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When did the serious threads become stupid? -- Ramius Moderated Version

Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
RAMIUS EDITED VERSION:
I have lurked here for a number of years, and have started posting somewhat recently. It has always seemed in the past that any topics in the serious forums (G&T, D&D) that I frequented were taken seriously (meaning: on topic). The off-topic, more chat type posts, were punished. It seems so less like that now.

I can show specific examples if needed, but it seems so rampant that I don't think it is really necessary. Reading through serious threads has become stupid at times




ORIGINAL VERSION:
I have lurked here for a number of years, and have started posting somewhat recently. It has always seemed in the past that any topics in the serious forums (G&T, D&D) that I frequented were taken seriously (meaning: on topic). The off-topic, more chat type (SE++) posts, were punished. It seems so less like that now.

I can show specific examples if needed, but it seems so rampant that I don't think it is really necessary. Please, don't get me wrong, I like SE++ as well, but I think every post has its place. Reading through serious threads has become stupid at times.

Omnicron9999 on
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    Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=18228

    Here is a good example, first reply.

    I never object to an awesome internet joke, or meme, but really? Half the threads on SE are more productive.

    Omnicron9999 on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=18228

    Here is a good example, first reply.

    I never object to an awesome internet joke, or meme, but really? Half the threads on SE are more productive.

    I see about every other post in that thread being relevant and on-topic

    Every other one is a joke post.

    Are you suggesting that the moderators should be busting all of those?

    Pony on
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    Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Pony wrote: »
    So, what exactly are you suggesting we do to solve this perceived problem?

    I'm only suggesting we try to keep the on topic boards...ON TOPIC.

    Stupid posts, e.g. cocks dicks lol...

    Shouldn't be tolerated in the at least somewhat serious topics.

    Omnicron9999 on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Are you honestly suggesting that people aren't being serious enough about the internet?

    Pony on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    You should probably provide more than just that one example.

    I mean, really, if it's rampant, you should be able to come up with 10 blatant examples pretty easily.

    Thanatos on
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    Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=18228

    Here is a good example, first reply.

    I never object to an awesome internet joke, or meme, but really? Half the threads on SE are more productive.

    What the fuck? One joke, followed by what seem to be several posts addressing the topic at length? Are you the Fun Police or something?

    Whoa, whoa, I'm not trying to kill the party here...

    Like I said, jokes are fine.

    If everyone really wants, I will bring a bunch of examples of threads being nonsense. I am only saying that it seems everything is going way more casual. I used to LOVE reading D&D threads, they are interesting, informative, and really entertaining. Now it seems that they are just jokes, and non serious posts. As its description states, it is supposed to be more structured than SE. I can hardly tell the difference sometimes.

    Omnicron9999 on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Yeah, seriously.

    I'd be okay with you using a spoiler tag and providing like, 100 links.

    Because it'd have to be at least 100 links before I considered it a severe problem.

    Pony on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Also, I've never observed D&D to be a "more structured place than SE++". It's just different, in its own way.

    Pony on
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    Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    OK, I didn't realize that this whole issue whould be so one sided.


    Basically, I figured there would be more of a concensus on this. I like hanging out here, and I really don't want to make waves. Seriously, I only wanted to voice some concern.

    to Pony: The very point I am making is that D&D isn't more structured, the definition says it should be, however.


    If everyone else disagrees, I can deal.

    Omnicron9999 on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    D&D is pretty damn structured, actually. What it isn't is serious, because we come here to relax. And you'll forgive me if I don't take the complaints of someone who doesn't actually contribute to the forum seriously. We're not here to perform for you.

    The Cat on
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    RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited April 2007
    Constructive discussion on the current state of thread moderation is a welcome topic here in Tube's Circus.

    Please feel free to comment on THIS VERSION of the original post:
    I have lurked here for a number of years, and have started posting somewhat recently. It has always seemed in the past that any topics in the serious forums (G&T, D&D) that I frequented were taken seriously (meaning: on topic). The off-topic, more chat type posts, were punished. It seems so less like that now.

    I can show specific examples if needed, but it seems so rampant that I don't think it is really necessary. Reading through serious threads has become stupid at times.


    I will not entertain any interforum rivalry, jingoism, comparisons to SE++, or trolling. Posting such is a waste of your time because your post will either be edited or outright deleted.

    Ramius on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited April 2007
    Pony wrote: »
    Also, I've never observed D&D to be a "more structured place than SE++". It's just different, in its own way.

    How is it not more structured?

    OK, I didn't realize that this whole issue whould be so one sided.


    Basically, I figured there would be more of a concensus on this. I like hanging out here, and I really don't want to make waves. Seriously, I only wanted to voice some concern.

    You don't need to give up just because you didn't find consensus. Provide us some examples so we could see the problem you're seeing.

    Elki on
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    MulysaSemproniusMulysaSempronius but also susie nyRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Generally, a "regular" or a mod will be given a lot more leeway to mess around in a thread, because it is perceived that they will not drag it into the mud like a less experienced "non-regular." Perhaps they are getting more and more leeway, perhaps it is just your imagination. I have seen some "only regulars can have a real opinion on this", though.

    MulysaSempronius on
    If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I don't think it's that the regs get more leeway, I think that perception comes from the fact that it's (at least in part) the regs that define the "forum culture" that we have here.

    I've definitely seen the modhammer come down pretty hard on regs, perhaps even moreso than newbies, the idea being that the mods can be pretty certain that the regs should know better. Recently in D&D, there have been some new forumites who strained the patience of the mods to quite a degree, in a fashion that, had they been regs, would have earned a ban pretty damn quickly.

    Regarding the difference between SE and, for example, D&D, I think the primary difference is that in SE the topic of conversation is able to change with the flow of conversation. In D&D, once the topic starts to drift (I use the yardstick that if you have a two or three level deep quote tree unrelated to the topic at hand, it's starting to drift) either one of the mods or the forumers participating will generally make an effort to move it back on topic.

    In my opinion, the point is that one or two offtopic posts, a couple of jokes, or even a running joke that pops up within the conversation (which happens a fair bit if people keep bringing up inapplicable or flawed arguments) does not make the topic "chatty."

    Specifically relating to the example provided, I think the topic doesn't have a very serious tone because the question the OP asked is difficult to take seriously.

    japan on
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    RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited April 2007
    Something which occurred to me, Omnicron, is that your sense of things might be tainted if you have spent most of your time lurking or posting in H/A. On the spectrum of expectations for on-topicness, the way we run things in H/A is actually an outlier, and well beyond our expectations in any of the other forums.

    Ramius on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Ramius wrote: »
    Something which occurred to me, Omnicron, is that your sense of things might be tainted if you have spent most of your time lurking or posting in H/A. On the spectrum of expectations for on-topicness, the way we run things in H/A is actually an outlier, and well beyond our expectations in any of the other forums.

    Good call. I can see how that would skew one's expectations. One does not fuck around in H/A, which I for one appreciate. But that is a completely separate beast from the other forums.

    AbsoluteZero on
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    Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Ramius wrote: »
    Something which occurred to me, Omnicron, is that your sense of things might be tainted if you have spent most of your time lurking or posting in H/A. On the spectrum of expectations for on-topicness, the way we run things in H/A is actually an outlier, and well beyond our expectations in any of the other forums.

    You could be absolutely right, anything remotely off-topic is pretty serious there. I honestly thought there would be more people feeling the same way. I was obviously pretty wrong, which is why I am totally dropping it. I appreciate the people who did take this seriously however.

    The very fact that a new heavily moderated thread had to be made because the last one became such a disaster lends a bit of credit to my argument however :P

    Omnicron9999 on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Ramius wrote: »
    Something which occurred to me, Omnicron, is that your sense of things might be tainted if you have spent most of your time lurking or posting in H/A. On the spectrum of expectations for on-topicness, the way we run things in H/A is actually an outlier, and well beyond our expectations in any of the other forums.
    You could be absolutely right, anything remotely off-topic is pretty serious there. I honestly thought there would be more people feeling the same way. I was obviously pretty wrong, which is why I am totally dropping it. I appreciate the people who did take this seriously however.

    The very fact that a new heavily moderated thread had to be made because the last one became such a disaster lends a bit of credit to my argument however :P
    Anything discussing the difference between the subforums inevitably degenerates into "subforum X sucks."

    Thanatos on
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    Omnicron9999Omnicron9999 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Ramius wrote: »
    Something which occurred to me, Omnicron, is that your sense of things might be tainted if you have spent most of your time lurking or posting in H/A. On the spectrum of expectations for on-topicness, the way we run things in H/A is actually an outlier, and well beyond our expectations in any of the other forums.
    You could be absolutely right, anything remotely off-topic is pretty serious there. I honestly thought there would be more people feeling the same way. I was obviously pretty wrong, which is why I am totally dropping it. I appreciate the people who did take this seriously however.

    The very fact that a new heavily moderated thread had to be made because the last one became such a disaster lends a bit of credit to my argument however :P
    Anything discussing the difference between the subforums inevitably degenerates into "subforum X sucks."

    Than, completely true. That was totally not what I meant to do. I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with SE++. simply that every post has its place. I enjoy SE, my point was simply that other board's threads seem to deviate and sway in the same manner as SE. The very reason SE exists is that the other boards aren't meant to be the same.

    As Ramius pointed out when he made the new thread, simply the mention of one board invokes some form of rivalry. I didn't anticipate this at all, which of course, was a mistake.

    Can't we all just get along?

    Omnicron9999 on
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    MeizMeiz Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=18228

    Here is a good example, first reply.

    I never object to an awesome internet joke, or meme, but really? Half the threads on SE are more productive.

    In my honest opinion that thread should have fucking died right then and there. To be honest I posted one of those quick little replies but deleted it once I figured people wanted to talk about this shit. What I should have said was "perhaps why does bandwidth cost so much money would be a better question" but, I'm wasn't that clever at the time. Because that might have actually brought something to the discussion.

    The problem with having the same synergy in every sub forum is that you end up realizing that a lot of these Internet jokes, memes and what not aren't really clever at all. To start with, sure, tee-hee. But people tend to drill you with this shit until it end up not being funny at all. It's probably even more apparent if you're volunteering to moderate the place.

    Luckily, the forum comes in assorted flavors so I tend to bounce around enough to see something I want to take part in and do so.

    My only gripe is that G&T's become rather stale and gamefaq-ish as of late but then again so is the gaming industry and tech market.

    Meiz on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I think one thing to remember is that in on-topic subforums like D&D and G&T not everything is meant to be "serious business." Things are supposed to stay more or less on-topic, but things can drift and jokes can be made.

    Yes, in situations like the one linked thread sometimes the signal:noise ratio can get a little low...but even in threads like the eventually the one-liners will dry up and actual on-topic conversation (assuming there's much to be had) will ensue.

    And while I haven't frequented G&T much lately, I can say that in D&D at least threads getting derailed for joking and chatting is hardly "rampant." Hell, I'd say it's uncommon. Though that could have a little to do with that subforum having a [chat] thread to relieve some of that pressure.

    mcdermott on
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    EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I think one thing to remember is that in on-topic subforums like D&D and G&T not everything is meant to be "serious business." Things are supposed to stay more or less on-topic, but things can drift and jokes can be made.

    Yes, in situations like the one linked thread sometimes the signal:noise ratio can get a little low...but even in threads like the eventually the one-liners will dry up and actual on-topic conversation (assuming there's much to be had) will ensue.

    And while I haven't frequented G&T much lately, I can say that in D&D at least threads getting derailed for joking and chatting is hardly "rampant." Hell, I'd say it's uncommon. Though that could have a little to do with that subforum having a [chat] thread to relieve some of that pressure.

    That's something that's confused me, why does D&D and Artist's Corner have a chat thread, when there's a chat forum. Or, alternatively, why doesn't G&T have a chat thread anymore? The whole thing seems fairly random.

    EvilBadman on
    FyreWulff wrote: »
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Well, that was fun while it lasted.

    Thanatos on
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    RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited April 2007
    hey, now.

    this is my moderated thread.

    *UNLOCKED*

    Ramius on
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    DaySleeperDaySleeper regular
    edited April 2007
    EvilBadman wrote: »
    That's something that's confused me, why does D&D and Artist's Corner have a chat thread, when there's a chat forum. Or, alternatively, why doesn't G&T have a chat thread anymore? The whole thing seems fairly random.

    Over the lifetime of the forums, man of the subforums have developed fairly close-knit groups of posters who all like to hang out together and chat. Having the chat threads gives this someplace to happen within the particular group that would keep other threads from getting too terribly derailed.

    SE++ can be difficult to post in if it is not your particular brand of madness (it's mine, I joined in the H&R days), so it's nice that the other social groups in the forum can have their places to hang out.

    DaySleeper on
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    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    EvilBadman wrote: »

    That's something that's confused me, why does D&D and Artist's Corner have a chat thread, when there's a chat forum. Or, alternatively, why doesn't G&T have a chat thread anymore? The whole thing seems fairly random.

    two things

    1. You really, really, don't want to go there. It will still set off a nerve in many people.

    2. Because of reseaon one, the mod do not like us talking about it. at all.

    ronzo on
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    EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Avris wrote: »
    EvilBadman wrote: »

    That's something that's confused me, why does D&D and Artist's Corner have a chat thread, when there's a chat forum. Or, alternatively, why doesn't G&T have a chat thread anymore? The whole thing seems fairly random.

    two things

    1. You really, really, don't want to go there. It will still set off a nerve in many people.

    2. Because of reseaon one, the mod do not like us talking about it. at all.

    1. I calls them likes I sees them. Excuse my curiosity, but I'm just wondering why have some subforums have chat threads, and others don't. Like I previously stated, it seems fairly random that X and Y get chat threads, but if you want to chat in Z, too bad, go to SE++.

    2. I noticed. Thanks Ramius, for unlocking.

    EvilBadman on
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I should note that Badman is fucking awesome
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    RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited April 2007
    Every forum is different and to frame your question in terms of "why is forum X like this and forum Y is not?" is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    But I'll answer about the G&T chat thread, none-the-less.

    One very good reason for G&T to not have a chat thread is simply "traffic". G&T is the most highly traffic'd forum we have, and to try and then funnel all of that traffic into a single thread for purposes of off-topic banter is ludicrous on the face of it. When G&T started with a chat thread, they were actually slightly LESS traffic'd than SE++, but G&T has grown the fastest.

    Another good reason has to do with the type of posts and/or posters who did manage to thrive in the ultra-high-speed chat environment that the G&T chat thread became. A "significant" proportion were not the types of posts and posters that we'd like to encourage in our headline forum.

    Ramius on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    From what I've noticed, G&T seems to be the only subforum that isn't allowed a [chat] thread (though I believe one or two others don't have them). I missed the drama that led up to and followed the banishing of said [chat] thread, so I can't speak intelligently as to why it's gone, but I imagine that's something that one might bring up with the G&T mods, rather than turn into some cross-subforum debate.

    EDIT: Never mind...looks like Ramius fielded that one.

    mcdermott on
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    EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Ramius wrote: »
    Every forum is different and to frame your question in terms of "why is forum X like this and forum Y is not?" is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    But I'll answer about the G&T chat thread, none-the-less.

    One very good reason for G&T to not have a chat thread is simply "traffic". G&T is the most highly traffic'd forum we have, and to try and then funnel all of that traffic into a single thread for purposes of off-topic banter is ludicrous on the face of it. When G&T started with a chat thread, they were actually slightly LESS traffic'd than SE++, but G&T has grown the fastest.

    Another good reason has to do with the type of posts and/or posters who did manage to thrive in the ultra-high-speed chat environment that the G&T chat thread became. A "significant" proportion were not the types of posts and posters that we'd like to encourage in our headline forum.

    That works. Thanks.

    Also, MC, I felt it easier to pick the brain of an admin rather than wait a week for the Mods to council, or you know, lock and delete my post.

    EvilBadman on
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I should note that Badman is fucking awesome
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    EvilBadman wrote: »
    That works. Thanks.

    Also, MC, I felt it easier to pick the brain of an admin rather than wait a week for the Mods to council, or you know, lock and delete my post.

    Fair enough.

    Also, if you're looking for something a little less wild (or marginally slower paced) than SE++ for chatting there's no cover charge for the D&D [chat] thread. No dress code, either. ;-)

    mcdermott on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    EvilBadman wrote: »
    That works. Thanks.

    Also, MC, I felt it easier to pick the brain of an admin rather than wait a week for the Mods to council, or you know, lock and delete my post.
    Fair enough.

    Also, if you're looking for something a little less wild (or marginally slower paced) than SE++ for chatting there's no cover charge for the D&D [chat] thread. No dress code, either. ;-)
    Pants are looked down upon.

    Thanatos on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Thanatos wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    EvilBadman wrote: »
    That works. Thanks.

    Also, MC, I felt it easier to pick the brain of an admin rather than wait a week for the Mods to council, or you know, lock and delete my post.
    Fair enough.

    Also, if you're looking for something a little less wild (or marginally slower paced) than SE++ for chatting there's no cover charge for the D&D [chat] thread. No dress code, either. ;-)
    Pants are looked down upon.

    Is that why nobody there likes me?

    .......

    Fixed.

    So, did we ever figure out what was going on with this rash of off-topic joke posts? Is it just a G&T thing or something, and is that why I've not noticed it? I found I don't spend much time in there nowadays, as I'm broke and thus unable to partake much in either games or technology.

    mcdermott on
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    Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    EvilBadman wrote: »
    That works. Thanks.

    Also, MC, I felt it easier to pick the brain of an admin rather than wait a week for the Mods to council, or you know, lock and delete my post.
    Fair enough.

    Also, if you're looking for something a little less wild (or marginally slower paced) than SE++ for chatting there's no cover charge for the D&D [chat] thread. No dress code, either. ;-)
    Pants are looked down upon.

    Is that why nobody there likes me?

    .......

    Fixed.

    So, did we ever figure out what was going on with this rash of off-topic joke posts? Is it just a G&T thing or something, and is that why I've not noticed it? I found I don't spend much time in there nowadays, as I'm broke and thus unable to partake much in either games or technology.

    It seems that prior to previous evidence, the internet is in fact, not serious business, and people come here for fun. I'm shocked too.

    Bionic Monkey on
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    MeizMeiz Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Chat thread's gone, someone made judgment call. I can deal with that.

    What I'm having issues with is the lack luster quality of the G&T forum as of late.

    That's just my personal opinion though.

    Meiz on
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    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Meiz wrote: »
    Chat thread's gone, someone made judgment call. I can deal with that.

    What I'm having issues with is the lack luster quality of the G&T forum as of late.

    That's just my personal opinion though.

    I agree. I also thought it was funny when the PS3 Impressions thread turned into a PS3 megathread, managed to go like that for awhile, then got locked we a mod looked at it funny.

    Kinda says something.

    ronzo on
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    colawarscolawars Pittsburgh, PARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I'm not a frequent poster, but I used to love lurking in G&T. I finally started to participate in the DS online threads and would chime in on other games when I wanted to. It was a good time about a year ago. In the last 6 months or so, something happened. Maybe it was the loss of a much-liked moderator; it just isn't the same as it was. I wandered into SE++ a few times and was turned off. It was so foreign to me. Since the "take the chat to SE++ you gangly G&T'ers" shitstorm, SE++ has really grown on me. Enough to make it my first stop when I visit the forums. Has the migration and transition gone smoothly? Perhaps. G&T just seems a lot more shallower now, it doesn't have the heart it used to.

    colawars on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    There's always the option of doing something in G&T involving the community. Photoshop contests again maybe?

    Edit - Zuh? Ramius is back? :o

    Henroid on
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    RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited April 2007
    yes, Ramius is back.

    Also, ct is your #1 admin for most of these matters, but he has been out all week, I think due to his internet service being down. So I'm mostly just covering for him. I really shouldn't try and get into discussing "the current state of G&T", because frankly I haven't read a single thread in there all month.

    If you guys are making a plea for me to focus on it a bit and come back with my impressions, I can try.

    Ramius on
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    denihilistdenihilist Ancient and Mighty Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited April 2007
    I've never understood the 'quality' complaint. It always seems that the people complaining the loudest are the ones with nothing to add. If you're bored with something, move on. Come back to it when it feels fresh again.

    That's what I do anyway and it seems to work pretty well.

    denihilist on
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