Again you want the government to not do something because these people are crazy with weaponry and might hurt others. This is not a tenable solution to me, because that means anytime someone wants the feds to not do something, they hole up with a rifle and say they aren't going to hurt anyone as long as the government takes no action.
As far as taxes/liens/whatever, Bundy is a million in the hole to the feds it hasn't done shit to him, and he's expanded his cattle graze.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
By the way the process is "You are under arrest. Put down your guns, or they will be put down for you."
What do you expect the response to be of the first person from this who is arrested?
Assuming that they are arrested without making the evening news, how many folks do you think can be arrested before news of the arrests makes its way onto whatever forums/discussion boards/phone lists these people use?
Once that happens, what do you expect them to do?
Well they are allowed to peacefully protest and if they violate the law they get arrested. And the US government doesn't act like a bunch of cowards being held hostage by hillbilly bullies.
Got a plan for a new Whiskey Rebellion crushing that doesn't involve several hundred innocent people getting shot? Think it through, what is the rational (in the economic, rational actor sense) response from these folks when you start arresting them? Walk through the process and if you can come up with a plan to arrest and prosecute them I'm all ears. Everything else is wishful thinking, actions that will do more harm than good or limiting the enforcement to the original dispute.
Innocent?
If you are in a state of open armed rebellion, you aren't innocent. "If you mess with the bull" seems especially appropriate in this case
You sure that all 66 of those people are in open armed rebellion? That's just Bundy too, I have no doubt this gets worse when you start to include the other couple hundred folks families.
You're right we should encourage the use of human shields AND armed rebellion.
The cattle aren't grazing adjacent to their house. They are on Federal land. A group of people armed with guns followed them for miles and threatened them including Bundy's adult offspring. Those people should be arrested. If they threaten resistance they should still be arrested. If they fire at law enforcement they should be subdued with whatever means are necessary. Having kids and guns doesn't make you above the law.
You're dodging the question. The question was: how many innocent people are you prepared to turn into collateral damage in the process of punishing the folks who are involved in this?
Well, ok, that's the very blunt version of the question. The actual question is how do you plan to keep that number at 0? Feel free to answer either. Unacceptable answers include saying that they deserve to take a chance on getting shot because their parents told them that bad man are coming to take them away, and that the bad men want to hurt them, and they're too young to know their parents are bat shit insane. Which is what you just did.
edit: @Trace same questions for you. How do you ensure that innocents don't get hurt?
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Yeah there is no excuse here.
Let the law fall on these bastards hard.
Also maybe roll a tank or two up into his house and then claim that they aren't parked illegally on a civilian structure and nope we're not gonna quit it.
I'm gonna make a note that next time I commit a crime I should then hide out in a house with a lot of kids in it. Then the police won't come in. Because the police do not come in when there are kids there that could possibly end up unhappy that their mommy and daddy are being arrested for committing criminal acts.
What you do in the case of "person we would like to arrest is taking people hostage" is to do what has to be done in that situation. You give them ample time to explain to their kids why they're such scumbags, and if they exceed that time-period without coming out you either start playing "breach, bang, and clear" or "toss in the tear-gas, smoke 'em out."
I tell you what these pants pissing cowards do when their buddies get arrested for Treason. Fucking nothing, just like they do about everything else. Isolated from the group and facing prison time I guarenfuckingtee you these guys will back down in an instant. Letting them get away with this shit will lead to more of this crap not less of it.
It was a tactical move to allow the situation to calm down with Bundy, but if it does not actually calm down and instead they fortify and double down, then you have to actually pull the trigger, its messy, people will die, but they will die because Bundy is a fucking idiot not because the federal government is tyranical.
I don't want the US gov cow towing to crazy like the Ukraine is doing, because than we might as well not have a government.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
By the way, what the guys with weapons were doing can quite easily be placed in the aggravated assault category. It's a bit beyond court orders for them now.
So if he doesn't recognize the federal government that means he totally wouldn't dare keep or spend any US Dollars right?
There's so much shit it should mean.
Including things like "wellp, you don't have any first or second amendment rights recognized by the government as you're apparently not a citizen governed by our constitution. Also, you don't have any 4th Amendment rights either so..."
Basically, some guy in Nevada grazes his cattle on federal land, for which there's a fee that should be paid. He skips out on that for 22 years and gets upset when his cattle are confiscated. Then he and a couple hundred of his closest friends internet strangers show up to take the cattle back from the Burea of Land Management. A stand off then ensues in which large quantities of crazy show up and law enforcement decides to let Bundy and friends leave with the cattle for now. The BLM says they will be pursuing this issue in the future, Bundy says a bunch of different things regarding states rights and to whom he should be paying fines (apparently he'll pay Nevada, but not the US government).
My personal favorite bit out of all this is the following:
The federal government owns the disputed land and has claimed ownership since before Nevada even joined the union, according to a 2013 U.S. District Court ruling.
“[T]he public lands in Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States,” the ruling states, confirming the federal government’s longstanding claim that it lawfully acquired ownership of the land under the Treaty of the Guadalupe Hidalgo.
The court rejected Bundy’s repeated claim to having an intergenerational right to use the land as invalid and said his arguments against federal ownership carry no legal weight.
“Bundy has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of fact regarding federal ownership or management of public lands in Nevada,” the decision reads.
It’s important to note that like most states, in its constitution Nevada recognizes federal authority over public lands:
That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States; and that lands belonging to citizens of the United States, residing without the said state, shall never be taxed higher than the land belonging to the residents thereof; and that no taxes shall be imposed by said state on lands or property therein belonging to, or which may hereafter be purchased by, the United States, unless otherwise provided by the congress of the United States. [Amended in 1956. Proposed and passed by the 1953 legislature; agreed to and passed by the 1955 legislature; approved and ratified by the people at the 1956 general election. See: Statutes of Nevada 1953, p. 718; Statutes of Nevada 1955, p. 926.]
In 1934, Congress enacted the Taylor Grazing Act, giving the federal government the authority to regulate grazing on the public lands in an effort to improve rangeland conditions.
Twelve years later, the General Land Office and Grazing Service were combined to form the Bureau of Land Management, which has been given the authority to regulate public lands, including nearly 600,000 acres in Gold Butte.
Lastly, it’s worth remembering Nevada joined the union in 1864. Bundy’s family didn’t start working the Clark Country area until the late 1880s.
All in all this guy is just a shitbag who's hilariously ignorant of his land's actual history and is hiding behind MAH FREEDUM, MURICA. This is one situation where it really wouldn't have been a tragedy if the Feds had just steamrolled everyone there because they were all clearly in the wrong in a huge way. The Feds probably did the right thing in not engaging him and turning it into an even bigger conflict but meh, fuck people like Cliven.
So if he doesn't recognize the federal government that means he totally wouldn't dare keep or spend any US Dollars right?
There's so much shit it should mean.
Including things like "wellp, you don't have any first or second amendment rights recognized by the government as you're apparently not a citizen governed by our constitution. Also, you don't have any 4th Amendment rights either so..."
The good thing about being a citizen is that the laws of the government and the rights granted to citizens apply to you whether you want them to or not
You aim well and don't let yourself be a coward too afraid to uphold the law in violation of your oath as a law enforcement officer?
I believe there was a Keanu Reeves solution to this problem...
go surfing with Swayze?
No other movie where Keanu played a hot shot police officer. Shoot the hostage, take them out of the equation. In the Bundy's case less than lethal gas options, anyone who dies in the attack is a tragedy but they are on Bundy's head.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
You aim well and don't let yourself be a coward too afraid to uphold the law in violation of your oath as a law enforcement officer?
Worked great at Ruby Ridge, and Waco.
You start arresting them, they bunker up and innocent people die. You make sure that Bundy gets penalized appropriately for the original fines and all costs associated with collecting them, you make sure to be very loud about your success and let the crazy folks scare their supporters away and then you let them die of old age. No innocents die and you keep control of the story. The small subset of folks who are attempting to revolt stays crazy and most importantly small.
Right now, the story these guys have is that they prevented the government from taking Bundy's cattle. Take the cattle and their story is that they were able to delay it. Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
That last story puts armed protestors in streets. It will feed the very thing you're attempting to convince people not to do. Better to not cause what is basically the Streisand Effect and just keep the national story on the cows and the failure to prevent law enforcement. Sooner or later Bundy's cows will leave his land. He can't effectively guard them once they're back to roaming on federal land (at least not in a fashion that doesn't bankrupt him), so you take them then. The US government is a government. It doesn't need to play this short pound of flesh game you're advocating.
So if he doesn't recognize the federal government that means he totally wouldn't dare keep or spend any US Dollars right?
There's so much shit it should mean.
Including things like "wellp, you don't have any first or second amendment rights recognized by the government as you're apparently not a citizen governed by our constitution. Also, you don't have any 4th Amendment rights either so..."
The good thing about being a citizen is that the laws of the government and the rights granted to citizens apply to you whether you want them to or not
Indeed, that is a good thing. Though you can give them up by renouncing your citizenship... I guess it's fortunate for geese like Bundy that if you're too stupid to realize that you're a citizen you're also too stupid to be able to renounce said citizenship.
If people get shot and die Fox News should be held accountable for stirring the pot.
We should hold the hucksters and con-men who run these Sovereign Citizen scams accountable. They're the ones who put on seminars and sell kits and programs that gets everyone believing this nonsense.
You aim well and don't let yourself be a coward too afraid to uphold the law in violation of your oath as a law enforcement officer?
Worked great at Ruby Ridge, and Waco.
You start arresting them, they bunker up and innocent people die. You make sure that Bundy gets penalized appropriately for the original fines and all costs associated with collecting them, you make sure to be very loud about your success and let the crazy folks scare their supporters away and then you let them die of old age.
Right now, the story these guys have is that they prevented the government from taking Bundy's cattle. Take the cattle and their story is that they were able to delay it. Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
That last story puts armed protestors in streets. It will feed the very thing you're attempting to convince people not to do. Better to not cause what is basically the Streisand Effect and just keep the national story on the cows and the failure to prevent law enforcement. Sooner or later Bundy's cows will leave his land. He can't effectively guard them once they're back to roaming on federal land (at least not in a fashion that doesn't bankrupt him), so you take them then. The US government is a government. It doesn't need to play this short pound of flesh game you're advocating.
This is completely rank speculation on your part with no history in reality. Were there armed protests after Waco or Ruby Ridge? I admit I was a young man back then but I don't think so.
And you keep talking about they didn't hurt anyone, but they very much tried to provoke a response for that very thing to happen. They are attempting to incite an insurrection, you don't molly coddle this shit.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
So if he doesn't recognize the federal government that means he totally wouldn't dare keep or spend any US Dollars right?
There's so much shit it should mean.
Including things like "wellp, you don't have any first or second amendment rights recognized by the government as you're apparently not a citizen governed by our constitution. Also, you don't have any 4th Amendment rights either so..."
The good thing about being a citizen is that the laws of the government and the rights granted to citizens apply to you whether you want them to or not
Indeed, that is a good thing. Though you can give them up by renouncing your citizenship... I guess it's fortunate for geese like Bundy that if you're too stupid to realize that you're a citizen you're also too stupid to be able to renounce said citizenship.
Bundy basically has, he just hasn't filled out the paper work. He refuses to recognize the US government as existing, thus it is not possible for him to renounce his citizenship (which he believes he does not have).
You aim well and don't let yourself be a coward too afraid to uphold the law in violation of your oath as a law enforcement officer?
Worked great at Ruby Ridge, and Waco.
You start arresting them, they bunker up and innocent people die. You make sure that Bundy gets penalized appropriately for the original fines and all costs associated with collecting them, you make sure to be very loud about your success and let the crazy folks scare their supporters away and then you let them die of old age. No innocents die and you keep control of the story. The small subset of folks who are attempting to revolt stays crazy and most importantly small.
Right now, the story these guys have is that they prevented the government from taking Bundy's cattle. Take the cattle and their story is that they were able to delay it. Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
That last story puts armed protestors in streets. It will feed the very thing you're attempting to convince people not to do. Better to not cause what is basically the Streisand Effect and just keep the national story on the cows and the failure to prevent law enforcement. Sooner or later Bundy's cows will leave his land. He can't effectively guard them once they're back to roaming on federal land (at least not in a fashion that doesn't bankrupt him), so you take them then. The US government is a government. It doesn't need to play this short pound of flesh game you're advocating.
So what if this puts armed protesters in the streets? If they wanna go shooting up the US streets, then we take them out as well.
And I'm not suggesting they move in right now and arrest them while they are bunkered up. You get them when they are leaving because Bundy isn't self sufficient. And I guarentee there won't be some big massive protest when you arrest people for pointing weapons at federal officers, because most rational people can admit that's a pretty fucking dumb thing to do and you should be arrested for doing it.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
So if he doesn't recognize the federal government that means he totally wouldn't dare keep or spend any US Dollars right?
There's so much shit it should mean.
Including things like "wellp, you don't have any first or second amendment rights recognized by the government as you're apparently not a citizen governed by our constitution. Also, you don't have any 4th Amendment rights either so..."
The good thing about being a citizen is that the laws of the government and the rights granted to citizens apply to you whether you want them to or not
Indeed, that is a good thing. Though you can give them up by renouncing your citizenship... I guess it's fortunate for geese like Bundy that if you're too stupid to realize that you're a citizen you're also too stupid to be able to renounce said citizenship.
Bundy basically has, he just hasn't filled out the paper work. He refuses to recognize the US government as existing, thus it is not possible for him to renounce his citizenship (which he believes he does not have).
So then he gets thrown in jail by USCIS for being an illegal alien. And rots there forever unless he can find another nation willing to take him.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
You aim well and don't let yourself be a coward too afraid to uphold the law in violation of your oath as a law enforcement officer?
Worked great at Ruby Ridge, and Waco.
You start arresting them, they bunker up and innocent people die. You make sure that Bundy gets penalized appropriately for the original fines and all costs associated with collecting them, you make sure to be very loud about your success and let the crazy folks scare their supporters away and then you let them die of old age.
Right now, the story these guys have is that they prevented the government from taking Bundy's cattle. Take the cattle and their story is that they were able to delay it. Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
That last story puts armed protestors in streets. It will feed the very thing you're attempting to convince people not to do. Better to not cause what is basically the Streisand Effect and just keep the national story on the cows and the failure to prevent law enforcement. Sooner or later Bundy's cows will leave his land. He can't effectively guard them once they're back to roaming on federal land (at least not in a fashion that doesn't bankrupt him), so you take them then. The US government is a government. It doesn't need to play this short pound of flesh game you're advocating.
This is completely rank speculation on your part with no history in reality. Were there armed protests after Waco or Ruby Ridge? I admit I was a young man back then but I don't think so.
Ruby Ridge was ~5-7 people, including the actual criminals. Waco was 76 or so non-LEO fatalities, so it's closer in scale to Bundy's compound with just his extended family. Since then it's stayed a rallying cry for US government tyranny among the sets that currently want to revolt, as well as (according to wikipedia and associated sources):
Timothy McVeigh cited the Waco incident as a primary motivation[118] for the Oklahoma City bombing,
So, not exactly rank speculation. It's worth noting, those were both at times when the internet did not provide a way for videos from inside the various compounds to come out either. Which is to say, public reaction was much better than it could have been if people had been able to use video from the Branch Dividians to support claims that the police are jack booted thugs looking for an excuse to blah blah blah.
You keep talking about they didn't hurt anyone, but they very much tried to provoke a response for that very thing to happen. They are attempting to incite an insurrection, you don't molly coddle this shit.
Why not molly coddle this shit? They've been ranting and raving for years and the only thing that seems to accomplish is that their membership drops when the economy does well and increases when it does poorly. The only time they make the news for more than a day or two is when the police get involved in a stand off and don't leave, so why give them the free air time to attempt to recruit?
That is such a great picture feral and yes it explains what happens when I hear his name.
And Syrdon I really hope you're not saying in some way the Oklahoma City Bombing was legitimate because of Waco, because I swear that's what it seems like you are saying.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
You aim well and don't let yourself be a coward too afraid to uphold the law in violation of your oath as a law enforcement officer?
Worked great at Ruby Ridge, and Waco.
You start arresting them, they bunker up and innocent people die. You make sure that Bundy gets penalized appropriately for the original fines and all costs associated with collecting them, you make sure to be very loud about your success and let the crazy folks scare their supporters away and then you let them die of old age. No innocents die and you keep control of the story. The small subset of folks who are attempting to revolt stays crazy and most importantly small.
Right now, the story these guys have is that they prevented the government from taking Bundy's cattle. Take the cattle and their story is that they were able to delay it. Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
That last story puts armed protestors in streets. It will feed the very thing you're attempting to convince people not to do. Better to not cause what is basically the Streisand Effect and just keep the national story on the cows and the failure to prevent law enforcement. Sooner or later Bundy's cows will leave his land. He can't effectively guard them once they're back to roaming on federal land (at least not in a fashion that doesn't bankrupt him), so you take them then. The US government is a government. It doesn't need to play this short pound of flesh game you're advocating.
Yes it did. What exactly do you think happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco?
I'm not trying to convince people to follow the law. You don't ask people to follow the law. You tell them and if they don't they face consequences. That's both Bundy and people who might "take to the streets". If they follow the law, cool. If they don't, they go to jail.
Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
You keep repeating that they "didn't hurt anyone".
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what laws are and how they work.
I'm aware of which laws they broke. You're missing that there will absolutely be fall out from arresting them. Arresting them is entirely within the law and will play horrifically with everyone who votes Republican. There are more Republicans than law enforcement officials. Start that fight and rule of law loses in a simple numbers battle. Or you could avoid that fight and simply make them look like idiots (well, crazy idiots, but they'll handle the crazy), which has the nice benefit of not making a bad situation worse, and gives you time to deal with the 'the government is out to take what's rightfully yours' line that the GOP and friends have been spreading for years and is driving this issue.
In short: don't give that movement any more ammunition than they already have. Just make them seem as crazy and stupid as they are and let them push their less ardent supporters away and then die of old age.
You keep talking about they didn't hurt anyone, but they very much tried to provoke a response for that very thing to happen. They are attempting to incite an insurrection, you don't molly coddle this shit.
Why not molly coddle this shit? They've been ranting and raving for years and the only thing that seems to accomplish is that their membership drops when the economy does well and increases when it does poorly. The only time they make the news for more than a day or two is when the police get involved in a stand off and don't leave, so why give them the free air time to attempt to recruit?
You do realize the militia movement sprang to life again because a democrat was in the white house and right wing fear machine cranked up their bullshit right? It has nothing to do with the federal government enforcing their laws or not. For me Bundy hasn't paid this shit for twenty plus years and now that he's gone national the longer you let him get away with it, the more fucking idiots who think like him will do the same shit and I don't want the eastern washington slow mutants getting any ideas.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
You keep talking about they didn't hurt anyone, but they very much tried to provoke a response for that very thing to happen. They are attempting to incite an insurrection, you don't molly coddle this shit.
Why not molly coddle this shit? They've been ranting and raving for years and the only thing that seems to accomplish is that their membership drops when the economy does well and increases when it does poorly. The only time they make the news for more than a day or two is when the police get involved in a stand off and don't leave, so why give them the free air time to attempt to recruit?
You do realize the militia movement sprang to life again because a democrat was in the white house and right wing fear machine cranked up their bullshit right? It has nothing to do with the federal government enforcing their laws or not. For me Bundy hasn't paid this shit for twenty plus years and now that he's gone national the longer you let him get away with it, the more fucking idiots who think like him will do the same shit and I don't want the eastern washington slow mutants getting any ideas.
So why deal with what is basically an issue of failing to reasonably manage the national conversation by arresting people? If the right wing stirring up shit is really the cause of this, then why not deal with that? More exactly, why give that right wing fear machine more fuel? Arresting the several hundred supporters this guy had show up will absolutely do that. Calling them misguided, or even stupid, after you've got the cattle in some lot somewhere in New York doesn't give them any new ammunition, and it removes the bit about these folks being successful at stopping the government.
After that, the current right wing is on it's way out. Not quickly, but demographics are going to kill it even if the democrats can't manage to be in office when the economy recovering finally gets around to affecting a large number of people (or the american left manages something else to make them seem like the good guys)
The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existance [existence], and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.
Someone has to have explained to him that the State Constitution he's so keen on not only says that the Federal Government exists, but also that it is specifically allowed to use force on his little Burning Man For Morons.
Right?
Shit changes, dude, and you don't get to pick and choose which changes apply to you.
Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
You keep repeating that they "didn't hurt anyone".
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what laws are and how they work.
I'm aware of which laws they broke. You're missing that there will absolutely be fall out from arresting them. Arresting them is entirely within the law and will play horrifically with everyone who votes Republican. There are more Republicans than law enforcement officials. Start that fight and rule of law loses in a simple numbers battle. Or you could avoid that fight and simply make them look like idiots (well, crazy idiots, but they'll handle the crazy), which has the nice benefit of not making a bad situation worse, and gives you time to deal with the 'the government is out to take what's rightfully yours' line that the GOP and friends have been spreading for years and is driving this issue.
In short: don't give that movement any more ammunition than they already have. Just make them seem as crazy and stupid as they are and let them push their less ardent supporters away and then die of old age.
First, fuck that capitulation shit.
Second, you live in a fantasy world if you think this would cause Republicans to rise up en masse to overthrow all law enforcement.
Third, know what makes people seem crazy and stupid? Declaring yourself a sovereign citizen from behind bars.
Guess what - the government was right to go into Waco too. A bunch of armed to the teeth child raping cultists don't get immunity because they might die after they killed federal agents. And when they committed suicide to avoid capture after a drawn out siege and gun fight, we didn't have armed rebellion taking over the country.
You keep talking about they didn't hurt anyone, but they very much tried to provoke a response for that very thing to happen. They are attempting to incite an insurrection, you don't molly coddle this shit.
Why not molly coddle this shit? They've been ranting and raving for years and the only thing that seems to accomplish is that their membership drops when the economy does well and increases when it does poorly. The only time they make the news for more than a day or two is when the police get involved in a stand off and don't leave, so why give them the free air time to attempt to recruit?
You do realize the militia movement sprang to life again because a democrat was in the white house and right wing fear machine cranked up their bullshit right? It has nothing to do with the federal government enforcing their laws or not. For me Bundy hasn't paid this shit for twenty plus years and now that he's gone national the longer you let him get away with it, the more fucking idiots who think like him will do the same shit and I don't want the eastern washington slow mutants getting any ideas.
So why deal with what is basically an issue of failing to reasonably manage the national conversation by arresting people? If the right wing stirring up shit is really the cause of this, then why not deal with that? More exactly, why give that right wing fear machine more fuel? Arresting the several hundred supporters this guy had show up will absolutely do that. Calling them misguided, or even stupid, after you've got the cattle in some lot somewhere in New York doesn't give them any new ammunition, and it removes the bit about these folks being successful at stopping the government.
We arrest people who break the law and present a danger to other people. Brandishing assault rifles at park rangers and trying to incite violence while arranging for women to be human shields is dangerous.
This isn't some OWS protest where people were singing kumbaya and got blasted in the eyes with a food product (thanks Bill O), these were armed militia men assholes who wanted to start shooting americans because those americans represent a governement they don't like. We don't want to encourage this situation.
I mean why shouldn't all right wingers get in a complex and refuse to pay their taxes and tell people they'll shoot someone approaching, according to you that's fine as long as they don't shoot anyone. To me that shit ain't fine.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
So we should never enforce laws against crazy people because they or their crazy friends might do something stupid?
I really hate how hypocritical the right is on this issue. if this was a black guy in the city they'd be cheering as the cops gunned him down. Rich white rancher? Folk hero.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
That is such a great picture feral and yes it explains what happens when I hear his name.
And Syrdon I really hope you're not saying in some way the Oklahoma City Bombing was legitimate because of Waco, because I swear that's what it seems like you are saying.
I believe his point was that incidents like Waco stir the crazies up which increases the probability that a crazy will lash out and actually do something, such as McVeigh (who as Syrdon mentioned, cited Waco as a motivator for what he did). I'm not sure how you read that as him trying to legitimize the bombing. He was just pointing out a likely motivating factor for McVeigh.
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As far as taxes/liens/whatever, Bundy is a million in the hole to the feds it hasn't done shit to him, and he's expanded his cattle graze.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Well they are allowed to peacefully protest and if they violate the law they get arrested. And the US government doesn't act like a bunch of cowards being held hostage by hillbilly bullies.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Well, ok, that's the very blunt version of the question. The actual question is how do you plan to keep that number at 0? Feel free to answer either. Unacceptable answers include saying that they deserve to take a chance on getting shot because their parents told them that bad man are coming to take them away, and that the bad men want to hurt them, and they're too young to know their parents are bat shit insane. Which is what you just did.
edit: @Trace same questions for you. How do you ensure that innocents don't get hurt?
Let the law fall on these bastards hard.
Also maybe roll a tank or two up into his house and then claim that they aren't parked illegally on a civilian structure and nope we're not gonna quit it.
What you do in the case of "person we would like to arrest is taking people hostage" is to do what has to be done in that situation. You give them ample time to explain to their kids why they're such scumbags, and if they exceed that time-period without coming out you either start playing "breach, bang, and clear" or "toss in the tear-gas, smoke 'em out."
It was a tactical move to allow the situation to calm down with Bundy, but if it does not actually calm down and instead they fortify and double down, then you have to actually pull the trigger, its messy, people will die, but they will die because Bundy is a fucking idiot not because the federal government is tyranical.
I don't want the US gov cow towing to crazy like the Ukraine is doing, because than we might as well not have a government.
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I believe there was a Keanu Reeves solution to this problem...
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There's so much shit it should mean.
Including things like "wellp, you don't have any first or second amendment rights recognized by the government as you're apparently not a citizen governed by our constitution. Also, you don't have any 4th Amendment rights either so..."
Hell, even Glenn Beck's site has a pretty fair write up on it: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/13/is-harry-reid-involved-seven-answers-to-seven-questions-youre-probably-asking-right-now-about-the-nevada-rancher-situation/
My personal favorite bit out of all this is the following:
And before anyone brings up the whole solar plant theory:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp
TL;DR It's false.
All in all this guy is just a shitbag who's hilariously ignorant of his land's actual history and is hiding behind MAH FREEDUM, MURICA. This is one situation where it really wouldn't have been a tragedy if the Feds had just steamrolled everyone there because they were all clearly in the wrong in a huge way. The Feds probably did the right thing in not engaging him and turning it into an even bigger conflict but meh, fuck people like Cliven.
While meanwhile claiming that Nevada is a sovereign state and they don't recognize the US government as existing.
go surfing with Swayze?
The good thing about being a citizen is that the laws of the government and the rights granted to citizens apply to you whether you want them to or not
No other movie where Keanu played a hot shot police officer. Shoot the hostage, take them out of the equation. In the Bundy's case less than lethal gas options, anyone who dies in the attack is a tragedy but they are on Bundy's head.
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You start arresting them, they bunker up and innocent people die. You make sure that Bundy gets penalized appropriately for the original fines and all costs associated with collecting them, you make sure to be very loud about your success and let the crazy folks scare their supporters away and then you let them die of old age. No innocents die and you keep control of the story. The small subset of folks who are attempting to revolt stays crazy and most importantly small.
Right now, the story these guys have is that they prevented the government from taking Bundy's cattle. Take the cattle and their story is that they were able to delay it. Arrest them and their story becomes that you've sent SWAT teams to arrest people who didn't hurt anyone.
That last story puts armed protestors in streets. It will feed the very thing you're attempting to convince people not to do. Better to not cause what is basically the Streisand Effect and just keep the national story on the cows and the failure to prevent law enforcement. Sooner or later Bundy's cows will leave his land. He can't effectively guard them once they're back to roaming on federal land (at least not in a fashion that doesn't bankrupt him), so you take them then. The US government is a government. It doesn't need to play this short pound of flesh game you're advocating.
Indeed, that is a good thing. Though you can give them up by renouncing your citizenship... I guess it's fortunate for geese like Bundy that if you're too stupid to realize that you're a citizen you're also too stupid to be able to renounce said citizenship.
We should hold the hucksters and con-men who run these Sovereign Citizen scams accountable. They're the ones who put on seminars and sell kits and programs that gets everyone believing this nonsense.
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This is completely rank speculation on your part with no history in reality. Were there armed protests after Waco or Ruby Ridge? I admit I was a young man back then but I don't think so.
And you keep talking about they didn't hurt anyone, but they very much tried to provoke a response for that very thing to happen. They are attempting to incite an insurrection, you don't molly coddle this shit.
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So what if this puts armed protesters in the streets? If they wanna go shooting up the US streets, then we take them out as well.
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You keep repeating that they "didn't hurt anyone".
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what laws are and how they work.
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So then he gets thrown in jail by USCIS for being an illegal alien. And rots there forever unless he can find another nation willing to take him.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
So, not exactly rank speculation. It's worth noting, those were both at times when the internet did not provide a way for videos from inside the various compounds to come out either. Which is to say, public reaction was much better than it could have been if people had been able to use video from the Branch Dividians to support claims that the police are jack booted thugs looking for an excuse to blah blah blah.
Why not molly coddle this shit? They've been ranting and raving for years and the only thing that seems to accomplish is that their membership drops when the economy does well and increases when it does poorly. The only time they make the news for more than a day or two is when the police get involved in a stand off and don't leave, so why give them the free air time to attempt to recruit?
Unleash the Pitbulls on them.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And Syrdon I really hope you're not saying in some way the Oklahoma City Bombing was legitimate because of Waco, because I swear that's what it seems like you are saying.
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Yes it did. What exactly do you think happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco?
I'm not trying to convince people to follow the law. You don't ask people to follow the law. You tell them and if they don't they face consequences. That's both Bundy and people who might "take to the streets". If they follow the law, cool. If they don't, they go to jail.
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In short: don't give that movement any more ammunition than they already have. Just make them seem as crazy and stupid as they are and let them push their less ardent supporters away and then die of old age.
You do realize the militia movement sprang to life again because a democrat was in the white house and right wing fear machine cranked up their bullshit right? It has nothing to do with the federal government enforcing their laws or not. For me Bundy hasn't paid this shit for twenty plus years and now that he's gone national the longer you let him get away with it, the more fucking idiots who think like him will do the same shit and I don't want the eastern washington slow mutants getting any ideas.
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After that, the current right wing is on it's way out. Not quickly, but demographics are going to kill it even if the democrats can't manage to be in office when the economy recovering finally gets around to affecting a large number of people (or the american left manages something else to make them seem like the good guys)
Someone has to have explained to him that the State Constitution he's so keen on not only says that the Federal Government exists, but also that it is specifically allowed to use force on his little Burning Man For Morons.
Right?
Shit changes, dude, and you don't get to pick and choose which changes apply to you.
Second, you live in a fantasy world if you think this would cause Republicans to rise up en masse to overthrow all law enforcement.
Third, know what makes people seem crazy and stupid? Declaring yourself a sovereign citizen from behind bars.
Guess what - the government was right to go into Waco too. A bunch of armed to the teeth child raping cultists don't get immunity because they might die after they killed federal agents. And when they committed suicide to avoid capture after a drawn out siege and gun fight, we didn't have armed rebellion taking over the country.
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We arrest people who break the law and present a danger to other people. Brandishing assault rifles at park rangers and trying to incite violence while arranging for women to be human shields is dangerous.
This isn't some OWS protest where people were singing kumbaya and got blasted in the eyes with a food product (thanks Bill O), these were armed militia men assholes who wanted to start shooting americans because those americans represent a governement they don't like. We don't want to encourage this situation.
I mean why shouldn't all right wingers get in a complex and refuse to pay their taxes and tell people they'll shoot someone approaching, according to you that's fine as long as they don't shoot anyone. To me that shit ain't fine.
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I really hate how hypocritical the right is on this issue. if this was a black guy in the city they'd be cheering as the cops gunned him down. Rich white rancher? Folk hero.
I believe his point was that incidents like Waco stir the crazies up which increases the probability that a crazy will lash out and actually do something, such as McVeigh (who as Syrdon mentioned, cited Waco as a motivator for what he did). I'm not sure how you read that as him trying to legitimize the bombing. He was just pointing out a likely motivating factor for McVeigh.