After a few weeks of seeing her on SR, Jinx feels a bit like the Malz/Morde of bot lane to me.
She's strong, she's very likely to win her lane if left to her own devices, but she pushes the lane almost by necessity (either to keep her minigun steroid up or because of her rockets' splash) and she's very capable of getting absolutely fucked by jungler attention.
The problem is that a lot of solo queue junglers are allergic to bot lane, so even if the support that she's facing has won the vision war she can spiral out of control relatively easily.
Nothing at all with pushing your lane as long as you have good ward coverage. Moreover, pushing bottom lane forces enemy markscreature to last hit under tower and relieves the rest of the map because jungler will come bottom. If he fail ganks, that's a win for your whole team.
Top: I've been starting boots/pots with ignite, or brawlers/2pot with teleport so that I can B early for the Avarice Blade and a ward. Is ignite preferable, or is port? I mean, he already has a global, but I like the meta-sustain of port. I don't really get the feeling Gangplank is a bursty champ where you'd want to ignite for the kill - you just work on being BankPlank and building that Shiv, and then the DPS comes every Q cooldown, and they leave lane.
Teleport is nice for maximizing your global pressure, but GP isn't the best split-pusher in LoL. Against a team with a strong assassin / engage, I'd run ignite, as a GP split push could easily get you killed. Against a team without 1-2 champions that can insta-kill you, you can probably get away with some split-push-teleport nonsense.
In general, I think planning your lane around rushing GP/10 items is unwise. Using teleport to get an early Avarice Blade? That's still less effective in terms of combat stats than a Doran's Blade, and you're down a summoner's spell and stats for it.
Against, say, Riven with a Doran's Blade start, you're down effective combat stats and you're down a summoner spell. That's basically "free lunch" for any top laner who can play aggressive.
Jungle: Machete/5 and standard build otherwise? Your armor item is Ancient Golem out of your Spirit Stone.
Had problems vs. a top riven who just went balls-out on me in lane. Too much burst from her. Strangely, been against Renekton a couple times now and he isn't threatening at all in comparison.
Versus aggro top lane opponents (Jax, Riven) should I sub in a philo in there somewhere to help with safe laning re: health regen and mana for my W since I don't need DPS to last hit and the GP/5 will effectively pay for itself while I lane? OrI just take barrier/ignite/exhaust for aggro top lane opponents?
Philo stone is less cost-effective than healing potions for sustain by a huge margin. It has no health and no armor. Getting a philo against Jax or Riven is committing to "farm under tower for 20 minutes" as a strategy. Better to buy items that will actually let you contest the lane, or purchase vision wards and have your jungler feast on Jax and Riven (both easily baited into an all-in due to the nature of their skills).
I don't find her w all that useful in laning phase. Being stopped by the first minion it hits means that as long as you can stand toe to toe with her, you can just hang out in the wave. Alternatively, it's not that hard to dodge if you don't put yourself in a bad angle.
The best use I've seen for it is harassing the enemy support while they jockey for position in the lane bush. The slow is handy late game for leading off a catch.
Her E is fantastic for a single point, and her ult is very satisfying.
Just play smart against jungle shaco, know that he is very likely going to try to steal your red and then gank the nearest lane. Its very easy to set him behind and thus completely irrelevant if you play smart against him early on. You can counter it pretty easily by either starting at your red buff, or having mid and the side lane converge on the red after you take blue, or just giving him the red buff and rushing straight to take his after you get blue. The last option your lane has to play smart though and realize that he is going to gank after he gets the red buff. Good luck!
he was on my team and ended up 14/3 and i won the series.
but aq jungle shaco and a support lux on a team and it goes well, maybe i should buy a lottery ticket today.
Ugh, win a game, lose a game. Looks like I'm at +20/-10 now.
If you are Vayne, your support is Janna, the enemy bot lane is Sona/Jinx. What possesses you to do all of the following?
a) start Condemn at level 1
b) wait for your Janna to enter the river to ward the enemy tribush
c) Flash forward and condemn Sona into the wall
d) continue to try to fight as Janna drops the ward in tribush
e) get exhausted
f) get slaughtered by half HP Sona and full HP Jinx
How are you at my MMR, magical mystery bullshit ADC player? In what twisted brain fantasy does that result in anything other than your death? That's like six mistakes in one play. If she'd just backed off after the condemn (and maybe not fucking Flashed for it, it would have been a very successful trade.
So, of course, by the time she gets back to lane we are levels 2 and 1 against a pair of level 3s and now Jinx has a huge gold advantage and Sona has a huge vision advantage 'cause she can afford two extra pinks. Lane was lost at 3 minutes.
I just came in here to say that my team are scrublord feeders, while my malphite top is godlike.
There may be some missing pieces to these statements.
It's true!
I thought those plat people were meant to carry our scrub asses; instead we all just fed uncontrollably except for Malphite, who, to be fair, was possibly eschewing teamfights in order to farm top.
Um, right, so actually I have discovered that I am more terrible than I thought, because if I can't win lane with a plat support, then clearly the problem is very much on my side.
Temporary solution: drop Caitlyn for Draven. (side benefit: stop pushing the lane so damn much).
But if I first pick Draven (because I seem to be team captain and don't have a deep champion pool to trade with), it that terrible? I don't think so, but I haven't played enough to know the counterpicks. I guess Caitlyn is kind of a problem? But that can't be true, because when I am Caitlyn, I don't like it when the enemy picks Draven. Hmm.
I just came in here to say that my team are scrublord feeders, while my malphite top is godlike.
There may be some missing pieces to these statements.
It's true!
I thought those plat people were meant to carry our scrub asses; instead we all just fed uncontrollably except for Malphite, who, to be fair, was possibly eschewing teamfights in order to farm top.
Um, right, so actually I have discovered that I am more terrible than I thought, because if I can't win lane with a plat support, then clearly the problem is very much on my side.
Temporary solution: drop Caitlyn for Draven. (side benefit: stop pushing the lane so damn much).
But if I first pick Draven (because I seem to be team captain and don't have a deep champion pool to trade with), it that terrible? I don't think so, but I haven't played enough to know the counterpicks. I guess Caitlyn is kind of a problem? But that can't be true, because when I am Caitlyn, I don't like it when the enemy picks Draven. Hmm.
Draven really likes to charge at Caitlyn to steal her hat.
How are you at my MMR, magical mystery bullshit ADC player?
there are good and bad players at every elo
yesterday I had a trist spend the entire laning phase trading back and forth (and dying to) a support teemo while their adc corki just contentedly farmed away
she was very determined
after each death she would return to lane, sure that this time she would defeat that wily teemo
Top: I've been starting boots/pots with ignite, or brawlers/2pot with teleport so that I can B early for the Avarice Blade and a ward. Is ignite preferable, or is port? I mean, he already has a global, but I like the meta-sustain of port. I don't really get the feeling Gangplank is a bursty champ where you'd want to ignite for the kill - you just work on being BankPlank and building that Shiv, and then the DPS comes every Q cooldown, and they leave lane.
Jungle: Machete/5 and standard build otherwise? Your armor item is Ancient Golem out of your Spirit Stone.
Had problems vs. a top riven who just went balls-out on me in lane. Too much burst from her. Strangely, been against Renekton a couple times now and he isn't threatening at all in comparison.
Versus aggro top lane opponents (Jax, Riven) should I sub in a philo in there somewhere to help with safe laning re: health regen and mana for my W since I don't need DPS to last hit and the GP/5 will effectively pay for itself while I lane? OrI just take barrier/ignite/exhaust for aggro top lane opponents?
What's the skill order? Versus people you can hurt/kill, you Q>W>E, and in farm lanes, W>Q>E ?
I'm also buying a ton of mana pots. LIke 8+ per game. Wonder if I should early philo to alleviate that, and roll the money into wards instead. I typically don't GP5 because of the loss of fighting/CSing ability, but he's probably the easiest champ in the game to last hit with, and you want to be Qing for the gold bonus, and he basically "levels up" when you get the Shiv instead of the more linear power curve of a lot of tops.
Gangplanks weakness' are anybody who can easily gapclose with him.
Definitely take combat summoners. Gangplank is a weak duelist before getting some items, so you need all the help you can get when people force it on you early.
I would never take brawlers glove first. That means I'll trade favorably with you all the time and you have no real combat stats. Just get a couple crit runes in there. Normalization does the rest.
You could do an early philo, or also be funny and do Spirit of the Elder Lizard. True damage ults, mana regen, and CDR.
Honestly, Try levelling E first. The passive speed and AD costs no mana, and it increases Q damage without raising Q mana cost. Your main way of staying safe is kiting with your slow and the extra speed buff makes it even easier to do so. Also makes ganks easier with superbuffed jungler.
Interesting, thank you! I never considered whether or not crit was normalized in LOL, so that's something worth knowing. Is prioritizing E only for jungle, or for lane too? And Lizard Elder as well? I knew it would proc on his Q since that's coded as a basic attack, but GP's ult triggers on-hit effects too?
I do E for lane. If they can't catch you they can't hit you. And Q mana cost gets exorbitant.
Lizard Elder procs off of every ult hit since it's a spell. It's pretty dumb.
And Phage works off of Q as well. And Hydra AoE
Basically Paarrrley is the swiss army knife of LoL abilities.
GP's E costs the exact same amount of mana as Parley, and Parley refunds half mana if it kills a creep. IMO there are only 2 valid choices for maxing in lane on GP, and that's Q and W. Q if you can bully the other person with parley, or W if you are going to build mana/armor first and just farm because his W heal base is pretty damn good. 360 HP at max rank.
Also, if you max E at level 9 you have 1.5 doran's blades worth of passive AD and 7% move speed. And if you hit E for the better bonuses for 7 seconds, now you get 13 seconds of nothing and your parley and heal don't do shit. I can't imagine a GP not losing basically every lane against almost anybody if they maxed E first.
I've really never understood people who don't want to push bot lane. If you're a lane that is capable of pushing the lane to the enemy tower without them being able to push it back against you then you should win that lane about 100% of the time. You're in a lane with a 2nd person who is playing a role that is designed to start the game with and constantly have wards in their inventory. With proper wards, it is basically impossible to die to a jungle gank while keeping the enemy bot lane pushed to the tower.
Yes, you have to always have wards down if you're going to keep it pushed, and yes you will have to buy pinks/oracles if the other support is spending all their gold to try to create opportunities for his jungler, but you should also always have the enemy bot lane behind on CS, and if you're landing your skills while they try to farm on tower they should also always be less health than you so any gank will either be impotent or your jungler will counter gank and your team picks up multiple kills and probably a dragon for free.
I've really never understood people who don't want to push bot lane. If you're a lane that is capable of pushing the lane to the enemy tower without them being able to push it back against you then you should win that lane about 100% of the time. You're in a lane with a 2nd person who is playing a role that is designed to start the game with and constantly have wards in their inventory. With proper wards, it is basically impossible to die to a jungle gank while keeping the enemy bot lane pushed to the tower.
Yes, you have to always have wards down if you're going to keep it pushed, and yes you will have to buy pinks/oracles if the other support is spending all their gold to try to create opportunities for his jungler, but you should also always have the enemy bot lane behind on CS, and if you're landing your skills while they try to farm on tower they should also always be less health than you so any gank will either be impotent or your jungler will counter gank and your team picks up multiple kills and probably a dragon for free.
i hate the advice of "don't push the lane", i think that it causes all sorts of problems. better advice would be "push the lane safely" meaning that you can shove all you want with proper ward coverage, and it's your advantage to do so.
"Don't push the lane" is the most persistent bit of nonsense that's stuck around from seasons 1 & 2. It's a mindset from a time before people realized that wards are pretty good items.
Jinx is a super-fast turret pusher, but is very vulnerable to harass. I think her win/loss depends entirely on the supports as opposed to her kit.
Her steroid is powerful, but she only gets it at 525 range. I think the only thing that needs to be tuned is probably here W (tazer) damage.
As Sivir, with my 500 range, can I get a huge attack speed buff for free plz riot?
There are absolutely times you don't want to push the lane, but they're kind of finicky. You will do much better over the long run if you just shove bot lane into their tower and ward well.
@credeiki Caitlyn is one of the safest first pick adcs. She doesn't have any hard counters, but hard counters several of the common carries. If you want some pointers, watch some of Jaefs videos, he is a really good Caitlyn (twitch.tv/jaefster). Also, you don't have to be first pick. Let someone else on the team make the ranked lobby and they'll be first pick.
I jaxed against a shen top the other day and lost lane after he got a first blood off a gank
meta pls
That was the fun thing about my lane... I died to a super extended gank(Jax hid in his bushes while yi farmed for, like, two whole lanes).
And then I basically had Jax killed 1v1 in lane when cho showed up and Jax decided to try to juke through my bushes just as cho arived, finally getting the damn kill.
And then it just got out of control from there.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
edited October 2013
Yeah, I'm just kind of an idiot about telport. Honestly I don't even use it for lane-gank or split push use, I just like it so I can B for items and a full hp/mana refresh and be back without missing a creep.
EDIT: What got me into this habit was, I used to run flash/ignite on Lux. And then I realized that instead of trying to futz with Ignite and slivering people instead, I could just take teleport and have that much more sustain + more DPS from itemization. Ignite doesn't kill people, forcing them out of lane and landing clutch shots with your laser kills people. Similarly, for GP, I don't really try to kill people, I just get shiv and force them to B.
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Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
I just came in here to say that my team are scrublord feeders, while my malphite top is godlike.
There may be some missing pieces to these statements.
It's true!
I thought those plat people were meant to carry our scrub asses; instead we all just fed uncontrollably except for Malphite, who, to be fair, was possibly eschewing teamfights in order to farm top.
Um, right, so actually I have discovered that I am more terrible than I thought, because if I can't win lane with a plat support, then clearly the problem is very much on my side.
Temporary solution: drop Caitlyn for Draven. (side benefit: stop pushing the lane so damn much).
But if I first pick Draven (because I seem to be team captain and don't have a deep champion pool to trade with), it that terrible? I don't think so, but I haven't played enough to know the counterpicks. I guess Caitlyn is kind of a problem? But that can't be true, because when I am Caitlyn, I don't like it when the enemy picks Draven. Hmm.
There is nothing wrong with pushing lane, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a dumbface/head/butt/goose.
I've really never understood people who don't want to push bot lane. If you're a lane that is capable of pushing the lane to the enemy tower without them being able to push it back against you then you should win that lane about 100% of the time. You're in a lane with a 2nd person who is playing a role that is designed to start the game with and constantly have wards in their inventory. With proper wards, it is basically impossible to die to a jungle gank while keeping the enemy bot lane pushed to the tower.
Yes, you have to always have wards down if you're going to keep it pushed, and yes you will have to buy pinks/oracles if the other support is spending all their gold to try to create opportunities for his jungler, but you should also always have the enemy bot lane behind on CS, and if you're landing your skills while they try to farm on tower they should also always be less health than you so any gank will either be impotent or your jungler will counter gank and your team picks up multiple kills and probably a dragon for free.
My only regret is that I have but one "Agree" to give this post.
Yeah, I'm just kind of an idiot about telport. Honestly I don't even use it for lane-gank or split push use, I just like it so I can B for items and a full hp/mana refresh and be back without missing a creep.
Teleport is so powerful when the opposing team is running a split push/ your team is organized to make plays off of your own split push.
With proper wards, it is basically impossible to die to a jungle gank while keeping the enemy bot lane pushed to the tower.
Not entirely true.
Junglers willing to burn a summoner spell can engage from outside ward vision range.
Vi, Jarvan, Sejuani, and Zac are all capable of engaging from outside ward vision range by using a flash in tandem with tier initiations. Support Thresh increases this list to "everyone in the game."
Many other junglers can approach through wards fast enough to force an engage by using Ghost. Hobo Bear and Magic Pony in particular come to mind.
Which isn't to say "don't push," because there are many advantages of pushing bot lane, but it isn't risk-free. Make sure to coordinate with your mid and jungler, as pushing bot requires both to be ready for 3v3 or 4v4 teamfights.
Not disagreeing with your advice, which I think is sound, just adding a big * to it. Pushing bot hard while your jungler is busy trying to salvage a bad top lane and mid is farming under their tower is suicide.
I have literally seen a pushing Jinx die to a Shyvana ganking through wards. I'm not criticising the general "pushing" strategy, but when you're an AD carry without an escape it's inherently risky.
And yes, starting with a support does help prevent ganks, but wards aren't permanent and aren't unlimited. It's not uncommon (at my skill level) for bot lane to be completely unwarded at the six minute mark, because the supports will have used up all the wards that they started with and not had the opportunity to return to their base.
With proper wards, it is basically impossible to die to a jungle gank while keeping the enemy bot lane pushed to the tower.
Not entirely true.
Junglers willing to burn a summoner spell can engage from outside ward vision range.
Vi, Jarvan, Sejuani, and Zac are all capable of engaging from outside ward vision range by using a flash in tandem with tier initiations. Support Thresh increases this list to "everyone in the game."
Many other junglers can approach through wards fast enough to force an engage by using Ghost. Hobo Bear and Magic Pony in particular come to mind.
Which isn't to say "don't push," because there are many advantages of pushing bot lane, but it isn't risk-free. Make sure to coordinate with your mid and jungler, as pushing bot requires both to be ready for 3v3 or 4v4 teamfights.
Not disagreeing with your advice, which I think is sound, just adding a big * to it. Pushing bot hard while your jungler is busy trying to salvage a bad top lane and mid is farming under their tower is suicide.
You're assuming the ward's just in the bush.
What if as purple there's one at the dragon pit and one in the tri?
Or on blue side there's one at their blue and one at dragon pit?
What if as purple there's one at the dragon pit and one in the tri?
Or on blue side there's one at their blue and one at dragon pit?
That list goes down a ton then.
Not really, from my perspective (usually Jungler), let's say I'm running Vi or Udyr (two most common picks for me):
Vi: I can approach from directly behind turret in lane (no realistic way to ward here). Charge Q, flash, I can go from "outside vision" to "within ultimate range" using those two abilities. That's a huge investment (Flash, Q, R) just to start a fight, but if I know bot lane is pushed hard and doesn't have anyone nearby to back them up, I'm happy to trade my flash to force two flashes from bot or to get a kill if anyone doesn't flash immediately.
I can also use Q to slowly sneak through dragon pit from behind. Lee Sin can do the same with ward hopping.
If I'm purple side, I can charge Q in the bush behind tower, flash, Q, then R, same forced initiation. Obviously not effective if your support wards the tri inside purple side jungle.
Jarvan and Zac can do similar, advance with abilities, flash, ult to force a fast fight. Not an efficient use of abilities, but if you know for sure its a 2v3 it can be a good trade.
Udyr: Get my speed stack going, run swiftness or mobility boots, and detour towards lane by approaching through edge of opposing jungle as far as possible. Pop ghost as soon as I'm in ward range and have bottom initiate as I do so, enemy bot now has to choose between immediately burning all disengage abilities to avoid a 3v2 or trying to salvage a winning fight before fastbear can arrive.
Udyr or Hecarim can just use ghost to plow through a ward and rush you. If the opposing enemy bot has any initiation at all, you'll be required to flash out.
Again, like I said before, I'm not saying "don't push bot." Push bot! Its great, it is good advice, the benefits of pushing bot have been explained quite well. A pushed lane creates incredible opportunities for your jungler to invade or sneak into lane. Pushing forces bot to commit to protecting their turret or you can take it fast! Just remember that it does open you to some risks, and if the enemy mid or jungler have been MIA for a while and you don't have any backup nearby and their summoner spells and ultimates are up, well, maybe weigh the advantage of "push turret" against the risk of "can we win a 2v3 or 2v4?" and adjust accordingly.
I have literally seen a pushing Jinx die to a Shyvana ganking through wards. I'm not criticising the general "pushing" strategy, but when you're an AD carry without an escape it's inherently risky.
And yes, starting with a support does help prevent ganks, but wards aren't permanent and aren't unlimited. It's not uncommon (at my skill level) for bot lane to be completely unwarded at the six minute mark, because the supports will have used up all the wards that they started with and not had the opportunity to return to their base.
Tangentially related:
Supports who track wards and let me know when they expire are
"Hey, FYI bot is temporarily unwarded. Feel like getting into a race with our ADC to see who gets the double kill first?"
I have literally seen a pushing Jinx die to a Shyvana ganking through wards. I'm not criticising the general "pushing" strategy, but when you're an AD carry without an escape it's inherently risky.
And yes, starting with a support does help prevent ganks, but wards aren't permanent and aren't unlimited. It's not uncommon (at my skill level) for bot lane to be completely unwarded at the six minute mark, because the supports will have used up all the wards that they started with and not had the opportunity to return to their base.
Tangentially related:
Supports who track wards and let me know when they expire are
"Hey, FYI bot is temporarily unwarded. Feel like getting into a race with our ADC to see who gets the double kill first?"
It is so disheartening when, as a support, you keep track of wards and your jungler pays no attention whatsoever.
Then the enemy jungler predictably shows up at the exact second that your wards expire.
Does shooting from a bush reveal just the shooter or everyone in it? In game people say different stuff. But the common denominator is that everyone is an asshole of you ask questions.
NOOB GO BACK TO BRONZE!
It is worse since ARAM queue has decided to match me to gold and platinum. So I must have team fight mechanics down. But god help you if you ask a question.
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
Support and Jungler are super BFFs. Screw working with your ADC, they're just going to farm and right click anyways. Junglers and Supports are playmakers, and working in tandem they make the most terrifying plays.
I have literally seen a pushing Jinx die to a Shyvana ganking through wards. I'm not criticising the general "pushing" strategy, but when you're an AD carry without an escape it's inherently risky.
And yes, starting with a support does help prevent ganks, but wards aren't permanent and aren't unlimited. It's not uncommon (at my skill level) for bot lane to be completely unwarded at the six minute mark, because the supports will have used up all the wards that they started with and not had the opportunity to return to their base.
If you've been shoving the lane, as soon as your wards die the lane should be at the enemy tower and thus you both go back and voila, more wards are in hand.
Also, if you are like Vi or something and your first gank comes when you have ult and you're going to burn flash and ult JUST to get close enough to ult them, then both the ADC and support should have flash to get away. On top of that, if their lane is shoved to the tower so hard that they're BEHIND it, unless they both have flash and the support has hard CC then you're probably still not going to get a single thing out of that gank.
Like, if the enemy ADC is Vayne, Trist, Cait, or half the other ADCs, they'll just use their escape/knockback on you and walk away from your flash initiate ult. If your lane walks towards them as you're coming in they'll already know what's coming too. Plus, if the enemy jungler just decides to counter gank right then you'll lose the fight in a huge way since your lane is going to be weaker from being pushed on all lane.
If you are shoving so hard the enemy lane can never do anything but farm on tower, it means you're going to have your summoner spells ready for when the enemy jungler wastes his summoners trying to come in to gank. It definitely requires more wards than passive play does. I just don't care. I couldn't tell you the last time I was playing support and my lane died to a jungle gank. I ward EVERY possible entrance path they could possibly want. I don't care if I never get anything besides a sightstone/mobos and an oracles the whole game either. If I win bot lane immensely and waste anybody's time who wants to try to gank my lane and control vision the whole game I win most of the time.
Hah, you are assuming that I end up with a support who actually ward the river and/or the river bush. This does not happen the majority of the time, I think--even in ranked. Or a support who is aware enough to take advantage of their wards, or in general competent enough to not need the tower close by to retreat to.
I think at my elo I am best keeping the lane depushed in the hope of attracting a friendly jungler gank. Alternately, to create opportunities for a favorable 2v2, because I can poke my botlane opponent under tower, but definitely not kill them.
I understand that in general it is good to shove the lane and make opponent miss cs under tower and in general thwack the tower from a safe distance, but recently this has only resulted in death of my support and sometimes me. What I seem to do with Draven as opposed to Caitlyn is keep the creeps about 1/3 to 1/2 up my lane, and then charge and murder the enemy botlane. With Caitlyn, I always end up pushing by accident by piltovering through some creeps, or pushing on purpose because it feels nice to siege their tower. But I am playing at like bronze 2 mmr so my support is not usually particularly helpful and is often actively harmful.
In last night's ranked 5s game, I thought @Roz and I played the first few levels pretty okay (I missed some CS due to sucking, but enemy trist missed CS due to tower, so it was even), but then Trist jump+Fiddlesticks lack of escape gave them an early kill or two. Had we been depushed, I think I could have taken advantage of Fid's fear and gotten a kill off them; also, they wouldn't have had the opportunity for Trist to jump in. Under their tower, I could not at all secure a kill.
Fiddlesticks is one of the best supports to push to tower with. His crows are amazing harass under tower, and since they won't have any lane brush control as soon as it thinks about pushing back your way he can zone them with the threat of a brush ult.
Pushing the lane can be bad if their jungle is highly mobile, or if you are dominating them so hard in lane you want to make it so that they can't cs at all. So they can't even approach the creep line without getting harassed or engaged on, and you starve them of gold or xp for as long as possible, hoping that they have to go back before the wave reaches their tower
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Nothing at all with pushing your lane as long as you have good ward coverage. Moreover, pushing bottom lane forces enemy markscreature to last hit under tower and relieves the rest of the map because jungler will come bottom. If he fail ganks, that's a win for your whole team.
Yeah, MF is good. My go-to for ranked is Sej though. Something like 75% with her atm... I get away with so much craziness on her.
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Now I realize that plat IV is for babies.
Went right from V to III.
Teleport is nice for maximizing your global pressure, but GP isn't the best split-pusher in LoL. Against a team with a strong assassin / engage, I'd run ignite, as a GP split push could easily get you killed. Against a team without 1-2 champions that can insta-kill you, you can probably get away with some split-push-teleport nonsense.
In general, I think planning your lane around rushing GP/10 items is unwise. Using teleport to get an early Avarice Blade? That's still less effective in terms of combat stats than a Doran's Blade, and you're down a summoner's spell and stats for it.
Against, say, Riven with a Doran's Blade start, you're down effective combat stats and you're down a summoner spell. That's basically "free lunch" for any top laner who can play aggressive.
Philo stone is less cost-effective than healing potions for sustain by a huge margin. It has no health and no armor. Getting a philo against Jax or Riven is committing to "farm under tower for 20 minutes" as a strategy. Better to buy items that will actually let you contest the lane, or purchase vision wards and have your jungler feast on Jax and Riven (both easily baited into an all-in due to the nature of their skills).
The best use I've seen for it is harassing the enemy support while they jockey for position in the lane bush. The slow is handy late game for leading off a catch.
Her E is fantastic for a single point, and her ult is very satisfying.
he was on my team and ended up 14/3 and i won the series.
but aq jungle shaco and a support lux on a team and it goes well, maybe i should buy a lottery ticket today.
Joe's Stream.
If you are Vayne, your support is Janna, the enemy bot lane is Sona/Jinx. What possesses you to do all of the following?
a) start Condemn at level 1
b) wait for your Janna to enter the river to ward the enemy tribush
c) Flash forward and condemn Sona into the wall
d) continue to try to fight as Janna drops the ward in tribush
e) get exhausted
f) get slaughtered by half HP Sona and full HP Jinx
How are you at my MMR, magical mystery bullshit ADC player? In what twisted brain fantasy does that result in anything other than your death? That's like six mistakes in one play. If she'd just backed off after the condemn (and maybe not fucking Flashed for it, it would have been a very successful trade.
So, of course, by the time she gets back to lane we are levels 2 and 1 against a pair of level 3s and now Jinx has a huge gold advantage and Sona has a huge vision advantage 'cause she can afford two extra pinks. Lane was lost at 3 minutes.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
It's true!
I thought those plat people were meant to carry our scrub asses; instead we all just fed uncontrollably except for Malphite, who, to be fair, was possibly eschewing teamfights in order to farm top.
Um, right, so actually I have discovered that I am more terrible than I thought, because if I can't win lane with a plat support, then clearly the problem is very much on my side.
Temporary solution: drop Caitlyn for Draven. (side benefit: stop pushing the lane so damn much).
But if I first pick Draven (because I seem to be team captain and don't have a deep champion pool to trade with), it that terrible? I don't think so, but I haven't played enough to know the counterpicks. I guess Caitlyn is kind of a problem? But that can't be true, because when I am Caitlyn, I don't like it when the enemy picks Draven. Hmm.
Draven really likes to charge at Caitlyn to steal her hat.
there are good and bad players at every elo
yesterday I had a trist spend the entire laning phase trading back and forth (and dying to) a support teemo while their adc corki just contentedly farmed away
she was very determined
after each death she would return to lane, sure that this time she would defeat that wily teemo
GP's E costs the exact same amount of mana as Parley, and Parley refunds half mana if it kills a creep. IMO there are only 2 valid choices for maxing in lane on GP, and that's Q and W. Q if you can bully the other person with parley, or W if you are going to build mana/armor first and just farm because his W heal base is pretty damn good. 360 HP at max rank.
Also, if you max E at level 9 you have 1.5 doran's blades worth of passive AD and 7% move speed. And if you hit E for the better bonuses for 7 seconds, now you get 13 seconds of nothing and your parley and heal don't do shit. I can't imagine a GP not losing basically every lane against almost anybody if they maxed E first.
cait doesn't push the lane?
Yes, you have to always have wards down if you're going to keep it pushed, and yes you will have to buy pinks/oracles if the other support is spending all their gold to try to create opportunities for his jungler, but you should also always have the enemy bot lane behind on CS, and if you're landing your skills while they try to farm on tower they should also always be less health than you so any gank will either be impotent or your jungler will counter gank and your team picks up multiple kills and probably a dragon for free.
i hate the advice of "don't push the lane", i think that it causes all sorts of problems. better advice would be "push the lane safely" meaning that you can shove all you want with proper ward coverage, and it's your advantage to do so.
Joe's Stream.
Slowly but surely.
7/1/1 against Jax was nice though.
Though hilariously when he was 0/2/1 and I was 2/1/1 and up in cs he tried to 1v1 me twice in a row, with my ult up.
Then I see in allchat "WTF Renekton so op"
I want Season 4 really badly. This meta is the lames. Riot plz.
meta pls
As Sivir, with my 500 range, can I get a huge attack speed buff for free plz riot?
@credeiki Caitlyn is one of the safest first pick adcs. She doesn't have any hard counters, but hard counters several of the common carries. If you want some pointers, watch some of Jaefs videos, he is a really good Caitlyn (twitch.tv/jaefster). Also, you don't have to be first pick. Let someone else on the team make the ranked lobby and they'll be first pick.
Yes, us terrible terrible babies.
That was the fun thing about my lane... I died to a super extended gank(Jax hid in his bushes while yi farmed for, like, two whole lanes).
And then I basically had Jax killed 1v1 in lane when cho showed up and Jax decided to try to juke through my bushes just as cho arived, finally getting the damn kill.
And then it just got out of control from there.
EDIT: What got me into this habit was, I used to run flash/ignite on Lux. And then I realized that instead of trying to futz with Ignite and slivering people instead, I could just take teleport and have that much more sustain + more DPS from itemization. Ignite doesn't kill people, forcing them out of lane and landing clutch shots with your laser kills people. Similarly, for GP, I don't really try to kill people, I just get shiv and force them to B.
There is nothing wrong with pushing lane, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a dumbface/head/butt/goose.
My only regret is that I have but one "Agree" to give this post.
Teleport is so powerful when the opposing team is running a split push/ your team is organized to make plays off of your own split push.
When to push your lane: When you're in bot lane with a support who is literally buying as a first item a stone that births wards.
or if they have a zed I guess
Not entirely true.
Junglers willing to burn a summoner spell can engage from outside ward vision range.
Vi, Jarvan, Sejuani, and Zac are all capable of engaging from outside ward vision range by using a flash in tandem with tier initiations. Support Thresh increases this list to "everyone in the game."
Many other junglers can approach through wards fast enough to force an engage by using Ghost. Hobo Bear and Magic Pony in particular come to mind.
Which isn't to say "don't push," because there are many advantages of pushing bot lane, but it isn't risk-free. Make sure to coordinate with your mid and jungler, as pushing bot requires both to be ready for 3v3 or 4v4 teamfights.
Not disagreeing with your advice, which I think is sound, just adding a big * to it. Pushing bot hard while your jungler is busy trying to salvage a bad top lane and mid is farming under their tower is suicide.
And yes, starting with a support does help prevent ganks, but wards aren't permanent and aren't unlimited. It's not uncommon (at my skill level) for bot lane to be completely unwarded at the six minute mark, because the supports will have used up all the wards that they started with and not had the opportunity to return to their base.
You're assuming the ward's just in the bush.
What if as purple there's one at the dragon pit and one in the tri?
Or on blue side there's one at their blue and one at dragon pit?
That list goes down a ton then.
Not really, from my perspective (usually Jungler), let's say I'm running Vi or Udyr (two most common picks for me):
Vi: I can approach from directly behind turret in lane (no realistic way to ward here). Charge Q, flash, I can go from "outside vision" to "within ultimate range" using those two abilities. That's a huge investment (Flash, Q, R) just to start a fight, but if I know bot lane is pushed hard and doesn't have anyone nearby to back them up, I'm happy to trade my flash to force two flashes from bot or to get a kill if anyone doesn't flash immediately.
I can also use Q to slowly sneak through dragon pit from behind. Lee Sin can do the same with ward hopping.
If I'm purple side, I can charge Q in the bush behind tower, flash, Q, then R, same forced initiation. Obviously not effective if your support wards the tri inside purple side jungle.
Jarvan and Zac can do similar, advance with abilities, flash, ult to force a fast fight. Not an efficient use of abilities, but if you know for sure its a 2v3 it can be a good trade.
Udyr: Get my speed stack going, run swiftness or mobility boots, and detour towards lane by approaching through edge of opposing jungle as far as possible. Pop ghost as soon as I'm in ward range and have bottom initiate as I do so, enemy bot now has to choose between immediately burning all disengage abilities to avoid a 3v2 or trying to salvage a winning fight before fastbear can arrive.
Udyr or Hecarim can just use ghost to plow through a ward and rush you. If the opposing enemy bot has any initiation at all, you'll be required to flash out.
Again, like I said before, I'm not saying "don't push bot." Push bot! Its great, it is good advice, the benefits of pushing bot have been explained quite well. A pushed lane creates incredible opportunities for your jungler to invade or sneak into lane. Pushing forces bot to commit to protecting their turret or you can take it fast! Just remember that it does open you to some risks, and if the enemy mid or jungler have been MIA for a while and you don't have any backup nearby and their summoner spells and ultimates are up, well, maybe weigh the advantage of "push turret" against the risk of "can we win a 2v3 or 2v4?" and adjust accordingly.
Tangentially related:
Supports who track wards and let me know when they expire are
"Hey, FYI bot is temporarily unwarded. Feel like getting into a race with our ADC to see who gets the double kill first?"
It is so disheartening when, as a support, you keep track of wards and your jungler pays no attention whatsoever.
Then the enemy jungler predictably shows up at the exact second that your wards expire.
NOOB GO BACK TO BRONZE!
It is worse since ARAM queue has decided to match me to gold and platinum. So I must have team fight mechanics down. But god help you if you ask a question.
but they're listening to every word I say
If you've been shoving the lane, as soon as your wards die the lane should be at the enemy tower and thus you both go back and voila, more wards are in hand.
Also, if you are like Vi or something and your first gank comes when you have ult and you're going to burn flash and ult JUST to get close enough to ult them, then both the ADC and support should have flash to get away. On top of that, if their lane is shoved to the tower so hard that they're BEHIND it, unless they both have flash and the support has hard CC then you're probably still not going to get a single thing out of that gank.
Like, if the enemy ADC is Vayne, Trist, Cait, or half the other ADCs, they'll just use their escape/knockback on you and walk away from your flash initiate ult. If your lane walks towards them as you're coming in they'll already know what's coming too. Plus, if the enemy jungler just decides to counter gank right then you'll lose the fight in a huge way since your lane is going to be weaker from being pushed on all lane.
If you are shoving so hard the enemy lane can never do anything but farm on tower, it means you're going to have your summoner spells ready for when the enemy jungler wastes his summoners trying to come in to gank. It definitely requires more wards than passive play does. I just don't care. I couldn't tell you the last time I was playing support and my lane died to a jungle gank. I ward EVERY possible entrance path they could possibly want. I don't care if I never get anything besides a sightstone/mobos and an oracles the whole game either. If I win bot lane immensely and waste anybody's time who wants to try to gank my lane and control vision the whole game I win most of the time.
I think at my elo I am best keeping the lane depushed in the hope of attracting a friendly jungler gank. Alternately, to create opportunities for a favorable 2v2, because I can poke my botlane opponent under tower, but definitely not kill them.
I understand that in general it is good to shove the lane and make opponent miss cs under tower and in general thwack the tower from a safe distance, but recently this has only resulted in death of my support and sometimes me. What I seem to do with Draven as opposed to Caitlyn is keep the creeps about 1/3 to 1/2 up my lane, and then charge and murder the enemy botlane. With Caitlyn, I always end up pushing by accident by piltovering through some creeps, or pushing on purpose because it feels nice to siege their tower. But I am playing at like bronze 2 mmr so my support is not usually particularly helpful and is often actively harmful.
In last night's ranked 5s game, I thought @Roz and I played the first few levels pretty okay (I missed some CS due to sucking, but enemy trist missed CS due to tower, so it was even), but then Trist jump+Fiddlesticks lack of escape gave them an early kill or two. Had we been depushed, I think I could have taken advantage of Fid's fear and gotten a kill off them; also, they wouldn't have had the opportunity for Trist to jump in. Under their tower, I could not at all secure a kill.