You know...it does weird me out how casually some of you talk about what is basically colonization.
But whatever.
I'd use my eyeroll emoticon but it seems to have rolled away.
Sorry.
Guess I shouldn't state that I don't think American influence is a default good.
Wooo...go us. We gonna fix those guys right up.
Your basis assumes that the Cuban people have no agency to determine if they want or don't want something. Just because ISPs can run cable from Florida doesn't mean magically everyone speaks English and watches Two and a Half Men. It's trade. Cuba will benefit from having essential technologies and products that they haven't had the opportunity to really invest in, and Florida will benefit (eventually) by renewed trade and immegration(and probably also emigration) between the two shores.
If anything, it's more likely that Florida will become more Cuban than Cuba will become more Americanized.
Well, for one my "basis" was commenting on some people saying this would be an opportune time for us to get on the ground floor of Cuban governance and influencing their culture.
I don't have a problem with trade itself. Never did.
To clarify from my posts I don't view it as a matter of opportunity but inevitability. America exports the shit out of its culture and very little can be done to prevent that, regardless of whether it is a good or a bad thing.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Florida and Cuba will benefit enormously from the cultural and economic exchange. The Tampa Tribune today talked about how USF scientists will be able to collaborate and study the coral reefs for some climate change stuff.
It'll be exciting and change both the peninsula and the island forever and for the better. Might actually be worth sticking around and seeing how it goes.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Cuba has been changing it's organizational structure over the last ten years anyhow. Raoul Castro has essentially created both term limits and age limits for his successor in 2018, the boom in Medical tourism has led to changing realities in how they run their communist system, and there have been a bunch of reforms to both military and prison systems for political rivals/dissidents that are looking pretty positive.
Also people can leave with their families through visas now. They're not cheap, but its no longer isolationist at all.
while with China we are more intertwined economically and have a healthier relationship with a China that is becoming more "capitalist" compared to decades ago.
Wait your argument is that comparing the normalization of economic relations with Cuba to China is incompatible because Us-China economic relations have already been normalized?
I mean sure i agree Vietnam is the more apt comparison but what the what?
No, because I'm not arguing against normalizing relations with Cuba.
I was merely pointing out that the Cuba-China comparison, while most of the population thus most of his viewers, don't care to know anything besides that they are both "Communist", wasn't a good comparison. And part of why the relationship is different also has to do with events I listed prior to the part of my post you quoted (essentially, that we have had a hate on for Cuba that didn't exist to such an extent with China, and the way we have handled Cuba in the past is far different than our handling of China.)
Oh man. Flashback: Any West Wing fans, who watched the Season 6 Episode, Ninety Miles Apart?
So much of that episode rings true right now.
The only reason this shit fest with Cuba has perpetuated is simple: Florida is a swing state, that both parties covet. The moment a politician starts talking about normalizing relations with Cuba, a small, but very vocal minority is going to raise hell and cost votes. No Florida politician will touch it. Go listen to every senator and house rep from Florida, of either party, and listen to them slam the desk on Cuba and how terrible they are. They have to kiss the ass of the Cuban American community.
Obama did what they couldn't. The real question I have is what will this do during the next election cycle to the Dems. The rest of America could care less about Cuba, but in a swing state like Florida? Time will tell.
Florida is not so anti cuban relations as it once was. And the person who made the change is the "lame duck" president who is about to go into a 2 year period of vetoing everything under the sun, plenty of plausible deniability.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Florida is not so anti cuban relations as it once was. And the person who made the change is the "lame duck" president who is about to go into a 2 year period of vetoing everything under the sun, plenty of plausible deniability.
This is also one of those moves that, once it matures, will be impossible to turn back. Right now, you have thousands of aging Cubans in Miami who really hate Castro. In a decade, you'll have millions of people all over Florida who rely on Cuban trade and tourism for their livelihood.
Florida is not so anti cuban relations as it once was. And the person who made the change is the "lame duck" president who is about to go into a 2 year period of vetoing everything under the sun, plenty of plausible deniability.
This is also one of those moves that, once it matures, will be impossible to turn back. Right now, you have thousands of aging Cubans in Miami who really hate Castro. In a decade, you'll have millions of people all over Florida who rely on Cuban trade and tourism for their livelihood.
Pretty much, its why the howling is so loud right now, the morons realize that once the people benefit from this change, they'll want more things to come down like the trade embargo.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Cuba has been changing it's organizational structure over the last ten years anyhow. Raoul Castro has essentially created both term limits and age limits for his successor in 2018, the boom in Medical tourism has led to changing realities in how they run their communist system, and there have been a bunch of reforms to both military and prison systems for political rivals/dissidents that are looking pretty positive.
Also people can leave with their families through visas now. They're not cheap, but its no longer isolationist at all.
Money is always a constraint. Consider Haiti, with its ostensibly (and apparently floundering) free-market capitalist economy--Haitians seeking to emigrate hardly have an easy time of it either.
Simultaneously, I suspect the Cuban population as a whole, while aware of their own hardship, would compare themselves pretty favorably to staunchly anti-communist Haiti.
Cuba has been changing it's organizational structure over the last ten years anyhow. Raoul Castro has essentially created both term limits and age limits for his successor in 2018, the boom in Medical tourism has led to changing realities in how they run their communist system, and there have been a bunch of reforms to both military and prison systems for political rivals/dissidents that are looking pretty positive.
Also people can leave with their families through visas now. They're not cheap, but its no longer isolationist at all.
Money is always a constraint. Consider Haiti, with its ostensibly (and apparently floundering) free-market capitalist economy--Haitians seeking to emigrate hardly have an easy time of it either.
Simultaneously, I suspect the Cuban population as a whole, while aware of their own hardship, would compare themselves pretty favorably to staunchly anti-communist Haiti.
Aren't Cuban pretty much on top of the Quality of Life indicators for the entire Caribbean - including Puerto Rico? It's not Latin America's Europe, but it's not a basket case either.
Forget the Cigar bomb, what abou the time the CIA tried to spray Fidel's clothes down with Thallium to make his beard fall off?
Or on a more terrifying note, Operation Northwoods. a plan that would have entailed attacks on American soil as a false flag and justification for Cuban invasion.
Oh man. Flashback: Any West Wing fans, who watched the Season 6 Episode, Ninety Miles Apart?
So much of that episode rings true right now.
The only reason this shit fest with Cuba has perpetuated is simple: Florida is a swing state, that both parties covet. The moment a politician starts talking about normalizing relations with Cuba, a small, but very vocal minority is going to raise hell and cost votes. No Florida politician will touch it. Go listen to every senator and house rep from Florida, of either party, and listen to them slam the desk on Cuba and how terrible they are. They have to kiss the ass of the Cuban American community.
Obama did what they couldn't. The real question I have is what will this do during the next election cycle to the Dems. The rest of America could care less about Cuba, but in a swing state like Florida? Time will tell.
On NPR the other day they had some Florida official on and she said that while there might be a vocal group opposed to it in Miami, her constituents were all for normalizing relations.
All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
Is opening up relations good, to me yeah sure why not, but its definitely not a huge deal unless your just trying to compensate for other failures in your foreign policy resume.
Now giving Puerto Rico independence would probably be much more beneficial to the united states.
All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
Is opening up relations good, to me yeah sure why not, but its definitely not a huge deal unless your just trying to compensate for other failures in your foreign policy resume.
Now giving Puerto Rico independence would probably be much more beneficial to the united states.
It may not fix all the budget problems, but it would probably be super good for the economy if we stopped incarcerating a ridiculous amount of our working population for made up felonies!
Back on topic - trade is good. Cuba is a populated foreign country that is closer to Miami than Disney World is. It will absolutely be a boon to the Florida economy, and might help push out some of the ridiculous economic policies they have in state.
All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
Is opening up relations good, to me yeah sure why not, but its definitely not a huge deal unless your just trying to compensate for other failures in your foreign policy resume.
Now giving Puerto Rico independence would probably be much more beneficial to the united states.
Didn't Puerto Rico vote down going independent recently? I swear they did.
I don't see anyone saying a huge boon to the US economy, but it will improve a pretty dumb international relationship issue the us has had since the embargo.
I mean Kerry today said its not isolated Cuba, its isolated the US in that we were the only country doing it.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Man our plans to kill castro were so laughable they make the Interview seem like unearthed footage.
I find it amazing that anyone actually thought that the cigar bomb would actually work.
Maybe in 1960's tech, but in modern day, bombs needn't be very big. Ask the Mosad - exploding phones, car-head rests, etc.,
It's not the size that gets to me. It's the fact that it could have just as easily gone off in an ash tray, sat around for years or gone off in some other guys face.
Man our plans to kill castro were so laughable they make the Interview seem like unearthed footage.
I find it amazing that anyone actually thought that the cigar bomb would actually work.
Maybe in 1960's tech, but in modern day, bombs needn't be very big. Ask the Mosad - exploding phones, car-head rests, etc.,
It's not the size that gets to me. It's the fact that it could have just as easily gone off in an ash tray, sat around for years or gone off in some other guys face.
It's just absurdly sloppy.
That's how you know it was a CIA plan!
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
Is opening up relations good, to me yeah sure why not, but its definitely not a huge deal unless your just trying to compensate for other failures in your foreign policy resume.
Now giving Puerto Rico independence would probably be much more beneficial to the united states.
Didn't Puerto Rico vote down going independent recently? I swear they did.
I don't see anyone saying a huge boon to the US economy, but it will improve a pretty dumb international relationship issue the us has had since the embargo.
I mean Kerry today said its not isolated Cuba, its isolated the US in that we were the only country doing it.
Im unaware of any ill effects on the United States from other countries due to our embargo.
From what I understand it was basically a relic from the Cold War that we kept up out of principal and also because there was minimal negative effects, we still had Gitmo even.
Its a nice bit of progress, ranking above renaming the potatoe a vegatable but that aint sayin a whole lot.
All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
Is opening up relations good, to me yeah sure why not, but its definitely not a huge deal unless your just trying to compensate for other failures in your foreign policy resume.
Now giving Puerto Rico independence would probably be much more beneficial to the united states.
Last I saw the majority of Puerto Ricans favored statehood over independence.
Of all the foreign policy blunders of the United States I would put money on the continued embargo of cuba not being close to the top.
And I do see why people supported it, Castro did a lot of terrible things and its not like the government has had a gigantic transformation. Im sure if I had family that had been disappeared by his regime I would feel differently.
But I dont, so it will help the people of Cuba and bring some additional business to the United States so in /monotone YEAH!
Edit: Either Puerto Rico or Georgia becoming independent would bring more benefit to the U.S. then lifting the embargo to Cuba, unfornately we are stuck with Georgia the die isnt cast with Puerto Rico.
Of all the foreign policy blunders of the United States I would put money on the continued embargo of cuba not being close to the top.
And I do see why people supported it, Castro did a lot of terrible things and its not like the government has had a gigantic transformation. Im sure if I had family that had been disappeared by his regime I would feel differently.
But I dont, so it will help the people of Cuba and bring some additional business to the United States so in /monotone YEAH!
Edit: Either Puerto Rico or Georgia becoming independent would bring more benefit to the U.S. then lifting the embargo to Cuba, unfornately we are stuck with Georgia the die isnt cast with Puerto Rico.
The continued embargo isn't about priorities or how it'd benefit the US, the new congress is in the GOP's control like the last was. They're in their obsctruction phase and that's not going to change any time soon. Once the Dems retain control of congress again then the embargo has a chance to be lifted.
There was a plan to drug Fidel with lsd during one of his radio broadcasts to make him look crazy.
A plan to use starshells to convince the Cuban population that God wanted them to rise up against the comminists.
They were...not very good at plans back then I guess.
CIA: Can we uh... requisition some LSD. It's totally for an operation, trust us! Yeah, Castro! We'll drug him, it'll be awesome
They probably didn't even need to do that because at the time they likely had their own supply. MKULTRA, and even the Brits at the time were testing LSD on their military personnel.
All the people making this into a great new age in economic prosperity for the U.S. remind me of the people saying that marijuana legalization is the panacea that is going to fix all budget problems.
Who's doing that? All I'm really seeing are people saying "finally, ending this stupid thing is long overdue" or "Communism!!!!" without much else. I mean, it'll be a pretty big deal for Cuba but not that huge since they already trade with Canada, Mexico, and everywhere else anyway; and it'll probably be a big deal for Miami but that's about it.
And while I would agree that it's far from our greatest or gravest foreign policy blunder, it's definitely our greatest foreign policy blunder that has a zero cost solution. There is seriously no downside to normalizing relations, so no matter how minuscule the upside is it's quite literally infinitely larger.
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frenetic_ferretwildest weaselEast Coast is Best CoastRegistered Userregular
We looked like idiots? I mean the cuban embargo when I believe we are literally the only country still doing it is just petty childish bullshit.
And Rand Paul backs the move to appeal to idiots in College who read one thing about Rand Paul.
We kept the embargo going as long as we did just to prove we could embargo the fuck out of someone and be dicks about it till we got our way to other countries. It's the age old tactic of finding someone you know you can beat the dog shit out of and then flaying the ever loving hell out of them to scare the piss out of people you'd rather not tangle with. Cuba is a worthless little shit hole with no real power or value, so we could get away with making a public demonstration of our determination and power on them. There wasn't shit they could do about it and nobody gave a damn about them enough to pester us over it.
Cuba was something we could point at when threatening embargos and sanctions against Iran to prove we'd do it. And also something we could point at to prove our determination when we caved to Best Korea's crazy demands.
Eventually though we just looked like idiots, which is more of the reason the policy is changing than any sort of altruism or good will. It's counter productive now.
Posts
Actually, yes. There's believed to be significant oil reserves in Cuban territorial waters.
Well, for one my "basis" was commenting on some people saying this would be an opportune time for us to get on the ground floor of Cuban governance and influencing their culture.
I don't have a problem with trade itself. Never did.
It'll be exciting and change both the peninsula and the island forever and for the better. Might actually be worth sticking around and seeing how it goes.
Also people can leave with their families through visas now. They're not cheap, but its no longer isolationist at all.
No, because I'm not arguing against normalizing relations with Cuba.
I was merely pointing out that the Cuba-China comparison, while most of the population thus most of his viewers, don't care to know anything besides that they are both "Communist", wasn't a good comparison. And part of why the relationship is different also has to do with events I listed prior to the part of my post you quoted (essentially, that we have had a hate on for Cuba that didn't exist to such an extent with China, and the way we have handled Cuba in the past is far different than our handling of China.)
pleasepaypreacher.net
This demands both a snap and an agree.
Yet I only can give one...
So much of that episode rings true right now.
The only reason this shit fest with Cuba has perpetuated is simple: Florida is a swing state, that both parties covet. The moment a politician starts talking about normalizing relations with Cuba, a small, but very vocal minority is going to raise hell and cost votes. No Florida politician will touch it. Go listen to every senator and house rep from Florida, of either party, and listen to them slam the desk on Cuba and how terrible they are. They have to kiss the ass of the Cuban American community.
Obama did what they couldn't. The real question I have is what will this do during the next election cycle to the Dems. The rest of America could care less about Cuba, but in a swing state like Florida? Time will tell.
pleasepaypreacher.net
This is also one of those moves that, once it matures, will be impossible to turn back. Right now, you have thousands of aging Cubans in Miami who really hate Castro. In a decade, you'll have millions of people all over Florida who rely on Cuban trade and tourism for their livelihood.
Pretty much, its why the howling is so loud right now, the morons realize that once the people benefit from this change, they'll want more things to come down like the trade embargo.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I find it amazing that anyone actually thought that the cigar bomb would actually work.
Cat Bomb is worse, if only because come on cat bomb.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Maybe in 1960's tech, but in modern day, bombs needn't be very big. Ask the Mosad - exploding phones, car-head rests, etc.,
Money is always a constraint. Consider Haiti, with its ostensibly (and apparently floundering) free-market capitalist economy--Haitians seeking to emigrate hardly have an easy time of it either.
Simultaneously, I suspect the Cuban population as a whole, while aware of their own hardship, would compare themselves pretty favorably to staunchly anti-communist Haiti.
Aren't Cuban pretty much on top of the Quality of Life indicators for the entire Caribbean - including Puerto Rico? It's not Latin America's Europe, but it's not a basket case either.
Or on a more terrifying note, Operation Northwoods. a plan that would have entailed attacks on American soil as a false flag and justification for Cuban invasion.
A plan to use starshells to convince the Cuban population that God wanted them to rise up against the comminists.
They were...not very good at plans back then I guess.
On NPR the other day they had some Florida official on and she said that while there might be a vocal group opposed to it in Miami, her constituents were all for normalizing relations.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
CIA: Can we uh... requisition some LSD. It's totally for an operation, trust us! Yeah, Castro! We'll drug him, it'll be awesome
Is opening up relations good, to me yeah sure why not, but its definitely not a huge deal unless your just trying to compensate for other failures in your foreign policy resume.
Now giving Puerto Rico independence would probably be much more beneficial to the united states.
It may not fix all the budget problems, but it would probably be super good for the economy if we stopped incarcerating a ridiculous amount of our working population for made up felonies!
Back on topic - trade is good. Cuba is a populated foreign country that is closer to Miami than Disney World is. It will absolutely be a boon to the Florida economy, and might help push out some of the ridiculous economic policies they have in state.
Didn't Puerto Rico vote down going independent recently? I swear they did.
I don't see anyone saying a huge boon to the US economy, but it will improve a pretty dumb international relationship issue the us has had since the embargo.
I mean Kerry today said its not isolated Cuba, its isolated the US in that we were the only country doing it.
pleasepaypreacher.net
It's not the size that gets to me. It's the fact that it could have just as easily gone off in an ash tray, sat around for years or gone off in some other guys face.
It's just absurdly sloppy.
That's how you know it was a CIA plan!
pleasepaypreacher.net
Im unaware of any ill effects on the United States from other countries due to our embargo.
From what I understand it was basically a relic from the Cold War that we kept up out of principal and also because there was minimal negative effects, we still had Gitmo even.
Its a nice bit of progress, ranking above renaming the potatoe a vegatable but that aint sayin a whole lot.
And Rand Paul backs the move to appeal to idiots in College who read one thing about Rand Paul.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Last I saw the majority of Puerto Ricans favored statehood over independence.
And I do see why people supported it, Castro did a lot of terrible things and its not like the government has had a gigantic transformation. Im sure if I had family that had been disappeared by his regime I would feel differently.
But I dont, so it will help the people of Cuba and bring some additional business to the United States so in /monotone YEAH!
Edit: Either Puerto Rico or Georgia becoming independent would bring more benefit to the U.S. then lifting the embargo to Cuba, unfornately we are stuck with Georgia the die isnt cast with Puerto Rico.
The continued embargo isn't about priorities or how it'd benefit the US, the new congress is in the GOP's control like the last was. They're in their obsctruction phase and that's not going to change any time soon. Once the Dems retain control of congress again then the embargo has a chance to be lifted.
It's less about being worse at planning back then and more about throwing everything at a wall and seeing what sticks.
Like DARPA.
They probably didn't even need to do that because at the time they likely had their own supply. MKULTRA, and even the Brits at the time were testing LSD on their military personnel.
Who's doing that? All I'm really seeing are people saying "finally, ending this stupid thing is long overdue" or "Communism!!!!" without much else. I mean, it'll be a pretty big deal for Cuba but not that huge since they already trade with Canada, Mexico, and everywhere else anyway; and it'll probably be a big deal for Miami but that's about it.
And while I would agree that it's far from our greatest or gravest foreign policy blunder, it's definitely our greatest foreign policy blunder that has a zero cost solution. There is seriously no downside to normalizing relations, so no matter how minuscule the upside is it's quite literally infinitely larger.
We kept the embargo going as long as we did just to prove we could embargo the fuck out of someone and be dicks about it till we got our way to other countries. It's the age old tactic of finding someone you know you can beat the dog shit out of and then flaying the ever loving hell out of them to scare the piss out of people you'd rather not tangle with. Cuba is a worthless little shit hole with no real power or value, so we could get away with making a public demonstration of our determination and power on them. There wasn't shit they could do about it and nobody gave a damn about them enough to pester us over it.
Cuba was something we could point at when threatening embargos and sanctions against Iran to prove we'd do it. And also something we could point at to prove our determination when we caved to Best Korea's crazy demands.
Eventually though we just looked like idiots, which is more of the reason the policy is changing than any sort of altruism or good will. It's counter productive now.