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[East Asia] - Shinzo Abe shot, killed

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    This is a guy who executed a person with artillery.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    I was about to mention the death by artillery. So could believe the death by starving dogs, maybe not 120, but given North Korea's particularities, I can certainly buy the starving dog part.

    I'm kind of curious of whether China has any safeguards in place or is putting some in place, in the event that the ruler of North Korea finally does something truly insane. If I were them, I'd be trying to either sabotage the artillery or buy off the people manning it. That way, when the shit finally hits the fan, don't have to worry about the current head of NK fucking up the economy.

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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Did the 120 dogs also shoot bees out of their mouths. I think this is the source of the dogs story, which was copied from a Hong Kong newspaper half a month ago. It seems p. biased.
    http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/asia-report/china/story/jangs-execution-bodes-ill-china-20131224

    emnmnme on
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    zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I don't believe he was eaten alive by 120 dogs. I'd believe a firing squad, I'd believe a hanging, I'd even believe beheading with a guillotine but 120 dogs sounds too much like a tall tale.

    It sounds like a tall tale, and making your enemies out as sadistic and incomprehensibly evil is a tried and true propaganda tactic...but at the same time, this is North Korea.

    If he believes his uncle was involved in the assassination attempt back in March, I could completely see some sort of over-the-top demonstration like this. Six people with twenty dogs each? Making a point to the rest of the senior staff? I'd believe it if there was some kind of verification.

    Also, I wouldn't worry about the executed uncle's wife or how she must be feeling / doing. She's Kim Jong-il's full sister, and her marriage was more likely than not an arranged marriage for political purposes than anything we would recognize as some sort of loving relationship. I wouldn't bet against her selling out her own husband, especially as it sounds like she got a major promotion.

    EDIT - Hell, we've got credible accounts of all kinds of crazy executions. Credible reports of artillery and steamrollers, public executions, etc. 'Treason' by a high ranking official would probably merit something extreme.

    zagdrob on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Never heard of the steamroller execution before. Ouch.

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    The Fourth EstateThe Fourth Estate Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    zagdrob wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I don't believe he was eaten alive by 120 dogs. I'd believe a firing squad, I'd believe a hanging, I'd even believe beheading with a guillotine but 120 dogs sounds too much like a tall tale.

    It sounds like a tall tale, and making your enemies out as sadistic and incomprehensibly evil is a tried and true propaganda tactic...but at the same time, this is North Korea.

    If he believes his uncle was involved in the assassination attempt back in March, I could completely see some sort of over-the-top demonstration like this. Six people with twenty dogs each? Making a point to the rest of the senior staff? I'd believe it if there was some kind of verification.

    Also, I wouldn't worry about the executed uncle's wife or how she must be feeling / doing. She's Kim Jong-il's full sister, and her marriage was more likely than not an arranged marriage for political purposes than anything we would recognize as some sort of loving relationship. I wouldn't bet against her selling out her own husband, especially as it sounds like she got a major promotion.

    EDIT - Hell, we've got credible accounts of all kinds of crazy executions. Credible reports of artillery and steamrollers, public executions, etc. 'Treason' by a high ranking official would probably merit something extreme.

    The interesting thing about the story is that it was published in Wen Wei Po, a Beijing controlled newspaper. If it's not a credible tale, that says something about China's view of its neighbour.

    EDIT: Actually, probably fake: washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/03/no-kim-jong-un-probably-didnt-feed-his-uncle-to-120-hungry-dogs/

    The Fourth Estate on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Sixth, as the satirist Karl Sharro put it, "The clue about the story of Kim Jong Un's uncle being fed to 120 hundred dogs being false is who has time to count dogs at a time like that." Okay, so that's not a real reason to disbelieve the story. But it was too funny not to include.

    Yes.

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    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Why would they have to count the dogs, it's their dogs that they have. Not like they are gathering dogs off the street.

    I have no problem believing it. During balkan civil wars, some
    factions carried out executions via lead pipe beatings or forcing prisoners to bite each others genitals off then letting them bleed to death.

    steam_sig.png
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Why would they have to count the dogs, it's their dogs that they have. Not like they are gathering dogs off the street.

    I have no problem believing it. During balkan civil wars, some
    factions carried out executions via lead pipe beatings or forcing prisoners to bite each others genitals off then letting them bleed to death.

    Oh, they do horrific shit to nameless prisoners in North Korea, if the defectors' stories are to be believed. But I can't get over the mental hurdle that an official who was "tried" in a military tribunal and "confessed" to his crimes would be executed by anything less dignified than a firing squad.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Mill wrote: »
    I was about to mention the death by artillery. So could believe the death by starving dogs, maybe not 120, but given North Korea's particularities, I can certainly buy the starving dog part.

    I'm kind of curious of whether China has any safeguards in place or is putting some in place, in the event that the ruler of North Korea finally does something truly insane. If I were them, I'd be trying to either sabotage the artillery or buy off the people manning it. That way, when the shit finally hits the fan, don't have to worry about the current head of NK fucking up the economy.

    China has probably spent just as much time and effort as South Korea in pinpointing and tracking the big rocket batteries and long-range mobile soviet guns, a surprising number of which are pointed towards the Chinese border, just in case

    I had no idea until I researched it just how many missiles south korea had aimed at North Korea's artillery, but it's a pretty crazy number. Keep in mind the vast majority of North Korea's artillery isn't long enough range to hit any strategic targets and is only good for causing general terror and panic

    In many ways it's a micro version of the US and USSR cold war game of "keep track of their nukes"

    override367 on
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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    So...did they fire the victim out of the artillery, ala Simpsons?

    EDIT - China could probably do that and seize a country.

    Cantido on
    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    According to a cursory Google search, the man in question was forced to stand in a spot that a mortar had been zeroed in on.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Like there are 120 dogs in North Korea, they've probably eaten them all.
    Cause of the wide spread famines you racists

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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Like there are 120 dogs in North Korea, they've probably eaten them all.
    Cause of the wide spread famines you racists

    The Kim's probably keep some as pets, who enjoy a better diet than most Koreans.

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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/battlefield-china-banned-illegal-shooter,25542.html
    The Chinese Ministry claims that Battlefield 4 is "an illegal game, with content that endangers national security, and is all about a cultural invasion. Battlefield 4 relevant available downloads, patches, news, and other requirements [shall be] deleted within 24 hours."

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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/battlefield-china-banned-illegal-shooter,25542.html
    The Chinese Ministry claims that Battlefield 4 is "an illegal game, with content that endangers national security, and is all about a cultural invasion. Battlefield 4 relevant available downloads, patches, news, and other requirements [shall be] deleted within 24 hours."

    This is no surprise to anyone including the publisher. Making China the badguy in a game is basically a guaranteed ban for any media.

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    My only question is why are they only catching this now?

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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    My only question is why are they only catching this now?

    Large bureaucracy and probably some well placed bribes for the period it was available. China isn't incredibly efficient.

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    My only question is why are they only catching this now?

    Large bureaucracy and probably some well placed bribes for the period it was available. China isn't incredibly efficient.

    True. Can we expect bribes to get a lift on this ban?

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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    My only question is why are they only catching this now?

    Large bureaucracy and probably some well placed bribes for the period it was available. China isn't incredibly efficient.

    True. Can we expect bribes to get a lift on this ban?

    Not without some redo on the part of the game. And the ban will do little but stop the legitimate sales. The majority will be playing illegal copies anyway. The fact it got through was probably some smart bribery and work anyway.

    But if they publish that it is outlawed the CCP isn't going to really backdown though.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    My only question is why are they only catching this now?

    It kept crashing.

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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    The new DLC was released. 'China Rising' might have set off flags.

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    RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    My only question is why are they only catching this now?

    Large bureaucracy and probably some well placed bribes for the period it was available. China isn't incredibly efficient.

    True. Can we expect bribes to get a lift on this ban?

    Not without some redo on the part of the game. And the ban will do little but stop the legitimate sales. The majority will be playing illegal copies anyway. The fact it got through was probably some smart bribery and work anyway.

    But if they publish that it is outlawed the CCP isn't going to really backdown though.

    I wonder how many more will download it just to see what the fuss is about?

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    KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I don't believe he was eaten alive by 120 dogs. I'd believe a firing squad, I'd believe a hanging, I'd even believe beheading with a guillotine but 120 dogs sounds too much like a tall tale.

    This is North Korea. James Bond super-villainy isn't completely off the table.

    When someone takes the book "1984" and models a system of government on it, anything is possible.

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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    emnmnme wrote: »
    The new DLC was released. 'China Rising' might have set off flags.

    I've seen articles quoting Chinese news agencies that this is the reason. I don't believe it since

    1) Most of the vanilla maps take place in China.

    2) BF4 spoilers
    The campaign centers around the fallout after a hardline admiral assassinates a moderate Chinese politician, who was set to become premier and would grant free elections.

    Riots follow, Chinese soldiers kill a lot of civilians, and civil war almost breaks out.

    That, imo, is why the game got banned. That the multiplayer maps take place in China is a nice cover. The CCP is probably worried about the messages the sp sends.

    Edit, if it took them till that map pack came out to realize that the game took place in China, then they really need to step up their game.

    JusticeforPluto on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    The new DLC was released. 'China Rising' might have set off flags.

    I've seen articles quoting Chinese news agencies that this is the reason. I don't believe it since

    1) Most of the vanilla maps take place in China.

    2) BF4 spoilers
    The campaign centers around the fallout after a hardline admiral assassinates a moderate Chinese politician, who was set to become premier and would grant free elections.

    Riots follow, Chinese soldiers kill a lot of civilians, and civil war almost breaks out.

    That, imo, is why the game got banned. That the multiplayer maps take place in China is a nice cover. The CCP is probably worried about the messages the sp sends.

    Edit, if it took them till that map pack came out to realize that the game took place in China, then they really need to step up their game.

    I made this joke already, but I don't care.

    It took them this long to run the game without crashing.

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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    So Dennis Rodman got very, very angry when Chris Cuomo of CNN asked him about Kenneth Bae this morning, ranting semicoherently about "what Kenneth Bae did" without ever actually saying what he's supposed to have done.

    This is officially Not Funny Anymore. Rodman may actually be siding with North Korea now over the US.

    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    I am somewhat baffled that it is legal, if difficult, to travel to North Korea but not Cuba.

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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    I am somewhat baffled that it is legal, if difficult, to travel to North Korea but not Cuba.

    There is not a large number of North Koreans expatriates living in a swing state with a grudge against the current regime of their home country.

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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Gosling wrote: »
    So Dennis Rodman got very, very angry when Chris Cuomo of CNN asked him about Kenneth Bae this morning, ranting semicoherently about "what Kenneth Bae did" without ever actually saying what he's supposed to have done.

    This is officially Not Funny Anymore. Rodman may actually be siding with North Korea now over the US.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25648091

    Hmmm. I would not sing happy birthday to Kim Jong Un.

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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    Cantido on
    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    That shit ain't reasonable. If they were worried about foreign ideas invading their little workers' paradise over there, they would have burned Bae's Bible and had him deported the next day. Bae didn't expect to be sentenced to a life of hard labor for contraband.

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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    That shit ain't reasonable. If they were worried about foreign ideas invading their little workers' paradise over there, they would have burned Bae's Bible and had him deported the next day. Bae didn't expect to be sentenced to a life of hard labor for contraband.

    Then Bae is a idiot. This is a country where entire families including the small children are sent to labor camps, where they are worked/starved to death.

    Do you think anyone is going to bring a bible into NK after the Bae example(probably yes cause some people are fucking idiots), but it will deter some.

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    Harbringer197Harbringer197 Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    That shit ain't reasonable. If they were worried about foreign ideas invading their little workers' paradise over there, they would have burned Bae's Bible and had him deported the next day. Bae didn't expect to be sentenced to a life of hard labor for contraband.

    its all just political bullshit I'm sure the Korean government doesn't give two shits. if it wasn't the bible they would've made some other excuse. I don't really like the idea of my own government just deciding to not try to help me just because i went somewhere and followed my faith.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    That shit ain't reasonable. If they were worried about foreign ideas invading their little workers' paradise over there, they would have burned Bae's Bible and had him deported the next day. Bae didn't expect to be sentenced to a life of hard labor for contraband.

    its all just political bullshit I'm sure the Korean government doesn't give two shits. if it wasn't the bible they would've made some other excuse. I don't really like the idea of my own government just deciding to not try to help me just because i went somewhere and followed my faith.

    I respect your belief in your faith but this is North Korea. They don't tolerate stuff like that and when they find foreigners who do that they won't show restraint. That's why going to NK is suicide.

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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    That shit ain't reasonable. If they were worried about foreign ideas invading their little workers' paradise over there, they would have burned Bae's Bible and had him deported the next day. Bae didn't expect to be sentenced to a life of hard labor for contraband.

    its all just political bullshit I'm sure the Korean government doesn't give two shits. if it wasn't the bible they would've made some other excuse. I don't really like the idea of my own government just deciding to not try to help me just because i went somewhere and followed my faith.

    Entering NK is as a US citizen should be basically like going into a prison,where you have to sign the 'If I am held hostage the government will not negotiate for my release' waiver.

    I don't like the idea of some idiot causing my government to expend resources to save them from a foreign state because they were too self-righteous to follow the rules of the country they were entering. They can't stop you from going, but if they tell you not to 100 fucking times, expecting help when you are arrested for the exact shit they warn you about, and are sentenced to the exact penalties they caution you with, is pretty rich.


    The Department of State recommends against all travel by U.S. citizens to North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or DPRK). This replaces the Travel Warning for North Korea of October 1, to update information on the risk of arbitrary arrest and detention of U.S. citizens in North Korea.

    Travel by U.S. citizens to North Korea is not routine, and U.S. citizens crossing into North Korea, even accidentally, have been subject to arbitrary arrest and long-term detention. Since January 2009, four U.S. citizens have been arrested for entering North Korea illegally, and two U.S. citizens who entered on valid DPRK visas were arrested inside North Korea on other charges. The Department of State has also received reports of DPRK authorities arbitrarily detaining U.S. citizens and not allowing them to depart the country.

    The Government of North Korea has not only imposed heavy fines on, but has also detained, arrested, and imprisoned persons who violated DPRK laws, such as entering the country illegally or attempting to contact private DPRK citizens without government authorization. Travelers to North Korea must enter the DPRK with a valid passport and valid DPRK visa. Foreign visitors to North Korea may be arrested, detained, or expelled for activities that would not be considered criminal outside North Korea, including involvement in unsanctioned religious and/or political activities (whether those activities took place inside or outside North Korea), unauthorized travel, or unauthorized interaction with the local population.

    North Korean security personnel may regard as espionage unauthorized or unescorted travel inside North Korea and unauthorized attempts to speak directly to North Korean citizens. North Korean authorities may fine or arrest travelers for exchanging currency with an unauthorized vendor, for taking unauthorized photographs, or for shopping at stores not designated for foreigners. It is a criminal act in North Korea to show disrespect to the country's former leaders, Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung, or to the current leader, Kim Jong Un.

    If DPRK authorities permit you to keep your cell phone upon entry into the country, please keep in mind that you have no right to privacy in North Korea and should assume your communications are monitored. It is a criminal act to bring printed or electronic media criticizing the DPRK government into the country. If you bring electronic media, including USB drives, CD-ROMs, DVDs, or laptops, into the country, you must assume that North Korean authorities will review the information on those devices. Please be sure that the information contained on those devices does not violate the laws or regulations of the DPRK, as penalties for knowingly or unknowingly violating North Korea's laws are much harsher than U.S. penalties for similar offenses. Sentences for crimes can include years of detention in hard labor camps or death.
    the referenced Oct 1 warning http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_5907.html had the same sentences, as did the march one that one referenced.

    tinwhiskers on
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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Anyone who so much as heard or read a single utterance of Bae's Bible is either dead or reeducated.

    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    Anyone who so much as heard or read a single utterance of Bae's Bible is either dead or reeducated.

    Did he really have a Bible on him? Un's ex-girlfriend was executed for starring in pornography and we all know darn well that was a trumped up charge for the newspapers.

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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Time for an update on China. Or some stuff from today. Move away from crazy best Korea.

    Guardian News Site Blocked

    China has been cracking down on foreign journalist hard for about a year now. Part of Biden's last trip was to talk about this including their refusal to allow journalist to renew or get their visas at all. Blocking of sites like NYT and Reuters though Reuters is back and NYT was for showing corruption in the party. That hasn't changed though. Just another in a line of China doing what it can to control the media consumption of the mainland populace.

    Alibaba Bans Bit Coins

    China's central bank banned bitcoins early this year. Alibaba is basically e-bay on crack and this is another blow to bitcoin in China. I am fine with that. Mostly though this is government interference as Alibaba is going to its IPO soon. Just more of an interesting story than anything important. China has been one of the first governments to really go after bitcoin though. And it has been aggressive.

    More Yasukuni blow back

    Not a fan of the language in the article but I think the picture is telling and tied to the CCP's use of nationalist and xenophobic education to help maintain control. Yasukuni is still political kabuki down to the fact the class A war criminals are in the shrine.(Secret ceremony in 1978 and is why the Emperor won't visit) Also giggling at the last bit as the Japanese and Chinese envoy's in Britain make dorks out of themselves.

    Really I think this blow back is being pushed up in China to cover their rather poor GDP growth for the last year which was less than required for the population to have proper wealth gains. But also the fact the Japanese are dumb enough to let the Chinese use this by going to Yasukuni says a lot. I still think there could be a de-enshrinement of the class criminals making it less of a problem by a long shot.

    And last plug for a friends article on China. He is studying and getting his PhD there. He is Tsinghua which is one of the top schools in the country so you get a lot of princelings and such in there. Their view on on Diplomacy is both unsurprising, scary and depressing figure folks can give it a read.

    http://korbelreport.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/on-studying-america-from-a-chinese-perspective/

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    RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Rodman is endangering his life and doing a really dumb thing going over there, so I'm inclined to agree. Kenneth Bae, and any dumbshit who goes over there with a Bible is throwing their life away and should have to waive all their rights before setting foot there. I wouldn't want responsibility for him either.

    Unless Rodman has a death wish, hell yes he has to take North Korea's side. Its either that or outright say, "I'm not bringing it up because I want to live."

    That shit ain't reasonable. If they were worried about foreign ideas invading their little workers' paradise over there, they would have burned Bae's Bible and had him deported the next day. Bae didn't expect to be sentenced to a life of hard labor for contraband.

    its all just political bullshit I'm sure the Korean government doesn't give two shits. if it wasn't the bible they would've made some other excuse. I don't really like the idea of my own government just deciding to not try to help me just because i went somewhere and followed my faith.

    Actually the government shouldn't help you out in that case. The Good Lord gave you faith and a brain. He expects you to use both.

    There is a difference between faith and hubris. If you walk into a lions den, be prepared to be martyred. And at least have the good grace to act like Saint Lawrence when you are dying.

    Edit; I think I once heard it put "The Good Lord gave you free will. That includes the Freedom to take the consequences of your own choices."

    Rchanen on
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