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A God Damned Separate Thread On Political Outreach To Minorities

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
So, over in the Perry indictment thread, it was pointed out that as the population shifts to a pluralistic base, Texas would slide to purple, and potentially blue. The point was then raised that this viewpoint was paternalistic and insulting to minorities, because it was assuming that minorities would just default to the Democrats.

The problem with that argument, well - I would encourage you to read this piece. It's by a Muslim American blogger, who points out that Muslim Americans were a solid Republican constituency. Until the party turned on them, villifing them.

Which, ultimately, is the true heart of the argument.

You can argue policy all you like - but if you show nothing but contempt for the communities you are trying to bring into the fold, all those words will mean nothing. One only needs to look at the black community to see this - on paper, they have all the hallmarks of a moderate conservative community, yet it's pretty much agreed that Republicans in general have lost them for several generations - at best. The pattern continues over and over with other minority groups. To argue that policy is all that will matter is to argue that people are mercenary and care nothing for their own dignity.

And as we've seen, that's not a winning argument.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The problem with arguing policy is that it ignores how republican policy (when it isn't outright hostile to a minority) works pretty consistently against those groups; "Fuck you, bootstraps!" isn't exactly a winning platform for black people growing up in a declining inner city because no one will invest. "Deport children who walked 800 miles!" isn't going to get you anywhere with Hispanics because odds are they or their ancestors did that because the immigration system is busted. "Your love is wrong!" doesn't work well with Gays because that is how they are wired.

    Until republicans can get past this and make serious efforts at doing outreach with these people Minorities are going to continue to come together to form a giant middle finger to them.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The problem with arguing policy is that it ignores how republican policy (when it isn't outright hostile to a minority) works pretty consistently against those groups; "Fuck you, bootstraps!" isn't exactly a winning platform for black people growing up in a declining inner city because no one will invest. "Deport children who walked 800 miles!" isn't going to get you anywhere with Hispanics because odds are they or their ancestors did that because the immigration system is busted. "Your love is wrong!" doesn't work well with Gays because that is how they are wired.

    Until republicans can get past this and make serious efforts at doing outreach with these people Minorities are going to continue to come together to form a giant middle finger to them.

    Ultimately, the only way that minorities have a place on the conservative side is as long as they understand their place in the social hierarchy. Which is why they keep rejecting the deal. They may not fully agree with the coalition on the left, but at least they get a seat at the table.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    The point was then raised that this viewpoint was paternalistic and insulting to minorities, because it was assuming that minorities would just default to the Democrats.

    I am unmoved by people who get offended by someone pointing to a clear demographic trend.

    If 75% of X votes Dem, and suddenly X increases in size by 25%, the number of Dem voters goes up. This is not paternalism, this is math.

    Is it possible that the GOP will find a way to reach out to minorities of different stripes? Hey, sure, stranger things have happened.

    As to the logistics of the thing, I think it's at least possible that the GOP can continue policies that are, shall we say, unfavorable towards certain groups, if they find a better sales pitch. By way of evidence, look at the poor. The GOP is able to sell their platform to a lot of folks who would be measurably better off under Dem policies, even while overtly insulting that group. They can do this because they have expertly managed to make most of that group think they're not really talking about them. The GOP can tut-tut about moochers on the government dole, and people who are receiving MediCare or unemployment benefits or food stamps assert that they're not talking about them, they're talking about the real moochers, who are... you know, those other guys.

    Part of this, I think, stems from the permanence issue. Sure, the rich are better than the poor, but I won't always be poor! Someday I'll be rich, therefore it's okay to sneer at the other poors! Sure, the non-moochers are better than the moochers, but I won't always be on unemployment! Someday I'll have a job, therefore it's okay to sneer at the other moochers.

    A large part of the negative perception of the GOP is that it maintains a persistent racism, and that's harder to work around than a persistent classism. You might not always be poor, but you're always going to be Hispanic. You might not always be on unemployment, but you'll always be black. The GOP tries to distinguish between the good minorities and the bad minorities. It's not all Hispanics that are bad, just the ones who are here illegally! It's not all blacks that are bad, it's just the ones that talk and dress like thugs and won't get jobs! But there's enough undeniable racism* and dogwhistling going on that the minorities don't seem to care about superficial distinctions.

    The GOP can get away with being dicks to the poor, and they can handwave-away a lot of their rhetoric there. I don't think they can get away with being dicks to minorities, though. They need to more vocally and more overtly call out their most objectionable elements if they want minorities to give them the time of day.

    Of course, this all assumes that the goal of the GOP is to win the hearts of minorities without actually doing anything to directly benefit them. If they want to win them over, the ideal solution is to maybe, you know, help them out.



    *This should not be construed to mean that a majority, or even a large minority, of the GOP are fundamentally racist. It doesn't take many to establish a narrative. Even if you want to assert that there are no more racists in the GOP than there are in the Democratic party, the fact is that the GOP has a stronger perception of being the party of racism, and that's what they need to work against.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    More then simply having a seat they have a voice.

    Like, log cabin republicans are tolerated, but only because their "gayness" is purely anecdotal; the best they can accomplish is to keep fundamentalists from screaming about how gays are servants of satan.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Hispanic/central/south american people of various national origins don't 'default' to the democratic party; there's abundant reason to think they might lean conservative, and republicans could expect to compete for their votes as recently as George W. Bush's re-election.

    the national republican party does not have the 'appearance' of being racist; it is racist, or at least, frequently advocates for racist policies. Eric Cantor just got his head knocked off substantially for being insufficiently nativist, and it wasn't because he equivocated about sealing the border with Canada.

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  • Alinius133Alinius133 Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Hispanic/central/south american people of various national origins don't 'default' to the democratic party; there's abundant reason to think they might lean conservative, and republicans could expect to compete for their votes as recently as George W. Bush's re-election.
    This needs repeating.

    Hispanics comes from a largely Devout Catholic background. Just about every hispanic family I know personally has a kindly old grandmother kicking around who is devoutly Catholic and highly respected by the other family members.

    So you have to ask yourself...
    1. How do you think most hispanics feel about gay marriage?
    2. How do you think most hispanics feel about abortion?
    3. How do you think most hispanics feel about highly secular groups that openly mock devout religious beliefs(IE make fun of grandma)?

    Now that I think about it, I need to talk to my friends about gun control. I am honestly not sure how they feel about that issue. It has never come up.

    Another one I have no idea about is Hillary. Hispanic culture is still very male dominated, I am not sure how they would react to a woman running for president.

    To win over Hispanics, all Republicans need to do is focus on the common ground.

    Alinius133 on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The thing about Hispanic/central/south American (which we really shouldn't be able to lump together) voters is that their really isn't any particular vector for republicans to interact with them; their perception of Christianity is different, their income level is lower, they're more communal... about the only way that republicans could appeal to them is by campaigning for less government interference in their lives but that would mean having to overhaul immigration in a way that would make folks like Joe Arpaio spontaneously combust with rage.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    Alinius133 wrote: »
    Hispanic/central/south american people of various national origins don't 'default' to the democratic party; there's abundant reason to think they might lean conservative, and republicans could expect to compete for their votes as recently as George W. Bush's re-election.
    This needs repeating.

    Hispanics comes from a largely Devout Catholic background. Just about every hispanic family I know personally has a kindly old grandmother kicking around who is devoutly Catholic and highly respected by the other family members.

    So you have to ask yourself...
    1. How do you think most hispanics feel about gay marriage?
    2. How do you think most hispanics feel about abortion?
    3. How do you think most hispanics feel about highly secular groups that openly mock devout religious beliefs(IE make fun of grandma)?

    Now that I think about it, I need to talk to my friends about gun control. I am honestly not sure how they feel about that issue. It has never come up.

    Another one I have no idea about is Hillary. Hispanic culture is still very male dominated, I am not sure how they would react to a woman running for president.

    To win over Hispanics, all Republicans need to do is focus on the common ground.

    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/04/v-politics-values-and-religion/

    Survey from two years ago on Hispanic political views.

    1. Hispanics, and Catholics in general, have a majority (~59%) in favor of gay marriage. In fact, the only group in the US that views gay marriage extremely negatively are evangelicals.
    2. First generation Hispanic immigrants are heavily against legal abortion, while later generations are in favor.

    So no, Republicans aren't going to win over Hispanics by trying to convince them to fight the white evangelical culture war.

    }
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  • Alinius133Alinius133 Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The thing about Hispanic/central/south American (which we really shouldn't be able to lump together) voters is that their really isn't any particular vector for republicans to interact with them; their perception of Christianity is different, their income level is lower, they're more communal... about the only way that republicans could appeal to them is by campaigning for less government interference in their lives but that would mean having to overhaul immigration in a way that would make folks like Joe Arpaio spontaneously combust with rage.

    A couple of points.
    "their perception of Christianity is different" - It seems like the rift between Catholics and Evangelicals is going away. You can thank militant Atheism for this. Nothing like an external threat to bring people together.

    "they're more communal" - This one can cut both ways. Once you earn the right to be a part of their community, you are basically considered family regardless of skin color or political affiliation.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Alinius133 wrote: »
    "their perception of Christianity is different" - It seems like the rift between Catholics and Evangelicals is going away. You can thank militant Atheism for this. Nothing like an external threat to bring people together.

    I'm sure that they're concerned about Atheism, but the fact remains that Hispanic Catholicism has almost no crossover in ideology with southern evangelicals; the primary thrust of their religion is about compassion and forgiveness while that of evangelicals are driven by a fear of damnation.

    Short of not being Abrahamic faiths they couldn't be further apart.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    shryke
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Alinius133 wrote: »
    Hispanic/central/south american people of various national origins don't 'default' to the democratic party; there's abundant reason to think they might lean conservative, and republicans could expect to compete for their votes as recently as George W. Bush's re-election.
    This needs repeating.

    Hispanics comes from a largely Devout Catholic background. Just about every hispanic family I know personally has a kindly old grandmother kicking around who is devoutly Catholic and highly respected by the other family members.

    So you have to ask yourself...
    1. How do you think most hispanics feel about gay marriage?
    2. How do you think most hispanics feel about abortion?
    3. How do you think most hispanics feel about highly secular groups that openly mock devout religious beliefs(IE make fun of grandma)?

    Now that I think about it, I need to talk to my friends about gun control. I am honestly not sure how they feel about that issue. It has never come up.

    Another one I have no idea about is Hillary. Hispanic culture is still very male dominated, I am not sure how they would react to a woman running for president.

    To win over Hispanics, all Republicans need to do is focus on the common ground.

    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/04/v-politics-values-and-religion/

    Survey from two years ago on Hispanic political views.

    1. Hispanics, and Catholics in general, have a majority (~59%) in favor of gay marriage. In fact, the only group in the US that views gay marriage extremely negatively are evangelicals.
    2. First generation Hispanic immigrants are heavily against legal abortion, while later generations are in favor.

    So no, Republicans aren't going to win over Hispanics by trying to convince them to fight the white evangelical culture war.

    And they care more about economic issues anyway, for blindingly obvious reasons.
    The GOP can get away with being dicks to the poor, and they can handwave-away a lot of their rhetoric there. I don't think they can get away with being dicks to minorities, though. They need to more vocally and more overtly call out their most objectionable elements if they want minorities to give them the time of day.

    The being dicks to the poor is actually about being dicks to minorities, which is how they get poor people to vote against their economic interests in the first place (for the most part).

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    "Militant atheism" is not a thing in any meaningful sense. Atheists make up a few percent of the country at most. The number of them who give enough of a shit to be "militant" is small.

    Militant atheism is an imaginary bugaboo conjured by a subset of evangelicals so they would have something to feel persecuted by.

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    Like most racist stereotypes, the 'Hispanics are Catholics and thus homophobic' meme doesn't actually hold up well to reality.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Alinius133 wrote: »
    Hispanic/central/south american people of various national origins don't 'default' to the democratic party; there's abundant reason to think they might lean conservative, and republicans could expect to compete for their votes as recently as George W. Bush's re-election.
    This needs repeating.

    Hispanics comes from a largely Devout Catholic background. Just about every hispanic family I know personally has a kindly old grandmother kicking around who is devoutly Catholic and highly respected by the other family members.

    So you have to ask yourself...
    1. How do you think most hispanics feel about gay marriage?
    2. How do you think most hispanics feel about abortion?
    3. How do you think most hispanics feel about highly secular groups that openly mock devout religious beliefs(IE make fun of grandma)?

    Now that I think about it, I need to talk to my friends about gun control. I am honestly not sure how they feel about that issue. It has never come up.

    Another one I have no idea about is Hillary. Hispanic culture is still very male dominated, I am not sure how they would react to a woman running for president.

    To win over Hispanics, all Republicans need to do is focus on the common ground.

    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/04/v-politics-values-and-religion/

    Survey from two years ago on Hispanic political views.

    1. Hispanics, and Catholics in general, have a majority (~59%) in favor of gay marriage. In fact, the only group in the US that views gay marriage extremely negatively are evangelicals.
    2. First generation Hispanic immigrants are heavily against legal abortion, while later generations are in favor.

    So no, Republicans aren't going to win over Hispanics by trying to convince them to fight the white evangelical culture war.

    Not only that, but the "culture war" isn't going to get them to ignore the policies and positions screwing them over on a day to day basis. No amount of "they're attacking your belief!" will make the fact that the right wing has consistently pushed to make them into second class citizens go away. (Again, case in point: the black community, which trends towards social conservatism and religious beliefs - and is pretty firmly on the left.

    Alinius133 wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The thing about Hispanic/central/south American (which we really shouldn't be able to lump together) voters is that their really isn't any particular vector for republicans to interact with them; their perception of Christianity is different, their income level is lower, they're more communal... about the only way that republicans could appeal to them is by campaigning for less government interference in their lives but that would mean having to overhaul immigration in a way that would make folks like Joe Arpaio spontaneously combust with rage.

    A couple of points.
    "their perception of Christianity is different" - It seems like the rift between Catholics and Evangelicals is going away. You can thank militant Atheism for this. Nothing like an external threat to bring people together.

    "they're more communal" - This one can cut both ways. Once you earn the right to be a part of their community, you are basically considered family regardless of skin color or political affiliation.

    Except that the Dominionists are mainly breaking bread with the conservative arm of the Catholic clergy. And they're uniting against, among other things, the liberation theology wing of the Holy See (which, it's worth pointing out, the current Pope is a member of), which tends to be predominant tradition among Latinos.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I think all the evidence you need for the split between conservative American Christianity and Latin American Christianity is the backlash against Pope Francis from conservative American churches.

    Calling the first Latin American Pope Marxist and Communist is sure to win tons of Catholic Hispanic votes.

    Jephery on
    }
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    A big part of the divide is the GOP's policies are actively hostile towards urban areas where the majority of minorities live.

    Gaddez
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Alinius133 wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The thing about Hispanic/central/south American (which we really shouldn't be able to lump together) voters is that their really isn't any particular vector for republicans to interact with them; their perception of Christianity is different, their income level is lower, they're more communal... about the only way that republicans could appeal to them is by campaigning for less government interference in their lives but that would mean having to overhaul immigration in a way that would make folks like Joe Arpaio spontaneously combust with rage.

    A couple of points.
    "their perception of Christianity is different" - It seems like the rift between Catholics and Evangelicals is going away. You can thank militant Atheism for this. Nothing like an external threat to bring people together.

    "they're more communal" - This one can cut both ways. Once you earn the right to be a part of their community, you are basically considered family regardless of skin color or political affiliation.

    Catholic views as policy and catholic views as practiced are so laughably far apart it's really hard to talk about 'Catholics'. As a group they rend to vote for the party of abortions. Most of them use birth control, etc.

    That said of the younger generations of Catholics I know, they are definitely more like baptists in their bible trumpery, but that might just be because it's easy to be a true believe in your 20s. But I also think the US Catholic church has started to adopt the same language as the evangelicals, in a very calculated effort to stop shedding younger members.

    Mass attendance is down to under 20%.
    1/3 of Catholics are essentially 'ethnically catholic' ala ethnic jews. They check that box on the forms but that's it. Maybe you get some Christmas/Easter action.
    In the last 2 decades the church grew roughly 15%, about 80% of that growth is from hispanics. But that 15% growth shifted the latino percentage of the church from 10 to over 30. So the equivalence of 'natural population growth' is actually negative. 2 Catholic parents today doesn't equate to 2+ Catholics a generation from now.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Catholics nationwide breakdown along basically the same issue lines as everyone else. There's the same support for same sex marriage, abortion, etc among Catholics as there is in the country as a whole. The idea that latinos being catholic puts them in line with the GOP is kind of silly. Boston is something like 47% Catholic, and the only place bluer that I've lived in is Philly.

    For most people, it comes down to whose pitch they like more. Democrats have a natural advantage in that pitch these days, because the other guys are basically saying "vote for us and we'll save you from the darkies". And while xenophobia is something of a deplorable American institution, it's not a great way to build your party in a country where a substantial portion of the population growth is in second and third generation immigrants.

    So people gravitate toward the party that's not treating them like an active threat to the health of the Republic, then figure out that policies like unemployment insurance, low cost medical access, free quality schooling and the like also benefit them and their families, and they stick around. It's how African Americans became Democrats and it's why latinos of widely disparate geographical origin are going the same way.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    In the South, the Catholic Church has had major issues with Hispanic Catholics being poached by evangelicals. The reason is that, even when the Catholic Churches conduct Spanish-language services, the cultures and traditions of the American churches are so different as to be alienating. The evangelicals take advantage of this by having services and faith communities that feel more like those in Latin America at the surface level, making people feel more at home despite the doctrinal differences.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Jephery wrote: »
    I think all the evidence you need for the split between conservative American Christianity and Latin American Christianity is the backlash against Pope Francis from conservative American churches.

    Calling the first Latin American Pope Marxist and Communist is sure to win tons of Catholic Hispanic votes.

    Here's an honest question: how much do say, Mexican or Central American descended people in the US identify with a second generation Italian person from Argentina?

    enlightenedbum on
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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Jephery wrote: »
    I think all the evidence you need for the split between conservative American Christianity and Latin American Christianity is the backlash against Pope Francis from conservative American churches.

    Calling the first Latin American Pope Marxist and Communist is sure to win tons of Catholic Hispanic votes.

    Here's an honest question: how much do say, Mexican or Central American descended people in the US identify with a second generation Italian immigrant from Argentina?

    I was wondering that myself. Latin America isn't monolithic. I kind of take for granted that most of Latin America would be happy someone from the area was chosen to be Pope, but how does that break down across each country?

    Jephery on
    }
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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I think all the evidence you need for the split between conservative American Christianity and Latin American Christianity is the backlash against Pope Francis from conservative American churches.

    Calling the first Latin American Pope Marxist and Communist is sure to win tons of Catholic Hispanic votes.

    Here's an honest question: how much do say, Mexican or Central American descended people in the US identify with a second generation Italian immigrant from Argentina?

    I was wondering that myself. Latin America isn't monolithic.

    Most reporting emphasizes that he is from Latin America. I think this is the first time I've actually read that he was the child of Italian immigrants. I wonder how widespread that knowledge actually is.

    I think we can get a sense, though, from a similar situation here. How much does black America identify with Obama, despite him being a first generation child of white and Kenyan parents? Quite a lot.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    The new guy is also a lot closer to the central/south american version of liberation theology than any of the previous popes. I would guess that being aligned theologically is pretty important to people who are actually devout in their faiths and not just paying it lip service.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I think all the evidence you need for the split between conservative American Christianity and Latin American Christianity is the backlash against Pope Francis from conservative American churches.

    Calling the first Latin American Pope Marxist and Communist is sure to win tons of Catholic Hispanic votes.

    Here's an honest question: how much do say, Mexican or Central American descended people in the US identify with a second generation Italian immigrant from Argentina?

    I was wondering that myself. Latin America isn't monolithic.

    Most reporting emphasizes that he is from Latin America. I think this is the first time I've actually read that he was the child of Italian immigrants. I wonder how widespread that knowledge actually is.

    I think we can get a sense, though, from a similar situation here. How much does black America identify with Obama, despite him being a first generation child of white and Kenyan parents? Quite a lot.

    Still has to face and overcome the pervasive racism of the US, which is where the identification comes from, I think. Dude signals black culture kind of frequently. It's certainly possible that they do quite a lot. But Mexico and Argentina (for example) are radically different places.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/168101/latin-americans-say-pope-francis-brings-hope-poor.aspx

    This poll seems to indicate Francis is popular everywhere in Latin America, the lowest popularity being in Central America, where its 50/50, with a clear majority in favor everywhere else.

    But the poll is "will he bring positive change to the church" and not "do you like him".

    Jephery on
    }
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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Also strictly speaking this thread is about political outreach to minorities not the vagaries of south American Catholicism.

    As a side note: I've used the word "Catholicism" more times today then I have in the past 7 years.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Alinius133 wrote: »
    3. How do you think most hispanics feel about highly secular groups that openly mock devout religious beliefs(IE make fun of grandma)?

    Your first two points have been addressed already, but I just wanted to point out that secular organizations that mock religious beliefs are uncommon outside the paranoid fever dreams of white evangelical Christians, and the few that exist are in no way considered representative or emblematic of the Democratic party.

    Andy Joe on
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  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    As I've gotten older my idea of politics as a thing about issues has shrunk. It seems like cultural identities and crass interest group politics carry a lot of the weight. All our elaborate reasoning and argument is mainly a conceit, or serves to signal affiliations like flashing a wordy gang sign.

    Subscribing to the view that Texas Republicans can appeal to Hispanics (whatever that category even is) based on issues presupposes that Texas Republicans are Republicans because of issues. No doubt the head is looking right, but I think that's generally because it's the direction the neck is pointing it.

    So I guess I remain confident, if that's the right word, that the political division within Texas isn't going to shift substantially.

    Capek on
    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
    Derrick
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    As a point of contrast, in some places the Roman Catholic community has been or was long the bedrock of the labour movement. Certainly in NZ or Australia, the Roman Catholics Irish immigrant community was incredibly important in the formation of the Labour parties ans early governments. The ethnic angle has declined a lot in recent years but is still non trivial. In some cases the immigrant Polynesian communities which are often Methodist have filled a similar role.Mobilised working class types organised around church and workplace.

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  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Jephery wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I think all the evidence you need for the split between conservative American Christianity and Latin American Christianity is the backlash against Pope Francis from conservative American churches.

    Calling the first Latin American Pope Marxist and Communist is sure to win tons of Catholic Hispanic votes.

    Here's an honest question: how much do say, Mexican or Central American descended people in the US identify with a second generation Italian immigrant from Argentina?

    I was wondering that myself. Latin America isn't monolithic. I kind of take for granted that most of Latin America would be happy someone from the area was chosen to be Pope, but how does that break down across each country?

    The southern cone is actually overwhelmingly populated by the descendants of European immigrants.

    Capek on
    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    As I've gotten older my idea of politics as a thing about issues has shrunk. It seems like cultural identities and crass interest group politics carry a lot of the weight. All our elaborate reasoning and argument is mainly a conceit, or serves to signal affiliations like flashing a wordy gang sign.

    Subscribing to the view that Texas Republicans can appeal to Hispanics (whatever that category even is) based on issues presupposes that Texas Republicans are Republicans because of issues. No doubt the head is looking right, but I think that's generally because it's the direction the neck is pointing it.

    So I guess I remain confident, if that's the right word, that the political division within Texas isn't going to shift substantially.

    Yes, the issues we want resolved politically are heavily influenced by other cultural aspects. That's because culture shapes how we have to approach the world. What I find amazing is the attitude that this somehow delegitimizes the positions held.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    As I've gotten older my idea of politics as a thing about issues has shrunk. It seems like cultural identities and crass interest group politics carry a lot of the weight. All our elaborate reasoning and argument is mainly a conceit, or serves to signal affiliations like flashing a wordy gang sign.

    Subscribing to the view that Texas Republicans can appeal to Hispanics (whatever that category even is) based on issues presupposes that Texas Republicans are Republicans because of issues. No doubt the head is looking right, but I think that's generally because it's the direction the neck is pointing it.

    So I guess I remain confident, if that's the right word, that the political division within Texas isn't going to shift substantially.

    Yes, the issues we want resolved politically are heavily influenced by other cultural aspects. That's because culture shapes how we have to approach the world. What I find amazing is the attitude that this somehow delegitimizes the positions held.

    I guess you'd have to unfold your amazement for me a little before we were on the same page.

    "The issues we want resolved" seems like kind of an interesting way to phrase the the mix of identity, interest and happenstance that craft that precious cultural artifact - the "issue."

    Is your idea that the issues are there like an array math problems and it's our worldview-emerging-through-culture that makes us select one rather than another?

    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    You know, I've been meaning to bring some of the research behind this together and think it through systematically for a few years. Maybe I'll do that at some point in the next couple months and we can discuss it more then. I think doing this now is going to be a less fruitful tangent to the main point of this thread.

    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "Militant atheism" is not a thing in any meaningful sense. Atheists make up a few percent of the country at most. The number of them who give enough of a shit to be "militant" is small.

    Militant atheism is an imaginary bugaboo conjured by a subset of evangelicals so they would have something to feel persecuted by.

    Eh, there aren't militant athiests, but when asshole and athiesm combines, you get very angry people (usually men) who think that any sort of religious adherence is pathological.

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Alinius133
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    "Militant atheism" is not a thing in any meaningful sense. Atheists make up a few percent of the country at most. The number of them who give enough of a shit to be "militant" is small.

    Militant atheism is an imaginary bugaboo conjured by a subset of evangelicals so they would have something to feel persecuted by.

    Eh, there aren't militant athiests, but when asshole and athiesm combines, you get very angry people (usually men) who think that any sort of religious adherence is pathological.

    Well, my point is that if you were to hold a tug-o-war between all the asshole atheists and all the asshole theists, it's pretty clear which group's going in the mud.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Capek wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    As I've gotten older my idea of politics as a thing about issues has shrunk. It seems like cultural identities and crass interest group politics carry a lot of the weight. All our elaborate reasoning and argument is mainly a conceit, or serves to signal affiliations like flashing a wordy gang sign.

    Subscribing to the view that Texas Republicans can appeal to Hispanics (whatever that category even is) based on issues presupposes that Texas Republicans are Republicans because of issues. No doubt the head is looking right, but I think that's generally because it's the direction the neck is pointing it.

    So I guess I remain confident, if that's the right word, that the political division within Texas isn't going to shift substantially.

    Yes, the issues we want resolved politically are heavily influenced by other cultural aspects. That's because culture shapes how we have to approach the world. What I find amazing is the attitude that this somehow delegitimizes the positions held.

    I guess you'd have to unfold your amazement for me a little before we were on the same page.

    "The issues we want resolved" seems like kind of an interesting way to phrase the the mix of identity, interest and happenstance that craft that precious cultural artifact - the "issue."

    Is your idea that the issues are there like an array math problems and it's our worldview-emerging-through-culture that makes us select one rather than another?

    I think the important thing to consider is that the average fellow who asserts that he's come to his informed political stance through lots of soul-searching and critical analysis is greatly mistaken. Because he's typically come to his informed political stance through a combination of cultural osmosis, and just taking for granted that his preferred talking heads have done their homework. And this applies to both sides of the aisle.

    Which is why arguing politics with someone, with a goal of actually changing their mind, is generally futile. You can't use reason and logic to combat a point of view that was not born of reason or logic.

    Speaking to what Hedgie wrote, I don't know if this delegitimizes the issues, per se. I do think it hamstrings the link between position and philosophy, though. There isn't anything impressive about happening to stumble across a "correct" policy position based on the environment you happened to grow up in, any more than someone correctly predicted the outcome of a series of sports games through a series of lucky coin flips.

    And this implies two things: First, you can't praise someone too strongly for acquiring the same enlightened stance as everyone they've been surrounded with for decades. Second, you can't condemn someone too strongly for acquiring the same unenlightened stance as everyone they've been surrounded with for decades.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    As I've gotten older my idea of politics as a thing about issues has shrunk. It seems like cultural identities and crass interest group politics carry a lot of the weight. All our elaborate reasoning and argument is mainly a conceit, or serves to signal affiliations like flashing a wordy gang sign.

    Subscribing to the view that Texas Republicans can appeal to Hispanics (whatever that category even is) based on issues presupposes that Texas Republicans are Republicans because of issues. No doubt the head is looking right, but I think that's generally because it's the direction the neck is pointing it.

    So I guess I remain confident, if that's the right word, that the political division within Texas isn't going to shift substantially.

    Yes, the issues we want resolved politically are heavily influenced by other cultural aspects. That's because culture shapes how we have to approach the world. What I find amazing is the attitude that this somehow delegitimizes the positions held.

    I guess you'd have to unfold your amazement for me a little before we were on the same page.

    "The issues we want resolved" seems like kind of an interesting way to phrase the the mix of identity, interest and happenstance that craft that precious cultural artifact - the "issue."

    Is your idea that the issues are there like an array math problems and it's our worldview-emerging-through-culture that makes us select one rather than another?

    It's more that I find the term "identity politics" to be exceptionally weasely. Most of the time, it's used to delegitimize minorities and the underclass from organizing and pushing for their common interests, by undercutting the basis of their coalition. People choose which positions they hold based on their worldview, and that is in turn informed by culture and the sorting it provides in many ways. That doesn't make those positions any less legitimate.

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    Derrick
  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Yeah, stealthy racism was totally my angle.

    Homerun AH.

    Capek on
    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    As I've gotten older my idea of politics as a thing about issues has shrunk. It seems like cultural identities and crass interest group politics carry a lot of the weight. All our elaborate reasoning and argument is mainly a conceit, or serves to signal affiliations like flashing a wordy gang sign.

    Subscribing to the view that Texas Republicans can appeal to Hispanics (whatever that category even is) based on issues presupposes that Texas Republicans are Republicans because of issues. No doubt the head is looking right, but I think that's generally because it's the direction the neck is pointing it.

    So I guess I remain confident, if that's the right word, that the political division within Texas isn't going to shift substantially.

    Yes, the issues we want resolved politically are heavily influenced by other cultural aspects. That's because culture shapes how we have to approach the world. What I find amazing is the attitude that this somehow delegitimizes the positions held.

    I guess you'd have to unfold your amazement for me a little before we were on the same page.

    "The issues we want resolved" seems like kind of an interesting way to phrase the the mix of identity, interest and happenstance that craft that precious cultural artifact - the "issue."

    Is your idea that the issues are there like an array math problems and it's our worldview-emerging-through-culture that makes us select one rather than another?

    I think the important thing to consider is that the average fellow who asserts that he's come to his informed political stance through lots of soul-searching and critical analysis is greatly mistaken. Because he's typically come to his informed political stance through a combination of cultural osmosis, and just taking for granted that his preferred talking heads have done their homework. And this applies to both sides of the aisle.

    Which is why arguing politics with someone, with a goal of actually changing their mind, is generally futile. You can't use reason and logic to combat a point of view that was not born of reason or logic.

    Speaking to what Hedgie wrote, I don't know if this delegitimizes the issues, per se. I do think it hamstrings the link between position and philosophy, though. There isn't anything impressive about happening to stumble across a "correct" policy position based on the environment you happened to grow up in, any more than someone correctly predicted the outcome of a series of sports games through a series of lucky coin flips.

    And this implies two things: First, you can't praise someone too strongly for acquiring the same enlightened stance as everyone they've been surrounded with for decades. Second, you can't condemn someone too strongly for acquiring the same unenlightened stance as everyone they've been surrounded with for decades.

    I don't think that equating political positions based on cultural absorption with a coin flip is fair, though - it's not something random, but follows from principles. For example, one of the major positions in the black community is reform of the legal system - which comes from (as we see all too often) the way the legal system becomes a force for oppression for them. The vast majority of what gets called "identity politics" is minority groups standing up for themselves by seeking political solutions for the poor treatment they receive.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    Yeah, stealthy racism was totally my angle.

    Homerun AH.

    Then perhaps you should be careful with the terms you choose to use. If you want to use a phrase that has baggage attached, go ahead - but you don't get to complain when it gets pointed out.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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