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The New (and On Notice) Obama Thread

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Posts

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.
    And I will argue that there are circumstances where - regardless of a governor's wishes - the President should order in troops. The Civil War was one case, as were Ike sending troops to Little Rock / LBJ sending troops to Montgomery.

    Things in Ferguson could potentially reach that point shortly where Obama would be in the right to order in troops. We aren't at that point yet and that should be a last resort - Nixon (Missouri Nixon) deserves an opportunity to evaluate and respond to the situation. I don't think he has moved fast enough, but a case can be made that the situation hasn't / hadn't escalated to the point where calling in National Guard is a necessity until recently.

    Agreed.

    Dac
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.

    I agree, but the proper response would have been Congress impeaching Ford.

    That's not something anyone wanted.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.

    I agree, but the proper response would have been Congress impeaching Ford.

    That's not something anyone wanted.

    Why not? He let Nixon get away with no consequences.

  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.

    I agree, but the proper response would have been Congress impeaching Ford.

    That's not something anyone wanted.

    Why not? He let Nixon get away with no consequences.

    There were consequences; Nixon lost the presidency. He was saved the embarrassment of having it taken away from him sure, but his legacy will always be tainted.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.

    I agree, but the proper response would have been Congress impeaching Ford.

    That's not something anyone wanted.

    Why not? He let Nixon get away with no consequences.

    There were consequences; Nixon lost the presidency. He was saved the embarrassment of having it taken away from him sure, but his legacy will always be tainted.

    His legacy being tainted means shit, we'd never any other criminals get away with that as a "sentence" for their crimes. The justice system is meant for to punish everyone, no exceptions.

    Keeping this on topic I'm proud of Obama about what he's doing about Ferguson.

    Harry Dresden on
    chrishallett83shrykeTL DRMagic PinkSynthesis
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    I like his comments on Ferguson as well. Compassionate without being dramatic, sober without seeming callous or indifferent, and with a very clear undertone of, "hey, I got my eye on you" to both the police and the violent elements.

    Harry DresdenEvigilant
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    I'm not entirely sure now is the time for healing, as he says.

    I kind of feel like now is the time for justice, and then after will be time for healing.

    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
    TL DR
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Justice by its nature works slow, healing in theory would help unite the people to make justice easier.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    Sounds like hippie talk.

    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
    TL DR
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Preacher wrote: »
    Justice by its nature works slow, healing in theory would help unite the people to make justice easier.

    For justice to be slow it needs to be in action to go after the criminals, we never got past the "healing" stage for Nixon. He spent the rest of his life living in luxury and died. Justice never got "easier" in punishing him. Unfortunately Obama's continued the practice with Bush and his wacky pals. He didn't pardon them but he doesn't need to - he isn't intent on prosecuting them. They'll die of old age with full lives and the nation will wonder why they're electing the next criminal assholes into office.

    Harry Dresden on
    TL DR
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    Preacher wrote: »
    Justice by its nature works slow, healing in theory would help unite the people to make justice easier.

    justice delayed is justice denied

    swifter is better in this case, before the movement can actually lose its momentum

    not to say that healing that needs to be done can't happen at the same time

    ChanusiTunesIsEvilchrishallett83shrykeTL DRCorehealer
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    I guess, more to my point, is when Obama talks about now being the time to heal, I hear that now is the time to move past this.

    And it's still entirely unresolved.

    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
    psyck0TL DROneAngryPossumEdith Upwards
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    FYI gov Nixon did react they put the highway patrol aka the state police on charge of the situation on the ground in Missouri

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I don't think he's saying that we have to move beyond it, he's just trying to calm heads in a situation that already has a lot of upset people. For good reason mind you, but rioting and looting is not anyone any favors.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    Well, I do agree that rioting and looting don't help.

    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

    Blueberrywerewlf on the Sony Anime Games Box | BluberryWerewlf on the BroBone
    Harry Dresdenemnmnme
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    FYI gov Nixon did react they put the highway patrol aka the state police on charge of the situation on the ground in Missouri

    Lets hope they are better about it, but from my friend who actually lived in Ferguson and in MO in general, he said most of the cops down there are just aholes.

    Anyway we have a thread for this so Obama, I hear we aren't putting military boots on the ground to defend people from ISIS, but Maliki is stepping down so hopefully a real government can actually get their own fucking military to do something.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.

    I agree, but the proper response would have been Congress impeaching Ford.

    That's not something anyone wanted.

    Why not? He let Nixon get away with no consequences.

    The nation was a bit torn up at the time. Ford's decision was understandable.

    Naturally we might feel differently four decades on, but that's partly because we've lost the background situation, and everything is simplified to "dude did bad stuff, got off without punishment."

    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
    zagdrobHeartlashSageinaRage
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Bush stopped drinking decades ago, IIRC.

    Although I'm pretty sure I remember seeing pictures of him at a baseball game late in his presidency drinking some mysterious beverage that sure seemed to be a beer.

    A high profile reformed alcoholic is not going to relapse in public with an obvious beer. That's not how alcoholism works. If he relapsed, it would be a liiiiitle more subtle than that (eg a hidden vodka bottle).

    If you want to make "insinuations" about Bush relapsing, the standard conspiracy theory is that the pretzel incident was a cover up for a drunken relapse... But I think that is bollocks, too.

  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Bush stopped drinking decades ago, IIRC.

    Although I'm pretty sure I remember seeing pictures of him at a baseball game late in his presidency drinking some mysterious beverage that sure seemed to be a beer.

    A high profile reformed alcoholic is not going to relapse in public with an obvious beer. That's not how alcoholism works. If he relapsed, it would be a liiiiitle more subtle than that (eg a hidden vodka bottle).

    If you want to make "insinuations" about Bush relapsing, the standard conspiracy theory is that the pretzel incident was a cover up for a drunken relapse... But I think that is bollocks, too.

    That's what the pretzel wants you to think. But you are ignoring the second snack behind the grassy knoll.

    shryke wrote: »
    The Democrats aren't crazy but they are still, you know, running the US and it's foreign policy. Which is in the "you don't have a global hegemony without bombing a few eggs" wheelhouse.
    CelestialBadgerSpoitMoridin889Mild Confusion
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Nixon was held accountable, at least as far as being removed from office. Jersey has had a bunch of politicians do perp walks, hopefully adding another real soon.

    Resigning isn't being held accountable. He was given a get out of jail free card by Ford and allowed to live how he liked after stepping down, at best it's a slap on the wrist. He wasn't even put on trial for his crimes.

    Well...he was issued a pardon. I mean, I understand the issues and think Ford made a huge mistake in doing so, but I'm not going to undermine the foundation of the Presidential Pardon system over Nixon.

    The pardoning system isn't wrong, it was how it was used with Nixon - which got shielded a criminal president from prosecution. Pardoning shouldn't be used to protect criminals from justice.

    I agree, but the proper response would have been Congress impeaching Ford.

    That's not something anyone wanted.

    Why not? He let Nixon get away with no consequences.

    The nation was a bit torn up at the time. Ford's decision was understandable.

    Naturally we might feel differently four decades on, but that's partly because we've lost the background situation, and everything is simplified to "dude did bad stuff, got off without punishment."

    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon. Ultimately, it would have been much healthier for the US to have gone through the pain of a Nixon trial.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    Harry DresdenshrykeSynthesis
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Apparently in response to Isreal being a bag of dicks we have stopped a shipment of hellfire missiles their direction. Lets hope more of this happens.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    Harry DresdenEdith UpwardsGnome-InterruptusMild ConfusionLovelyCorehealer
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Apparently in response to Isreal being a bag of dicks we have stopped a shipment of hellfire missiles their direction. Lets hope more of this happens.

    I'm more inclined to believe the president will be impeached because of that shipment stopping.

    Kid Presentable
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    If that happened the GOP should be held up as fucking traitors to the US for doing the bidding of a foreign power.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    AManFromEarthchrishallett83MvrckZomroCorehealer
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Bush stopped drinking decades ago, IIRC.

    Although I'm pretty sure I remember seeing pictures of him at a baseball game late in his presidency drinking some mysterious beverage that sure seemed to be a beer.

    A high profile reformed alcoholic is not going to relapse in public with an obvious beer. That's not how alcoholism works. If he relapsed, it would be a liiiiitle more subtle than that (eg a hidden vodka bottle).

    If you want to make "insinuations" about Bush relapsing, the standard conspiracy theory is that the pretzel incident was a cover up for a drunken relapse... But I think that is bollocks, too.

    I thought the standard thought on the pretzel incident was that he had a stroke? And I looked for those pictures online but couldn't find them so it's entirely possible my memory is faulty there.

    Anyway, back to Obama, apparently some joker took a picture of the white house from the street with the ISIS/ISIL flag displayed on a smartphone, and a pro ISIL twitter account tweeted it out. The SS are "aware" of the situation.

    http://news.yahoo.com/secret-aware-apparent-isis-flag-photo-front-white-233904913--abc-news-topstories.html

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    If that happened the GOP should be held up as fucking traitors to the US for doing the bidding of a foreign power.

    I think it would be unanimous.

    Spoit
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I know, and that what irks me about how Obama deals with Israel vs how our congress does. Like when a house race in whateverstate comes down to who supports israel more it makes my fucking blood boil.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I thought the standard thought on the pretzel incident was that he choked on a pretzel.

    Obama

    Lh96QHG.png
    zagdrobMild Confusion
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    obama's throat muscles are significantly more resilient. he can eat many pretzels and not give a fuck

    Kid Presentable
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    I thought the standard thought on the pretzel incident was that he choked on a pretzel.

    Obama

    Obama wasn't responsible for the pretzel incident.

    1400082309711.jpg

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    I thought the standard thought on the pretzel incident was that he choked on a pretzel.

    Obama

    Obama wasn't responsible for the pretzel incident.

    1400082309711.jpg

    wasn't he?????

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
    Harry Dresden
  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Widespread civil rights violations are a little different than another sorrowful example of racial profiling from the police in a town.

    I mean did you want bush to send in the national guard during the la riots?

    You're saying that repeated instances of racial profiling and abuse aren't the definition of widespread civil rights violations.

  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The Democrats aren't crazy but they are still, you know, running the US and it's foreign policy. Which is in the "you don't have a global hegemony without bombing a few eggs" wheelhouse.
  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon.

    I've never found this to be terribly persuasive, because it rests on a kind of amorphous conviction that the trial would have played out politically exactly the way you think it would have, and the actors in later scandals would have learned exactly the lesson you think they would have learned. It's usually (although I can't speak to your particular motivation) underwritten by an attitude that if only a righteous smiting is delivered, things would really go much better with the world.

    Is all of that really very knowable?

    Capek on
    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Capek wrote: »
    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon.

    I've never found this to be terribly persuasive, because it rests on a kind of amorphous conviction that the trial would have played out politically exactly the way you think it would have, and the actors in later scandals would have learned exactly the lesson you think they would have learned.

    Is all of that really very knowable?

    We do know what transpired after the pardon and the country suffered for it. At least with Nixon's trial America would have had some history putting its presidents under pressure for breaking the law, rather than continuing the tradition of letting corrupt presidents off without the slightest wrist-slap. Maybe the parties behind Iran-Contra and Bush would have thought twice about being shitheels, you're right we don't know - but I fail to see how it'd be worse than what we got.

    edit: It's tragic that Obama's repeated this shitty policy. The country is never going to get better by not holding its elected officials accountable. The cycle will go on and there's no end in sight.

    Harry Dresden on
    GethGnome-Interruptus
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon.

    I've never found this to be terribly persuasive, because it rests on a kind of amorphous conviction that the trial would have played out politically exactly the way you think it would have, and the actors in later scandals would have learned exactly the lesson you think they would have learned.

    Is all of that really very knowable?

    We do know what transpired after the pardon and the country suffered for it. At least with Nixon's trial America would have had some history putting its presidents under pressure for breaking the law, rather than continuing the tradition of letting corrupt presidents off without the slightest wrist-slap. Maybe the parties behind Iran-Contra and Bush would have thought twice about being shitheels, you're right we don't know - but I fail to see how it'd be worse than what we got.

    edit: It's tragic that Obama's repeated this shitty policy. The country is never going to get better by not holding its elected officials accountable. The cycle will go on and there's no end in sight.

    While I agree with you RE: Obama, there is a compelling case against it, considering that it will always be viewed as a "witch hunt" and set a precedent for an endless cycle of the winners persecuting the losers after every election. Of course, as it stands now, we just have the Republicans persecuting the Democrats always, so I suppose there's that.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    The answer to that is simple: stop doing criminal shit in the Presidency.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Harry Dresden
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon.

    I've never found this to be terribly persuasive, because it rests on a kind of amorphous conviction that the trial would have played out politically exactly the way you think it would have, and the actors in later scandals would have learned exactly the lesson you think they would have learned.

    Is all of that really very knowable?

    We do know what transpired after the pardon and the country suffered for it. At least with Nixon's trial America would have had some history putting its presidents under pressure for breaking the law, rather than continuing the tradition of letting corrupt presidents off without the slightest wrist-slap. Maybe the parties behind Iran-Contra and Bush would have thought twice about being shitheels, you're right we don't know - but I fail to see how it'd be worse than what we got.

    edit: It's tragic that Obama's repeated this shitty policy. The country is never going to get better by not holding its elected officials accountable. The cycle will go on and there's no end in sight.

    While I agree with you RE: Obama, there is a compelling case against it, considering that it will always be viewed as a "witch hunt" and set a precedent for an endless cycle of the winners persecuting the losers after every election. Of course, as it stands now, we just have the Republicans persecuting the Democrats always, so I suppose there's that.

    Yeah, it's tough sell to an incoming administration, one that I assume would rather just set their own political agenda than blow all their capital trying to litigate the crimes of the former administration. And there's no guarantee, as people are pretty good about hiding their tracks and falling on their sword for the higher ups. You could expend a whole lot of effort trying to say...go after Cheney, and end up getting only a lowly deputy in the end. Which is probably why Obama wasn't all that interested in doing so, though he probably wishes he had now that Cheney feels so free to badmouth everything he's doing.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Capek wrote: »
    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon.

    I've never found this to be terribly persuasive, because it rests on a kind of amorphous conviction that the trial would have played out politically exactly the way you think it would have, and the actors in later scandals would have learned exactly the lesson you think they would have learned.

    Is all of that really very knowable?

    We do know what transpired after the pardon and the country suffered for it. At least with Nixon's trial America would have had some history putting its presidents under pressure for breaking the law, rather than continuing the tradition of letting corrupt presidents off without the slightest wrist-slap. Maybe the parties behind Iran-Contra and Bush would have thought twice about being shitheels, you're right we don't know - but I fail to see how it'd be worse than what we got.

    edit: It's tragic that Obama's repeated this shitty policy. The country is never going to get better by not holding its elected officials accountable. The cycle will go on and there's no end in sight.

    While I agree with you RE: Obama, there is a compelling case against it, considering that it will always be viewed as a "witch hunt" and set a precedent for an endless cycle of the winners persecuting the losers after every election. Of course, as it stands now, we just have the Republicans persecuting the Democrats always, so I suppose there's that.

    Doing nothing is worse. What we have is a system that makes anyone in the higher echelons of government unofficially immune to criminal charges for crimes on a high scale. There will always be retaliation in politics, that's not a good reason to let justice become a farce, it becomes very important for those who break the law with government authority to be accountable, because we deserve better then to have a government acting like a third world country. I'd appreciate it if the Democrats got a clue about standing up to those assholes and going after criminals in their own ranks, they're the only party in the nation who can oppose war criminals on that level, the GOP isn't going to it for us. This has a side effect of tainting Obama's every Democratic president after him and the Democratic party as a whole for enabling war criminals and they're not shamed to do so - Democrats should be better than that. The country should be better than that.
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    No, it really isn't. The road to Iran-Contra and the excesses of the Bush Administration leads from the Ford pardon.

    I've never found this to be terribly persuasive, because it rests on a kind of amorphous conviction that the trial would have played out politically exactly the way you think it would have, and the actors in later scandals would have learned exactly the lesson you think they would have learned.

    Is all of that really very knowable?

    We do know what transpired after the pardon and the country suffered for it. At least with Nixon's trial America would have had some history putting its presidents under pressure for breaking the law, rather than continuing the tradition of letting corrupt presidents off without the slightest wrist-slap. Maybe the parties behind Iran-Contra and Bush would have thought twice about being shitheels, you're right we don't know - but I fail to see how it'd be worse than what we got.

    edit: It's tragic that Obama's repeated this shitty policy. The country is never going to get better by not holding its elected officials accountable. The cycle will go on and there's no end in sight.

    While I agree with you RE: Obama, there is a compelling case against it, considering that it will always be viewed as a "witch hunt" and set a precedent for an endless cycle of the winners persecuting the losers after every election. Of course, as it stands now, we just have the Republicans persecuting the Democrats always, so I suppose there's that.

    Yeah, it's tough sell to an incoming administration, one that I assume would rather just set their own political agenda than blow all their capital trying to litigate the crimes of the former administration. And there's no guarantee, as people are pretty good about hiding their tracks and falling on their sword for the higher ups. You could expend a whole lot of effort trying to say...go after Cheney, and end up getting only a lowly deputy in the end. Which is probably why Obama wasn't all that interested in doing so, though he probably wishes he had now that Cheney feels so free to badmouth everything he's doing.

    There's no guarantee in anything, it's the right thing to do for the country. So what if they can't catch Cheney now, they should try their best, learn what they can to find their strengths and weaknesses in prosecuting war criminals and go forward with increasing their chances the next time it happens and it will. There's absolutely no reason why any president shouldn't commit war crimes now, that's how we got Iran Contra and Bush in the first place. You don't tell police to stop investigating a high profile criminal because they might fail, why do that with criminals that are in the highest levels of government? Going after them sooner rather than later is also better since the momentum decreases over the years and we end up with no good time to prosecute war criminals. They win, and they don't even have to get a pardon for it. That's why it's a disgrace that Obama didn't make them a priority.

    Harry Dresden on
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    I don't necessarily disagree with you Harry, but perhaps this part of the thread should be split off, as all we're going to do is the get the thread locked.

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    The answer to that is simple: stop doing criminal shit in the Presidency.

    That seems like a pretty low bar, but also a basically impossible one to meet. I doubt that any president since FDR* hasn't done something while in office that broke a law. International for certain (we sure do love our black ops on foreign soil), domestic too maybe.

    *And I'm only limiting the timeframe because there's at least one president that it's pretty obvious could not have broken any laws (Harrison), and I don't want to spend time scouring wikipedia to remember what skeletons Taft has in his closet

This discussion has been closed.