Middle-manning

Happendy

So I've run into a problem with pin trading where neither I or the person I am trading with have been around really long. Neither of us really have any trade history, so it's hard to place trust onto the other person. In situations like these, what I have done in the past for other mail in trades of other valuables is request someone who is somewhat reputable to be a middleman, who sometimes charges a small convenience fee. After this initial trade, traders will have some sort of trade history.

Could this be something we can implement on a larger scale that oldies can volunteer for and newbies can utilize?

Also, does anyone living in Melbourne, or who is going from Melbourne to Seattle want to middleman for me? I'll give you a free fodder =3

Gerzzog

This is not a bad idea. Would there need to be a vetting process? I am always here to help fellow pinny peeps, but even I would want some process to go through before I offered my help to others.

dchoy

Happendy wrote: »

So I've run into a problem with pin trading where neither I or the person I am trading with have been around really long. Neither of us really have any trade history, so it's hard to place trust onto the other person. In situations like these, what I have done in the past for other mail in trades of other valuables is request someone who is somewhat reputable to be a middleman, who sometimes charges a small convenience fee. After this initial trade, traders will have some sort of trade history.

Could this be something we can implement on a larger scale that oldies can volunteer for and newbies can utilize?

Also, does anyone living in Melbourne, or who is going from Melbourne to Seattle want to middleman for me? I'll give you a free fodder =3

The thing is that we all started at 0 feedback. When I joined PinnyPals I was a n00b and people still trusted me and vice versa. There will always be bad eggs and it's somewhat hard to weed out those people. With that said, I have 6 trades under my belt and could definitely act as a middle man. The overall process doesn't seem very cost effective since there will be additional shipping fees involved. Both people have to send pins to a middle man and then that middle man has to ship out again. Time and money are all factors in the effectiveness in implementing such an idea. I think this would be a case by case situation IF you really wanted to use a middleman and IF you were really worried about a particular pin trade. I think in most cases people would trust the other. I am sending two of my Carl pins to Australia for some trades and I don't really have any reasonable assurance other than the other person's word; the same goes for them as well. I like to think that there are more good people in this world than bad.

Gerzzog

"I like to think that there are more good people in this world than bad."

I agree but if someone needed the added security the extra shipping might be worth it. Trust is something we should all have in the community, but I would have a hard time trading something like an AUS 2013 pin over the nets with someone I've never met or seen in the forums before. I would probably still do it because I am an optimist as well, but I could see someone being scared and wanting to protect their more rare pins.

smittythepirate

Have people had issues with trading others?

dmosinee

I'm most likely in the middle of getting stolen from via PinnyPals, although I'm still going to give the person some more time to do the right thing before I name and shame here on the forums. It sucks, but I've already learned a bunch of good lessons from the experience.

Lesson 1: Never make a trade just through the pinnypals site. Pinnypals is awesome for building a trade offer, but before anything ships out you need to move the deal onto a PM here on the forums. On here people have more to lose by screwing you -- their whole reputation in the community. For all you know a pinnypals person could be a throwaway account that they setup to scam with. They could easily register multiple accounts and trade with themselves to boost rep. These forums have a much better handle on that kind of activity. I got lucky, in that I was able to track down this persons PA forum name (totally different from their pinnypals name) from digging through other sites, otherwise I wouldn't even have any name/shame leverage.

Hand in hand with this, is the fact that here on the forums you have an active way to nag the person to communicate with you through PM/email. On pinnypals right now, the person can just not open the trade discussion and pretend you don't exist while you yell at the void.

Lesson 2: Before anything ships, both sides should post a pic in the PM of the pins being sent along with a piece of paper with both their names and the date. This will give you some peace of mind that the other person actually has what they say they do. No guarantees from this of course, but it's one more small assurance.

Lesson 3: If you're suspicious about anything; then both sides should post tracking/DC numbers in the PM before either of them actually hits the mailbox. When you print a label online (at least in the US, although I suspect it'd be true in Aus as well), you can indicate which day you're going to actually drop the package in the mail. If I was doing this trade over again, I would post the Tracking/DC number in the thread -- so they knew I went all the way through paying for the label -- and then not actually drop it in the mail till they did the same. Again it's not a guarantee, the other person could just pay a few bucks for a shipping label and then throw it in the trash after you ship your pin, but it's another assurance.

Anyone else have some good scam prevention tips?

Happendy

So the situation is that this person only created their PA forums account about 2 days ago. They're willing to trade a Limited Edition pin for one of my own Limited Edition pins, so I'm particularly interested in having a middleman in this case.

If it were anyone who was part of the community, I probably wouldn't have even hesitated. But 1 post seems a little fishy. The person seems perfectly nice, sane, and in general their character doesn't seem the kind to scam me out of a pin. But I want my tracks covered.
The thing is that even if this particular trade does go through well without any middleman(as I feel it will), the success of that trade would lead me to do more risky trades like that if the opportunity would arise again knowing me.

grgemonkey

As an aside, remember there are new traders just coming in from PAX Aus, they will all start at 0 and even have brand new forum accounts. The simplest thing you can do is say "Hi, sorry about this but since you have little history, I will need your pins to arrive first before I ship mine".

This is simple and effective, your reputation is just as liable as theirs, they have an opportunity to build up their history and credibility and hopefully no one gets scammed.

People who are genuine rarely have a problem with this condition, they're not scammers and have nothing to fear and any reasonable person should understand the situation without being personally offended.

If they have an issue with it, I find this is a pretty quick way to let the alarms bells start ringing.

However scammers are a fact of life, I've been scammed many times on a host of services to know that scammers rarely care if you find out and I have never in my life had my items returned.

If you have any suspicion with an account or are scammed on PinnyPals, please let me know immediately. The quicker I know about it, the quicker we can take action.

TheAggroCraig

I don't think I've ever traded with anyone who I didn't recognize on the forums.

I've met a lot of people from the forums in person too, so that definitely helps assure legitimacy. Has anyone on here even been scammed yet? I'm sure pins have gotten lost, but I don't recall hearing anybody complain/panic yet.

Happendy

grgemonkey wrote: »

As an aside, remember there are new traders just coming in from PAX Aus, they will all start at 0 and even have brand new forum accounts. The simplest thing you can do is say "Hi, sorry about this but since you have little history, I will need your pins to arrive first before I ship mine".

This is simple and effective, your reputation is just as liable as theirs, they have an opportunity to build up their history and credibility and hopefully no one gets scammed.

People who are genuine rarely have a problem with this condition, they're not scammers and have nothing to fear and any reasonable person should understand the situation without being personally offended.

If they have an issue with it, I find this is a pretty quick way to let the alarms bells start ringing.

However scammers are a fact of life, I've been scammed many times on a host of services to know that scammers rarely care if you find out and I have never in my life had my items returned.

If you have any suspicion with an account or are scammed on PinnyPals, please let me know immediately. The quicker I know about it, the quicker we can take action.

I'm actually talking to two people who are AUS newbies it seems. One of them is completely fine with me sending their end of the deal first. The other one is rather hesitant, but we both agreed that if we found someone in Melbourne/Seattle who would be willing to be a middleman, it would work out. I think that this method is a really good alternative fix to the problem I'm facing... As soon as we find someone l=

foehammer

i can be your middle man i am in melb pm me also i have references

fishfishmonkeyhat

And sweet pin body-armour!

Kurpav

I find it kind of funny that you're having a discussion about trading with somebody that doesn't have any history, and here I am throwing pins across the ocean to three different people with no history without even thinking twice about it.

I am not a rich man. One new pin represents an hour of work for me. So yes, it would hurt if one or all of them took my pins and ran, but I could certainly replace them.

I'm really not trying to say you shouldn't conduct the trade to your satisfaction, but I find that my mind gets weighed down with worry if I assume every single new person could be out to get me. It would be a waste of my time until proven otherwise.

Shadowscars22

I know it's not perhaps 100% reliable, but if they agree to go through a middleman, they most likely are trustworthy. Any scammer would have sprinted off at the mention of a middleman.

Hingo

@dmosinee‌ I agree with pretty much all your points. I was concerned when I first started trading with pinnypals and on the forums back when I was still new to this whole thing, and I was lucky enough to trade with @Ajaxon‌ who had a decent history on the forums and was quite active with pin trading. We exchanged pictures via email:

I stalked his forum account to make sure he wasn't a trouble-maker of sorts, then went ahead with the trade.

PedroAsani

Anyone I trade with should know by now to expect it to take a few days for me to even get the things in the mail, since I am always travelling. I wouldn't worry too much about anyone scamming you at this point, and since you have their address when you send them you know where they are.

Ajaxon

Hingo wrote: »

I stalked his forum account to make sure he wasn't a trouble-maker of sorts, then went ahead with the trade.

Just goes to show how little you know me

But in all seriousness, yeah, it does take a leap of faith. Sending a pic of the pin with the relevant date and handle surprisingly does a lot. Not only does it prove that you got the goods, but also that you are wanting to take the time to do it in the first place.

And the person who got me going on my first trade was @imsorad - so thanks to him for showing me the ways.

Geometric Cube

I get the mild suspicion that veteran Pin traders would have towards new people getting into trading. I actually started collecting back when they put the core sets to buy online and have just been buying the ones available in the PA shop. Never really ever thought to join the forum or to get into trading pins until I went to my first PAX just a few days ago. Thankfully though @Kurpav put his trust in me :biggrin: so I can now start to build my credibility for future trades. The steps listed by @dmosinee seem very reasonable as well.

evil santa

Something that concerns me for future pin trading is that my Pinny Pals account uses a different username to this PA account. Is it possible to change the Pinny account name for clarity's sake or do you think it will be fine?

PedroAsani

evil santa wrote: »

Something that concerns me for future pin trading is that my Pinny Pals account uses a different username to this PA account. Is it possible to change the Pinny account name for clarity's sake or do you think it will be fine?

Ask @grgemonkey‌ about that.

brettness37

I'm willing to middleman for anyone who wants me to. Would recommend @Kamelon‌ if someone needs a middleman in Australia.

grgemonkey

@evil santa‌ I can change usernames on request, I find people do prefer your account names match at least partially.

Kamelon

brettness37 wrote: »

I'm willing to middleman for anyone who wants me to. Would recommend @Kamelon‌ if someone needs a middleman in Australia.

Yep, I'd be happy to be an Aussie middleman. PM me if you need me. Oh, and I'm in Canberra, not Melbourne, if that matters.

If you need references, check my post history. I've met several pin pals in person, and I'll be on the PAX Aus 2014 pinny pals podcast.

Also can confirm @brettness37 is a good guy for this. He's stepped up for me on multiple occasions, and it's always been smooth sailing.

Hingo

My current paranoia is based around the lack of posting or any linkage between the Penny Arcade forum account and the PinnyPals account. For example, I would like to accept Jester's trade from PinnyPals, but the account was created 10 days ago there, and I can't find any posts here by "Jester". I like the concept of middle manning, but I also like it when people are at least pseudo-active here as well.

Evenstar

I can help you there, I just completed a trade with @jester44 and it went perfectly!

Hingo

Evenstar wrote: »

I can help you there, I just completed a trade with @jester44 and it went perfectly!

Thanks, it was that bloody "44" that was making me unable to find him!

Sammy.Sam

Yeah, I'm 'Sammy' on the pinnypals site. Whenever someone replies to my messages there, I always tell them what my handle is here. But, I should probably just change it already, since I understand the concern.

Happendy

I think something that really helps is when someone links their pinny pals account in their signature
[stares]

zerzhul

FYI, no name changes here, so if you're going to change, gotta do it on the other site.

Mozleron

I've made a few trades on the Pinny Pals site so far and have had no issues to date. Granted, they were not blockbuster trades with anything particularly rare, but I'm thinking i'll put some of the advice in this thread into practice in the future, particularly the bit about pictures of the items to be sent.

sirmrej

I've blindly trusted people, and have had nothing but awesome experiences so far. So while I think it's good to be aware, and internet research isn't that hard, I think this is a small enough community that we trust each other. I think if something went south, we would ALL know very quickly. Information travels quickly here.

For example, on the flip side, we kinda all know who has DLCs and even who recently got one through sheer luck.