I dunno, when the formal name of your country is a 1984 style doublethink maybe totalitarian isn't the worst word to describe your government
Fortunately the name chosen for a country six decades ago doesn't decide if it's totalitarian or not. The last 30 years has been the government generally relinquishing control over people's lives not seeking to increase it. That is literally the opposite of a totalitarian regime.
I dunno, when the formal name of your country is a 1984 style doublethink maybe totalitarian isn't the worst word to describe your government
Fortunately the name chosen for a country six decades ago doesn't decide if it's totalitarian or not. The last 30 years has been the government generally relinquishing control over people's lives not seeking to increase it. That is literally the opposite of a totalitarian regime.
They have the worlds most sophisticated web censorship network, that was certainly made within the last 30 years.
But the general point you're making stands, they aren't allowing communist principles to get in the way of making money anymore.
I dunno, when the formal name of your country is a 1984 style doublethink maybe totalitarian isn't the worst word to describe your government
Fortunately the name chosen for a country six decades ago doesn't decide if it's totalitarian or not. The last 30 years has been the government generally relinquishing control over people's lives not seeking to increase it. That is literally the opposite of a totalitarian regime.
They have the worlds most sophisticated web censorship network, that was certainly made within the last 30 years.
But the general point you're making stands, they aren't allowing communist principles to get in the way of making money anymore.
Technically, @Quid may be referring to the rapid expansion in meaningful political races in local/prefectural authorities, which has actually expanded a lot since the 1970s and onwards (though was originally called for in the post-Civil War law and 1954 constitution, but wasn't implemented until much later.
Though yes, ideology is not impeding economic growth. And that by itself is actually a very poor indicator of expanding or declining totalitarian government--look at Pinochet's Chile, Chiang's Taiwan, military South Korea or any number of business-friendly capitalist dictatorships.
I am going to join @Quid on this one China is not a totalitarian state it is an authoritarian state. Words especially when it comes to describing regimes are pretty specific for a reason.
China in general has been pulling out of social and personal life control but has maintained general control on the news media(this includes the internet), finances, housing to an extent and some of the major corporations. But they are slowly rolling back the one child policy and have removed a lot of the hallmarks of local control through a few very controlled elections. I would say maybe China back during some of the 1960's was more totalitarian than it is now. Now though it is very much an authoritarian state.
I mean these are fine lines but really there is a difference between the two. I would also argue that one of the big issues is the defining ideology of China is no longer the traditional totalitarian style that permeates everything unless you change the ideology from "Maoist Communism" to "Liberal capitalism and nationalism."
Continuing saga of airspace control China is now launching fighters to follow US, SK, and Japanese military and other aircraft in the area. No one is confirming the Japanese fighters did follow their planes but they are not denying it.
Sorry for the link being USA Today, story is out of the AP.
And lo, the glorious cycle of "No fuck you" continues.
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gavindelThe reason all your softwareis brokenRegistered Userregular
edited November 2013
Chinese nationalism feels to me a lot like the Tea Party in America. A useful political tool that accidentally raised a generation of true believers. When Chinese students hold protests over events like the war shrine in Japan, the authorities passively allow it as a way to blow off steam. Problem is, after 20 years of this, some percentage are really going to start believing it.
Unfortunately, i don't have the book I'm thinking of since I lent it out to a friend. I remember it had a red cover, and it spoke extensively on how many of the political decisions in China are made by a tiny cabal of PRC members who are very, very aware that any internal schism could quickly destroy their entire framework. They can't just out and out wave the issue of Japan away, not after fanning the flames. What if the energy and anger of those young mobs turned from "harmless" fun and directed itself at the PRC itself?
So, just like every other country, they must now commence with a few months of meaningless military postures to sate their internal audience that they are not, in fact, pansy sissy baby wimps. Only with the added paranoia of waiting every day with baited breath for the next Tiananmen, sparked by the very nationalism they created.
Edit: I should add that, on the whole, Japan is an exceedingly "safe" target for anger. Chinese-Japanese commerce is not the heart of their economic engine. There is historical bad blood from WW2 to feed off for legitimacy. There is no notable Japanese minority to rebel directly against their verbal abuse. Its like yelling at the newscaster - safe, distant, convenient.
I would like to point out that Japan is China's 2nd largest import partner and 4th largest exporter but that is including Hong Kong as a separate entity. Chinese Japanese trade relations are very important to both countries.
Japan is also one of China's largest foreign investors though that has been dropping recently due to the relations issue. It isn't a safe target outside both sides actually require each other at the moment to prevent a complete collapse.
I have a few books worth reading but in general look for stuff written or edited by Suisheng Zhao. Guy is a beast with both Chinese FP and Chinese internal politics.
Continuing saga of airspace control China is now launching fighters to follow US, SK, and Japanese military and other aircraft in the area. No one is confirming the Japanese fighters did follow their planes but they are not denying it.
Sorry for the link being USA Today, story is out of the AP.
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength. This is going to be a dick waving competition, with China most likely going to back down(they're going to demand "something" in return to save face, but who knows what and if they'd even get it) when US+Japan show that they're not likely to back down and they've got the bigger dick in this fight.
Seems kinda dumb for China to do this now; they'd benefit for sitting quiet for another decade or two. Their aircraft carrier program would have been in full swing with indigenous designs coming online, they've been making headway with their relations with S. Korea(while Japan and S.Korea's relationships have been worsening). Instead they're doing it with a carrier and a fighter wing of questionable value, and forcing the US+Japan+S. Korea back into a closer relationship. I can only guess there's someone in China who thought a show of strength would be good for some form of internal politics or something, but I think it's going to blow up in their face.
does anyone really think something will come of this.
in a year they will all probably be hashing out an agreement.
probably something along the lines of a partnership for exploration of mineral and oil wealth between japan and china.
The problem isn't that either side will intentionally do anything, it's that someone will paint themselves in a corner (we have to shoot down a plane or we look week) or that there will be an incident between the two sides (some hot shot nationalist pilot fire's a missile without orders/someone believes that the other side is attempting to engage).
Its kinda like all the Korean drama, but this time both sides are completely sane (thank god).
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength.
Er, it moved to the south sea for training and went nowhere near the Senkakus on the way. It wasn't a show of force in any way beyond "We have an aircraft carrier and are escorting it south" is a show of force.
Which is to say that it is a show of force. But not quite the one you seem to be implying.
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength.
Er, it moved to the south sea for training and went nowhere near the Senkakus on the way. It wasn't a show of force in any way beyond "We have an aircraft carrier and are escorting it south" is a show of force.
Which is to say that it is a show of force. But not quite the one you seem to be implying.
Isn't the south china sea roiled with territorial disputes too?
Like not to gang up on china but the map of territory they claim in the area cant possibly be right.
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength.
Er, it moved to the south sea for training and went nowhere near the Senkakus on the way. It wasn't a show of force in any way beyond "We have an aircraft carrier and are escorting it south" is a show of force.
Which is to say that it is a show of force. But not quite the one you seem to be implying.
Isn't the south china sea roiled with territorial disputes too?
Like not to gang up on china but the map of territory they claim in the area cant possibly be right.
It was hilarious, they basically claim the entire south China sea up to about a mile off the surrounding nations coast lines.
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength.
Er, it moved to the south sea for training and went nowhere near the Senkakus on the way. It wasn't a show of force in any way beyond "We have an aircraft carrier and are escorting it south" is a show of force.
Which is to say that it is a show of force. But not quite the one you seem to be implying.
Isn't the south china sea roiled with territorial disputes too?
Like not to gang up on china but the map of territory they claim in the area cant possibly be right.
The East China Sea claims have more ground to stand on then than a lot of the South China Sea Claims or their claims against Vietnam.
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength.
Er, it moved to the south sea for training and went nowhere near the Senkakus on the way. It wasn't a show of force in any way beyond "We have an aircraft carrier and are escorting it south" is a show of force.
Which is to say that it is a show of force. But not quite the one you seem to be implying.
Isn't the south china sea roiled with territorial disputes too?
Like not to gang up on china but the map of territory they claim in the area cant possibly be right.
Sure. But we were talking about the dispute with the Senkaku islands which are definitely not in the south.
To settle this disagreement Japan and Chine should just choose the two islands with the closest elevation and then have a competition of who can pour the most shit on top of it, highest island wins. Both countries get to wave their dicks around, the world gets an entertaining spectacle and it'll probably end up being cheaper than all the military shenanigans, I can't see a flaw to this plan.
Which one is the island on which they keep having to pour concrete to stop it sinking below the waves while they fight over to whom it belongs?
Like the Falklands dispute and recent Russian adventures in the Arctic, the landmasses themselves matter much less compared to the resources in the sea around them. They're useful as a symbol to rally the populace around and whip up internal support for government policy/distract from governmental problems, but in the end it's a game of who has access to untapped sources of dwindling deposits.
While the depiction of Japan as liberating Asia from European colonialism in WWII is pretty propagandistic, I don't think it's any more biased or inaccurate than US history's presentation of the Japanese as Evil Villains
B-but they were Evil Villains! Cannibalism? The "Three Alls" policy? Unit 731? The Rape of Nanking? The torture of captured soldiers? Comfort women? Slave labour?
I'm not saying the Allies were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to the Japanese. We didn't fucking eat people or spray plague-infested fleas over cities.
And which country? Climate change is doing this to a number of places. Venice strikes out to me as the most visible example.
To clarify - some of these "islands" are literally rocks that 3 people could stand on if they don't mind waves hitting them in the face if the wind picks up.
This has less to do with climate change affecting sea levels and more to do with objects being inappropriately named "islands" as part of a dick waving contest.
Is there something the United States can do to block US passports from working on trips to North Korea? I swear, they're throwing their lives away going to that hellhole. Or at least sign their life away in a contract saying they understand they will be kidnapped and raped for breathing. Tourism undermines the sanctions.
I can take a tour from South Korea to the DMZ and JSA for fifty USD, and step in North Korea via the JSA office and not be kidnapped, but oh, no....
NK's very existence makes my skin crawl. Escaped defectors spill everything in front of the UN and NK can just keep going "the whole universe is lying except me" and nobody can do a thing because China, when South Korea is their superior trading partner. South Korea brings them trade, North Korea brings them meth. Sanctions don't work like they worked on Iran because NK is more than happy to let their people eat each other (metaphorically of course, its a crime to kill, or commit suicide, because NK needs its slaves). The government can raise a finger when their in their meth fueled death-throes and take Seoul with it via ancient artillery.
I hope they all OD on their meth. They're a fucking disease and I hope Un joins his descendants in hell.
In happier news, the new $100 USD bill has a lot of fancy technology hidden behind it specifically to stop counterfeiting, because it is the most counterfeited bill in the world, with North Korea being one of its fans. http://dailyinfographic.com/meet-the-new-100-dollar-bill-infographic
More happy news, I'm learning Korean, and Hangul really is as easy to learn as they say it is. In eight hours worth of classes I can speak whatever I read. Now its a matter of building up a vocabulary.
While the depiction of Japan as liberating Asia from European colonialism in WWII is pretty propagandistic, I don't think it's any more biased or inaccurate than US history's presentation of the Japanese as Evil Villains
B-but they were Evil Villains! Cannibalism? The "Three Alls" policy? Unit 731? The Rape of Nanking? The torture of captured soldiers? Comfort women? Slave labour?
I'm not saying the Allies were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to the Japanese. We didn't fucking eat people or spray plague-infested fleas over cities.
Yeah dude, The Japanese military government didn't even give a shit about Japanese lives. Enemy non-combatants didn't even rate becoming statistics.
Its telling that the US government spent more time debating the morality of Nuclear bombings then the Japanese did on the victims of said bombing.
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
While the depiction of Japan as liberating Asia from European colonialism in WWII is pretty propagandistic, I don't think it's any more biased or inaccurate than US history's presentation of the Japanese as Evil Villains
B-but they were Evil Villains! Cannibalism? The "Three Alls" policy? Unit 731? The Rape of Nanking? The torture of captured soldiers? Comfort women? Slave labour?
I'm not saying the Allies were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to the Japanese. We didn't fucking eat people or spray plague-infested fleas over cities.
Yeah dude, The Japanese military government didn't even give a shit about Japanese lives. Enemy non-combatants didn't even rate becoming statistics.
Its telling that the US government spent more time debating the morality of Nuclear bombings then the Japanese did on the victims of said bombing.
While the depiction of Japan as liberating Asia from European colonialism in WWII is pretty propagandistic, I don't think it's any more biased or inaccurate than US history's presentation of the Japanese as Evil Villains
B-but they were Evil Villains! Cannibalism? The "Three Alls" policy? Unit 731? The Rape of Nanking? The torture of captured soldiers? Comfort women? Slave labour?
I'm not saying the Allies were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to the Japanese. We didn't fucking eat people or spray plague-infested fleas over cities.
I'd be a bit careful about framing it like this: since we have plenty of historic evidence of executions of captured Japanese POWs (the ones who actually did surrender), forced sexual slavery (in Japan and France), and very curious American practices done to the Japanese war dead that do shock the senses by themselves. For example, the decapitation of dead bodies and the conversion of skulls into curio items and bowls. The conversion of dried ears into war trophy necklaces. One American military radio program's host advertised a popular contest wherein the soldier who sent in enough Japanese fingers (or ears? I'm pretty sure it was fingers) got a novelty poster of a popular American starlet.
I'm not disagreeing with the scope of Japanese war atrocities in the least (I've even demonstrated previously I'm pretty content to talk about the gritty details, and have recommended Chang's The Rape of Nanking alongside the older The Best War Ever to Anglophones interested in the topic along with ), but if I went "I'm not saying the Red Army were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to Germany. They didn't shoot people for sport or destroy entire cities." I think I'd sound pretty crazy. Technically correct, but crazy. Especially in the context of trying to find contemporary solutions to worsening relations.
A lot of the folks who head to NK do it through kind of the gray market means but we actually do try to discourage people from going. The reason we don't stop the visas is it gives an idea who is heading there and when they should be out so we can track our own citizens. Not doing that would still probably lead many of the folks who do go in to still go in but without us knowing which could be much worse in the long run. NK is pretty creepy but it is better to keep tabs on them than not.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
I really can't blame China for propping up North Korea as they do. Think about this from China's perspective: would you want that crap spilling over your borders if/when the regime collapsed? Ten-twenty million starving crazed people who have been so cut off from the outside world that some defectors to South Korea, who left under their own will and power under threat of death and enslavement of their families because they knew how bad they had it, try to go back because they cannot cope with the change? Defectors are often the better educated and well-off then general North Koreans and the trickle that goes through the borders end up as a permanent underclass, women forced into prostitution and men into manual labor because their skills and education are worthless outside NK. And that's just dealing with a thousands. Twenty million people like that flooding the border all at once. Imagine that. Imagine the giant clusterfuck that would be in the border regions, feeding them, trying to educate them, dealing with all the medical and emotional problems the refugees would have from fleeing the collapse of a regime. That's not even dealing with who-knows-what kinds of weapon stockpiles would be left lying around NK for any low-ranking officer who has sudden warlord pretensions to take and start using.
Look at that from China's perspective, sweating over the worst case scenarios, and it makes sense that they would have a policy of, "maybe if we throw food at them they'll leave us alone." Although China's actually been getting pretty pissed at NK recently, particularly from the whole, "they're taking the relief off the trains and then keeping the trains too" thing.
the funny thing is that the countries that tend to be the best at getting to under sea oil and mineral deposits tend to be U.S. or European I want to say Japan as-well but im not sure.
so even if china does get access to them they still might have to rely on western countries to extract them.
Is there something the United States can do to block US passports from working on trips to North Korea? I swear, they're throwing their lives away going to that hellhole. Or at least sign their life away in a contract saying they understand they will be kidnapped and raped for breathing. Tourism undermines the sanctions.
I can take a tour from South Korea to the DMZ and JSA for fifty USD, and step in North Korea via the JSA office and not be kidnapped, but oh, no....
NK's very existence makes my skin crawl. Escaped defectors spill everything in front of the UN and NK can just keep going "the whole universe is lying except me" and nobody can do a thing because China, when South Korea is their superior trading partner. South Korea brings them trade, North Korea brings them meth. Sanctions don't work like they worked on Iran because NK is more than happy to let their people eat each other (metaphorically of course, its a crime to kill, or commit suicide, because NK needs its slaves). The government can raise a finger when their in their meth fueled death-throes and take Seoul with it via ancient artillery.
I hope they all OD on their meth. They're a fucking disease and I hope Un joins his descendants in hell.
In happier news, the new $100 USD bill has a lot of fancy technology hidden behind it specifically to stop counterfeiting, because it is the most counterfeited bill in the world, with North Korea being one of its fans. http://dailyinfographic.com/meet-the-new-100-dollar-bill-infographic
More happy news, I'm learning Korean, and Hangul really is as easy to learn as they say it is. In eight hours worth of classes I can speak whatever I read. Now its a matter of building up a vocabulary.
you know the funny thing is they probably like the fact that half their people are starving.
revolutions and rebellions are really hard when you way 90 lbs or less.
the funny thing is that the countries that tend to be the best at getting to under sea oil and mineral deposits tend to be U.S. or European I want to say Japan as-well but im not sure.
so even if china does get access to them they still might have to rely on western countries to extract them.
I could be totally wrong about that
It's not going to be the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company exactly. For starters, it'd take anyone years, including China, before they could even begin exploiting the area.
Given the value China's government puts on their own citizens I actually really doubt they care about more people showing up on their border so much as the U.S. possibly getting a foothold on their border.
Given the value China's government puts on their own citizens I actually really doubt they care about more people showing up on their border so much as the U.S. possibly getting a foothold on their border.
Indeed. Clearly, they don't care about social order or tens of millions of refugees flooding one or two provinces in a matter of days. That's just regular business.
Now, half the world's military spending gaining a foothold about 300 kilometers northwest, less than an hour by travel time by the largest bomber force in the world, from their current fortress? I'm sure that's much scarier.
EDIT:
Returning back to the original topic, I ended up speaking to my aunt in Taiwan about the Diaoyu Islands. The population is going to run a gamut of opinions, but I was surprised by how commonplace sympathy with the Chinese claim, versus the Japanese claim, was among the general population (as oppose to amateur political scientists). It could be entirely self-serving: Taiwan has no chance in the arena, but considering the nature of China's claim, it's seen as potentially beneficial, both in the short term (cross-strait industrial investment and trade) and in the long term (as an geographic division in a future Taiwan that is part of China). But, then again, the claims are probably self-serving in general. I'll need to get the opinions of some younger people, see if they're similar.
the funny thing is that the countries that tend to be the best at getting to under sea oil and mineral deposits tend to be U.S. or European I want to say Japan as-well but im not sure.
so even if china does get access to them they still might have to rely on western countries to extract them.
I could be totally wrong about that
Its not like its some magic knowledge for westerners only; they can simply buy the training, equipment, and expertise over the coming decade. You see lots of japanese and chinese companies already sending teams to learn at the hubs of upstream experience.
Listening to the ambassador from the RoC(Taiwan) last month at a talk at George Washington Taiwan officially is staying out of the Senkaku/Daioyu outside of trying to be a moderator. This is mostly because they stand in this interesting international legal standing of an independent nation but not actually be legal recognized as an independent nation in the legal system. He really brought up the fishing rights thing and that Taiwan has reached out to leaders of both China and Japan and said they want to come to a negotiated settlement which they moderate as an independent third party. This of course won't fly with Beijing and Japan is kind of bleh on this.
On NK imploding actually from what I get from the Koreans I know this is what is considered the best course for SK. The feeling is lots of funds will come in like they did to Germany with reunification. Plus it reduces the chance of a war or a NK that gets brought into political acceptability. I don't fully but it, cleaning NK will be a generation project at least.
China wants NK the way it is. Weak, annoying but not flooding it with issues. Of course Chinese guards on the NK border have a shoot to kill orders for people illegally crossing. China would give 0 fucks about gunning down NK refugees if the regime collapses. But it is more they lose a nice buffer state verse the US and Japan. SK may get annoyed at Japan but they are still heavily connected to the US bases on Okinawa.
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Heh, compared to the original Republic of China, even today the PRC is super populist. But that's a very low hurdle to clear.
Fortunately the name chosen for a country six decades ago doesn't decide if it's totalitarian or not. The last 30 years has been the government generally relinquishing control over people's lives not seeking to increase it. That is literally the opposite of a totalitarian regime.
They have the worlds most sophisticated web censorship network, that was certainly made within the last 30 years.
But the general point you're making stands, they aren't allowing communist principles to get in the way of making money anymore.
Technically, @Quid may be referring to the rapid expansion in meaningful political races in local/prefectural authorities, which has actually expanded a lot since the 1970s and onwards (though was originally called for in the post-Civil War law and 1954 constitution, but wasn't implemented until much later.
Though yes, ideology is not impeding economic growth. And that by itself is actually a very poor indicator of expanding or declining totalitarian government--look at Pinochet's Chile, Chiang's Taiwan, military South Korea or any number of business-friendly capitalist dictatorships.
China in general has been pulling out of social and personal life control but has maintained general control on the news media(this includes the internet), finances, housing to an extent and some of the major corporations. But they are slowly rolling back the one child policy and have removed a lot of the hallmarks of local control through a few very controlled elections. I would say maybe China back during some of the 1960's was more totalitarian than it is now. Now though it is very much an authoritarian state.
I mean these are fine lines but really there is a difference between the two. I would also argue that one of the big issues is the defining ideology of China is no longer the traditional totalitarian style that permeates everything unless you change the ideology from "Maoist Communism" to "Liberal capitalism and nationalism."
Sorry for the link being USA Today, story is out of the AP.
Chinese confirm fighters in air defense zone
Unfortunately, i don't have the book I'm thinking of since I lent it out to a friend. I remember it had a red cover, and it spoke extensively on how many of the political decisions in China are made by a tiny cabal of PRC members who are very, very aware that any internal schism could quickly destroy their entire framework. They can't just out and out wave the issue of Japan away, not after fanning the flames. What if the energy and anger of those young mobs turned from "harmless" fun and directed itself at the PRC itself?
So, just like every other country, they must now commence with a few months of meaningless military postures to sate their internal audience that they are not, in fact, pansy sissy baby wimps. Only with the added paranoia of waiting every day with baited breath for the next Tiananmen, sparked by the very nationalism they created.
Edit: I should add that, on the whole, Japan is an exceedingly "safe" target for anger. Chinese-Japanese commerce is not the heart of their economic engine. There is historical bad blood from WW2 to feed off for legitimacy. There is no notable Japanese minority to rebel directly against their verbal abuse. Its like yelling at the newscaster - safe, distant, convenient.
in a year they will all probably be hashing out an agreement.
probably something along the lines of a partnership for exploration of mineral and oil wealth between japan and china.
Japan is also one of China's largest foreign investors though that has been dropping recently due to the relations issue. It isn't a safe target outside both sides actually require each other at the moment to prevent a complete collapse.
EU Report on trade for 2012, look at China and the World
I have a few books worth reading but in general look for stuff written or edited by Suisheng Zhao. Guy is a beast with both Chinese FP and Chinese internal politics.
I would find it more likely that oil and research platforms are built passive aggressively close to one another.
To add to this, the Liaoning(China's sole aircraft carrier) has been moved into the area with a small escort for "training missions". Almost kinda "cute" trying to pretend that it's carrier group is anything close to a US carrier group as a threat/display of strength. This is going to be a dick waving competition, with China most likely going to back down(they're going to demand "something" in return to save face, but who knows what and if they'd even get it) when US+Japan show that they're not likely to back down and they've got the bigger dick in this fight.
Seems kinda dumb for China to do this now; they'd benefit for sitting quiet for another decade or two. Their aircraft carrier program would have been in full swing with indigenous designs coming online, they've been making headway with their relations with S. Korea(while Japan and S.Korea's relationships have been worsening). Instead they're doing it with a carrier and a fighter wing of questionable value, and forcing the US+Japan+S. Korea back into a closer relationship. I can only guess there's someone in China who thought a show of strength would be good for some form of internal politics or something, but I think it's going to blow up in their face.
The problem isn't that either side will intentionally do anything, it's that someone will paint themselves in a corner (we have to shoot down a plane or we look week) or that there will be an incident between the two sides (some hot shot nationalist pilot fire's a missile without orders/someone believes that the other side is attempting to engage).
Its kinda like all the Korean drama, but this time both sides are completely sane (thank god).
Er, it moved to the south sea for training and went nowhere near the Senkakus on the way. It wasn't a show of force in any way beyond "We have an aircraft carrier and are escorting it south" is a show of force.
Which is to say that it is a show of force. But not quite the one you seem to be implying.
Isn't the south china sea roiled with territorial disputes too?
Like not to gang up on china but the map of territory they claim in the area cant possibly be right.
It was hilarious, they basically claim the entire south China sea up to about a mile off the surrounding nations coast lines.
The East China Sea claims have more ground to stand on then than a lot of the South China Sea Claims or their claims against Vietnam.
Sure. But we were talking about the dispute with the Senkaku islands which are definitely not in the south.
And which country? Climate change is doing this to a number of places. Venice strikes out to me as the most visible example.
Like the Falklands dispute and recent Russian adventures in the Arctic, the landmasses themselves matter much less compared to the resources in the sea around them. They're useful as a symbol to rally the populace around and whip up internal support for government policy/distract from governmental problems, but in the end it's a game of who has access to untapped sources of dwindling deposits.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
B-but they were Evil Villains! Cannibalism? The "Three Alls" policy? Unit 731? The Rape of Nanking? The torture of captured soldiers? Comfort women? Slave labour?
I'm not saying the Allies were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to the Japanese. We didn't fucking eat people or spray plague-infested fleas over cities.
This has less to do with climate change affecting sea levels and more to do with objects being inappropriately named "islands" as part of a dick waving contest.
I can take a tour from South Korea to the DMZ and JSA for fifty USD, and step in North Korea via the JSA office and not be kidnapped, but oh, no....
The 85 year old Korean War Veteran just released a "confession" for fighting in the Korean War.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/n-korea-releases-information-on-us-tourist-held-for-more-than-a-month/2013/11/30/c20ea404-5989-11e3-bdbf-097ab2a3dc2b_story.html
NK's very existence makes my skin crawl. Escaped defectors spill everything in front of the UN and NK can just keep going "the whole universe is lying except me" and nobody can do a thing because China, when South Korea is their superior trading partner. South Korea brings them trade, North Korea brings them meth. Sanctions don't work like they worked on Iran because NK is more than happy to let their people eat each other (metaphorically of course, its a crime to kill, or commit suicide, because NK needs its slaves). The government can raise a finger when their in their meth fueled death-throes and take Seoul with it via ancient artillery.
I hope they all OD on their meth. They're a fucking disease and I hope Un joins his descendants in hell.
In happier news, the new $100 USD bill has a lot of fancy technology hidden behind it specifically to stop counterfeiting, because it is the most counterfeited bill in the world, with North Korea being one of its fans.
http://dailyinfographic.com/meet-the-new-100-dollar-bill-infographic
More happy news, I'm learning Korean, and Hangul really is as easy to learn as they say it is. In eight hours worth of classes I can speak whatever I read. Now its a matter of building up a vocabulary.
Yeah dude, The Japanese military government didn't even give a shit about Japanese lives. Enemy non-combatants didn't even rate becoming statistics.
Its telling that the US government spent more time debating the morality of Nuclear bombings then the Japanese did on the victims of said bombing.
Meanwhile in Bangkok.
I'd be a bit careful about framing it like this: since we have plenty of historic evidence of executions of captured Japanese POWs (the ones who actually did surrender), forced sexual slavery (in Japan and France), and very curious American practices done to the Japanese war dead that do shock the senses by themselves. For example, the decapitation of dead bodies and the conversion of skulls into curio items and bowls. The conversion of dried ears into war trophy necklaces. One American military radio program's host advertised a popular contest wherein the soldier who sent in enough Japanese fingers (or ears? I'm pretty sure it was fingers) got a novelty poster of a popular American starlet.
I'm not disagreeing with the scope of Japanese war atrocities in the least (I've even demonstrated previously I'm pretty content to talk about the gritty details, and have recommended Chang's The Rape of Nanking alongside the older The Best War Ever to Anglophones interested in the topic along with ), but if I went "I'm not saying the Red Army were saints during/after the war, but they were nothing compared to Germany. They didn't shoot people for sport or destroy entire cities." I think I'd sound pretty crazy. Technically correct, but crazy. Especially in the context of trying to find contemporary solutions to worsening relations.
I really can't blame China for propping up North Korea as they do. Think about this from China's perspective: would you want that crap spilling over your borders if/when the regime collapsed? Ten-twenty million starving crazed people who have been so cut off from the outside world that some defectors to South Korea, who left under their own will and power under threat of death and enslavement of their families because they knew how bad they had it, try to go back because they cannot cope with the change? Defectors are often the better educated and well-off then general North Koreans and the trickle that goes through the borders end up as a permanent underclass, women forced into prostitution and men into manual labor because their skills and education are worthless outside NK. And that's just dealing with a thousands. Twenty million people like that flooding the border all at once. Imagine that. Imagine the giant clusterfuck that would be in the border regions, feeding them, trying to educate them, dealing with all the medical and emotional problems the refugees would have from fleeing the collapse of a regime. That's not even dealing with who-knows-what kinds of weapon stockpiles would be left lying around NK for any low-ranking officer who has sudden warlord pretensions to take and start using.
Look at that from China's perspective, sweating over the worst case scenarios, and it makes sense that they would have a policy of, "maybe if we throw food at them they'll leave us alone." Although China's actually been getting pretty pissed at NK recently, particularly from the whole, "they're taking the relief off the trains and then keeping the trains too" thing.
so even if china does get access to them they still might have to rely on western countries to extract them.
I could be totally wrong about that
you know the funny thing is they probably like the fact that half their people are starving.
revolutions and rebellions are really hard when you way 90 lbs or less.
It's not going to be the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company exactly. For starters, it'd take anyone years, including China, before they could even begin exploiting the area.
Indeed. Clearly, they don't care about social order or tens of millions of refugees flooding one or two provinces in a matter of days. That's just regular business.
Now, half the world's military spending gaining a foothold about 300 kilometers northwest, less than an hour by travel time by the largest bomber force in the world, from their current fortress? I'm sure that's much scarier.
EDIT:
Returning back to the original topic, I ended up speaking to my aunt in Taiwan about the Diaoyu Islands. The population is going to run a gamut of opinions, but I was surprised by how commonplace sympathy with the Chinese claim, versus the Japanese claim, was among the general population (as oppose to amateur political scientists). It could be entirely self-serving: Taiwan has no chance in the arena, but considering the nature of China's claim, it's seen as potentially beneficial, both in the short term (cross-strait industrial investment and trade) and in the long term (as an geographic division in a future Taiwan that is part of China). But, then again, the claims are probably self-serving in general. I'll need to get the opinions of some younger people, see if they're similar.
Its not like its some magic knowledge for westerners only; they can simply buy the training, equipment, and expertise over the coming decade. You see lots of japanese and chinese companies already sending teams to learn at the hubs of upstream experience.
On NK imploding actually from what I get from the Koreans I know this is what is considered the best course for SK. The feeling is lots of funds will come in like they did to Germany with reunification. Plus it reduces the chance of a war or a NK that gets brought into political acceptability. I don't fully but it, cleaning NK will be a generation project at least.
China wants NK the way it is. Weak, annoying but not flooding it with issues. Of course Chinese guards on the NK border have a shoot to kill orders for people illegally crossing. China would give 0 fucks about gunning down NK refugees if the regime collapses. But it is more they lose a nice buffer state verse the US and Japan. SK may get annoyed at Japan but they are still heavily connected to the US bases on Okinawa.