail work my entire life, and I haven't been able to figure out how to work my way elsewhere. It really sucks to be 25 and still applying for retail jobs, but a very large sector of the employed population is dependent on retail-level employment.
Tell me about it. I'm 27, managed to squeeze my way into an assistant manager position a year ago, and I'm fucking miserable. A nice, boring, monotonous office job spending 8 hours staring at three walls of a cubical sounds like heaven to me, but good fucking luck getting a callback for an interview when all I have on my resume is retail.
Right now I'm working two jobs to earn up some money before going back into school; theater usher and data entry. When I was looking for jobs (started December 15ish) I started with the retail stuff, because that's fast. My first day on the job was Christmas. Meanwhile I looked for office work, and got a job through the Randstad temp agency around Jan 20. The two jobs are so incredibly different. Turnover rate at the theater is the highest I've ever seen at a place I work, 3 months in and almost all the other ushers are newer than me. One old guy who barely moves or talks has been there maybe 2-3 years, a couple for 6 months, and most have been there all of a month or less. The work sucks, the pay's low, the management clearly sees employees as just an expense and potential risk (no pockets in our uniforms, we might steal something).
Data entry seriously is heaven in comparison. Sit down rather than stand for 7 hours in a row, not cleaning up peoples shit, earn twice as much on a weekly basis, a break area that doesn't consist of a bench in a locker room, etc etc. The only downside is knowing that Randstad is getting paid almost twice as much for my work as they pay me, but it still kicks the theater's ass.
So, moral of the story, sign up for a temp agency, keep applying at places, whatever, the improvement you see in a week of getting the hell out of retail beats what you'll see from 20 years of sticking with it.
And the ones who have been there longest also will know the best ways to get stuff out of the store.
Very true. The shitbirds will let people walk without even trying to close a sale. People who go look elsewhere are going to buy elsewhere.
When I worked retail, the "seniors" always had sales budgets roughly 50% greater than the new hires, and met them consistently, along with attachment goals. If you crunch the numbers, it becomes apparent that this is only even a cost-cutting move if Circuit can attract n00bs for $8/hr who can sell $60,000 a month in inventory. They were unable to get $40,000 a month from new hires making $10/hr before, so this is simply not going to fucking happen. Also, this whole model assumes that hiring people away from Micky Ds instead of away from retail competitors like Best Buy is likely to yield workers capable of attaching to sales as well as the experienced salesmen they're replacing. Again, this is simply not going to fucking happen.
So keep an eye on the papers early next year. Store closures, enough of them that there will almost certainly be one close to you. And good liquidation specials. Have a good laugh when the redshirted drone offers to have his insolvent company cover that TV you're buying with an extended warranty.
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Why? Best Buy's customers don't really care if Best Buy treats their employees like condoms. Because Best Buy's customers are not Best Buy's employees, and as such why would they give a shit?
That was exactly the point I'm making. As a customer either care enough to stop shopping at some place that treats their employees "poorly" (and note I keep using badly, evil , poorly and so on in quotes because it's by no means a given treating a low level, minimally skilled, and easily replaceable worker as such is a bad thing) and support those that treat employees "well"or shut the hell up about it. As a worker either actually MAKE yourself worth keeping on and paying more or quit complaining you are treated as you are. As a business person/economist/manager find a way to make treating employees "better" financially feasible or continue as you have been.
The idea I'm going for is empty righteous indignation is useless. No one is obligated (or judgeable for not, by any objective standard) to treat anyone else one iota better than society says they should.
You want to live in a world where a low level retail employee is treated better? Change the system to make that the best course of action for all involved instead of falling back on pointless moral chest beating. No one has, will, or shall ever care that a minority of people feel the actions of the some group are bad when the majority and every objective measure disagree.
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Why? Best Buy's customers don't really care if Best Buy treats their employees like condoms. Because Best Buy's customers are not Best Buy's employees, and as such why would they give a shit?
That was exactly the point I'm making. As a customer either care enough to stop shopping at some place that treats their employees "poorly" (and note I keep using badly, evil , poorly and so on in quotes because it's by no means a given treating a low level, minimally skilled, and easily replaceable worker as such is a bad thing) and support those that treat employees "well"or shut the hell up about it. As a worker either actually MAKE yourself worth keeping on and paying more or quit complaining you are treated as you are. As a business person/economist/manager find a way to make treating employees "better" financially feasible or continue as you have been.
The idea I'm going for is empty righteous indignation is useless. No one is obligated (or judgeable for not, by any objective standard) to treat anyone else one iota better than society says they should.
You want to live in a world where a low level retail employee is treated better? Change the system to make that the best course of action for all involved instead of falling back on pointless moral chest beating. No one has, will, or shall ever care that a minority of people feel the actions of the some group are bad when the majority and every objective measure disagree.
How do you know I'm not already working on it? Obviously it's not the sort of thing that can be done overnight.
Frankly, people really shouldn't consider retail as any kind of permanent job, unless it's something that's so insanely specialized that finding a replacement can't happen.
I'm not defending the actions of the company, but this is pretty much how retail -works-. You get kids who need money while they're taking classes to handle sales, or old people who are bored out of their minds but who will die soon.
I worked retail for three and a half years, while getting through my GE courses and getting my sanity back.
It was a struggle to get a 30 cent raise there after two years, and my being one of their best employees.
The problem with this is that most of the big retail chains and a large percentage of the smaller stores DO expect their employees to treat the jobs as permanent. A lot of retail jobs are really tough to get time off from, for example. When interviewing with retail companies, they often ask you how long you intend to stay with them if they hire you - heaven fucking forbid you answer anything less than "Why, forever, sir!"
I agree that this is still how they treat you once you are, in fact, hired. You're so expendable as a retail employee, you're constantly looking over your shoulder to make sure you're not being watched for every little mistake. It's a fucking nightmare.
Unfortunately, it's also the only thing a lot of people are qualified for. I've done nothing but retail work my entire life, and I haven't been able to figure out how to work my way elsewhere. It really sucks to be 25 and still applying for retail jobs, but a very large sector of the employed population is dependent on retail-level employment.
Tell me about it. I'm 27, managed to squeeze my way into an assistant manager position a year ago, and I'm fucking miserable. A nice, boring, monotonous office job spending 8 hours staring at three walls of a cubical sounds like heaven to me, but good fucking luck getting a callback for an interview when all I have on my resume is retail.
Right now I'm working two jobs to earn up some money before going back into school; theater usher and data entry. When I was looking for jobs (started December 15ish) I started with the retail stuff, because that's fast. My first day on the job was Christmas. Meanwhile I looked for office work, and got a job through the Randstad temp agency around Jan 20. The two jobs are so incredibly different. Turnover rate at the theater is the highest I've ever seen at a place I work, 3 months in and almost all the other ushers are newer than me. One old guy who barely moves or talks has been there maybe 2-3 years, a couple for 6 months, and most have been there all of a month or less. The work sucks, the pay's low, the management clearly sees employees as just an expense and potential risk (no pockets in our uniforms, we might steal something).
Data entry seriously is heaven in comparison. Sit down rather than stand for 7 hours in a row, not cleaning up peoples shit, earn twice as much on a weekly basis, a break area that doesn't consist of a bench in a locker room, etc etc. The only downside is knowing that Randstad is getting paid almost twice as much for my work as they pay me, but it still kicks the theater's ass.
So, moral of the story, sign up for a temp agency, keep applying at places, whatever, the improvement you see in a week of getting the hell out of retail beats what you'll see from 20 years of sticking with it.
Maybe it's just my area, but I've tried the temp agency route, and it was utterly worthless. In two months of "working" for the temp agency, I landed a grand total of two jobs that lasted all of a combined total of five days.
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Speaking of counter examples, try this one:
"The company says turnover costs - recruiting, training, and loss of operational time - are $102,000 per blue shirt, or about 250 percent of their salary."
Now, I don't know Circuit City's numbers. But if it costs even half that much firing their long term employees was a very stupid move. Not only do they have to train replacements, the replacements they do get won't last as long, meaning they'll have to deal with those costs more often.
And the ones who have been there longest also will know the best ways to get stuff out of the store.
Very true. The shitbirds will let people walk without even trying to close a sale. People who go look elsewhere are going to buy elsewhere.
Actually, I meant that the vets would know how to get stuff out that shouldn't be leaving...that is, they'll know how to steal. Once you've worked at a store for a while, it wouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out exactly how to avoid whatever security procedures are in place.
Not quite the same thing, but when I was working at a Waldenbooks, the first week there I figured out how to take anything I wanted. Not hard at all if you keep your eyes open. Sure, a plasma TV would be a bit more of a challenge, but I'm sure a CC vet could figure out how to smuggle software, DVD's, even small hardware stuff out the door without anyone noticing.
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help? Gabe and Tycho have done at least a couple posts and comics about the precision with which they enter a retail establishment to purchase an exact item at an exact price, all already known to them ahead of time.
I know I'm the same way. By the time I actually get into the store, especially a store like Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-mart or whatever, I know exactly what I want, exactly why I want it, and exactly how much it is. The clerk can offer me whatever the latest in-store promotin might be, but other than that, I'd prefer they all leave me the fuck alone and let me self-checkout.
Gone are the days when the typical consumer walked into a store and thought, "I want a [computer game | TV | watch | whatever], but which one? What are the differences? What sales are going on?" All of this can be figured out at home, faster, more accurately, and in more detail. Unless you're some old fart, in which case you're set in your ways and are likely to buy at the same store you've shopped at for 20 years regardless.
Commissioned retail sales or expert on-site staff are nothing more than a waste of money that shoppers don't want and only keeps the price higher than it needs to be.
I can promise you this isn't about evil bastards fucking people over. It almost never is. It's about all of us fucking people over in the process of progress.
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help? Gabe and Tycho have done at least a couple posts and comics about the precision with which they enter a retail establishment to purchase an exact item at an exact price, all already known to them ahead of time.
Not everybody is comfortable using the Internet to do research. Plenty of people still expect help from sales staff. There are a lot of small independent shops who have found their niche giving quality service and support for higher-markup items.
Besides, big box retail chains using trained monkeys to do sales is nothing new. If anything, quality information on the Internet has risen up because big box chains typically give subpar service.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help? Gabe and Tycho have done at least a couple posts and comics about the precision with which they enter a retail establishment to purchase an exact item at an exact price, all already known to them ahead of time.
I know I'm the same way. By the time I actually get into the store, especially a store like Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-mart or whatever, I know exactly what I want, exactly why I want it, and exactly how much it is. The clerk can offer me whatever the latest in-store promotin might be, but other than that, I'd prefer they all leave me the fuck alone and let me self-checkout.
Gone are the days when the typical consumer walked into a store and thought, "I want a [computer game | TV | watch | whatever], but which one? What are the differences? What sales are going on?" All of this can be figured out at home, faster, more accurately, and in more detail. Unless you're some old fart, in which case you're set in your ways and are likely to buy at the same store you've shopped at for 20 years regardless.
Commissioned retail sales or expert on-site staff are nothing more than a waste of money that shoppers don't want and only keeps the price higher than it needs to be.
I can promise you this isn't about evil bastards fucking people over. It almost never is. It's about all of us fucking people over in the process of progress.
Entirely anecdotal. Even though I consider myself a pretty "informed" consumer - I know exactly what I want and where to find it - there are still plenty of instances where I go into a store and need help or just basic fucking courtesy. Most of the large problems with tactics like this are that they fuck over morale more than anything else. You may think that on-site staff don't need to know as much as they used to, which is your opinion, but they still have to treat people like decent human beings to keep their customer base happy. Guess what? Firing a bunch of people doesn't really help keep the morale high. Guess what else? That usually leads to customers being treated poorly.
Progress my ass. You want to talk about these things as if they're the natural reflection of people becoming more informed and being better consumers, but it just isn't true. You may feel like you're the pinnacle of the informed shopper, but just because you are doesn't mean that everyone else is.
EDIT: I'm going to add something quick. My most recent retail experience was in a bike store. I don't care how fucking informed you think you are, you're never going to be more informed than I am about bicycles. None of my customers are. No matter how many Google searches they run and no matter how many times they pat themselves on the back for researching their purchases, there's going to be shit that they just don't know. Shit that they will ask me, and I will be able to answer for them. You act like retail employees don't serve a purpose, but only because you think you're such a hot shit smarty pants consumer. You're wrong.
Whiniest Man On Earth on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
Kmart did this a year or so ago when they were still in the black before the Sears merger. The long-term full timers got dropped, and they hired a bunch of part timers instead.
Considering that, this isn't surprising at all. The funnier thing is, they get surprised when they see bad scores on their mystery shops because new employees don't care, and suck at product presentation.
It'll come back to bite them eventually, but they won't care. (Retail is still a much, much easier job than working in the restaurant industry. Anyone who's done both knows this.)
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help? Gabe and Tycho have done at least a couple posts and comics about the precision with which they enter a retail establishment to purchase an exact item at an exact price, all already known to them ahead of time.
Besides, big box retail chains using trained monkeys to do sales is nothing new. If anything, quality information on the Internet has risen up because big box chains typically give subpar service.
Exactly. In fact, some of these same PA strips Yar refers to are jabs at how clueless a lot of these clerks are. It's the combination of uninformed staff and corporate BS like pushing magazine subscriptions that makes savvy shoppers want to just get in and get out.
I'm personally curious at how much the CEOs are getting paid. I'm sick and tired of the little guy getting shafted so the CEO who put the company into the red can get a multi hundred million dollar severance package w/ stock options.
Seriously, I'd recommend for some of you to go online to your state website and look around at state jobs. Even if its just seasonal or temp work, once you got your foot in the door, its that much easier to get inside.
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help? Gabe and Tycho have done at least a couple posts and comics about the precision with which they enter a retail establishment to purchase an exact item at an exact price, all already known to them ahead of time.
I know I'm the same way. By the time I actually get into the store, especially a store like Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-mart or whatever, I know exactly what I want, exactly why I want it, and exactly how much it is. The clerk can offer me whatever the latest in-store promotin might be, but other than that, I'd prefer they all leave me the fuck alone and let me self-checkout.
Gone are the days when the typical consumer walked into a store and thought, "I want a [computer game | TV | watch | whatever], but which one? What are the differences? What sales are going on?" All of this can be figured out at home, faster, more accurately, and in more detail. Unless you're some old fart, in which case you're set in your ways and are likely to buy at the same store you've shopped at for 20 years regardless.
Commissioned retail sales or expert on-site staff are nothing more than a waste of money that shoppers don't want and only keeps the price higher than it needs to be.
I can promise you this isn't about evil bastards fucking people over. It almost never is. It's about all of us fucking people over in the process of progress.
this is not as true for everyone as it is for "us". I work retail (radioshack) and there are plenty of people who have no clue as to prices, or if we carry what they want. And these are not just old people.
I wonder if the company is going to take into account that high turnover rates correlate to significantly higher rates of shrinkage. Also these employees are sure to be disgruntled and will take some sort of extra compensation.
I wonder if they know that treating your employees like shit tends to have a strong, negative impact on customer-service.
Silly VC, no big retail chains recognize this.
Starbucks.
Eh, I don't think Starbucks is a good example because of the addictive nature of their products. I mean, personally I don't go there because they have good customer service. I go there because they have good coffee.
Shit that they will ask me, and I will be able to answer for them. You act like retail employees don't serve a purpose, but only because you think you're such a hot shit smarty pants consumer. You're wrong.
Cute, but you worked at a specialty business, not at a big box store or even Circuit City. I'm pretty sure Yar wouldn't need your expertise if it were in blenders, computer speakers, plasma televisions, or video games. I'm not convinced that the consumer who picks his target online is the majority at the present time, either, but wow, chill. At least his anecdote was pertinent.
Shit that they will ask me, and I will be able to answer for them. You act like retail employees don't serve a purpose, but only because you think you're such a hot shit smarty pants consumer. You're wrong.
Cute, but you worked at a specialty business, not at a big box store or even Circuit City. I'm pretty sure Yar wouldn't need your expertise if it were in blenders, computer speakers, plasma televisions, or video games. I'm not convinced that the consumer who picks his target online is the majority at the present time, either, but wow, chill. At least his anecdote was pertinent.
I'm sorry, but the mentality that somebody who does a day's worth of Google searches and Amazon.com review-reading is somehow more informed than an experienced retail employee who deals day in and day out with the same product (regardless of what it is) is utterly laughable. Yes, PA is full of examples of the Gamestop register monkeys who can't tell Dreamcasts from ducks without thumbs, but we're talking about a company laying off it's most seasoned and trained employees here specifically to hire more idiots like that.
Layoffs like this are the reason shit like that happens, not the other way around.
Gone are the days when the typical consumer walked into a store and thought, "I want a [computer game | TV | watch | whatever], but which one? What are the differences? What sales are going on?" All of this can be figured out at home, faster, more accurately, and in more detail. Unless you're some old fart, in which case you're set in your ways and are likely to buy at the same store you've shopped at for 20 years regardless.
This is the part I take issue with. Those days aren't gone just because a small segment of the population is making more informed consumer choices than ever before, and they're certainly not gone just because he says so. I also think I made a pretty good point as to why courtesy is just as important to retail as product knowledge - and why these kinds of firings are bad for morale and consequently courtesy.
I wonder if the company is going to take into account that high turnover rates correlate to significantly higher rates of shrinkage. Also these employees are sure to be disgruntled and will take some sort of extra compensation.
I wonder if they know that treating your employees like shit tends to have a strong, negative impact on customer-service.
Silly VC, no big retail chains recognize this.
Starbucks.
Eh, I don't think Starbucks is a good example because of the addictive nature of their products. I mean, personally I don't go there because they have good customer service. I go there because they have good coffee.
Because they have good coffee or because you're addicted to Starbucks? And you know, for how successful the company has been since stores started popping up everywhere, it seems kind of silly to write off the effectiveness of their business-plan entirely.
Eh, I don't think Starbucks is a good example because of the addictive nature of their products. I mean, personally I don't go there because they have good customer service. I go there because they have good coffee.
What?
They have bad coffee. Nobody is addicted to their specific coffee unless people can be addicted to charcoal.
That's why they sell 90 thousand different things that aren't coffee, and their coffee drinks are all about hiding the taste of the bad coffee. All the prestige of coffee, with five times the sugar and chocolate and whipped cream and jimmies and maybe sometimes some coffee too.
They're just masterful at marketing their crap and creating the culture around it.
Man, what? I work at Starbucks, as such I've tried a fair amount of coffee in my time. You're just violently wrong. If you don't like it, fine, but to say the product is "sub-par by far" is a little extreme.
And to add to the thread, Starbucks does treat it's employees pretty well. It's still retail, but at least it's not painful to work there.
IloroKamou on
"There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts."
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Why? Best Buy's customers don't really care if Best Buy treats their employees like condoms. Because Best Buy's customers are not Best Buy's employees, and as such why would they give a shit?
That was exactly the point I'm making. As a customer either care enough to stop shopping at some place that treats their employees "poorly" (and note I keep using badly, evil , poorly and so on in quotes because it's by no means a given treating a low level, minimally skilled, and easily replaceable worker as such is a bad thing) and support those that treat employees "well"or shut the hell up about it. As a worker either actually MAKE yourself worth keeping on and paying more or quit complaining you are treated as you are. As a business person/economist/manager find a way to make treating employees "better" financially feasible or continue as you have been.
The idea I'm going for is empty righteous indignation is useless. No one is obligated (or judgeable for not, by any objective standard) to treat anyone else one iota better than society says they should.
You want to live in a world where a low level retail employee is treated better? Change the system to make that the best course of action for all involved instead of falling back on pointless moral chest beating. No one has, will, or shall ever care that a minority of people feel the actions of the some group are bad when the majority and every objective measure disagree.
How do you know I'm not already working on it? Obviously it's not the sort of thing that can be done overnight.
I work for Best Buy. I've worked there for about 5 months now. I work hard and have a good attitude. And its noticed, at my three month review I got a 30 cent raise, and I'm getting another raise in the next few weeks at my six month review and I am being considered for supervisor, chances are I'm not going to get it due to another guy who's also a hard worker and (truthfully) more qualified than I am. But you can make retail a career if you want to. Just take your job seriously, if you just show up every day and grind you're going to grind. If you show up at work and ask your boss what can I do to get your job?(maybe not in those words). And follow what they say and improve upon them you do well. And even if you don't want retail as a career it can get you to meet the right people to get into the career you want.
Man, what? I work at Starbucks, as such I've tried a fair amount of coffee in my time. You're just violently wrong. If you don't like it, fine, but to say the product is "sub-par by far" is a little extreme.
And to add to the thread, Starbucks does treat it's employees pretty well. It's still retail, but at least it's not painful to work there.
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help?
Far and away the majority that entered my Best Buy store. No exaggeration.
Very rarely would anyone come in, be totally decided on what they want, and simply ask where to grab it/get it out of a case.
And when they did, it took two seconds and then you were right back with a customer making a large purchase who needed in-depth assistance. Been there.
Speaking personally, when I left my retail job, all I heard from management was how screwed they're going to be without me. Anyone who thinks clerks can do this job as well as salespeople should ask them how well it's working out.
Meh, fuck lifers. They aren't really so much more skilled as newer hires, as they have a lot less drive.
Work for 5, 10 or 15 years at retailer? Pffftttt....
Those hourly workers who are laid off will get severance packages and can apply for open positions after 10 weeks.
haaaaa gughghhaaaa haaaa.... "Hi Bob. You've been with the company for a long time, and we think you are a great worker. So, we are going to lay you off, but feel free to come back and work for a quarter over minimum wage in a few weeks."
seriously, it is fucking retail. Experience beyond about 3 months does not make a difference, folks are over paid for the work they do.
interesting. i dont know what kind of work you do, but ive been a lawyer for 3.5 years now and i would choose experience over enthusiasm any day of the week. i might even choose experience over talent.
and im saying this as someone with very little experience but lots of enthusiasm (and hopefully lots of talent). in my experience, a partner with 10 - 15 years at the firm is easily worth more than 10 associates with 1 - 3 years of experience, regardless of how talented or enthusiastic the associates are.
in some countries (notably china), associates essentially work for a very low salary, as disciples of sorts, so they can gain some legal experience. the firm takes care of their needs for life, but pretty much just the bare minimum, until the associates can actually add some value to the firm. for the first few years, associates are treated as cost items, not revenue streams because honestly, that's the reality of the situation.
id bet it's the same across industries. i would argue that it takes far more than 3 months for any industry to really turn an employee into an instrument for adding value.
i think circuit city is making a bad long term business decision.
interesting. i dont know what kind of work you do, but ive been a lawyer for 3.5 years now and i would choose experience over enthusiasm any day of the week. i might even choose experience over talent.
Entirely anecdotal. Even though I consider myself a pretty "informed" consumer - I know exactly what I want and where to find it - there are still plenty of instances where I go into a store and need help or just basic fucking courtesy. Most of the large problems with tactics like this are that they fuck over morale more than anything else. You may think that on-site staff don't need to know as much as they used to, which is your opinion, but they still have to treat people like decent human beings to keep their customer base happy. Guess what? Firing a bunch of people doesn't really help keep the morale high. Guess what else? That usually leads to customers being treated poorly.
Imagine me making a jerk-off motion with my hand.
You guys fucking act like you're the only ones who've ever heard of morale and it's effects, and that experienced retail executive don't even know of such a thing. They do. By and large they understand it better than you do.
Progress my ass. You want to talk about these things as if they're the natural reflection of people becoming more informed and being better consumers, but it just isn't true. You may feel like you're the pinnacle of the informed shopper, but just because you are doesn't mean that everyone else is.
So then why is it, exactly? You seem so certain that this is just one big mistake that will kill them, despite the fact that Best Buy's noncommission, high-turnover system has been throttling Circuit City for years. So you really believe that this is just some evil executive purposefully running his company into the ground because he likes firing people?
I mean, are you saying the Internet doesn't exist? That people don't buy things online? That people don't research and compare products and read online reviews before making a large purchase?
EDIT: I'm going to add something quick. My most recent retail experience was in a bike store. I don't care how fucking informed you think you are, you're never going to be more informed than I am about bicycles. None of my customers are. No matter how many Google searches they run and no matter how many times they pat themselves on the back for researching their purchases, there's going to be shit that they just don't know. Shit that they will ask me, and I will be able to answer for them. You act like retail employees don't serve a purpose, but only because you think you're such a hot shit smarty pants consumer. You're wrong.
Now, THAT is anecdotal. Anyway, bike stores, Radio Shack, these are places people go when they need expert assistance. Circuit City may have been at one time, but that is not their market anymore. They are price-driven. They are trying to compete with Best Buy.
I'm sorry, but the mentality that somebody who does a day's worth of Google searches and Amazon.com review-reading is somehow more informed than an experienced retail employee who deals day in and day out with the same product (regardless of what it is) is utterly laughable.
Are you fucking serious? I think we're quickly entering territory where our world views are so vastly different that rational discourse will not be fruitful.
This is the part I take issue with. Those days aren't gone just because a small segment of the population is making more informed consumer choices than ever before, and they're certainly not gone just because he says so. I also think I made a pretty good point as to why courtesy is just as important to retail as product knowledge - and why these kinds of firings are bad for morale and consequently courtesy.
But this isn't about courtesy at all. New employees are just as able to be courteous, and in fact often are more couteous in almost every customer-facing line of work I've ever seen.
And like I said, the "morale" argument is emaciated. I worked for years in corporate retail risk assessment. We used to assess "employee morale" risks when making decisions, but eventually we removed the category altogether because it was never a predictable business risk and there was never a predictable impact. To a great extent, customers will tolerate a pissed-off employee if it saves them a buck, and employees will tolerate most business decisions without getting pissed off, because it is usually just a matter of schedule and pay for them, not whether or not the old, experienced guy got fired.
Well shit, and I was going to go pick up a second copy of Puzzle Quest from there today. Must be American...must vote with my wallet...must not spend $5 Gift Card!
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Why? Best Buy's customers don't really care if Best Buy treats their employees like condoms. Because Best Buy's customers are not Best Buy's employees, and as such why would they give a shit?
That was exactly the point I'm making. As a customer either care enough to stop shopping at some place that treats their employees "poorly" (and note I keep using badly, evil , poorly and so on in quotes because it's by no means a given treating a low level, minimally skilled, and easily replaceable worker as such is a bad thing) and support those that treat employees "well"or shut the hell up about it. As a worker either actually MAKE yourself worth keeping on and paying more or quit complaining you are treated as you are. As a business person/economist/manager find a way to make treating employees "better" financially feasible or continue as you have been.
The idea I'm going for is empty righteous indignation is useless. No one is obligated (or judgeable for not, by any objective standard) to treat anyone else one iota better than society says they should.
You want to live in a world where a low level retail employee is treated better? Change the system to make that the best course of action for all involved instead of falling back on pointless moral chest beating. No one has, will, or shall ever care that a minority of people feel the actions of the some group are bad when the majority and every objective measure disagree.
How do you know I'm not already working on it? Obviously it's not the sort of thing that can be done overnight.
I work for Best Buy. I've worked there for about 5 months now. I work hard and have a good attitude. And its noticed, at my three month review I got a 30 cent raise, and I'm getting another raise in the next few weeks at my six month review and I am being considered for supervisor, chances are I'm not going to get it due to another guy who's also a hard worker and (truthfully) more qualified than I am. But you can make retail a career if you want to. Just take your job seriously, if you just show up every day and grind you're going to grind. If you show up at work and ask your boss what can I do to get your job?(maybe not in those words). And follow what they say and improve upon them you do well. And even if you don't want retail as a career it can get you to meet the right people to get into the career you want.
What? No dude I'm going to college. I'm never going back to retail, I worked hard and took my job seriously and they canned me because I had more loyalty in that store than the people above me and because one of the people above me managed to put all her fuckups in my name (I'm convinced this was purely an accident as she was pretty dumb and liked me because I was the only person who showed up for all my shifts).
Now, THAT is anecdotal. Anyway, bike stores, Radio Shack, these are places people go when they need expert assistance.
I hope you were joking re: Radioshack. They got out of the expert assistance game long before Best Buy and Circuit City.
Circuit City may have been at one time, but that is not their market anymore. They are price-driven. They are trying to compete with Best Buy.
No, they're both competing with Wal-Mart and Costco with this emphasis on price, and they'll both lose. There were only two reasons to shop at big-box retailers up until now. One was for product assistance and expertise, but that's been removed now. The other was for the loss-lead items, but these type of markdowns only hurry along the demise of the retail chains.
Very rarely would anyone come in, be totally decided on what they want, and simply ask where to grab it/get it out of a case.
LOL. Of course not, you didn't notice them. Because they didn't stop to chat with you.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't work that way. Nobody can grab big-ticket items off the floor or out of a case, they need a staff member to do it. Otherwise, theft would be an even bigger problem in retail electronics. So anybody who walks out the door with a computer, a camera, or the like, definitely talked to a salesperson.
The good salespeople can attach enough high-margin products and services to enough of their sales, not all of them, but enough, to generate lots of profit for the company throughout the day. Mediocre salespeople continually push stuff out the door marked down below cost, without so much as the basic, essential items to make them operational.
I find it amusing that you pretend to know so much about business principles, yet you are absolutely convinced that it is possible to pay less for a service and get the same return. You are arguing with people who know much more about the retail business than you, about the companies involved, and who actually have a sound grasp of how profit margin works. You are in over your head, sir.
The good salespeople can attach enough high-margin products and services to enough of their sales, not all of them, but enough, to generate lots of profit for the company throughout the day. Mediocre salespeople continually push stuff out the door marked down below cost, without so much as the basic, essential items to make them operational.
I find it amusing that you pretend to know so much about business principles, yet you are absolutely convinced that it is possible to pay less for a service and get the same return. You are arguing with people who know much more about the retail business than you, about the companies involved, and who actually have a sound grasp of how profit margin works. You are in over your head, sir.
Wait, so why did Circuit City fire all those people then? You know more about the retail business, the company, and profit margins than they do?
The good salespeople can attach enough high-margin products and services to enough of their sales, not all of them, but enough, to generate lots of profit for the company throughout the day. Mediocre salespeople continually push stuff out the door marked down below cost, without so much as the basic, essential items to make them operational.
I find it amusing that you pretend to know so much about business principles, yet you are absolutely convinced that it is possible to pay less for a service and get the same return. You are arguing with people who know much more about the retail business than you, about the companies involved, and who actually have a sound grasp of how profit margin works. You are in over your head, sir.
Wait, so why did Circuit City fire all those people then? You know more about the retail business, the company, and profit margins than they do?
Because obviously, us peons can't understand that corporations are infalliable.
The good salespeople can attach enough high-margin products and services to enough of their sales, not all of them, but enough, to generate lots of profit for the company throughout the day. Mediocre salespeople continually push stuff out the door marked down below cost, without so much as the basic, essential items to make them operational.
I find it amusing that you pretend to know so much about business principles, yet you are absolutely convinced that it is possible to pay less for a service and get the same return. You are arguing with people who know much more about the retail business than you, about the companies involved, and who actually have a sound grasp of how profit margin works. You are in over your head, sir.
Wait, so why did Circuit City fire all those people then? You know more about the retail business, the company, and profit margins than they do?
Because obviously, us peons can't understand that corporations are infalliable.
You think that Circuit City is firing people because of dishonest accounting gimmicks?
Because obviously, us peons can't understand that corporations are infalliable.
You think that Circuit City is firing people because of dishonest accounting gimmicks?
No, I think he's just questioning the whole "they're running a company, they must know better" argument. Because it assumes that those running a company either A) have the best interests of investors, employees, or even the company itself in mind or know what the fuck they're doing.
Enron specifically (along with others) have shown this to not always be the case.
Because obviously, us peons can't understand that corporations are infalliable.
You think that Circuit City is firing people because of dishonest accounting gimmicks?
No, I think he's just questioning the whole "they're running a company, they must know better" argument. Because it assumes that those running a company either A) have the best interests of investors, employees, or even the company itself in mind or know what the fuck they're doing.
Enron specifically (along with others) have shown this to not always be the case.
Sure. It's a little bit of an argument from authority on both sides.
The managers may not be smart or honest. On the other hand, people who aren't managers, no matter how good they are at their jobs, have a way of not having the perspective or knowledge to accurately assess broader company strategies.
Posts
I was just glancing over the forums before my flight and I'm glad someone mentioned Best Buy, because they have the exact counter example I thought of when I saw this thread.
In a nutshell (and I'm sure I've gotten into this before with people) bitching about how "evil/bad/stupid" a large companies choices is pointless and a waste of energy. A company doesn't (and shouldn't) care how evil you think they are as long as for the majority of society that doesn't outweigh their interest in saving money (which big business does better than little). And as much as armchair business people might like to call management stupid (and may be right at the store/region level) odds are the level of management that made this call is anything but. If you think the highest corporate officers haven't checked the math every possible way before deciding the hire-wage employees weren't worth keeping then I really don't know what to tell you.
But, and this is the Best Buy counter example I mentioned, basic economics doesn't always "screw the little guy": Exihibit A. You want to do something productive? SHOW people its actually better to treat employees well and work with them as opposed to blindly asserting the way retail treats its employees is "bad" and will hurt the business in the face of all actual evidence to the contrary.
Eventually however, between annual raises and bonuses she was making more than they wanted to pay a mere assistant manager. At the same time, there were no full manager positions open to promote her into (though she would have gotten one had one been available) . . . so they got rid of her.
Why? Best Buy's customers don't really care if Best Buy treats their employees like condoms. Because Best Buy's customers are not Best Buy's employees, and as such why would they give a shit?
Right now I'm working two jobs to earn up some money before going back into school; theater usher and data entry. When I was looking for jobs (started December 15ish) I started with the retail stuff, because that's fast. My first day on the job was Christmas. Meanwhile I looked for office work, and got a job through the Randstad temp agency around Jan 20. The two jobs are so incredibly different. Turnover rate at the theater is the highest I've ever seen at a place I work, 3 months in and almost all the other ushers are newer than me. One old guy who barely moves or talks has been there maybe 2-3 years, a couple for 6 months, and most have been there all of a month or less. The work sucks, the pay's low, the management clearly sees employees as just an expense and potential risk (no pockets in our uniforms, we might steal something).
Data entry seriously is heaven in comparison. Sit down rather than stand for 7 hours in a row, not cleaning up peoples shit, earn twice as much on a weekly basis, a break area that doesn't consist of a bench in a locker room, etc etc. The only downside is knowing that Randstad is getting paid almost twice as much for my work as they pay me, but it still kicks the theater's ass.
So, moral of the story, sign up for a temp agency, keep applying at places, whatever, the improvement you see in a week of getting the hell out of retail beats what you'll see from 20 years of sticking with it.
Very true. The shitbirds will let people walk without even trying to close a sale. People who go look elsewhere are going to buy elsewhere.
When I worked retail, the "seniors" always had sales budgets roughly 50% greater than the new hires, and met them consistently, along with attachment goals. If you crunch the numbers, it becomes apparent that this is only even a cost-cutting move if Circuit can attract n00bs for $8/hr who can sell $60,000 a month in inventory. They were unable to get $40,000 a month from new hires making $10/hr before, so this is simply not going to fucking happen. Also, this whole model assumes that hiring people away from Micky Ds instead of away from retail competitors like Best Buy is likely to yield workers capable of attaching to sales as well as the experienced salesmen they're replacing. Again, this is simply not going to fucking happen.
So keep an eye on the papers early next year. Store closures, enough of them that there will almost certainly be one close to you. And good liquidation specials. Have a good laugh when the redshirted drone offers to have his insolvent company cover that TV you're buying with an extended warranty.
That was exactly the point I'm making. As a customer either care enough to stop shopping at some place that treats their employees "poorly" (and note I keep using badly, evil , poorly and so on in quotes because it's by no means a given treating a low level, minimally skilled, and easily replaceable worker as such is a bad thing) and support those that treat employees "well"or shut the hell up about it. As a worker either actually MAKE yourself worth keeping on and paying more or quit complaining you are treated as you are. As a business person/economist/manager find a way to make treating employees "better" financially feasible or continue as you have been.
The idea I'm going for is empty righteous indignation is useless. No one is obligated (or judgeable for not, by any objective standard) to treat anyone else one iota better than society says they should.
You want to live in a world where a low level retail employee is treated better? Change the system to make that the best course of action for all involved instead of falling back on pointless moral chest beating. No one has, will, or shall ever care that a minority of people feel the actions of the some group are bad when the majority and every objective measure disagree.
How do you know I'm not already working on it? Obviously it's not the sort of thing that can be done overnight.
Maybe it's just my area, but I've tried the temp agency route, and it was utterly worthless. In two months of "working" for the temp agency, I landed a grand total of two jobs that lasted all of a combined total of five days.
Speaking of counter examples, try this one:
"The company says turnover costs - recruiting, training, and loss of operational time - are $102,000 per blue shirt, or about 250 percent of their salary."
Now, I don't know Circuit City's numbers. But if it costs even half that much firing their long term employees was a very stupid move. Not only do they have to train replacements, the replacements they do get won't last as long, meaning they'll have to deal with those costs more often.
Actually, I meant that the vets would know how to get stuff out that shouldn't be leaving...that is, they'll know how to steal. Once you've worked at a store for a while, it wouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out exactly how to avoid whatever security procedures are in place.
Not quite the same thing, but when I was working at a Waldenbooks, the first week there I figured out how to take anything I wanted. Not hard at all if you keep your eyes open. Sure, a plasma TV would be a bit more of a challenge, but I'm sure a CC vet could figure out how to smuggle software, DVD's, even small hardware stuff out the door without anyone noticing.
IOS Game Center ID: Isotope-X
Seriously, home many people go into a retail store anymore looking for experienced help? Gabe and Tycho have done at least a couple posts and comics about the precision with which they enter a retail establishment to purchase an exact item at an exact price, all already known to them ahead of time.
I know I'm the same way. By the time I actually get into the store, especially a store like Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-mart or whatever, I know exactly what I want, exactly why I want it, and exactly how much it is. The clerk can offer me whatever the latest in-store promotin might be, but other than that, I'd prefer they all leave me the fuck alone and let me self-checkout.
Gone are the days when the typical consumer walked into a store and thought, "I want a [computer game | TV | watch | whatever], but which one? What are the differences? What sales are going on?" All of this can be figured out at home, faster, more accurately, and in more detail. Unless you're some old fart, in which case you're set in your ways and are likely to buy at the same store you've shopped at for 20 years regardless.
Commissioned retail sales or expert on-site staff are nothing more than a waste of money that shoppers don't want and only keeps the price higher than it needs to be.
I can promise you this isn't about evil bastards fucking people over. It almost never is. It's about all of us fucking people over in the process of progress.
Not everybody is comfortable using the Internet to do research. Plenty of people still expect help from sales staff. There are a lot of small independent shops who have found their niche giving quality service and support for higher-markup items.
Besides, big box retail chains using trained monkeys to do sales is nothing new. If anything, quality information on the Internet has risen up because big box chains typically give subpar service.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Entirely anecdotal. Even though I consider myself a pretty "informed" consumer - I know exactly what I want and where to find it - there are still plenty of instances where I go into a store and need help or just basic fucking courtesy. Most of the large problems with tactics like this are that they fuck over morale more than anything else. You may think that on-site staff don't need to know as much as they used to, which is your opinion, but they still have to treat people like decent human beings to keep their customer base happy. Guess what? Firing a bunch of people doesn't really help keep the morale high. Guess what else? That usually leads to customers being treated poorly.
Progress my ass. You want to talk about these things as if they're the natural reflection of people becoming more informed and being better consumers, but it just isn't true. You may feel like you're the pinnacle of the informed shopper, but just because you are doesn't mean that everyone else is.
EDIT: I'm going to add something quick. My most recent retail experience was in a bike store. I don't care how fucking informed you think you are, you're never going to be more informed than I am about bicycles. None of my customers are. No matter how many Google searches they run and no matter how many times they pat themselves on the back for researching their purchases, there's going to be shit that they just don't know. Shit that they will ask me, and I will be able to answer for them. You act like retail employees don't serve a purpose, but only because you think you're such a hot shit smarty pants consumer. You're wrong.
Considering that, this isn't surprising at all. The funnier thing is, they get surprised when they see bad scores on their mystery shops because new employees don't care, and suck at product presentation.
It'll come back to bite them eventually, but they won't care. (Retail is still a much, much easier job than working in the restaurant industry. Anyone who's done both knows this.)
Exactly. In fact, some of these same PA strips Yar refers to are jabs at how clueless a lot of these clerks are. It's the combination of uninformed staff and corporate BS like pushing magazine subscriptions that makes savvy shoppers want to just get in and get out.
Seriously, I'd recommend for some of you to go online to your state website and look around at state jobs. Even if its just seasonal or temp work, once you got your foot in the door, its that much easier to get inside.
this is not as true for everyone as it is for "us". I work retail (radioshack) and there are plenty of people who have no clue as to prices, or if we carry what they want. And these are not just old people.
Eh, I don't think Starbucks is a good example because of the addictive nature of their products. I mean, personally I don't go there because they have good customer service. I go there because they have good coffee.
Cute, but you worked at a specialty business, not at a big box store or even Circuit City. I'm pretty sure Yar wouldn't need your expertise if it were in blenders, computer speakers, plasma televisions, or video games. I'm not convinced that the consumer who picks his target online is the majority at the present time, either, but wow, chill. At least his anecdote was pertinent.
I'm sorry, but the mentality that somebody who does a day's worth of Google searches and Amazon.com review-reading is somehow more informed than an experienced retail employee who deals day in and day out with the same product (regardless of what it is) is utterly laughable. Yes, PA is full of examples of the Gamestop register monkeys who can't tell Dreamcasts from ducks without thumbs, but we're talking about a company laying off it's most seasoned and trained employees here specifically to hire more idiots like that.
Layoffs like this are the reason shit like that happens, not the other way around.
EDIT:
This is the part I take issue with. Those days aren't gone just because a small segment of the population is making more informed consumer choices than ever before, and they're certainly not gone just because he says so. I also think I made a pretty good point as to why courtesy is just as important to retail as product knowledge - and why these kinds of firings are bad for morale and consequently courtesy.
Because they have good coffee or because you're addicted to Starbucks? And you know, for how successful the company has been since stores started popping up everywhere, it seems kind of silly to write off the effectiveness of their business-plan entirely.
Far and away the majority that entered my Best Buy store. No exaggeration.
Very rarely would anyone come in, be totally decided on what they want, and simply ask where to grab it/get it out of a case.
What?
They have bad coffee. Nobody is addicted to their specific coffee unless people can be addicted to charcoal.
That's why they sell 90 thousand different things that aren't coffee, and their coffee drinks are all about hiding the taste of the bad coffee. All the prestige of coffee, with five times the sugar and chocolate and whipped cream and jimmies and maybe sometimes some coffee too.
They're just masterful at marketing their crap and creating the culture around it.
The product is sub-par by far.
I've been to Australian coffee houses.
It's about the only thing I miss there.
And to add to the thread, Starbucks does treat it's employees pretty well. It's still retail, but at least it's not painful to work there.
I work for Best Buy. I've worked there for about 5 months now. I work hard and have a good attitude. And its noticed, at my three month review I got a 30 cent raise, and I'm getting another raise in the next few weeks at my six month review and I am being considered for supervisor, chances are I'm not going to get it due to another guy who's also a hard worker and (truthfully) more qualified than I am. But you can make retail a career if you want to. Just take your job seriously, if you just show up every day and grind you're going to grind. If you show up at work and ask your boss what can I do to get your job?(maybe not in those words). And follow what they say and improve upon them you do well. And even if you don't want retail as a career it can get you to meet the right people to get into the career you want.
Admittedly, the par may be very low.
And when they did, it took two seconds and then you were right back with a customer making a large purchase who needed in-depth assistance. Been there.
Speaking personally, when I left my retail job, all I heard from management was how screwed they're going to be without me. Anyone who thinks clerks can do this job as well as salespeople should ask them how well it's working out.
interesting. i dont know what kind of work you do, but ive been a lawyer for 3.5 years now and i would choose experience over enthusiasm any day of the week. i might even choose experience over talent.
and im saying this as someone with very little experience but lots of enthusiasm (and hopefully lots of talent). in my experience, a partner with 10 - 15 years at the firm is easily worth more than 10 associates with 1 - 3 years of experience, regardless of how talented or enthusiastic the associates are.
in some countries (notably china), associates essentially work for a very low salary, as disciples of sorts, so they can gain some legal experience. the firm takes care of their needs for life, but pretty much just the bare minimum, until the associates can actually add some value to the firm. for the first few years, associates are treated as cost items, not revenue streams because honestly, that's the reality of the situation.
id bet it's the same across industries. i would argue that it takes far more than 3 months for any industry to really turn an employee into an instrument for adding value.
i think circuit city is making a bad long term business decision.
Dude. Retail. i.e. register biscuits/monkeys/etc.
You guys fucking act like you're the only ones who've ever heard of morale and it's effects, and that experienced retail executive don't even know of such a thing. They do. By and large they understand it better than you do.
So then why is it, exactly? You seem so certain that this is just one big mistake that will kill them, despite the fact that Best Buy's noncommission, high-turnover system has been throttling Circuit City for years. So you really believe that this is just some evil executive purposefully running his company into the ground because he likes firing people?
I mean, are you saying the Internet doesn't exist? That people don't buy things online? That people don't research and compare products and read online reviews before making a large purchase?
Now, THAT is anecdotal. Anyway, bike stores, Radio Shack, these are places people go when they need expert assistance. Circuit City may have been at one time, but that is not their market anymore. They are price-driven. They are trying to compete with Best Buy.
Are you fucking serious? I think we're quickly entering territory where our world views are so vastly different that rational discourse will not be fruitful.
But this isn't about courtesy at all. New employees are just as able to be courteous, and in fact often are more couteous in almost every customer-facing line of work I've ever seen.
And like I said, the "morale" argument is emaciated. I worked for years in corporate retail risk assessment. We used to assess "employee morale" risks when making decisions, but eventually we removed the category altogether because it was never a predictable business risk and there was never a predictable impact. To a great extent, customers will tolerate a pissed-off employee if it saves them a buck, and employees will tolerate most business decisions without getting pissed off, because it is usually just a matter of schedule and pay for them, not whether or not the old, experienced guy got fired.
LOL. Of course not, you didn't notice them. Because they didn't stop to chat with you.
What? No dude I'm going to college. I'm never going back to retail, I worked hard and took my job seriously and they canned me because I had more loyalty in that store than the people above me and because one of the people above me managed to put all her fuckups in my name (I'm convinced this was purely an accident as she was pretty dumb and liked me because I was the only person who showed up for all my shifts).
I hope you were joking re: Radioshack. They got out of the expert assistance game long before Best Buy and Circuit City.
No, they're both competing with Wal-Mart and Costco with this emphasis on price, and they'll both lose. There were only two reasons to shop at big-box retailers up until now. One was for product assistance and expertise, but that's been removed now. The other was for the loss-lead items, but these type of markdowns only hurry along the demise of the retail chains.
LOL. Of course not, you didn't notice them. Because they didn't stop to chat with you.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't work that way. Nobody can grab big-ticket items off the floor or out of a case, they need a staff member to do it. Otherwise, theft would be an even bigger problem in retail electronics. So anybody who walks out the door with a computer, a camera, or the like, definitely talked to a salesperson.
The good salespeople can attach enough high-margin products and services to enough of their sales, not all of them, but enough, to generate lots of profit for the company throughout the day. Mediocre salespeople continually push stuff out the door marked down below cost, without so much as the basic, essential items to make them operational.
I find it amusing that you pretend to know so much about business principles, yet you are absolutely convinced that it is possible to pay less for a service and get the same return. You are arguing with people who know much more about the retail business than you, about the companies involved, and who actually have a sound grasp of how profit margin works. You are in over your head, sir.
Wait, so why did Circuit City fire all those people then? You know more about the retail business, the company, and profit margins than they do?
Because obviously, us peons can't understand that corporations are infalliable.
You think that Circuit City is firing people because of dishonest accounting gimmicks?
No, I think he's just questioning the whole "they're running a company, they must know better" argument. Because it assumes that those running a company either A) have the best interests of investors, employees, or even the company itself in mind or
Enron specifically (along with others) have shown this to not always be the case.
Sure. It's a little bit of an argument from authority on both sides.
The managers may not be smart or honest. On the other hand, people who aren't managers, no matter how good they are at their jobs, have a way of not having the perspective or knowledge to accurately assess broader company strategies.