Look if you have a better idea than collecting solar energy on normally snowy roadways and using that solar energy to then melt the snow on those roadways so solar energy can be collected, I'd like to hear it.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
The big thing with electric vehicles is that their energy is as clean as the power grid. Don't feel they are clean enough, just upgrade the grid if you can.
Also Volvo phasing out gas powered engines in 2019 will put more pressure on governments to build more infrastructure to support them and you already have demand from Tesla owners. The more people that have a need for a place to charge their vehicle, the more likely an elected official would push for policy that address that need. Eventually, a government somewhere will pass the law that requires all new vehicles in their nation to be either hybrid or electric.
Although I tend to lean free market, I think it would be awesome if some state would do this. Say California. If successful it would take hold across the country. I have a feeling we are 20 years away from battery tech that can compete with gasoline but California is pretty rich and early adoption seems to require being rich.
Never will happen in CA, we are too big. The charging infrastructure needed would be insane. That said, a few of the richer New England states like NJ or NY could likely pull it off. Sure there would be plenty of out of state gas engines, but with some in state incentives and a good charging infrastructure I'm sure it would pretty strongly increase the pressure on all surrounding states to make the change as well, until it finally went national.
Hybrid tho. If you passed a law in CA today mandating all vehicles have hybrid motors the only people that would notice would probably be sport car and big truck aficionados. Half the SUVS you see are hybrids anymore. It's really weird driving out of state and seeing how much lower hybrid adoption is. Government incentives made a huge difference even in rural areas.
You'd be surprised how many Priuses you'd see up here in the Rockies.
Not really considering I've driven mine to Montana. They are there but their market penetration in CA is pretty ridiculous by comparison. I'm not sure how sales numbers were in more recent years but according to this in 2009 we had around 5x the sales of the next state (NY). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States I think it's largely a result of government incentives more than anything else, and EVs are going to need the same sort of buy in from government to penetrate.
Talking to a friend with a RAV4 EV in Silicon Valley charging station availability is a largeish issue. He complained more than a couple times about people not unplugging in a timely fashion because there aren't enough to go around. And as many hybrids as there are seeing an EV is like seeing a Corvette. Occasionally, certainly more than Lamborghinis; but they aren't part of the background.
Giggles_Funsworth on
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Look if you have a better idea than collecting solar energy on normally snowy roadways and using that solar energy to then melt the snow on those roadways so solar energy can be collected, I'd like to hear it.
Yo this would totally work though. You collect solar energy when it is sunny before the snow comes, store it in a battery, use it to melt the snow so you can collect more solar energy.
Look if you have a better idea than collecting solar energy on normally snowy roadways and using that solar energy to then melt the snow on those roadways so solar energy can be collected, I'd like to hear it.
Yo this would totally work though. You collect solar energy when it is sunny before the snow comes, store it in a battery, use it to melt the snow so you can collect more solar energy.
Only in areas with more sun than not.
In places with maybe 4 hours of daylight, most of it cloudy (if not snowing), and with most nights giving you more snow, probably would not work.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Look if you have a better idea than collecting solar energy on normally snowy roadways and using that solar energy to then melt the snow on those roadways so solar energy can be collected, I'd like to hear it.
Yo this would totally work though. You collect solar energy when it is sunny before the snow comes, store it in a battery, use it to melt the snow so you can collect more solar energy.
Only in areas with more sun than not.
In places with maybe 4 hours of daylight, most of it cloudy (if not snowing), and with most nights giving you more snow, probably would not work.
Look dude I am engineering for Earth, not frozen hellscapes.
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
There is a kit you can buy to convert your car pre 85 to electric you need to know what transmission you have so you can have an adapter plate for the new electric engine
The batteries you get are only good for about 60 miles you can get more but it only goes up by 20 each set
The problem with clean energy is it varies by area
You can go crazy with solar here the cloudless days are numerous.
Telephone canyon between Cheyenne Wy and Laramie Wy has constant 45M+ winds so you would need a better wind generator then we have as there is little ease of repair there when it gusts to 200+
It doesn't take much to understand it's there we just lack the tech to really take advantage fully of it because of a lack of interest and investment
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
My comments were mostly directed towards his assertion that the Leaf was the future. If you had clicked that link it was mostly Leaf owners saying that this guy would be better off with a higher capacity EV for a 60 mile commute, half of which was up hills. The 107 mile estimated range of the Leaf is similarly dishonest to MPG claims; it's under ideal conditions. Elevation changes, bad weather, driving habits, traffic, etc. can cut it by around a quarter according to people that own the car!
The Tesla Model 3 (aside from the price tag that's solidly in the realm of luxury car for many people with long commutes,) is a poor example of a solution that is available today because the thing is backordered for days and Tesla has yet to prove they can scale their operations up without an increase in manufacturing defects that is worse than any other major auto manufacturer. I'm rooting for them and am more than a little bit of an Elon Musk fan, but we need to be realistic about the limitations of the technology as it exists today. Another drawback, as I said above, without massive investment in charging infrastructure they aren't going to take off.
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
My comments were mostly directed towards his assertion that the Leaf was the future. If you had clicked that link it was mostly Leaf owners saying that this guy would be better off with a higher capacity EV for a 60 mile commute, half of which was up hills. The 107 mile estimated range of the Leaf is similarly dishonest to MPG claims; it's under ideal conditions. Elevation changes, bad weather, driving habits, traffic, etc. can cut it by around a quarter according to people that own the car!
The Tesla Model 3 (aside from the price tag that's solidly in the realm of luxury car for many people with long commutes,) is a poor example of a solution that is available today because the thing is backordered for days and Tesla has yet to prove they can scale their operations up without an increase in manufacturing defects that is worse than any other major auto manufacturer. I'm rooting for them and am more than a little bit of an Elon Musk fan, but we need to be realistic about the limitations of the technology as it exists today. Another drawback, as I said above, without massive investment in charging infrastructure they aren't going to take off.
A 60 mile one way commute is an enormously long commute, it's the exact example I gave of a San Francisco to San Jose commute. Only 8% of US commuters drive more than 35 miles one way to work.
All the counterpoint to EVs are great and grubby more awesome all the time seem to be grounded in edge cases. People who frequently take absurdly rare long trips. People who tow boats frequently. People who have immense commutes. These people are rare, and yes, perhaps Evs don't work for them yet, but these people are fringe cases. The only common problem which evs don't have a great answer for yet is people without parking at home and without charging stations at work.
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
My comments were mostly directed towards his assertion that the Leaf was the future. If you had clicked that link it was mostly Leaf owners saying that this guy would be better off with a higher capacity EV for a 60 mile commute, half of which was up hills. The 107 mile estimated range of the Leaf is similarly dishonest to MPG claims; it's under ideal conditions. Elevation changes, bad weather, driving habits, traffic, etc. can cut it by around a quarter according to people that own the car!
The Tesla Model 3 (aside from the price tag that's solidly in the realm of luxury car for many people with long commutes,) is a poor example of a solution that is available today because the thing is backordered for days and Tesla has yet to prove they can scale their operations up without an increase in manufacturing defects that is worse than any other major auto manufacturer. I'm rooting for them and am more than a little bit of an Elon Musk fan, but we need to be realistic about the limitations of the technology as it exists today. Another drawback, as I said above, without massive investment in charging infrastructure they aren't going to take off.
A 60 mile one way commute is an enormously long commute, it's the exact example I gave of a San Francisco to San Jose commute. Only 8% of US commuters drive more than 35 miles one way to work.
All the counterpoint to EVs are great and grubby more awesome all the time seem to be grounded in edge cases. People who frequently take absurdly rare long trips. People who tow boats frequently. People who have immense commutes. These people are rare, and yes, perhaps Evs don't work for them yet, but these people are fringe cases. The only common problem which evs don't have a great answer for yet is people without parking at home and without charging stations at work.
That's a huge problem if you're driving a Leaf under sub-optimal conditions with a commute half that size. You might not get home. 107 miles in perfect track conditions is a totally insufficient range.
Here is another thread. Note the post saying that South San Jose to Fremont is iffy without chargers at both ends. Hills at freeway speeds completely wreck manufacturer estimated ranges.
I reckon in ten years nobody will be selling family vehicles that aren't electric
Volvo are a small output so it's probably easier for them to switch to electric earlier, less costs and a more flexible corporate structure
Smart for them to try to get into electric vehicle production sooner rather than later. If I was an automotive company CEO I'd want a department working on making a commercially effective electric only vehicle full time
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
215 miles is a lot for a commuter but not terribly a lot overall. It puts standard Texas destinations from the Austin area completely out of reach... a trip that costs $25 and 6 hours of driving would cost $100 or more (because you need a hotel) and two days. Until 400+ miles on a charge is easy or 0.5hr charging points become super common, EVs are a niche. A large one, sure, but the freedom of movement unlocked by a gasoline engine is unrivaled.
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
215 miles is a lot for a commuter but not terribly a lot overall. It puts standard Texas destinations from the Austin area completely out of reach... a trip that costs $25 and 6 hours of driving would cost $100 or more (because you need a hotel) and two days. Until 400+ miles on a charge is easy or 0.5hr charging points become super common, EVs are a niche. A large one, sure, but the freedom of movement unlocked by a gasoline engine is unrivaled.
Wouldn't low population density areas be the niche? 81% of the US population lives in Urban areas.
It's not like it has to be an either-or proposition. EVs do not have to cover 100% of every person's needs to become the standard. IC engines will continue to exist for many years, and support for them much longer than that.
It's not like it has to be an either-or proposition. EVs do not have to cover 100% of every person's needs to become the standard. IC engines will continue to exist for many years, and support for them much longer than that.
Most people cannot afford to have a car that costs more than a few thousand dollars for commuting in addition to a car that does everything people think of when they think of a car. Also @jdarksun while that is true it doesn't account for people that commute from one urban area to another (usually because the place with the jobs is unaffordable, because jobs frequently don't last more than a few years so it's hard to plan housing with an ideal commute around them, etc.). That South San Jose to Fremont commute is only around 30 minutes, give or take, but a Leaf might not make it round trip without topping off the battery. It's a super common commute in this area.
Giggles_Funsworth on
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
It's not like it has to be an either-or proposition. EVs do not have to cover 100% of every person's needs to become the standard. IC engines will continue to exist for many years, and support for them much longer than that.
Absolutely. There are still niches in the US where horse-drawn carriages are the primary form of transport, after all.
And when automobiles were first becoming a thing, there were several different variations that were being used. There were the IC engines and diesel engines, but also steam engine cars like the Stanley Steamers and some electric cars (which were briefly more popular than IC), so it's not like we can only handle a single type of car on the roads. We did it before with no problems and can do it again.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
It's mind boggling to me that the range testing for the Leaf was done under conditions where you're likely to have public transportation coverage anyway. City driving only, max of about 60 MPH (so no freeways), average speed of 20 MPH. Y'all need to read some of these threads from the Leaf forums. These people are making huge concessions to make these vehicles work Suggesting you take your time on hills when you need to take the freeway to get to work is hardly useful advice for a commuter, which is something that was actually suggested in one of those threads. Teslas are great but even the budget model is more than twice as much as my sister paid for a brand new Prius C at a year end sale. These technologies need more time and possibly more subsidization in the form of buying incentives and infrastructure to take off.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
It's not like it has to be an either-or proposition. EVs do not have to cover 100% of every person's needs to become the standard. IC engines will continue to exist for many years, and support for them much longer than that.
Absolutely. There are still niches in the US where horse-drawn carriages are the primary form of transport, after all.
And when automobiles were first becoming a thing, there were several different variations that were being used. There were the IC engines and diesel engines, but also steam engine cars like the Stanley Steamers and some electric cars (which were briefly more popular than IC), so it's not like we can only handle a single type of car on the roads. We did it before with no problems and can do it again.
This is a pretty huge false equivalency. Like saying people didn't need telephones and internet back in the day and things were alright. Somebody needs to pony up to invest in more charging stations for EVs to penetrate much more than they have in the Bay Area already.
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
215 miles is a lot for a commuter but not terribly a lot overall. It puts standard Texas destinations from the Austin area completely out of reach... a trip that costs $25 and 6 hours of driving would cost $100 or more (because you need a hotel) and two days. Until 400+ miles on a charge is easy or 0.5hr charging points become super common, EVs are a niche. A large one, sure, but the freedom of movement unlocked by a gasoline engine is unrivaled.
With a model 3 you can drive 400 miles with one 50 minute recharge halfway. Stop for lunch or something. You shouldnt drive 6 hours with no breaks anyway.
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
215 miles is a lot for a commuter but not terribly a lot overall. It puts standard Texas destinations from the Austin area completely out of reach... a trip that costs $25 and 6 hours of driving would cost $100 or more (because you need a hotel) and two days. Until 400+ miles on a charge is easy or 0.5hr charging points become super common, EVs are a niche. A large one, sure, but the freedom of movement unlocked by a gasoline engine is unrivaled.
I dunno, after driving an S for a couple of years I feel like solving the lack of high capacity charging stations would significantly cut down on the estimate. The thing is you don't need to charge to capacity to continue going, and when you're not filling up it's quite a bit faster - with superchargers if your battery is low you can go back up from empty to halfway in about 10-15 minutes, which isn't too much worse than filling up at a gas station. It slows down after that though. Still not ideal for a commute but on it's way.
There's also the possibility of extending or backing up the battery at some point in the future to allow for longer commutes with the penalty of a longer eventual charge if you wanna get back to full. Maybe a possible market if they find success with the Powerwall?
The Bolt, not the Volt. And the Prius EV, not the hybrid one.
My bad. You got a link to that Prius though? AFAIK all the plug-in models still have ICEs and my searches aren't turning up anything. The only all electric car I'm aware of Toyota ever making is the RAV4 EV.
I guess the Prime confused, I thought it was a pure EV but its actually more like the Volt. Still, there are plenty of high quality EV options I could have mentioned and not been wrong. Like the Nissan Leaf.
The Leaf barely has power to make most intercity commutes in the Bay Area because of the hills. I have seen so many of them in the margin of 680 between Livermore and San Jose.
The Nissan Leaf has a range of 107 miles. It has more than enough range for every bay area commute. Other than maybe San Francisco to San Jose for someone who can't charge at work. As a counterpoint, I have never seen a Nissan Leaf or any electrical vehicle on the side of the road on 680 or any other bay area freeway in the entire decade I've lived here.
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
215 miles is a lot for a commuter but not terribly a lot overall. It puts standard Texas destinations from the Austin area completely out of reach... a trip that costs $25 and 6 hours of driving would cost $100 or more (because you need a hotel) and two days. Until 400+ miles on a charge is easy or 0.5hr charging points become super common, EVs are a niche. A large one, sure, but the freedom of movement unlocked by a gasoline engine is unrivaled.
Wouldn't low population density areas be the niche? 81% of the US population lives in Urban areas.
Dallas to Austin is not low-pop and not uncommon at all. Same for Austin to Corpus. NY to Boston... North to South Atlanta and back is questionable with a Leaf. Inter-city travel is frequent, as are road trips and the like.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
Like, I am not a Luddite. I have been driving a hybrid for half a decade and would have been sooner if they'd been within my price range at the time. There's no reason most people shouldn't be driving hybrids at this point now that there's a decent used stock available. But the Leaf is an awful vehicle that is mostly suited for areas where the bus or the train would be a better option for commuting anyway; and the Teslas are too expensive for most people and have supply issues for now. It is straight up over privileged nonsense thinking EVs are a suitable replacement for ICE driven vehicles right now.
Today yeah, but you said it yourself, hybrids were unaffordable until they weren't. Same thing will happen with EVs, it's a question of timeline more than anything.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Today yeah, but you said it yourself, hybrids were unaffordable until they weren't. Same thing will happen with EVs, it's a question of timeline more than anything.
Nope. Different problems. Hybrids use the same infrastructure as any other car. They took off faster in CA because of forward thinking government incentives aimed at pollution and climate change, but they were as disruptive logistically as a new import with limited mechanics with the knowledge to work on them.
EVs, and especially low capacity ones like the Leaf require pretty thorough coverage of chargers, especially superchargers in the Tesla's case which makes road trips a little more possible. I'm inclined to believe this is going to require government intervention. Probably both in the form of regulations requiring a far higher volume of them in new parking areas and homes, as well as subsidization to get them installed in existing structures.
But for real @tbloxham do you often road trip alone? I'm generally switching off with my girlfriend or a buddy for anything longer than a few hours. A half-hour break every few hours would be a pretty huge time-sink traveling to Southern California (which I do probably every few months) or cross country (which I have done a few times ever, probably more in the near future after I move to Florida).
jdarksun while that is true it doesn't account for people that commute from one urban area to another (usually because the place with the jobs is unaffordable, because jobs frequently don't last more than a few years so it's hard to plan housing with an ideal commute around them, etc.). That South San Jose to Fremont commute is only around 30 minutes, give or take, but a Leaf might not make it round trip without topping off the battery. It's a super common commute in this area.
I didn't dig too hard into commuter data, just gave it a SWAG. Most folk live in or around urban areas, so it stands to reason that the majority of vehicle use isn't long distance travel. I agree that it doesn't account for everything.
According to this guy (3/4/16 study, DoT data), of the total number of US commuters (~128mil), 92% commute 35 miles or less. I'm not sure how a Leaf wouldn't work in most of those cases (seems like the 107mi range would be enough, but I haven't dug into real-world results - and I'm not a CA local, so I don't know that commute specifically), but the Telsa 3 has a range of 215 miles. Seems like it should be able to do it without trouble. EVs will get better over time.
Also, man, do you guys not have changing stations like everywhere? It seems like every garage in NoVA has a bank of six to twelve charging spots.
Dallas to Austin is not low-pop and not uncommon at all. Same for Austin to Corpus. NY to Boston... North to South Atlanta and back is questionable with a Leaf. Inter-city travel is frequent, as are road trips and the like.
Sure, but does that account for the majority of vehicle use? According to this guy (data source (the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety and the Urban Institute), Americans drive an average of 29.2 miles per day. Cross referencing against the commuter data above, it seems like that's mostly commute (if the average commute is <= 15 miles one way).
I'm not disputing that people do make trips between suburbs or cities, just that it's not the majority of vehicle use or traffic.
Today yeah, but you said it yourself, hybrids were unaffordable until they weren't. Same thing will happen with EVs, it's a question of timeline more than anything.
Nope. Different problems. Hybrids use the same infrastructure as any other car. They took off faster in CA because of forward thinking government incentives aimed at pollution and climate change, but they were as disruptive logistically as a new import with limited mechanics with the knowledge to work on them.
EVs, and especially low capacity ones like the Leaf require pretty thorough coverage of chargers, especially superchargers in the Tesla's case which makes road trips a little more possible. I'm inclined to believe this is going to require government intervention. Probably both in the form of regulations requiring a far higher volume of them in new parking areas and homes, as well as subsidization to get them installed in existing structures.
But for real @tbloxham do you often road trip alone? I'm generally switching off with my girlfriend or a buddy for anything longer than a few hours. A half-hour break every few hours would be a pretty huge time-sink traveling to Southern California (which I do probably every few months) or cross country (which I have done a few times ever, probably more in the near future after I move to Florida).
I think part of the expectation here is that low-range options with EVs will be around for more than five more years. The big reason car companies were making something with such limited ranges like the Leaf was because bigger batteries were too expensive to make something that would sell. With a thoroughly established demand for them, battery producers are able to increase their manufacturing capacity and bring costs down which in turn will bring Long-Range EVs into the price segment of current-day Short-Range commuter EVs.
jdarksun while that is true it doesn't account for people that commute from one urban area to another (usually because the place with the jobs is unaffordable, because jobs frequently don't last more than a few years so it's hard to plan housing with an ideal commute around them, etc.). That South San Jose to Fremont commute is only around 30 minutes, give or take, but a Leaf might not make it round trip without topping off the battery. It's a super common commute in this area.
I didn't dig too hard into commuter data, just gave it a SWAG. Most folk live in or around urban areas, so it stands to reason that the majority of vehicle use isn't long distance travel. I agree that it doesn't account for everything.
According to this guy (3/4/16 study, DoT data), of the total number of US commuters (~128mil), 92% commute 35 miles or less. I'm not sure how a Leaf wouldn't work in most of those cases (seems like the 107mi range would be enough, but I haven't dug into real-world results - and I'm not a CA local, so I don't know that commute specifically), but the Telsa 3 has a range of 215 miles. Seems like it should be able to do it without trouble. EVs will get better over time.
Also, man, do you guys not have changing stations like everywhere? It seems like every garage in NoVA has a bank of six to twelve charging spots.
Dallas to Austin is not low-pop and not uncommon at all. Same for Austin to Corpus. NY to Boston... North to South Atlanta and back is questionable with a Leaf. Inter-city travel is frequent, as are road trips and the like.
Sure, but does that account for the majority of vehicle use? According to this guy (data source (the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety and the Urban Institute), Americans drive an average of 29.2 miles per day. Cross referencing against the commuter data above, it seems like that's mostly commute (if the average commute is <= 15 miles one way).
I'm not disputing that people do make trips between suburbs or cities, just that it's not the majority of vehicle use or traffic.
that's the wrong metric to look at. I probably drive 30mi/day on average, but I take maybe 5-7 trips of over 300mi per year. Having to cancel those forever, for everyone, would be a dramatic impact.
There are other factors as well. The evacuation of a major city during a hurricane doesn't happen if everyone is using EV only. I can store a thousand miles of travel energy in a corner of my garage if I have an IC engine, and carry it with me when I leave.
Today yeah, but you said it yourself, hybrids were unaffordable until they weren't. Same thing will happen with EVs, it's a question of timeline more than anything.
Nope. Different problems. Hybrids use the same infrastructure as any other car. They took off faster in CA because of forward thinking government incentives aimed at pollution and climate change, but they were as disruptive logistically as a new import with limited mechanics with the knowledge to work on them.
EVs, and especially low capacity ones like the Leaf require pretty thorough coverage of chargers, especially superchargers in the Tesla's case which makes road trips a little more possible. I'm inclined to believe this is going to require government intervention. Probably both in the form of regulations requiring a far higher volume of them in new parking areas and homes, as well as subsidization to get them installed in existing structures.
They can still make the solution work without government intervention if they change the strategy a bit. If they prove the market with the powerwall, I'd be curious to see other areas where that technology could be extended. A portable solution that you could charge at home could be used to extend the life of your car, for example. Or they could work off of Intel's solar car implementation if there's space in the car for a separate cell - maybe doable with the S since most of the front and back of a model S are basically just pretty plastic shielding to make the car look like how a car should.
It's what folks have been speculating for tesla's semi solution, since the current batteries wouldn't make any sense for the commutes a truck driver has to complete. The skeleton of Tesla's vehicles doesn't change much from car to car, and there's a lot of extra space they could use to add on extra batteries until they can fulfill the average commute of a country-wide livery service.
Today yeah, but you said it yourself, hybrids were unaffordable until they weren't. Same thing will happen with EVs, it's a question of timeline more than anything.
Nope. Different problems. Hybrids use the same infrastructure as any other car. They took off faster in CA because of forward thinking government incentives aimed at pollution and climate change, but they were as disruptive logistically as a new import with limited mechanics with the knowledge to work on them.
EVs, and especially low capacity ones like the Leaf require pretty thorough coverage of chargers, especially superchargers in the Tesla's case which makes road trips a little more possible. I'm inclined to believe this is going to require government intervention. Probably both in the form of regulations requiring a far higher volume of them in new parking areas and homes, as well as subsidization to get them installed in existing structures.
They can still make the solution work without government intervention if they change the strategy a bit. If they prove the market with the powerwall, I'd be curious to see other areas where that technology could be extended. A portable solution that you could charge at home could be used to extend the life of your car, for example. Or they could work off of Intel's solar car implementation if there's space in the car for a separate cell - maybe doable with the S since most of the front and back of a model S are basically just pretty plastic shielding to make the car look like how a car should.
It's what folks have been speculating for tesla's semi solution, since the current batteries wouldn't make any sense for the commutes a truck driver has to complete. The skeleton of Tesla's vehicles doesn't change much from car to car, and there's a lot of extra space they could use to add on extra batteries until they can fulfill the average commute of a country-wide livery service.
One of the limitations is that batteries are really heavy, so just adding more of them isn't a solution. Somebody covered this upthread.
Seriously, if someone it going for healthy habits. You should be taking a break about every two hours of driving. So that's time that can go to charging up the battery and it won't matter if 15 isn't enough to fully charge the battery. I mean at a certain point you're either eating, which might be enough time or you're hitting the point where you'd need stop for the night anyways. So EVs are going o be viable when they don't deplete during such a scenario. Sure battery manufacturers will probably shoot for longer storage times because shit happens (Like power outages). There is also the fact that solar panels could be added in a way that allows for gathering power, while driving.
I think it's a bit silly that people are focusing on the rather rare scenario where someone has to drive 6+ hours. All an EV really has to do to be viable is be more affordable than standard gasoline and hybrid vehicles, while being able to easily handle a commute of about 35 miles and be charged up well before the trip home. I don't think anyone envisions EVs instantly phasing out all gasoline and diesel vehicles. Shipping will probably be one of the last areas within the civilian markets where you don't have an electric only fleet. You'll also probably see a model where auto rentals have a fleet of hybrid vehicles for people that have to make a long commute where EVs are going to be iffy or not an option (hence the more affordable, if someone is saving a pretty penny a month on an EV, they won't have issues with having to rent for the yearly family reunion.
I also can't help but feel there is too much of emphasis of looking at this in a vacuum. EVs are getting a huge boost interest wise because we're looking down the barrel of climate change. This pretty much means we're going to see some changes that are going to be advantageous to technology that has lower emissions and disadvantageous for current technologies. This is going to change the cost analysis as well and some of those changes could be a straight up tax to discourage people from buying a gasoline only vehicle before we start seeing straight up bans on the manufacture of new ones. We're also likely to see a push for reigning in all the shitty sprawl, which is going to result in shorter commutes and be more friendly to the idea of mass transit.
Like, I am not a Luddite. I have been driving a hybrid for half a decade and would have been sooner if they'd been within my price range at the time. There's no reason most people shouldn't be driving hybrids at this point now that there's a decent used stock available. But the Leaf is an awful vehicle that is mostly suited for areas where the bus or the train would be a better option for commuting anyway; and the Teslas are too expensive for most people and have supply issues for now. It is straight up over privileged nonsense thinking EVs are a suitable replacement for ICE driven vehicles right now.
I've always lived in small towns with completely inadequate public transit, and most days I would drive <30 miles total. With the exception of long trips elsewhere, it's an ideal niche for a Leaf.
Like, I am not a Luddite. I have been driving a hybrid for half a decade and would have been sooner if they'd been within my price range at the time. There's no reason most people shouldn't be driving hybrids at this point now that there's a decent used stock available. But the Leaf is an awful vehicle that is mostly suited for areas where the bus or the train would be a better option for commuting anyway; and the Teslas are too expensive for most people and have supply issues for now. It is straight up over privileged nonsense thinking EVs are a suitable replacement for ICE driven vehicles right now.
I've always lived in small towns with completely inadequate public transit, and most days I would drive <30 miles total. With the exception of long trips elsewhere, it's an ideal niche for a Leaf.
Out of curiosity, how much of that <30 miles is spent in stop-and-go traffic where your <30 mile commute takes 2 hours (each way)? I know, I know: "regenerative braking." I used to have a hybrid Civic that had that tech. The problem was that it was wholly inadequate for such tasks. When engaged in stop and go situations, the batteries would be almost completely drained after about 30 minutes resulting in a car with gimped power (until they could recharge from normal highway/freeway speeds)...which made navigating some of the hills around Seattle (not even looking at the Bay area) tricky, dangerous, or just plain impossible.
Granted, the tech may have improved in recent years...it's been 12 years since I first bought that car.
EDIT - just noticed that you were talking general use and not commuting. My mistake, but the rest of my post can used for those talking about EVs for commuting purposes. Also, I've been finding myself wondering about getting an EV/hybrid scooter/moped for just putting around town (where my daily driving is around 5-10 miles).
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As Spool said, I don't think anyone is disputing that people don't drive very far on a regular/daily basis but it does happen and I'd be willing to bet the numbers change if the question is do you ever drive more than x miles.
So the solution is to just buy another car that can make it?
Take twice as long or more to deal with charging?
Rent an ICE or hybrid for the trip?
I think EVs will continue to gain marketshare (hopefully with the assistance of subsidies) and the tech will improve steadily but its really off putting to have a conversation when one side is "EVs are great and its your life that's the actual problem"
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or maybe that solar roadways thing
*attempts to hide literally every bit of actually data about either of those things*
Whereas the solar roadways are pants-on-head stupid based on basic logic.
Not really considering I've driven mine to Montana. They are there but their market penetration in CA is pretty ridiculous by comparison. I'm not sure how sales numbers were in more recent years but according to this in 2009 we had around 5x the sales of the next state (NY). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States I think it's largely a result of government incentives more than anything else, and EVs are going to need the same sort of buy in from government to penetrate.
Talking to a friend with a RAV4 EV in Silicon Valley charging station availability is a largeish issue. He complained more than a couple times about people not unplugging in a timely fashion because there aren't enough to go around. And as many hybrids as there are seeing an EV is like seeing a Corvette. Occasionally, certainly more than Lamborghinis; but they aren't part of the background.
Cool. Here is a forum of Leaf owners disagreeing with you. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=11318
Do you own an EV because your outlook seems wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality. I would fucking love for this not to be the case because fossil fuels blow but EVs aren't ready for everyone, or even most people; yet.
According to USAToday and Kelley Blue Book the average price of a new car in the US today is $33,560. Tesla Model 3s start at $35,000 with a range of 215 miles per charge. If you need more than 215 miles per charge, EVs aren't for you. Otherwise, not far to go before you can easily say that EVs are ready for most people. There's plenty of argument to be made on behalf of other EVs with lower range as well. Especially since the national average daily commute is 25.5 minutes according to Census data.
Calling tbloxham's outlook wildly optimistic and irresponsibly divorced from reality seems a bit much to me.
If my napkin estimates are correct (they probably aren't) Appalachia will be ideal coffee country.
Yo this would totally work though. You collect solar energy when it is sunny before the snow comes, store it in a battery, use it to melt the snow so you can collect more solar energy.
Coal miner country? Perfect
Only in areas with more sun than not.
In places with maybe 4 hours of daylight, most of it cloudy (if not snowing), and with most nights giving you more snow, probably would not work.
Look dude I am engineering for Earth, not frozen hellscapes.
There is a kit you can buy to convert your car pre 85 to electric you need to know what transmission you have so you can have an adapter plate for the new electric engine
The batteries you get are only good for about 60 miles you can get more but it only goes up by 20 each set
You can go crazy with solar here the cloudless days are numerous.
Telephone canyon between Cheyenne Wy and Laramie Wy has constant 45M+ winds so you would need a better wind generator then we have as there is little ease of repair there when it gusts to 200+
It doesn't take much to understand it's there we just lack the tech to really take advantage fully of it because of a lack of interest and investment
Average is a terrible estimate for what is popular or affordable, as is assuming people with long enough commutes to require a car are buying new. The best selling cars in America are mostly far below that average, new. http://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-cars-trucks-vehicle-america-2016-2017-1/
My comments were mostly directed towards his assertion that the Leaf was the future. If you had clicked that link it was mostly Leaf owners saying that this guy would be better off with a higher capacity EV for a 60 mile commute, half of which was up hills. The 107 mile estimated range of the Leaf is similarly dishonest to MPG claims; it's under ideal conditions. Elevation changes, bad weather, driving habits, traffic, etc. can cut it by around a quarter according to people that own the car!
The Tesla Model 3 (aside from the price tag that's solidly in the realm of luxury car for many people with long commutes,) is a poor example of a solution that is available today because the thing is backordered for days and Tesla has yet to prove they can scale their operations up without an increase in manufacturing defects that is worse than any other major auto manufacturer. I'm rooting for them and am more than a little bit of an Elon Musk fan, but we need to be realistic about the limitations of the technology as it exists today. Another drawback, as I said above, without massive investment in charging infrastructure they aren't going to take off.
A 60 mile one way commute is an enormously long commute, it's the exact example I gave of a San Francisco to San Jose commute. Only 8% of US commuters drive more than 35 miles one way to work.
All the counterpoint to EVs are great and grubby more awesome all the time seem to be grounded in edge cases. People who frequently take absurdly rare long trips. People who tow boats frequently. People who have immense commutes. These people are rare, and yes, perhaps Evs don't work for them yet, but these people are fringe cases. The only common problem which evs don't have a great answer for yet is people without parking at home and without charging stations at work.
That's a huge problem if you're driving a Leaf under sub-optimal conditions with a commute half that size. You might not get home. 107 miles in perfect track conditions is a totally insufficient range.
EDIT: Also the Bay Area has some of the longest commutes because of the housing issues so a disproportionate amount of those long commutes are going to be happening there. https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2013/03/05/san-francisco-bay-area-nations-capital-for-megacommuting/
Here is another thread. Note the post saying that South San Jose to Fremont is iffy without chargers at both ends. Hills at freeway speeds completely wreck manufacturer estimated ranges.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10994
Volvo are a small output so it's probably easier for them to switch to electric earlier, less costs and a more flexible corporate structure
Smart for them to try to get into electric vehicle production sooner rather than later. If I was an automotive company CEO I'd want a department working on making a commercially effective electric only vehicle full time
215 miles is a lot for a commuter but not terribly a lot overall. It puts standard Texas destinations from the Austin area completely out of reach... a trip that costs $25 and 6 hours of driving would cost $100 or more (because you need a hotel) and two days. Until 400+ miles on a charge is easy or 0.5hr charging points become super common, EVs are a niche. A large one, sure, but the freedom of movement unlocked by a gasoline engine is unrivaled.
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Most people cannot afford to have a car that costs more than a few thousand dollars for commuting in addition to a car that does everything people think of when they think of a car. Also @jdarksun while that is true it doesn't account for people that commute from one urban area to another (usually because the place with the jobs is unaffordable, because jobs frequently don't last more than a few years so it's hard to plan housing with an ideal commute around them, etc.). That South San Jose to Fremont commute is only around 30 minutes, give or take, but a Leaf might not make it round trip without topping off the battery. It's a super common commute in this area.
Absolutely. There are still niches in the US where horse-drawn carriages are the primary form of transport, after all.
And when automobiles were first becoming a thing, there were several different variations that were being used. There were the IC engines and diesel engines, but also steam engine cars like the Stanley Steamers and some electric cars (which were briefly more popular than IC), so it's not like we can only handle a single type of car on the roads. We did it before with no problems and can do it again.
This is a pretty huge false equivalency. Like saying people didn't need telephones and internet back in the day and things were alright. Somebody needs to pony up to invest in more charging stations for EVs to penetrate much more than they have in the Bay Area already.
With a model 3 you can drive 400 miles with one 50 minute recharge halfway. Stop for lunch or something. You shouldnt drive 6 hours with no breaks anyway.
I dunno, after driving an S for a couple of years I feel like solving the lack of high capacity charging stations would significantly cut down on the estimate. The thing is you don't need to charge to capacity to continue going, and when you're not filling up it's quite a bit faster - with superchargers if your battery is low you can go back up from empty to halfway in about 10-15 minutes, which isn't too much worse than filling up at a gas station. It slows down after that though. Still not ideal for a commute but on it's way.
There's also the possibility of extending or backing up the battery at some point in the future to allow for longer commutes with the penalty of a longer eventual charge if you wanna get back to full. Maybe a possible market if they find success with the Powerwall?
Dallas to Austin is not low-pop and not uncommon at all. Same for Austin to Corpus. NY to Boston... North to South Atlanta and back is questionable with a Leaf. Inter-city travel is frequent, as are road trips and the like.
Nope. Different problems. Hybrids use the same infrastructure as any other car. They took off faster in CA because of forward thinking government incentives aimed at pollution and climate change, but they were as disruptive logistically as a new import with limited mechanics with the knowledge to work on them.
EVs, and especially low capacity ones like the Leaf require pretty thorough coverage of chargers, especially superchargers in the Tesla's case which makes road trips a little more possible. I'm inclined to believe this is going to require government intervention. Probably both in the form of regulations requiring a far higher volume of them in new parking areas and homes, as well as subsidization to get them installed in existing structures.
But for real @tbloxham do you often road trip alone? I'm generally switching off with my girlfriend or a buddy for anything longer than a few hours. A half-hour break every few hours would be a pretty huge time-sink traveling to Southern California (which I do probably every few months) or cross country (which I have done a few times ever, probably more in the near future after I move to Florida).
According to this guy (3/4/16 study, DoT data), of the total number of US commuters (~128mil), 92% commute 35 miles or less. I'm not sure how a Leaf wouldn't work in most of those cases (seems like the 107mi range would be enough, but I haven't dug into real-world results - and I'm not a CA local, so I don't know that commute specifically), but the Telsa 3 has a range of 215 miles. Seems like it should be able to do it without trouble. EVs will get better over time.
Also, man, do you guys not have changing stations like everywhere? It seems like every garage in NoVA has a bank of six to twelve charging spots.
Sure, but does that account for the majority of vehicle use? According to this guy (data source (the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety and the Urban Institute), Americans drive an average of 29.2 miles per day. Cross referencing against the commuter data above, it seems like that's mostly commute (if the average commute is <= 15 miles one way).
I'm not disputing that people do make trips between suburbs or cities, just that it's not the majority of vehicle use or traffic.
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I think part of the expectation here is that low-range options with EVs will be around for more than five more years. The big reason car companies were making something with such limited ranges like the Leaf was because bigger batteries were too expensive to make something that would sell. With a thoroughly established demand for them, battery producers are able to increase their manufacturing capacity and bring costs down which in turn will bring Long-Range EVs into the price segment of current-day Short-Range commuter EVs.
that's the wrong metric to look at. I probably drive 30mi/day on average, but I take maybe 5-7 trips of over 300mi per year. Having to cancel those forever, for everyone, would be a dramatic impact.
There are other factors as well. The evacuation of a major city during a hurricane doesn't happen if everyone is using EV only. I can store a thousand miles of travel energy in a corner of my garage if I have an IC engine, and carry it with me when I leave.
They can still make the solution work without government intervention if they change the strategy a bit. If they prove the market with the powerwall, I'd be curious to see other areas where that technology could be extended. A portable solution that you could charge at home could be used to extend the life of your car, for example. Or they could work off of Intel's solar car implementation if there's space in the car for a separate cell - maybe doable with the S since most of the front and back of a model S are basically just pretty plastic shielding to make the car look like how a car should.
It's what folks have been speculating for tesla's semi solution, since the current batteries wouldn't make any sense for the commutes a truck driver has to complete. The skeleton of Tesla's vehicles doesn't change much from car to car, and there's a lot of extra space they could use to add on extra batteries until they can fulfill the average commute of a country-wide livery service.
One of the limitations is that batteries are really heavy, so just adding more of them isn't a solution. Somebody covered this upthread.
I think it's a bit silly that people are focusing on the rather rare scenario where someone has to drive 6+ hours. All an EV really has to do to be viable is be more affordable than standard gasoline and hybrid vehicles, while being able to easily handle a commute of about 35 miles and be charged up well before the trip home. I don't think anyone envisions EVs instantly phasing out all gasoline and diesel vehicles. Shipping will probably be one of the last areas within the civilian markets where you don't have an electric only fleet. You'll also probably see a model where auto rentals have a fleet of hybrid vehicles for people that have to make a long commute where EVs are going to be iffy or not an option (hence the more affordable, if someone is saving a pretty penny a month on an EV, they won't have issues with having to rent for the yearly family reunion.
I also can't help but feel there is too much of emphasis of looking at this in a vacuum. EVs are getting a huge boost interest wise because we're looking down the barrel of climate change. This pretty much means we're going to see some changes that are going to be advantageous to technology that has lower emissions and disadvantageous for current technologies. This is going to change the cost analysis as well and some of those changes could be a straight up tax to discourage people from buying a gasoline only vehicle before we start seeing straight up bans on the manufacture of new ones. We're also likely to see a push for reigning in all the shitty sprawl, which is going to result in shorter commutes and be more friendly to the idea of mass transit.
I've always lived in small towns with completely inadequate public transit, and most days I would drive <30 miles total. With the exception of long trips elsewhere, it's an ideal niche for a Leaf.
Out of curiosity, how much of that <30 miles is spent in stop-and-go traffic where your <30 mile commute takes 2 hours (each way)? I know, I know: "regenerative braking." I used to have a hybrid Civic that had that tech. The problem was that it was wholly inadequate for such tasks. When engaged in stop and go situations, the batteries would be almost completely drained after about 30 minutes resulting in a car with gimped power (until they could recharge from normal highway/freeway speeds)...which made navigating some of the hills around Seattle (not even looking at the Bay area) tricky, dangerous, or just plain impossible.
Granted, the tech may have improved in recent years...it's been 12 years since I first bought that car.
EDIT - just noticed that you were talking general use and not commuting. My mistake, but the rest of my post can used for those talking about EVs for commuting purposes. Also, I've been finding myself wondering about getting an EV/hybrid scooter/moped for just putting around town (where my daily driving is around 5-10 miles).
So the solution is to just buy another car that can make it?
Take twice as long or more to deal with charging?
Rent an ICE or hybrid for the trip?
I think EVs will continue to gain marketshare (hopefully with the assistance of subsidies) and the tech will improve steadily but its really off putting to have a conversation when one side is "EVs are great and its your life that's the actual problem"