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The Even Cooler Stuff From [History] Thread

RichyRichy Registered User regular
Seven scores and two days ago, our fathers brought forth on this subforum a new thread, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that cool stuff has happened in history. Long story short, it got locked after 100 pages so I decided to make a new one.

"Cool" here encompasses both meanings of awe, namely awesome and awful. So feel free to talk about stuff that is absolutely amazing and stuff that is absolutely horrifying.

I'll save the rest of this post in case I decide to post a more intelligent OP later (or more likely, if someone makes such a post for me) and post the actual article I came here to post in the next post. Can I get my trophy for the most instances of the word "post" in one sentence yet?

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Posts

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Ancient Sea Rise Tale Told Accurately for 10,000 Years

    While verbal stories get changed constantly and are a poor way to record history, it seems Aboriginal Australians are an exception. One scientist believes it is because "there are aspects of storytelling in Australia that involved kin-based responsibilities to tell the stories accurately". Whatever the reason, these stories talk about life on lands where today only sea exists. Australian Atlantises, except for the fact that modern computer reconstruction of Australia at the last ice age indicates there actually was land in those places some 8000 to 12000 years ago. So Australian Atlantises that actually existed at the beginning of the Neolithic, and the stories describing there have survived since then all the way to the modern age.

    This also leads to an important realization. To quote one of the authors, "This paper makes the case that endangered Indigenous languages can be repositories for factual knowledge across time depths far greater than previously imagined." This is important, as more than half of the world's currently-existing 6000 languages are on the verge of extinction. Most of these are indigenous languages spoken by ancient but small and isolated tribes, and the languages are spoken only by the elderly (in some cases even by only one last person) while the younger generations learn and use more international languages spoken by millions of people. If the results of this Australian study hold true for other languages, then we are about to lose part of recorded Human history stretching back to the dawn of agriculture and civilization, a loss that can never be compensated for again.

    sig.gif
    V1mAtomikaEupfhoriaMagelllonelyahavaDisruptedCapitalistL Ron HowardCorehealerVegemyteTofystedethEdith UpwardsMetzger Meister
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    Not to sidetrack the convo already, but I've always thought it seemed kind of awkward when people talk about wanting to preserve all 6,000 different languages forever. I mean, okay, who wants to be the guy to go tell these 3,000 tribes of a couple of hundred dudes that they need to remain isolated from the rest of humanity indefinitely, so that we can use them as some sort of living museum?

    ElvenshaeArthil
  • MalyonsusMalyonsus Registered User regular
    Most linguists I know mean preservation in the sense of academically recording the grammar and vocabulary of these languages.

    Live: Malyonsus | PSN: Malyonsus
    Wii: As soon as I look it up.
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    Most linguists I know mean preservation in the sense of academically recording the grammar and vocabulary of these languages.
    Also, you don't need to isolate a people and keep them monolingual to save their language. English, French, Arabic, etc., are all alive and well with their people being multilingual and international.

    sig.gif
    V1mlonelyahavaEdith Upwards
  • hsuhsu Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    So it seems that the only Boston snowfall record left unbroken is from 1945.
    map5.jpg?w=420&h=237
    So in anticipation of that record being broken this week, I give to you two photos and a short movie from the winter of 1945.
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2014/11/25/snow-porn-boston-blanketed-through-the-years/sApfHiRBCtf7NPUmcA4o6H/story.html
    statehouse.jpg
    faneuilhall.jpg

    hsu on
    iTNdmYl.png
    ElvenshaeGnome-Interruptus
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Let's talk about Elaphurus davidianus. It's most commonly known in the west as Père David's deer or milu in China.

    pere_davids_deer_1.jpg
    A pretty cool looking deer

    In the 1860s a French missionary and zoologist named Armand David (aka Père David) was sent to China to proselytize and begin a natural history collection. No idea how he did in the former, but in the latter he was highly successful, recording for western science over a hundred species, including the giant panda and the milu. While the milu apparently ranged far further in ancient history, with fossils found all over China and into Korea and ancient legends about them, by the 1860s they were reduced to one location: a walled imperial hunting garden of the Chinese Emperor himself, as it had been extinct in the wild for many, many years (some say a thousand, having been kept as special pets of the emperors through entire dynasties).

    A few were somehow smuggled out of the garden and China to Europe, which was fortuitous, as in 1895 there was a flood that destroyed the wall, causing most of the milu to escape and get eaten by starving peasants, and in 1900 during the Boxer Rebellion the few remaining milu were eaten by occupying troops. The species was kept alive by the Dukes of Bedford during the world wars and now they live in zoos around the world. In 1985, the milu were reintroduced to parks in China, where their populations are now increasing and they may, one day, be brought back to the wild to be free-ranging for the first time in centuries.

    FakefauxKrieghundQuidrockrngerElvenshaeShadowfireAntinumericNocrenRichydestroyah87chrishallett83Giggles_FunsworthYoshisummonsLord_AsmodeusDarkPrimusMvrckShivahnKnuckle DraggerXaquinJuliusMagellHappylilElfJobless AnarchistlonelyahavaDisruptedCapitalistPenumbraL Ron HowardGnome-InterruptusFlying CouchNijaElldrenCorehealerSkeithVegemyteArthilTransportervalhalla130TofystedethBrocksMulletAlbino BunnyTL DRLinespider5Edith UpwardsMetzger MeisterStormwatcher
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    I'm still reading up on them otherwise I'd throw up a post myself but


    One of you guys should throw up a write up on the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Sejm and the whole wacky political system they had.

    gem from wikipedia

    It is estimated that between 1493 and 1793, a Sejm was held 240 times, the total debate-time sum of which was 44 years

    MeeqeCorehealerVegemyte
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    In Denmark there is a term, "gullaschbaron." As you might guess, it literally translates to "goulash baron." Google Translate says it means "nouveau riche" but nouveau riche is merely an expression of snobbery from people with old money; a goulash baron is a bit more unsavory.

    During World War I, due largely to the British naval blockade, Germany faced major shortages in most supplies, but especially food. Poor harvests made conditions even worse - the winter of 1916-1917 was known as the Turnip Winter because the potato harvest had mostly failed, when most people were subsiding on potatoes at that point, meaning people were having to survive on low-grade turnips that had mostly been used for animal feed before. It's estimated that hundreds of thousands of civilians died of effects of malnutrition during the war. Meat was especially scarce in the Land of 1200 Sausages - in 1915 five million pigs were killed during the Schweinemord ("pig murder") to reserve more food for humans.

    This of course meant there was lots of opportunity for war profiteering. Although the term gullaschbaron applies to all the profiteers, including those who made money from stock speculation, it derives from the food sellers. There was a lot of money in food smuggling into Germany, and especially with the shortage of meat the Germans weren't able to be picky. Maybe the meat was rat. Maybe it was actually cartilage. Maybe it was rotten. Maybe it was rotten rat cartilage. If cooked up in a goulash and canned, no one would notice at first and massive profits were had by the Danes.

    There's a Danish Wikipedia page on them, listing particular gullaschbarons.

  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Man, I dunno what people have against turnips. They taste great, you just gotta know how to cook them.

    Elvenshae
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Actual meant-for-humans-grade plump turnips yes I agree, but these were tiny rock-hard turnips usually meant as animal feed, not bred for taste or being palatable. The kind of stuff they'd have fed to the pigs, only they'd killed all the pigs, so they baked bread out of it.

    In other food history, the Irish Lumper, which was the primary variety that fed the Irish before the famine, was apparently kinda mediocre or okay at best though with a waxy texture but during wet years were utterly awful. The Irish lived off and then died from lack of pretty crappy potatoes.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Meh, plenty of places have had famines. Pettu bread was made from pine bark.

    Having to stomach turnips doesn't sound too bad, even if they're worse quality than you're used to. Then again, I'm one of those weirdos who's cooked reindeer moss and other uncommon things. It's surprising how many things are edible, if not necessarily palatable.

    Rhan9 on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    Going 'meh, famines' to something that killed a couple hundred thousand people sounds kind of Internet Tough Guy.

    Thor1590Elvenshaechrishallett83Phoenix-DMagellSmrtnikfrandelgearslipEncGnome-InterruptusFeralElldrenSkeithDarkewolfeVegemyteelectricitylikesmeInquisitorBloodySlothStormwatcherCelestialBadgerHavelock2.0
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Scooter wrote: »
    Going 'meh, famines' to something that killed a couple hundred thousand people sounds kind of Internet Tough Guy.

    Really?

    Fucking really?

    Thinking that eating sub-par turnips is not the worst possible outcome of a famine counts as Internet Tough Guy talk now?

    Rhan9 on
    Geth
  • Thor1590Thor1590 Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Going 'meh, famines' to something that killed a couple hundred thousand people sounds kind of Internet Tough Guy.

    Really?

    Fucking really?

    Thinking that eating sub-par turnips is not the worst possible outcome of a famine counts as Internet Tough Guy talk now?

    Except that eating sub-par turnips also killed a couple hundred thousand people, so yes.

    Edit: What I'm really trying to say is that having to eat sub-par turnips was not the worst outcome of that famine.

    Thor1590 on
    chrishallett83RedTideprogramjunkieSmrtnikFeralElldrenCorehealerSkeithVegemyteelectricitylikesmeInquisitor
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Thor1590 wrote: »
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Going 'meh, famines' to something that killed a couple hundred thousand people sounds kind of Internet Tough Guy.

    Really?

    Fucking really?

    Thinking that eating sub-par turnips is not the worst possible outcome of a famine counts as Internet Tough Guy talk now?

    Except that eating sub-par turnips also killed a couple hundred thousand people, so yes.

    Edit: What I'm really trying to say is that having to eat sub-par turnips was not the worst outcome of that famine.

    Pretty sure it wasn't the turnips that killed the people, but malnutrition, since the turnips couldn't supply everything you need to stay alive.

  • Thor1590Thor1590 Registered User regular
    k

    ElvenshaeJebusUD
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Thor1590 wrote: »
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Going 'meh, famines' to something that killed a couple hundred thousand people sounds kind of Internet Tough Guy.

    Really?

    Fucking really?

    Thinking that eating sub-par turnips is not the worst possible outcome of a famine counts as Internet Tough Guy talk now?

    Except that eating sub-par turnips also killed a couple hundred thousand people, so yes.

    Edit: What I'm really trying to say is that having to eat sub-par turnips was not the worst outcome of that famine.

    Pretty sure it wasn't the turnips that killed the people, but malnutrition, since the turnips couldn't supply everything you need to stay alive.

    Yes because the sub-par turnips were all they had to eat.

    ElvenshaeEncElldrenVegemyteThe Black Hunter
  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    In 1884, New Orleans held a World's Fair, known as the World Cotton Centennial. One of the less notable events was the gift of several water hyacinth plants to the city by a Japanese delegation. The flowers were very popular and soon adorned several ponds and lakes. Of course, only eight years after the introduction of Kudzu to the United States (at the Philadelphia World's Fair), the concept of "invasive species" was not very well established, and by the turn of the century, hyacinth was choking the bayous and waterways. Shipping was impeded by the floating masses of hyacinth, and the fishing industry was destroyed as the plants sucked all the oxygen out of the water and created large dead zones. The state couldn't solve the problem, neither could the army. Congressman Robert F. Broussard, however, had a plan.

    With absolutely no sense of irony whatsoever, Broussard decided that the best way to deal with this invasive species was to introduce an animal that would eat it in large quantities. Because America was going through a meat shortage, he collaborated with several individuals looking to import animals that would thrive in the swamp and provide food. In 1910, they produced H.R. 23261, a bill to appropriate $250,000 for the importation of useful new animals into the United States. It would become known as the American Hippo Bill.

    Lobbying for the bill was strong, both in Congress and in the press. In the words of the New York Times:
    Lake cow bacon, made from the delicious hyacinth-fed hippopotamus of Louisiana's lily-fringed streams, should soon be obtainable from the Southern packing houses. Properly seeded, Southern streams and marshes will grow thirty to fifty tons of hyacinth to the acre, and on 6,400,000 now useless acres in the Gulf States 1,000,000 tons of the most delicious of flesh foods, worth $100,000,000, may be grown yearly.

    vx2i.jpg
    I predict no way in which this plan might backfire.

    Of course, the plan did not just stop at hippos; the Times continues:
    The great 400 pound porkers of Northern Manchuria; the yak from Tibet, a saddle and draught animal, good for its flesh and milk; the llama from South America; the African buffalo, the hides of which produce better leather than is found in our finest shoes; the gentle white rhinoceros, of excellent flavor , and adapted to our Southwestern deserts ... the giraffe, with the purest flesh, free of uric acid, that would live on the scrub of our deserts; the elephant, the camel, and the zebra are just a few of the many foreign animals that can be domesticate here for useful labor and for food.

    pD0oAfG.jpg?1
    Behold, the gentle White Rhinoceros

    Alas, the American Hippo Bill was not meant to be. The impending hippocalypse was defeated in committee by a single dissenting vote over concerns that stocking our public wild lands with big game might turn them into hunting preserves for the wealthy. Instead, it was decided to drain the swamps and turn the unproductive land into land suitable for raising cattle.

    CarpyShadowfireElvenshaeNocrenL Ron HowardMayabirdGnome-InterruptusAsharadKruiteElldrenJusticeforPlutoCorehealerSkeithVegemyteelectricitylikesmeAlbino BunnyLinespider5FoolOnTheHillEdith UpwardsMetzger MeisterStormwatcherMvrckHefflingdestroyah87
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    So if there was an empire or nation/state that you wish could have survive into the modern day which would it be?

    for me the answer is easy

    Byzantium/Byzantine Empire/ERE whatever you call it.


    Imagine if a part of the Roman Empire survived into the modern age. Imagine the changes it may have over that section of the world (for good or bad)

    I've also always wished that China never went Communist. That they still had an emperor and Mandate of Heaven and stuff.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    So if there was an empire or nation/state that you wish could have survive into the modern day which would it be?

    for me the answer is easy

    Byzantium/Byzantine Empire/ERE whatever you call it.


    Imagine if a part of the Roman Empire survived into the modern age. Imagine the changes it may have over that section of the world (for good or bad)

    I've also always wished that China never went Communist. That they still had an emperor and Mandate of Heaven and stuff.

    I had this conversation with my dad a long time ago. We agreed it would have been brilliant if the new world natives had been allowed to continue without Europeans pushing them around the land.

    And now that you've brought it up, it would have been pretty rad to see the monument building cultures existing into today. Pyramids, temples, Easter island weirdness, etc. be pretty cool to see those types of things still being built with modern materials and such.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
    Gnome-InterruptusVegemyte
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Byzantium/ERE or a Roman Empire that never fell, Imperial China, Imperial Japan (pre-Meiji form of it), Northern and Southern Americas without the disease-related mass deaths and subsequent conquests.

    There would've been some massive differences to the global geopolitics, and it would make a hella-interesting alternate history setting.

  • ethicalseanethicalsean Registered User regular
    "Our Hearts Were Touched with Fire: The Memory of the Civil War." The speech, given by John Neff, a Professor of History at the University of Mississippi, delves into academic historical interpretation and the general public's memory of events. It felt appropriate to post after the "forum spat" over in the Ferguson thread. It does not get started until about 9-10minutes into the video.

    ShadowfireTheColonel
  • KanaKana Registered User regular

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    RichyDisruptedCapitalistL Ron Howard
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I'm never quite sure about linking to BBC shows that are on youtube, so I'm not gonna risk it.

    But I'll just say that Secrets of the Castle is a FANTASTIC documentary.

    Like it is AMAZINGLY interesting. Watch it. Watch it right now. You'll be so happy you did.

    It's a 5 part series all about Guedelon Castle in France:
    Guédelon Castle is a medieval construction project located in Treigny, France. The object of the project is to build a castle using only the techniques and materials used in the Middle Ages. When completed in the 2020s, it should be an authentic recreation of a 13th-century medieval castle.

    In order to fully investigate the technology required in the past, the project is using only period construction techniques, tools, and costumes. Materials, including wood and stone, are all obtained locally. Jacques Moulin is the chief architect for the project. He designed the castle according to the architectural model developed during the 12th and 13th centuries by Philip II of France.

    The series follows construction projects throughout the castle, from lumber, quarrying, masonry, smithing, making clothes and weapons... It's just super cool, goes in-depth on the kinds of daily life stuff that most documentaries don't trust their audiences to be interested in.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    FakefauxElvenshaeAntinumericShadowfireRhan9MayabirdXaquindestroyah87chrishallett83YoshisummonsV1mElldrenSkeithVegemyteJobless AnarchistNocrenJihadJesuskaortiFoolOnTheHillEdith UpwardsDevlin_Dragonus
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    On November 12th, 1921 the negotiations for the Washington Naval Treaty began. It was the first international conference held in the US and the first Arms Control Treaty signed. It had massive sweeping impacts on naval ship design leading up to WWII. It prevented a new naval arms race and signaled a major shift in world power. We're not going to talk about any of those things today. Nope, we're gonna talk about why the Japanese ended up with the exact number of ships they had.

    When you're a country coming to a negotiation like this, you have a couple of numbers in mind. You've got a never gonna happen number. You've got a we did great number. A we did alright number and most importantly the lowest number we'll accept. Japan got exactly the lowest number they would accept. There were a lot of arguments about who deserved what kind of tonnage to patrol their territories. The Japanese argued that they had the Pacific to cover along with other associated seas and thus deserved the same tonnage as the US and British. The US and British wanted to check the power of Tokyo. So in the end you get the 5:5:3:1.75:1.75 ratio. The US, British, Japanese, France and Italian navies would be allowed the tonnage in that order. The Japanese wanted the ratio to be 10:7 which would have given them 21 battleships instead of 18 compared to the US and UK getting 30.
    3QrL6CX.jpg

    The man above is Herbert O. Yardley and he's the primary reason that Japan got the tonnage numbers he had. At the time of the Washington Naval Treaty he was operating MI-8, which is more commonly known as The Black Chamber. The Black Chamber was based out of New York City and it's primary job was to decrypt diplomatic communications coming into the US via telegraph. And they were reading the Japanese diplomatic communications. They knew exactly what the Japanese would settle for. So thus the Washington Naval Treaty ends up with the numbers they did. But The Black Chamber was a joint State Department and US Army project.

    "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail." was Sec of State Henry Stimson's response when he found out about the organization and funding was pulled. Yardley would write a book about his experiences and it was published in 1931. Surprisingly it didn't seem to raise much of an issue in American and Japanese relations.

    Knuckle DraggerTL DR
  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    Seventy years ago today, Joe Rosenthal took one of the most famous photographs in American history:

    WW2_Iwo_Jima_flag_raising.jpg

    Of course, that was the second flag raised on Mount Suribachi that day; about 90 minutes earlier, a smaller flag, tied to a length of water pipe was raised over the peak. The second raising wasn't so they could stage a more dramatic photo (Rosenthal didn't even know what he had until he developed the roll). It was to protect the flag from being stolen. More specifically, it was to protect the flag from being stolen by the Secretary of the Navy. That morning, Lt. Colonel Chandler Johnson gave his men one of the battalion's flags with the instruction, "if you get to the top, put it up." They got to the top, and they put it up.

    iwo-2.jpg

    Down on the beach, Secretary of the Navy, James Forrestal was watching the conclusion of the battle. When he saw the flag go up, he decided he would take it home as a souvenir. Johnson felt that the flag belonged to the battalion, and responded accordingly:

    iwo.jpg
    Nope!

    The massive publicity over the photograph meant that Forrestal didn't get to keep the second flag, either; both were sent to the National Museum of the Marine Corps, where they remain today.

    BurtletoyElvenshaeSkeithTurksonDevlin_Dragonus
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    The raising of the flag photo actually has a fair amount of controversy. The names got screwed up a long the way and the Marine Corps got kinda shitty about the whole damn thing. Eventually it's been mostly straightened out but at the same time there is a certain amount of debate about if that's actually Bradley in the picture. The general consensus is yes but there is a certain amount of conspiracy theory that swirls around that picture.

  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    I'm never quite sure about linking to BBC shows that are on youtube, so I'm not gonna risk it.

    But I'll just say that Secrets of the Castle is a FANTASTIC documentary.

    Like it is AMAZINGLY interesting. Watch it. Watch it right now. You'll be so happy you did.

    It's a 5 part series all about Guedelon Castle in France:
    Guédelon Castle is a medieval construction project located in Treigny, France. The object of the project is to build a castle using only the techniques and materials used in the Middle Ages. When completed in the 2020s, it should be an authentic recreation of a 13th-century medieval castle.

    In order to fully investigate the technology required in the past, the project is using only period construction techniques, tools, and costumes. Materials, including wood and stone, are all obtained locally. Jacques Moulin is the chief architect for the project. He designed the castle according to the architectural model developed during the 12th and 13th centuries by Philip II of France.

    The series follows construction projects throughout the castle, from lumber, quarrying, masonry, smithing, making clothes and weapons... It's just super cool, goes in-depth on the kinds of daily life stuff that most documentaries don't trust their audiences to be interested in.

    You might be interested to know that these same historians have done several series on different time period farms. Edwardian Farm, Victorian Farm, Tales From The Green Valley (it was a medieval or a renaissance one, I think), one about life in a manor house etc.

    Might want to wiki the historians' names. All of it is good stuff. They usually spend a year living and working on the farm in an authentic fashion(although health and safety sometimes prohibits them actually living in the buildings in question due to reasons).

    Zyrelax
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Mortius is correct Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    sadly. that castles show is not available on bbc at the moment. sad face.

    but huzzah! it's on youtube! Victoire!

    edit the second

    Holy cow this is amazing and I'm going to binge watch until I can't watch anymore. I love things like this. thanks @Kana

    lonelyahava on
    Elldren
  • Morat242Morat242 Registered User regular
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    On November 12th, 1921 the negotiations for the Washington Naval Treaty began. It was the first international conference held in the US and the first Arms Control Treaty signed. It had massive sweeping impacts on naval ship design leading up to WWII. It prevented a new naval arms race and signaled a major shift in world power. We're not going to talk about any of those things today. Nope, we're gonna talk about why the Japanese ended up with the exact number of ships they had.

    When you're a country coming to a negotiation like this, you have a couple of numbers in mind. You've got a never gonna happen number. You've got a we did great number. A we did alright number and most importantly the lowest number we'll accept. Japan got exactly the lowest number they would accept. There were a lot of arguments about who deserved what kind of tonnage to patrol their territories. The Japanese argued that they had the Pacific to cover along with other associated seas and thus deserved the same tonnage as the US and British. The US and British wanted to check the power of Tokyo. So in the end you get the 5:5:3:1.75:1.75 ratio. The US, British, Japanese, France and Italian navies would be allowed the tonnage in that order. The Japanese wanted the ratio to be 10:7 which would have given them 21 battleships instead of 18 compared to the US and UK getting 30.
    IIRC, the numbers of ships were 15:15:9 (actually 22:18:10 to begin with, given the older and smaller ships in the UK and US navies until they were scrapped and replaced with slightly fewer 35,000 ton ships), rather than 30:30:18. Japan's economy would have collapsed under the strain of building 18 battleships and battlecruisers. TBH, even the 5:3 ratio was remarkably generous to Japan, the arms race that would have resulted had there been no treaty would have ended in Japan maybe building it's cherished Eight-Eight Fleet (that is, 8 battleships and 8 battlecruisers) by bankrupting itself, only to watch the US 30 or 40 capital ships without straining very hard.

    But so unpopular was the treaty (and its successor, the London Naval Treaty, which also limited cruisers) with the ultranationalists, that they assassinated many of the politicians who had supported the treaty, including two Prime Minsters (and former PMs, the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal, the Finance Minister, the Grand Chamberlain...). At the trial of the 11 naval officers who had stormed the PM's residence and shot PM Inukai, the court received a petition for leniency with 350,000 signatures signed in blood. 11 youths in Niigata pleaded to be executed in their stead, and to prove their sincerity, each of them cut off a finger and mailed it to the court. Which was kind of wasted, since the assassins got 5-15 year sentences. For gunning down the Prime Minister of their nation in his own home.

    Gnome-InterruptusBurtletoy
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    sadly. that castles show is not available on bbc at the moment. sad face.

    but huzzah! it's on youtube! Victoire!

    edit the second

    Holy cow this is amazing and I'm going to binge watch until I can't watch anymore. I love things like this. thanks @Kana

    Please check their various series on different period farms too. They're really interesting to watch.

    They've done:

    Victorian Farm
    Victorian Pharmacy
    Edwardian Farm
    Tudor Monastery Farm
    Wartime Farm
    Tales from the Green Valley (renaissence farming thing)

    Rhan9 on
    GethXaquinElvenshaeZyrelaxlonelyahava
  • cckerberoscckerberos Registered User regular
    Morat242 wrote: »
    But so unpopular was the treaty (and its successor, the London Naval Treaty, which also limited cruisers) with the ultranationalists, that they assassinated many of the politicians who had supported the treaty, including two Prime Minsters (and former PMs, the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal, the Finance Minister, the Grand Chamberlain...).

    I wouldn't draw too straight of a line between the London Naval Treaty and the 2/26 Incident. It was listed as one of the perpetrators' many grievances against the government, but it wasn't a primary motivation (they were army officers, after all). You also give them too much credit; they failed to kill the prime minister and grand chamberlain.

  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    Morat242 wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    On November 12th, 1921 the negotiations for the Washington Naval Treaty began. It was the first international conference held in the US and the first Arms Control Treaty signed. It had massive sweeping impacts on naval ship design leading up to WWII. It prevented a new naval arms race and signaled a major shift in world power. We're not going to talk about any of those things today. Nope, we're gonna talk about why the Japanese ended up with the exact number of ships they had.

    When you're a country coming to a negotiation like this, you have a couple of numbers in mind. You've got a never gonna happen number. You've got a we did great number. A we did alright number and most importantly the lowest number we'll accept. Japan got exactly the lowest number they would accept. There were a lot of arguments about who deserved what kind of tonnage to patrol their territories. The Japanese argued that they had the Pacific to cover along with other associated seas and thus deserved the same tonnage as the US and British. The US and British wanted to check the power of Tokyo. So in the end you get the 5:5:3:1.75:1.75 ratio. The US, British, Japanese, France and Italian navies would be allowed the tonnage in that order. The Japanese wanted the ratio to be 10:7 which would have given them 21 battleships instead of 18 compared to the US and UK getting 30.
    IIRC, the numbers of ships were 15:15:9 (actually 22:18:10 to begin with, given the older and smaller ships in the UK and US navies until they were scrapped and replaced with slightly fewer 35,000 ton ships), rather than 30:30:18. Japan's economy would have collapsed under the strain of building 18 battleships and battlecruisers. TBH, even the 5:3 ratio was remarkably generous to Japan, the arms race that would have resulted had there been no treaty would have ended in Japan maybe building it's cherished Eight-Eight Fleet (that is, 8 battleships and 8 battlecruisers) by bankrupting itself, only to watch the US 30 or 40 capital ships without straining very hard.

    But so unpopular was the treaty (and its successor, the London Naval Treaty, which also limited cruisers) with the ultranationalists, that they assassinated many of the politicians who had supported the treaty, including two Prime Minsters (and former PMs, the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal, the Finance Minister, the Grand Chamberlain...). At the trial of the 11 naval officers who had stormed the PM's residence and shot PM Inukai, the court received a petition for leniency with 350,000 signatures signed in blood. 11 youths in Niigata pleaded to be executed in their stead, and to prove their sincerity, each of them cut off a finger and mailed it to the court. Which was kind of wasted, since the assassins got 5-15 year sentences. For gunning down the Prime Minister of their nation in his own home.

    American ship building really was amazing.

  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Here's a hummingbird.

    Broad-billed-hummingbird-by-lazer29.jpg

    And here's an illustration of a lot of hummingbirds.

    428px-Haeckel_Trochilidae.jpg

    Hummingbirds are often described as looking like flying jewels or the like. They are (mostly) so tiny and fragile-looking, and visiting pretty flowers all the time, that you'd think they were delicate and harmless. You may be surprised to learn that hummingbirds can be quite aggressive actually. It's actually common among really small birds to be aggressive, because when you live in a world where nearly everything else is bigger than you and wants to eat you, the only way to survive is to be meaner and tougher than them. Birds don't get smaller than hummingbirds, and there are even insects large enough to eat them (and maybe don't click that link if you'll be horrified by pictures of dead hummers) so they have to be tough. Anyone who's watched hummingbirds for any length of time has seen their fights and chases, I've even read a report of an angry hummingbird driving off an eagle, though I wasn't able to find a link.

    Anyway, I mention all of this to explain a historical anecdote that might otherwise seem completely nonsensical: Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec god of war, the sun, and human sacrifice, the god that needed thousands of still-beating heart sacrifices, the scariest member of their rather scary and bloodthirsty pantheon, was often depicted as a hummingbird.

    Huitzilopochtli_telleriano.jpg

    I'm not entirely sure how you get Death Hummingbird out of that, but I'm also not sure how you get a feathered serpent out of most of the depictions of Quetzalcoatl either, but that's how they stylized things. The name is even derived from hummingbird, as their name for them was 'huītzilin' (which you notice is kinda onomatopoeia). It was also believed that warriors who fell in battle would be reincarnated as hummingbirds. They could sparkle in the light of their patron god while fighting each other.


    tl;dr To reduce your chances of being a blood sacrifice to a Mesoamerican god, put out a hummingbird feeder.

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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Here's a hummingbird.

    Broad-billed-hummingbird-by-lazer29.jpg

    And here's an illustration of a lot of hummingbirds.

    428px-Haeckel_Trochilidae.jpg

    Hummingbirds are often described as looking like flying jewels or the like. They are (mostly) so tiny and fragile-looking, and visiting pretty flowers all the time, that you'd think they were delicate and harmless. You may be surprised to learn that hummingbirds can be quite aggressive actually. It's actually common among really small birds to be aggressive, because when you live in a world where nearly everything else is bigger than you and wants to eat you, the only way to survive is to be meaner and tougher than them. Birds don't get smaller than hummingbirds, and there are even insects large enough to eat them (and maybe don't click that link if you'll be horrified by pictures of dead hummers) so they have to be tough. Anyone who's watched hummingbirds for any length of time has seen their fights and chases, I've even read a report of an angry hummingbird driving off an eagle, though I wasn't able to find a link.

    Anyway, I mention all of this to explain a historical anecdote that might otherwise seem completely nonsensical: Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec god of war, the sun, and human sacrifice, the god that needed thousands of still-beating heart sacrifices, the scariest member of their rather scary and bloodthirsty pantheon, was often depicted as a hummingbird.

    Huitzilopochtli_telleriano.jpg

    I'm not entirely sure how you get Death Hummingbird out of that, but I'm also not sure how you get a feathered serpent out of most of the depictions of Quetzalcoatl either, but that's how they stylized things. The name is even derived from hummingbird, as their name for them was 'huītzilin' (which you notice is kinda onomatopoeia). It was also believed that warriors who fell in battle would be reincarnated as hummingbirds. They could sparkle in the light of their patron god while fighting each other.


    tl;dr To reduce your chances of being a blood sacrifice to a Mesoamerican god, put out a hummingbird feeder.

    My favorite Aztec god was Xochipilli. Among the things in his domain were music, dancing, and flowers.

    display-1419.jpg

    Of course, flowers to the Aztecs weren't merely decorative. They also included in that concept medicinal and psychotropic plants. Xochipilli's brother, Ixtlilton, was the god of health and was ascribed responsibility for the medicinal part, leaving Xochipilli with all the delicious hallucinogens.

    Many cultures have associated music and dance with intoxication (Bacchus, anyone?) but the Aztecs weren't just satisfied with their pleasure god being drunk, he had to be tripping, too.

    In later accounts, he was also the patron figure of gay men.

    TLDR: the Aztecs worshipped a raver god.

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  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    As the Aztec gods go, the one I always found the most disturbing was old Xipe Totec, aka "Our Lord the Flayed One."

    250px-Xipe_Totec_1.jpg

    I mean, sure, having your heart cut out while you're alive is bad, but I imagine shock and blood loss would kill you fairly quickly. Xipe Totec favored sacrificial combat, where you were tied to a rock and given a traditional obsidian-blade sword, only the obsidian blades were replaced with feathers. Then you had to fight real warriors armed with real weapons, which seems like a much slower way to go, paired with the horrible illusion that you might be able to survive if you can somehow fight off your attackers. Also, at least Huitzilopochtli's priests didn't prance around in suits made of your skin afterward like Xipe Totec's did, to symbolize their god shedding his skin as maize sheds its husk.

    Those agricultural gods are a rough bunch.

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Every time I hear things about the Aztecs, my brain rebels and thinks, "No, that has to be all made up stuff to highlight the savagery of the heathen lands or something."

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Every time I hear things about the Aztecs, my brain rebels and thinks, "No, that has to be all made up stuff to highlight the savagery of the heathen lands or something."

    Nope. What has been made up is the white-washed peace-and-love history of European civilizations. They were every bit as savage as Aztecs and other civilizations, they just covered it up to pretend they weren't and look down on other civilizations.

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    That's a sobering thought for a Tuesday, and I wish it didn't ring true.

    Tone change!

    Bud-Nelson-e13822582847911.jpg?resize=632%2C442

    This is Horatio Nelson (left) and Bud (right). Together with Sewall K. Crocker they were the first cross-America road trip, in 1903.

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