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Cuba-American Relations. Obama Visits Cuba!

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    DiplominatorDiplominator Hardcore Porg Registered User regular
    A bunch of congresspeople are all atwitter about how much of an outrage this is, but is there much they can do to stop it? I don't know much about the legal basis for the embargo. Is there a legislative branch thing that would have to be repealed or is it an executive branch policy that can be changed or dismissed at the President's discretion.

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    The actual trade embargo would have to be an act of congress which hahaha yeah fucking right. But the diplomatic relations I believe is within the power of the executive. Though the pricks have already said they won't confirm an ambassador because its about policy and not just irrational hatred of the president.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    A bunch of congresspeople are all atwitter about how much of an outrage this is, but is there much they can do to stop it? I don't know much about the legal basis for the embargo. Is there a legislative branch thing that would have to be repealed or is it an executive branch policy that can be changed or dismissed at the President's discretion.

    The embargo is law and would need to be repealed by an Act of Congress, so that isn't going to change. Diplomatic recognition, taking someone off the State Sponsor of Terror list, &c. is all Executive Power stuff and can be changed with the stroke of a pen. Now, Ambassadors do require Senate approval and building an embassy does entail construction costs or rent at the very least, so Congress can be dicks about that. However, given that this is a huge rapprochement the appointment of an ambassador will actually get press coverage. So it'd be more like stalling a Cabinet level position than stalling the Surgeon General or something. Which might make a difference.

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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    ]
    All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
    That's pretty much you saying that. The rest of us have a more measured response.

    It still a big deal, but for political reasons. The Embargo has long since passed from wrong headed to embarrassing. Do you realize that this embargo is over 50 years old? Its older than President Obama and the majority of the American Public. Every person that enacted the original embargo on the US side are dead? From President Eisenhower and his entire cabinet. I think you would be hard pressed to find a congressman or Senator that actually voted for the measure.

    And for what? Lets be honest, the original intent was to get rid of Castro and restore Cuban Status quo ante bellum as a US colony in all but name. Instead we got 50 years of failure and Castro outliving 6 of the 11 presidents that controlled the embargo. With a decent chance he would outlive both Bush Snr and Jimmy Carter.

    Obama's deal put an end to an embarrassing failure.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    We looked like idiots? I mean the cuban embargo when I believe we are literally the only country still doing it is just petty childish bullshit.

    And Rand Paul backs the move to appeal to idiots in College who read one thing about Rand Paul.

    We kept the embargo going as long as we did just to prove we could embargo the fuck out of someone and be dicks about it till we got our way to other countries. It's the age old tactic of finding someone you know you can beat the dog shit out of and then flaying the ever loving hell out of them to scare the piss out of people you'd rather not tangle with. Cuba is a worthless little shit hole with no real power or value, so we could get away with making a public demonstration of our determination and power on them. There wasn't shit they could do about it and nobody gave a damn about them enough to pester us over it.

    Cuba was something we could point at when threatening embargos and sanctions against Iran to prove we'd do it. And also something we could point at to prove our determination when we caved to Best Korea's crazy demands.

    Eventually though we just looked like idiots, which is more of the reason the policy is changing than any sort of altruism or good will. It's counter productive now.

    I disagree with a lot of this post

    Wtf

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    As I see it:

    Trade wise, this is going to be rather large for Florida given how close Cuba is. Nationally though, I'm not sure this will be that big, when it comes to trade, but even so, it's still a positive if it's mostly limited to the Miami region of Florida. I'm sure there will be quite a bit of trade in Florida given the Cuban population.

    PR wise, I think this helps up, we look incredibly petty keeping the embargo up and it seems to be mostly a spite thing for a bunch of hold fuckers, that seem incapable of moving on and don't give a shit that they hurt unrelated people.

    Foreign policy wise, it maybe not be a biggest blunder or even in the top of the list, but the current embargo does hurt on foreign policy because it removes a tool from out soft power chest, it seems to isolate us from other countries in the region and that negative PR doesn't exactly help us either; especially, when we had no issue dealing with people worse than Cuba.

    Security wise, this is going to be a plus. We'll be more effective at counter narcotics and fighting human trafficking, in the Caribbean, if we're actually talking to every country that has to deal with such assholes in the region. Also that jackass Putin has added a new layer to this whole thing, a friendly Cuba is far less likely to let that fucker set up a base to cause us issues. As for terrorism, I'm not really sure how much this helps with fight that issue, I guess it helps some.

    Climate change wise, it means we have better access to areas we'd like to monitor to see how climate change is fucking us over and possibly finding ways to fight it more effectively (it was going to happen without human activity, but no where near as fast as it is now and it would be nice to slow it down, so that it's possible to react in a timely manner). On this note and even related to trade, Cuba may be situation in an ideal spot for wind farms at a scale that lets it be an energy exporter. Maybe even a good candidate for tidal generators (I haven't looked too much at the geography of their Oceans, I'm assuming if it's somewhat feasible to build a bridge between Cuba and Florida, ignoring Hurricane concerns, than wind and tidal turbines should be an option). Anyways fuck exploiting their fossil fuels (IMO fucking exploiting fossil fuels period, regardless of where they're located, when we can look into alternatives).

    I'd also argue domestically, that this is a positive on US politics. Sure thawing of Cuba-American relations won't usher in a golden age and most of the benefits will be fairly localized (like I don't see Cuba applying for statehood within US in the next several decades, after that who knows what public opinion will be, but I could be wrong), but it's absolutely dumb that such benefits are ignored to curry favor with a very loud, petty and self-centered minority. I also have to wonder how many resources and time are wasted justify the embargo that could be better spent elsewhere, if the embargo was allowed to die. Hell, maybe we could have had Gore as POTUS in 2000 instead of that shitty shrub, if people had just grown the fuck up in the 90s.

    As for what can be done now. The law allowing the embargo is going to stay up until at least January of 2017, since it looks like the GOP is going to double down on the stupidity. Yeah, some are in favor of ditching the embargo, but I doubt the leadership of the GOP will listen to any of them. I also see some idiotic democrats doubling down, so even if a repeal came up for a vote, I kind of doubt it will pass, then again we have two years before the next Congress sits, so things could change, but I'm leaning towards January 2017 being the earliest point, where it's likely that embargo goes. I think getting an Ambassador and an embassy there, are more likely, even though Congress can hold up those things. I suspect even some of the pro-embargo crowd would frown at holding up both of those and I doubt the public at large is going to be in favor of holding them up either. So I see the next Congress sucking it up and letting both the Ambassador and Embassy go forward. I believe everything else is in Obama's hands and he's made it pretty clear, that the GOP led Congress can kindly fuck off on this one.

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    PriestPriest Registered User regular
    I really wish these people saying that we are 'enabling a dictatorship' would shut up.

    Time and again, history has proven that exporting our culture & goods has done far more to inspire political change than our wars/embargos/dickwaving.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Priest wrote: »
    I really wish these people saying that we are 'enabling a dictatorship' would shut up.

    Time and again, history has proven that exporting our culture & goods has done far more to inspire political change than our wars/embargos/dickwaving.

    That and we already have a strong history of enabling dictatorships.

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    This is going to be huge for Florida's economy, not just Miami. Tampa has a larger, older Cuban population that is generally pro normalization and those trade barriers breaking down will be a massive boost for us.

    And we will remember who was supporting that and who stood in the way.

    Sorry, Rubester and Jebby, you just pissed away this end of the I4 corridor.

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    PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    This is going to be huge for Florida's economy, not just Miami. Tampa has a larger, older Cuban population that is generally pro normalization and those trade barriers breaking down will be a massive boost for us.

    And we will remember who was supporting that and who stood in the way.

    Sorry, Rubester and Jebby, you just pissed away this end of the I4 corridor.

    It'll be a big deal for the entire Southern U.S. If they reinstate the ferry or offer cheap puddle jumper flights/cruises, it basically opens the Southeast to easy foreign travel and medical tourism.

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    I'm curious as to what they could do if they pursued coastal energy production in both wind and tidal generation.

    For point of reference, Virginia has the potential to be an energy exporter, if we took advantage of coastal wind energy generation. Then there is non-coastal wind generation potential, not all of it utilized for various reasons, but that's still probably more TWh/year, than we produce now from other energy sources (three of which are nuclear power plants) and far more than what we actually need. It's just that the shitty fossil fuel industry and the BS Virginia Way of corruption, keeps the state from utilizing these resources.

    If they can come close to what VA can do in wind generation and can find a way to export that to other countries (not sure how feasible it would be to transfer energy generated by Cuba to say Florida). Then Cuba could be a major energy exporter in the region; especially, if they couple that with tidal generators. I mean, they're probably in better shape to pursue it politically than my state, since their government is less beholden to shitty fossil fuel interests. They already have gotten fucked by oil busts, aren't wild that they could get hit by another if Chavez goes and his successor cuts them off, the Raul Castro is more friendly towards alternative energy, I doubt they'll like our fossil fuel assholes barons and Cuba will get fucked pretty hard by global warming (well VA would get fucked too, problem is part of the state doesn't give a fuck what happens to our costs because they are fucking idiots and they get idiotic support from idiots in states further inland). So if given the opportunity, I could see Cuba go gang buster on building wind farms off it's cost; especially, if they could export the excess energy.

    It it does prove to be feasible for Cuba to export energy to the US and they start explore that potential. That might actually force some of the state government here to take wind energy seriously and stop coddling the fossil fuel companies.

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    BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    Chavez is dead man, Maduro is in charge in Venezuela

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    FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    Chavez is dead man, Maduro is in charge in Venezuela

    In fact, some people believe Cuba's willingness to go through with this is because Maduro is not having the best time filling Chavez's shoes and they don't want to go through the same crap they did when the USSR collapsed.

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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    For the swing state perspective let's also remeber something. The Map has changed, Dems don't need Florida anymore.

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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    If you are wondering what that oinking was overhead, blame Rand Paul supporting Obama's move.

    Well, of all the actions Obama took that I thought could drive a wedge into the Republican midless knee-jerk blanket opposition to every action Obama takes, I have to admit this is the last one I expected would be it.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Chavez is dead man, Maduro is in charge in Venezuela

    Literally, he died in 2013.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    It will be a big deal in Florida, fuck the rest of the country.
    For the swing state perspective let's also remeber something. The Map has changed, Dems don't need Florida anymore.

    Also, long term Florida will be a democratic state anyhow. We are moving more and more in that direction each year, only through ridiculous levels of gerrymandering has that been slowed.

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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    It will be a big deal in Florida, fuck the rest of the country.
    For the swing state perspective let's also remeber something. The Map has changed, Dems don't need Florida anymore.

    Also, long term Florida will be a democratic state anyhow. We are moving more and more in that direction each year, only through ridiculous levels of gerrymandering has that been slowed.

    Its more than one state that republicans control only through outright devaluation of democratic votes via gerrymandering.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    I realize it can be insidiously hard to prove or solve, but I wish courts would smack down gerrymandering harder.

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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    I realize it can be insidiously hard to prove or solve, but I wish courts would smack down gerrymandering harder.

    Its not hard to prove in states where 1 republican vote carries more power to elect than 5 or 6 democratic votes.

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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    So I learned about the Cuban Five today and something's bugging me. While it's clear they were committing espionage I didn't really see anything explaining the conspiracy to murder charges. The knowledge clearly resulted in people's deaths but was there anything proving they knew the plane would be shot down?

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    edited December 2014
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Chavez is dead man, Maduro is in charge in Venezuela

    Literally, he died in 2013.

    In my defense I haven't been paying that much attention to Venezuela lately and it doesn't help, that in my foray into Cuba's energy policy and potential, that also involved reading some older articles. ><

    Point still stands, Cuba wasn't pleased with the wreaking they took after the fall of the USSR (ironically, the shitty boycott might have kept Castro in power without have to make any concession in power and allowed him rule to survive the fall of the USSR). They are aren't pleased with the idea, that their economy could blow up if Venezuela cuts them off completely or by a significant margin. Not sure they had any luck with oil wells in the Gulf of Mexico, but even if they found one that wasn't empty, it'll be years until they can really start turning a profit and that assumes that the energy markets don't continue to move away from fossil fuels.
    For the swing state perspective let's also remeber something. The Map has changed, Dems don't need Florida anymore.

    This is probably the best point to make the move. I'm pretty sure we'll start reaping the benefits before the 2016 election and I only see public support increasing.

    Maybe AMFA can give us a better perspective, but I kind suspect that it would be a waste of time for Democrats to pursue a pro-embargo stance because it would be akin to running away from Obama in the 2014 midterms. The people that wouldn't vote for a democrat that didn't support the embargo, are probably people that are unlikely to vote democrat regardless. I mean if Rubio wins his re-election there in 2016, it's not going to because he supported the embargo. If he wins it's likely either:

    -Not enough of the democratic base showed up, and they aren't pro-embargo.
    -Governor "Looks like every creepy-ass Villain ever" Scott and his party found a way to fuck may out of the vote.
    -More old fart, pro-Republican boomers changed their voting residence to Florida.
    -Democrats pick an awful candidate to run against Rubio.
    -Maybe if Jeb Bush is on the ticket, that maybe helps Republicans in the state.
    -Some combination of the above

    In some ways looking at the presidential implications are interesting. Looking at what is being touted as the current Blue wall, Florida is really looking to be irrelevant. The GOP has to win it, in order to have a shot at winning the Presidency, where democrats don't need it (they'll contest to keep the GOP from having an easy time in a swing state and have less resources to push for a Democratically leaning state elsewhere). Swing state wise, the Democrats either need one or none, to win (one if VA is still a swing state, none if VA is locked in - BTW no one better take the current Blue wall as an excuse to not vote).

    If Jeb Bush is on the 2016 ticket, then Florida is either a lock for the GOP that year or it's still swing, which puts the GOP is in shit creek. If Jeb Bush can't be assured Florida and that could be possible, then that also means he's going to be having a hard time in other swing states that lean more to the left than Florida.

    There is also the issue that pleasing the old Cuban population that is still pro-embargo and some of their kids that take after them. Means that the GOP is further alienating many younger Cubans, their track record with younger voters in general, is shit. It also means further irritating Hispanic voters that are Cuban, another group where their track record is shit.

    Expect lots of bitching from the GOP because Obama did an excellent job of fucking them over. Not only did he show them that he can't still get stuff done. He pretty much forced them to have to stake out a position that is going to hurt their future electoral prospects. Plus, this is pretty much going to be something that will be very hard, if next to impossible to reverse.

    Mill on
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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Only old people and a small section of one city is pro embargo down here.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Only old people and a small section of one city is pro embargo down here.

    It's Florida, lots of old people there.

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Only old people and a small section of one city is pro embargo down here.

    It's Florida, lots of old people there.

    Old people are here, but they're not voting democrats in anyway and we went Obama both times.

    Dixiecrats are dying off, we want and need this boost.

    Thanks, Obama!

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    KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Actually, quite a few geezers vote Dem. Since half the population is transplanted libby New Yorkers, we get the north east lib vote. This is why Dade and Broward are so blue, compared to the rest of the state. Nobody moved to bum fuck Orlando until Disney got huge. Jacksonville is still red, Tampa has a pretty good mix, but it's still pretty hickish. Though now maybe we can stop having to listen to Cubans prattle on about shit that happened before most of them were born.

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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Just a reminder - as of tomorrow, travel by Americans to Cuba will be legal without prior authorization, so long as it falls under one of 12 categories.

    One one hand, tourism is not one of the 12. On the other hand, if you can't figure out how to get through the 747-sized loopholes in that list, you're just lazy.

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    PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Just a reminder - as of tomorrow, travel by Americans to Cuba will be legal without prior authorization, so long as it falls under one of 12 categories.

    One one hand, tourism is not one of the 12. On the other hand, if you can't figure out how to get through the 747-sized loopholes in that list, you're just lazy.

    Every resort will suddenly have a classroom and educational tours.

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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Just a reminder - as of tomorrow, travel by Americans to Cuba will be legal without prior authorization, so long as it falls under one of 12 categories.

    One one hand, tourism is not one of the 12. On the other hand, if you can't figure out how to get through the 747-sized loopholes in that list, you're just lazy.

    Every resort will suddenly have a classroom and educational tours.

    ...not seeing a downside here.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    "The perils of gambling: a hands on experience"

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    What is "supporting the Cuban people"

    Is touring Havana and buying some cigars that?

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    What is "supporting the Cuban people"

    Is touring Havana and buying some cigars that?

    Economic support? I... I think that loophole is big enough to sail an iceberg through.

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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    8. Support for the Cuban people

    What are those T-Shirts "I support <Cuban> Single Moms".

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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    My question is, does sitting in the sun on a beach and drinking so much that you'll think you've met God count under "religious activities"?

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    AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    My question is, does sitting in the sun on a beach and drinking so much that you'll think you've met God count under "religious activities"?

    As an Amateur Hemingway scholar... yes. :D

    He/Him | "A boat is always safest in the harbor, but that’s not why we build boats." | "If you run, you gain one. If you move forward, you gain two." - Suletta Mercury, G-Witch
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    My question is, does sitting in the sun on a beach and drinking so much that you'll think you've met God count under "religious activities"?

    As an Amateur Hemingway scholar... yes. :D

    New business plan: the "Papa Tour".

    Learn about Hemingway - by getting drunk on daiquiris where he did.

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    If I go to mass between bottles of rum and cigars does that count as a religious activity?

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    DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    just be sure to compliment some cubans you meet and you're probably golden

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    TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    edited January 2015
    3. Journalistic activity

    Time to start a travel blog...

    Tomanta on
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    TNTrooperTNTrooper Registered User regular
    If I give a bum 2 bucks does that as helping the Cuban people and humanitarian aid or do I have to give him a 5?

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