Well if you dislike most games then maybe you'd find the time to finally start working on your degree
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
You know you don't have to be obtuse to defend something you enjoy but whatever. Don't have interest in this argument anyway.
However, I will say i did really have a problem with Paz and how she was treated.
And i think when you use rape as a narrative tool it has to be done respectful or else its just exploitation.
And if the full game is like that i could see myself being fairly disgusted by it.
GZ spoilers
I thought that whole thing was really well done. The way Skullface 'rewards' Chico by forcing him to rape Paz was holy shit awful. The game didn't present it as anything other than a terrible event tho.
Ground Zeroes was a horrible and disturbing look at Guantanamo Bay and places like it. It's meant to be horrifying and upsetting, and also show that Skullface is an irredeemable monster.
Ground Zeroes was a horrible and disturbing look at Guantanamo Bay and places like it. It's meant to be horrifying and upsetting, and also show that Skullface is an irredeemable monster.
GZ spoilers:
That's the issue a lot of people have, using rape of the sole female character just to provide characterization to one male character and motivation for another, and then killing of that female character (with a vagina bomb of all things) and thus preventing any real serious treatment of what happened to the character.
I hate Quiets design, but I'd rather find out what the "real, serious reason" is that Kojima has been spouting all this time than further baseless speculation at this point.
Honestly I'd rather not because its probably going to be dumb as hell.
i can't be the only person that thinks she is dressed like that because she needs her skin to absorb sunlight to allow her to do her super powers, right? some sort of plant/hybrid person.
I hate Quiets design, but I'd rather find out what the "real, serious reason" is that Kojima has been spouting all this time than further baseless speculation at this point.
Honestly I'd rather not because its probably going to be dumb as hell.
i can't be the only person that thinks she is dressed like that because she needs her skin to absorb sunlight to allow her to do her super powers, right? some sort of plant/hybrid person.
Might explain why she can't even be bothered to get a properly sized top.
Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
edited March 2015
GZ spoilers
'sole' female character out of the cast of four people the plan isn't to rescue her, it's to find out what she disclosed about Mother Base and ZEKE and then kill her. Her death isn't some big motivating force to Big Boss, it's not meant to evoke sympathy or anything along the lines of the usual vidya tropes. She was a spy turned weapon/tool, like just about every other MGS character male or female.
Chico suffers every bit as badly as Paz. Is that treatment more or less problematic?
Dark Raven X on
Oh brilliant
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2015
Ground Zeroes courtesy spoilers
I was pretty irked by the treatment of Paz in Ground Zeroes. And then I read the CIA torture report released last fall and I stopped being irked by that and started being enraged by the knowledge that people under the employment of and at the behest of my country's government did that and worse to actual real people for decades.
Each MGS story, for all its fantastical elements, has at least one Drum of Serious Social Relevance that Kojima wants to beat. Nuclear warfare, nature vs nurture, countries abandoning their soldiers, the military industrial complex and war profiteering, Mutually Assured Destruction, etc. Ground Zeroes' drum is torture and atrocity and how complicit America has been and sadly continues to be while the public inexplicably condones it.
In the end, Ground Zeroes' treatment of Paz is horrible, artless, repugnant and, saddest of all, made completely relevant and validated by Historically-Accurate Real Atrocities Committed By Actual American Citizens.
I think Kojima made metal gear as a love letter to American spy thriller culture, and then that slowly morphed into a hate letter
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Please, by all means, keep arguing about this and spoiling things. When I mentioned I didn't play PW yet and want to play GZ, what I meant to say was "start talking about things I would learn on my own through playing said games."
Fawst on
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
The Metal Gear games have steadily been becoming more and more flagrant over the years with how they sexually objectify some of their female characters. I've wondered if this is Kojima making a point about culture, if this is just how they think gamers want it, or both.
Naw. Kojima had always been this way. You're probably just older and more educated and as such more aware.
Yeah, I almost think it has gotten more obvious over the years, but then I remember playing through Policenauts. Having dialogue options to grope random women you talk with in the game is... odd. Also, the most uncomfortable Kojima has made me with any of his games. I love Kojima, but he has his, uh, quirks, I guess I'll say.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
speaking as someone who hasn't played it and didnt intend to play it until the rest of the game came out
thanks man
thanks
it was just really classy, the way you threw down heavy spoilers like that
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
@Morninglord I am so...so sorry for spoiling that.
I sometimes just post without thinking.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2015
it was both of you
i actually missed your post, ironically enough
this is why i asked, waaaaay back, at gz release
that everyone be really careful with spoiler tags until tpp came out
and people were like
nah man don't be silly it wont be a problem
sigh
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I find that even when people are careful about this, I always click spoiler tags without thinking and bam
That's why I make the first paragraph in a spoiler super vague
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I was pretty irked by the treatment of Paz in Ground Zeroes. And then I read the CIA torture report released last fall and I stopped being irked by that and started being enraged by the knowledge that people under the employment of and at the behest of my country's government did that and worse to actual real people for decades.
Each MGS story, for all its fantastical elements, has at least one Drum of Serious Social Relevance that Kojima wants to beat. Nuclear warfare, nature vs nurture, countries abandoning their soldiers, the military industrial complex and war profiteering, Mutually Assured Destruction, etc. Ground Zeroes' drum is torture and atrocity and how complicit America has been and sadly continues to be while the public inexplicably condones it.
In the end, Ground Zeroes' treatment of Paz is horrible, artless, repugnant and, saddest of all, made completely relevant and validated by Historically-Accurate Real Atrocities Committed By Actual American Citizens.
I can get on board with him wanting to tackle serious issues, and yet
was Kojima thinking "And now for something light-hearted and fun," or "This is going to be awesome, guys, seriously," when he created a character named Skullface whose only characteristic is that he has a skull for a face?* If the former, it misses the mark, like if Pennywise the clown was wearing googly eyes. If the latter, he's taking a page from the Pee-Chee Notebook school of writing, but more like a third-grader's. As eyerollingly ridiculous names go, that ranks up with "Hot Coldman." My point being that I love the gameplay and that he's making statements about the overarching themes, but when it comes down to details the writing has always been pretty ridiculous and it tends to buck my enjoyment off the MGS rodeo bull.
*And one line of throwaway dialogue that mentions he has a cowboy aesthetic, which is redundant because we've already had a wannabe cowboy running around since the very first game! Unless... Nah.
GNU Terry Pratchett
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
Spoilered until images are unborked.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I was pretty irked by the treatment of Paz in Ground Zeroes. And then I read the CIA torture report released last fall and I stopped being irked by that and started being enraged by the knowledge that people under the employment of and at the behest of my country's government did that and worse to actual real people for decades.
Each MGS story, for all its fantastical elements, has at least one Drum of Serious Social Relevance that Kojima wants to beat. Nuclear warfare, nature vs nurture, countries abandoning their soldiers, the military industrial complex and war profiteering, Mutually Assured Destruction, etc. Ground Zeroes' drum is torture and atrocity and how complicit America has been and sadly continues to be while the public inexplicably condones it.
In the end, Ground Zeroes' treatment of Paz is horrible, artless, repugnant and, saddest of all, made completely relevant and validated by Historically-Accurate Real Atrocities Committed By Actual American Citizens.
I can get on board with him wanting to tackle serious issues, and yet
was Kojima thinking "And now for something light-hearted and fun," or "This is going to be awesome, guys, seriously," when he created a character named Skullface whose only characteristic is that he has a skull for a face?* If the former, it misses the mark, like if Pennywise the clown was wearing googly eyes. If the latter, he's taking a page from the Pee-Chee Notebook school of writing, but more like a third-grader's. As eyerollingly ridiculous names go, that ranks up with "Hot Coldman." My point being that I love the gameplay and that he's making statements about the overarching themes, but when it comes down to details the writing has always been pretty ridiculous and it tends to buck my enjoyment off the MGS rodeo bull.
*And one line of throwaway dialogue that mentions he has a cowboy aesthetic, which is redundant because we've already had a wannabe cowboy running around since the very first game! Unless... Nah.
Skullface is Ocelot and Ocelot is Skullface... confirmed..?
Also, the cowboy theme probably explains things. I don't think they ever show it in the actual game, but Skullface's weapon is a Mare's Leg or some cut-down lever-action rifle or something
I find that even when people are careful about this, I always click spoiler tags without thinking and bam
That's why I make the first paragraph in a spoiler super vague
for extremely serious spoilers i used to tag them with SUPER SERIOUS SPOILER ALERT and then nest them with
WHY ARE YOU CLICKING THIS? GO AWAY!
in the first spoiler
have they fixed nested spoilers in vanilla?
no
yes
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Or maybe Kojima just has a boner for cowboy themed characters.
Dude's a real hardcore westaboo.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2015
he's kinda a real hardcore everything a boo
there's cultural stuff from all over the world in metal gear, all mixed into the pot with a big spoon
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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BRIAN BLESSEDMaybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHHRegistered Userregular
I still remember one of the Kojipro livecasts which was going to be a "SUPER IMPORTANT METAL GEAR ANNOUNCEMENT" and then about 45 minutes of it was a show talking about his favourite films and a documentary about H.R Giger
I still remember one of the Kojipro livecasts which was going to be a "SUPER IMPORTANT METAL GEAR ANNOUNCEMENT" and then about 45 minutes of it was a show talking about his favourite films and a documentary about H.R Giger
Twitch stream went apeshit
oh man i gotta find this, sounds awesome. sounds like it was wasted on twitch streamers though.
I was pretty irked by the treatment of Paz in Ground Zeroes. And then I read the CIA torture report released last fall and I stopped being irked by that and started being enraged by the knowledge that people under the employment of and at the behest of my country's government did that and worse to actual real people for decades.
Each MGS story, for all its fantastical elements, has at least one Drum of Serious Social Relevance that Kojima wants to beat. Nuclear warfare, nature vs nurture, countries abandoning their soldiers, the military industrial complex and war profiteering, Mutually Assured Destruction, etc. Ground Zeroes' drum is torture and atrocity and how complicit America has been and sadly continues to be while the public inexplicably condones it.
In the end, Ground Zeroes' treatment of Paz is horrible, artless, repugnant and, saddest of all, made completely relevant and validated by Historically-Accurate Real Atrocities Committed By Actual American Citizens.
Kojima has never had a problem tackling the issue of the day, it's how he likes to build his stories.
About Paz though that I find just a tad hypocritical.
People not only seem to be forgetting that Paz herself was a monster who tried to massacre everyone on Mother Base, but that Chico was forced to have sex with Paz at gunpoint, and I believe he was a minor, as well as in general being a far more legitimately "innocent" character than Paz.
No one is saying what Paz endured was anything less than horrific and evil, however, she ended up in that position largely due to her own malice. Where as Chico did a dumb thing to try to save a girl he had a crush on, and ended up with his ankles stapled and just as traumatized and abused.
So I fundamentally reject the, "This is Kojima ganging up on women" argument in THIS instance.
manwiththemachinegun on
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
IIRC, Chico is 12 during Peace Walker and Ground Zeroes. So let that sink in for a bit.
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited March 2015
Hmm yeah no
I'm not going to find the treatment of a character any less shit because she was no angel.
Also that sounds really fucked.
I should feel more sorry for Chico because he was forced to rape her. All while saying i should have less empathy for her because she was a bad person.
The fact that you say Chio was 'forced to rape' instead of Chico and Pax are mutually raped at gunpoint is kinda fucked up in my mind and shows a gender bias, but it might be unintended.
I still remember one of the Kojipro livecasts which was going to be a "SUPER IMPORTANT METAL GEAR ANNOUNCEMENT" and then about 45 minutes of it was a show talking about his favourite films and a documentary about H.R Giger
Twitch stream went apeshit
oh man i gotta find this, sounds awesome. sounds like it was wasted on twitch streamers though.
If my memory isn't mixing things up, it was the announcement with the easy-mode Chicken Hat, so it was basically Trolljima Kaioken x10 since the important announcement itself wasn't much more than a wet fart
Feel about it however you want to, the point you don't seem to be acknowledging is:
We've had 5 pages or so of gender biased discussion about Paz, while the fact that Chicos a minor, and actually a much nicer person than her, has been totally overlooked because apparently he's a guy.
So yes, he had it as bad if not worse. You can't have a discussion about bias while over looking that. In this case, I don't agree it is. Skullface is a monster. Its not Kojima ganging up on women in this case.
The fact that you say Chio was 'forced to rape' instead of Chico and Pax are mutually raped at gunpoint is kinda fucked up in my mind and shows a gender bias, but it might be unintended.
That word choice and subsequent appearance of gender bias might be a result of how the scene plays out. But yeah, both of them are being abused, for sure.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
speaking as someone who hasn't played it and didnt intend to play it until the rest of the game came out
thanks man
thanks
it was just really classy, the way you threw down heavy spoilers like that
Sorry! We don't usually spoiler mark anything in this thread unless its Phantom Pain related. Just kinda assumed everyone has played GZ at this point. And in my defence I was replying to like 2 pages of unmarked discussion, not sure why you singled mine out
Oh brilliant
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
The fact that you say Chio was 'forced to rape' instead of Chico and Pax are mutually raped at gunpoint is kinda fucked up in my mind and shows a gender bias, but it might be unintended.
Don't play semantics games with me. Also...if you were so worried about phrasing...
I think you would take more offense at "forced to have sex with". I specifically said "forced to rape" because it implies mutual victimization and it a far more accurate phrasing of what happened.
Feel about it however you want to, the point you don't seem to be acknowledging is:
We've had 5 pages or so of gender biased discussion about Paz, while the fact that Chicos a minor, and actually a much nicer person than her, has been totally overlooked because apparently he's a guy.
So yes, he had it as bad if not worse. You can't have a discussion about bias while over looking that. In this case, I don't agree it is. Skullface is a monster. Its not Kojima ganging up on women in this case.
No...no no.
You're missing the point of what I'm saying entirely.
The reason I have a problem with what you said is because you're playing victim olympics.
Trying to create a contest over who was the bigger victim and who we get to feel sympathy for is such a common and reductive tactic that I don't even feel the need entertain it.
Yes, what happened to them is both bad. Which one is worst...I don't give a fuck quite honestly.
That doesn't mean we get to turn our brains off.
Frankly, I don't have any assumptions about Kojima, outside of him being a bit of a perv. That is not why I have these kinds of conversations.
I have these conversations because these are things I feel I, and other people, need to think about.
Also, just so you do know. Forcing a little boy to rape or have sex is seeped in gender politics. Its about having them assert their manhood through domination. Basically, showing they are a "man". Its just like when fathers used to take their sons to brothels to lose their virginity.
And you see. The sad fact of the matter is bringing up Chico is an interesting point. But throwing him out there as some kind of checkmate is complete bullshit.
There was a joint statement from Kojima and Konami stating he's committed to staying through the development of Phantom Pain, but that's it. No news on Silent Hill.
Posts
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
GZ spoilers
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
GZ spoilers:
That's the issue a lot of people have, using rape of the sole female character just to provide characterization to one male character and motivation for another, and then killing of that female character (with a vagina bomb of all things) and thus preventing any real serious treatment of what happened to the character.
That makes it a very poor handling in my eyes.
i can't be the only person that thinks she is dressed like that because she needs her skin to absorb sunlight to allow her to do her super powers, right? some sort of plant/hybrid person.
Might explain why she can't even be bothered to get a properly sized top.
Chico suffers every bit as badly as Paz. Is that treatment more or less problematic?
Each MGS story, for all its fantastical elements, has at least one Drum of Serious Social Relevance that Kojima wants to beat. Nuclear warfare, nature vs nurture, countries abandoning their soldiers, the military industrial complex and war profiteering, Mutually Assured Destruction, etc. Ground Zeroes' drum is torture and atrocity and how complicit America has been and sadly continues to be while the public inexplicably condones it.
In the end, Ground Zeroes' treatment of Paz is horrible, artless, repugnant and, saddest of all, made completely relevant and validated by Historically-Accurate Real Atrocities Committed By Actual American Citizens.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Yeah, I almost think it has gotten more obvious over the years, but then I remember playing through Policenauts. Having dialogue options to grope random women you talk with in the game is... odd. Also, the most uncomfortable Kojima has made me with any of his games. I love Kojima, but he has his, uh, quirks, I guess I'll say.
speaking as someone who hasn't played it and didnt intend to play it until the rest of the game came out
thanks man
thanks
it was just really classy, the way you threw down heavy spoilers like that
I sometimes just post without thinking.
i actually missed your post, ironically enough
this is why i asked, waaaaay back, at gz release
that everyone be really careful with spoiler tags until tpp came out
and people were like
nah man don't be silly it wont be a problem
sigh
That's why I make the first paragraph in a spoiler super vague
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I can get on board with him wanting to tackle serious issues, and yet
*And one line of throwaway dialogue that mentions he has a cowboy aesthetic, which is redundant because we've already had a wannabe cowboy running around since the very first game! Unless... Nah.
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
for extremely serious spoilers i used to tag them with SUPER SERIOUS SPOILER ALERT and then nest them with
WHY ARE YOU CLICKING THIS? GO AWAY!
in the first spoiler
have they fixed nested spoilers in vanilla?
Skullface is Ocelot and Ocelot is Skullface... confirmed..?
Also, the cowboy theme probably explains things. I don't think they ever show it in the actual game, but Skullface's weapon is a Mare's Leg or some cut-down lever-action rifle or something
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Dude's a real hardcore westaboo.
there's cultural stuff from all over the world in metal gear, all mixed into the pot with a big spoon
Twitch stream went apeshit
"This is just like one of my Italian spaghetti westerns!"
(pees self)
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
oh man i gotta find this, sounds awesome. sounds like it was wasted on twitch streamers though.
Kojima has never had a problem tackling the issue of the day, it's how he likes to build his stories.
About Paz though that I find just a tad hypocritical.
No one is saying what Paz endured was anything less than horrific and evil, however, she ended up in that position largely due to her own malice. Where as Chico did a dumb thing to try to save a girl he had a crush on, and ended up with his ankles stapled and just as traumatized and abused.
So I fundamentally reject the, "This is Kojima ganging up on women" argument in THIS instance.
Paz
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Also that sounds really fucked.
I should feel more sorry for Chico because he was forced to rape her. All while saying i should have less empathy for her because she was a bad person.
Like what kind of shit is that seriously?
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
If my memory isn't mixing things up, it was the announcement with the easy-mode Chicken Hat, so it was basically Trolljima Kaioken x10 since the important announcement itself wasn't much more than a wet fart
Could have been something else though
So yes, he had it as bad if not worse. You can't have a discussion about bias while over looking that. In this case, I don't agree it is. Skullface is a monster. Its not Kojima ganging up on women in this case.
Sorry! We don't usually spoiler mark anything in this thread unless its Phantom Pain related. Just kinda assumed everyone has played GZ at this point. And in my defence I was replying to like 2 pages of unmarked discussion, not sure why you singled mine out
Don't play semantics games with me. Also...if you were so worried about phrasing...
No...no no.
You're missing the point of what I'm saying entirely.
Trying to create a contest over who was the bigger victim and who we get to feel sympathy for is such a common and reductive tactic that I don't even feel the need entertain it.
Yes, what happened to them is both bad. Which one is worst...I don't give a fuck quite honestly.
That doesn't mean we get to turn our brains off.
Frankly, I don't have any assumptions about Kojima, outside of him being a bit of a perv. That is not why I have these kinds of conversations.
I have these conversations because these are things I feel I, and other people, need to think about.
Also, just so you do know. Forcing a little boy to rape or have sex is seeped in gender politics. Its about having them assert their manhood through domination. Basically, showing they are a "man". Its just like when fathers used to take their sons to brothels to lose their virginity.
And you see. The sad fact of the matter is bringing up Chico is an interesting point. But throwing him out there as some kind of checkmate is complete bullshit.