Great explanation by Ben Brode on order of operations. Turns out that everything is completely consistent, but "minion on board" and "minion has been played" are two different triggers. Great read for anyone who's ever said "why does it resolve like that?!"
I copied this warrior decklist from someone in this thread, I don't remember who. But thank you, it's much better than the one from Reynad I tried a while ago, this deck got me from rank 13 to rank 8 with no losses. Then I lost at rank 8 five stars
Probably not exactly the same list, I didn't have 2 arcane golems when I made it, I'll probably craft a 2nd one.
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lwt1973King of ThievesSyndicationRegistered Userregular
Oh look, mech mage drops turn one Mech Warper. Turn two drops Mech Warper, Chugga, Annoy.
"He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
If anyone wants to be added to the OP observer list, quote now or forever hold their peace.
I would, but I forget my battle tag and I'm at work. Will PM you later. I mostly run Arena and do fairly well (close to averaging 7 wins again, but I did have disastrous 0 win priest arena this weekend)
Also, I played a Mage in arena as a hunter at 6 wins last night. The mage had a selection of fairly terrible cards like target dummy, snapjaw, etc. The mage had some decent removal and a few secrets, but the whole time I was thinking that this deck this deck was just terrible. The mage was also playing super aggressively, using removal when he could have easily traded. Then he drops Dr. Boom. This mage and his/her terrible deck and playstyle got to 6 wins entirely on the back of Dr. Boom. I didn't see their whole deck, but this is my only conclusion. I don't think any other legendary could do that.
I copied this warrior decklist from someone in this thread, I don't remember who. But thank you, it's much better than the one from Reynad I tried a while ago, this deck got me from rank 13 to rank 8 with no losses. Then I lost at rank 8 five stars
Probably not exactly the same list, I didn't have 2 arcane golems when I made it, I'll probably craft a 2nd one.
That's a lot of weapons.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
If you are a hunter
Who is playing a paladin
And you get Lord Jaraxxus from Sneed's
And you return Lord Jaraxxus to your hand
And through Lorewalker Cho the paladin gets a snipe from you
And the paladin also draws and plays a repentance at the same time
You shouldn't play Lord Jaraxxus as the very next minion.
...I don't think this is a scenario that will ever come up in a real game, any more then the 7 prophet valen arcane missile one would.
Was just abke to pull off a flawless molten giant/duplicate combo against a lock. Everything went according to plan...got the giant from a turn 2 portal, played duplicate on 3. Allowed myself to get beaten down just enough and dropped the giant while flamestriking his sizable board away. He kills it, getting me 2 more giants... And Im able to drop the two duplicated giants and a healbot the next turn, stomping him.
Sadly I dont own any giants, because it seems like a duplicate/echoes giant deck would be a ton of fun.
yes, yes it is
(imagine a picture here of a board full of molten giants and a mage with ice block on, I couldn't find my old screenshots)
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Unless you're paladin, warlock, a good rogue, freeze mage, etc.
Druid is prob the one class that has the worst chance of handling it since almost no one runs poison seeds / starfall.
Whenever I run priest every druid seems to run Poison seeds.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
If you are a hunter
Who is playing a paladin
And you get Lord Jaraxxus from Sneed's
And you return Lord Jaraxxus to your hand
And through Lorewalker Cho the paladin gets a snipe from you
And the paladin also draws and plays a repentance at the same time
You shouldn't play Lord Jaraxxus as the very next minion.
This is why I love this game. It has just enough complexity that shit like this can happen and be fun and surprising, but not SO much that it's confusing on a regular basis. And all rules are enforced via computer, so you don't have to spend any time arguing about how something like this should actually work, or even know all the rules to be able to play it and enjoy it.
If anyone wants to be added to the OP observer list, quote now or forever hold their peace.
EscapeGoat#1913. I swear I've directly PMed you about this before, but whatevs :P
You may have, but you gotta understand I get literally millions of PMs every day.*
*this sentence may not contain facts.
He got mine, should I feel important?
I've actually been having a good deal of fun playing ranked as an aggro rogue the last few days. It's not pure aggro like face hunter, more of a deck that floods and controls the board with early value minions and card-draw minions, then finish them off with charge minions and spells like oil and eviscerate. I forget where I saw the original deck list, but since so many people are expecting the slower oil rogue these days it works fairly well, at least as high as rank 8.
So yes, it is frustrating when you play against a class designed to break the systems of the game.
If that's your complaint you better also be dogging the Handlock players as well. That's the deck that most overtly breaks how the game is "supposed" to play out.
Not even remotely close to true. Handlock cares about board presence and board control, which is how the devs envision the game being played out. All those decks that just don't interact with the opponent, the OTK decks or all face decks etc, are the ones that have violated how they view the game is 'supposed' to play out and are the ones that have gotten nerfed. The warlock cards that have been nerfed are ones used by zoolock (flame imp and soulfire)
Handlock isn't and wasn't the only one that uses life totals to play with giants. It's not even a particularly effective deck right now. The game gets more and more 'bursty' it seems to me. Alex and Jaraxxus simply aren't viable against certain decks who can punch out 15 damage from a clear board easily. Giants gets wrecked by a lot of decks out there.
So yes, it is frustrating when you play against a class designed to break the systems of the game.
If that's your complaint you better also be dogging the Handlock players as well. That's the deck that most overtly breaks how the game is "supposed" to play out.
Not even remotely close to true. Handlock cares about board presence and board control, which is how the devs envision the game being played out. All those decks that just don't interact with the opponent, the OTK decks or all face decks etc, are the ones that have violated how they view the game is 'supposed' to play out and are the ones that have gotten nerfed. The warlock cards that have been nerfed are ones used by zoolock (flame imp and soulfire)
Handlock isn't and wasn't the only one that uses life totals to play with giants. It's not even a particularly effective deck right now. The game gets more and more 'bursty' it seems to me. Alex and Jaraxxus simply aren't viable against certain decks who can punch out 15 damage from a clear board easily. Giants gets wrecked by a lot of decks out there.
Handlock's main shtick is horribly breaking the game's curve by dropping either 4/10 or an 8/8 on turn 4, neither of which would normally be possible outside of alarm-o-bot/ancestor's call/ramp shenanigans. Also Shadowflame + Giants is way too effective board clear for way too cheap--if Handlock had to run Twisting Nether for that purpose I'd be fine, but the fact they can nuke your board for 8 for between like 4-8 mana (depending if you're using molten or mountain) without touching their side is silly. Handlock is about abusing corner-case mechanics that should normally be incidental (like a Mage trying to get into Molten range for echo shenanigans, which is not at all in their control unless they fireball themselves) by taking advantage of the Warlock hero power. It is absolutely against how the game should flow, especially with how unintuitive it is to play/play against (obviously until you learn to deal with it).
Not saying Handlock is a problem, per say, but it is definitely not the sort of deck I'd expect from a game like this, coming in blind.
New thing I just found out: If you bomb lobber when the mage has a mirror entity and the bomb lobber kills a sylvanas and gets stolen, the mirror entity does not proc. Huh.
So yes, it is frustrating when you play against a class designed to break the systems of the game.
If that's your complaint you better also be dogging the Handlock players as well. That's the deck that most overtly breaks how the game is "supposed" to play out.
Not even remotely close to true. Handlock cares about board presence and board control, which is how the devs envision the game being played out. All those decks that just don't interact with the opponent, the OTK decks or all face decks etc, are the ones that have violated how they view the game is 'supposed' to play out and are the ones that have gotten nerfed. The warlock cards that have been nerfed are ones used by zoolock (flame imp and soulfire)
Handlock isn't and wasn't the only one that uses life totals to play with giants. It's not even a particularly effective deck right now. The game gets more and more 'bursty' it seems to me. Alex and Jaraxxus simply aren't viable against certain decks who can punch out 15 damage from a clear board easily. Giants gets wrecked by a lot of decks out there.
Handlock's main shtick is horribly breaking the game's curve by dropping either 4/10 or an 8/8 on turn 4, neither of which would normally be possible outside of alarm-o-bot/ancestor's call/ramp shenanigans. Also Shadowflame + Giants is way too effective board clear for way too cheap--if Handlock had to run Twisting Nether for that purpose I'd be fine, but the fact they can nuke your board for 8 for between like 4-8 mana (depending if you're using molten or mountain) without touching their side is silly. Handlock is about abusing corner-case mechanics that should normally be incidental (like a Mage trying to get into Molten range for echo shenanigans, which is not at all in their control unless they fireball themselves) by taking advantage of the Warlock hero power. It is absolutely against how the game should flow, especially with how unintuitive it is to play/play against (obviously until you learn to deal with it).
Not saying Handlock is a problem, per say, but it is definitely not the sort of deck I'd expect from a game like this, coming in blind.
A deck that uses minions that blizzard designed in the way blizzard designed for them to be used is not breaking the game.
All the giants let you drop an 8/8 body on the board earlier than you normally would. There is a whole class of minions that lets you use the corner cases to do interesting things with the games curve. Obviously blizzard intended for these cards to be used. Any deck can throw a fel reaver out as an 8/8 on turn 5 or turn 4 with coin. Druids can throw out a turn 7 mana creature on turn 5 with innervate, turn 4 with coin. Mages can throw a 6 mana creature out on turn 3 with unstable portal. Warlocks can pull out jaraxxus or malganis on turn 4 with a void caller. If your deck can't handle these things, well, I think you're going to have trouble.
The board clear that is disgustingly effective, IMO, is rogues sharpsword oil + blade flurry. It's like shadowflame except you don't need a minion and it damages the enemy hero as well!
I grant you it's not a particularly intuitive deck to play against, and it's a very difficult one to play, but I find it rewarding to play against them and beat them by tracking their life totals and knowing the molten + taunt break points.
With everyone packing silences and BGH's for doctor boom, it's not even a particularly scary deck any more. A shaman will earth shock your drakes, hex your mountains and bgh your moltens. He's got as many answers as you do big bodies.
If anyone wants to be added to the OP observer list, quote now or forever hold their peace.
Quoting!
But do I have to add them to my F list?
Because that sucks... I seem to have to scan my list every other week and remove people who've been away for a long time with all the new peeps incoming. >.<'
PA Blizz family is pretty big. ^^'
You're already on the list goofy! OK, everyone who mentioned it has been added. Now where are my bad day pics?!
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
So yes, it is frustrating when you play against a class designed to break the systems of the game.
If that's your complaint you better also be dogging the Handlock players as well. That's the deck that most overtly breaks how the game is "supposed" to play out.
Not even remotely close to true. Handlock cares about board presence and board control, which is how the devs envision the game being played out. All those decks that just don't interact with the opponent, the OTK decks or all face decks etc, are the ones that have violated how they view the game is 'supposed' to play out and are the ones that have gotten nerfed. The warlock cards that have been nerfed are ones used by zoolock (flame imp and soulfire)
Handlock isn't and wasn't the only one that uses life totals to play with giants. It's not even a particularly effective deck right now. The game gets more and more 'bursty' it seems to me. Alex and Jaraxxus simply aren't viable against certain decks who can punch out 15 damage from a clear board easily. Giants gets wrecked by a lot of decks out there.
Handlock's main shtick is horribly breaking the game's curve by dropping either 4/10 or an 8/8 on turn 4, neither of which would normally be possible outside of alarm-o-bot/ancestor's call/ramp shenanigans. Also Shadowflame + Giants is way too effective board clear for way too cheap--if Handlock had to run Twisting Nether for that purpose I'd be fine, but the fact they can nuke your board for 8 for between like 4-8 mana (depending if you're using molten or mountain) without touching their side is silly. Handlock is about abusing corner-case mechanics that should normally be incidental (like a Mage trying to get into Molten range for echo shenanigans, which is not at all in their control unless they fireball themselves) by taking advantage of the Warlock hero power. It is absolutely against how the game should flow, especially with how unintuitive it is to play/play against (obviously until you learn to deal with it).
Not saying Handlock is a problem, per say, but it is definitely not the sort of deck I'd expect from a game like this, coming in blind.
I played against a handlock last night who was running twisting nether. Took me by surprise after I made a pretty big board. He was also running sense demons where his only demon was voidcaller and malganis so I'm not so sure it was a great deck. But I can see how that nether steals wins for him, since he was at rank 3 or 4 (I forget).
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
So I went back to a really old 0-2 mage arena. My first win comes from Faceless enemy unstable portaled King Krush->Cone of Cold his->Punch him down to 3. He plays a secret. I kezan it from him, and it was indeed ice block. GG, mate.
handlock is strong, but it's also interesting to play against. You don't get the thing against handlock that you get against aggro where you get a bad-ish draw and they get perfect curve and the game's just over by turn four. Maybe you lose to handlock's gimmick but at least you had some time to try and deal with it.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The most interesting part of handlock is the mirror. Once both sides have played their Mountains, the game becomes never hitting each other and trying to build a board that can kill them in one turn.
I think handlock vs any control match up is usually interesting and good for the strategic aspect of the game simply because, by its very nature, you often have a lot of choice of reasonable plays, so the skill element is greater. For midrange decks, not wanting to get the lock into molten giant range (unless you're paladin with equality consecrate gg), but also needing to kill them fast enough before they can stabilise and Jaraxxus safely is also a really tough strategic dilemma, where you often have to think about mana cost of molten+ sunfury or molten + argus/shadowflame.
Honestly, I would play handlock all the time if the ladder was a bit more friendly to such a slow deck.
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
I think you can easily tune handlock to be a good matchup against aggressive decks, but that takes away a lot of your power against control. i.e. You cut some legendaries (sylv, boom, rag, bk if you run them) and run only one siphon and one mountain. That leaves slots for zombie chow, double far seer and double heal bot on top of whatever removal you pack.
Or maybe one of the demon/handlock mashups, I'm not sure what they cut, but that is always awkward because few aggro decks have a good answer for a free malganis.
4) severely underestimating how much damage a Whirling Zip o Matic can do if left alive.
I've learned to never ever let a windfury minion live, with the sole exception of when you are doing lethal damage RIGHT NOW instead of killing it.
"oh, that flying machine only has one power, don't need to kill that!" becomes "Oh look he had PW:S and Inner fire in his hand and I just took 12 damage"
Posts
Great explanation by Ben Brode on order of operations. Turns out that everything is completely consistent, but "minion on board" and "minion has been played" are two different triggers. Great read for anyone who's ever said "why does it resolve like that?!"
Probably not exactly the same list, I didn't have 2 arcane golems when I made it, I'll probably craft a 2nd one.
I would, but I forget my battle tag and I'm at work. Will PM you later. I mostly run Arena and do fairly well (close to averaging 7 wins again, but I did have disastrous 0 win priest arena this weekend)
Also, I played a Mage in arena as a hunter at 6 wins last night. The mage had a selection of fairly terrible cards like target dummy, snapjaw, etc. The mage had some decent removal and a few secrets, but the whole time I was thinking that this deck this deck was just terrible. The mage was also playing super aggressively, using removal when he could have easily traded. Then he drops Dr. Boom. This mage and his/her terrible deck and playstyle got to 6 wins entirely on the back of Dr. Boom. I didn't see their whole deck, but this is my only conclusion. I don't think any other legendary could do that.
That's a lot of weapons.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
So... Let me get this straight:
If you are a hunter
Who is playing a paladin
And you get Lord Jaraxxus from Sneed's
And you return Lord Jaraxxus to your hand
And through Lorewalker Cho the paladin gets a snipe from you
And the paladin also draws and plays a repentance at the same time
You shouldn't play Lord Jaraxxus as the very next minion.
...I don't think this is a scenario that will ever come up in a real game, any more then the 7 prophet valen arcane missile one would.
e- though it's definitely amusing!
yes, yes it is
(imagine a picture here of a board full of molten giants and a mage with ice block on, I couldn't find my old screenshots)
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Unless you're paladin, warlock, a good rogue, freeze mage, etc.
Druid is prob the one class that has the worst chance of handling it since almost no one runs poison seeds / starfall.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Whenever I run priest every druid seems to run Poison seeds.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Teriferin#1625
EscapeGoat#1913. I swear I've directly PMed you about this before, but whatevs :P
You may have, but you gotta understand I get literally millions of PMs every day.*
*this sentence may not contain facts.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
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You can always just ask first if they're not on the list.
This is why I love this game. It has just enough complexity that shit like this can happen and be fun and surprising, but not SO much that it's confusing on a regular basis. And all rules are enforced via computer, so you don't have to spend any time arguing about how something like this should actually work, or even know all the rules to be able to play it and enjoy it.
Fucking awesome.
He got mine, should I feel important?
I've actually been having a good deal of fun playing ranked as an aggro rogue the last few days. It's not pure aggro like face hunter, more of a deck that floods and controls the board with early value minions and card-draw minions, then finish them off with charge minions and spells like oil and eviscerate. I forget where I saw the original deck list, but since so many people are expecting the slower oil rogue these days it works fairly well, at least as high as rank 8.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
CanisUrsa#1339
(So close to 1337, so far)
Not even remotely close to true. Handlock cares about board presence and board control, which is how the devs envision the game being played out. All those decks that just don't interact with the opponent, the OTK decks or all face decks etc, are the ones that have violated how they view the game is 'supposed' to play out and are the ones that have gotten nerfed. The warlock cards that have been nerfed are ones used by zoolock (flame imp and soulfire)
Handlock isn't and wasn't the only one that uses life totals to play with giants. It's not even a particularly effective deck right now. The game gets more and more 'bursty' it seems to me. Alex and Jaraxxus simply aren't viable against certain decks who can punch out 15 damage from a clear board easily. Giants gets wrecked by a lot of decks out there.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
Handlock's main shtick is horribly breaking the game's curve by dropping either 4/10 or an 8/8 on turn 4, neither of which would normally be possible outside of alarm-o-bot/ancestor's call/ramp shenanigans. Also Shadowflame + Giants is way too effective board clear for way too cheap--if Handlock had to run Twisting Nether for that purpose I'd be fine, but the fact they can nuke your board for 8 for between like 4-8 mana (depending if you're using molten or mountain) without touching their side is silly. Handlock is about abusing corner-case mechanics that should normally be incidental (like a Mage trying to get into Molten range for echo shenanigans, which is not at all in their control unless they fireball themselves) by taking advantage of the Warlock hero power. It is absolutely against how the game should flow, especially with how unintuitive it is to play/play against (obviously until you learn to deal with it).
Not saying Handlock is a problem, per say, but it is definitely not the sort of deck I'd expect from a game like this, coming in blind.
A deck that uses minions that blizzard designed in the way blizzard designed for them to be used is not breaking the game.
All the giants let you drop an 8/8 body on the board earlier than you normally would. There is a whole class of minions that lets you use the corner cases to do interesting things with the games curve. Obviously blizzard intended for these cards to be used. Any deck can throw a fel reaver out as an 8/8 on turn 5 or turn 4 with coin. Druids can throw out a turn 7 mana creature on turn 5 with innervate, turn 4 with coin. Mages can throw a 6 mana creature out on turn 3 with unstable portal. Warlocks can pull out jaraxxus or malganis on turn 4 with a void caller. If your deck can't handle these things, well, I think you're going to have trouble.
The board clear that is disgustingly effective, IMO, is rogues sharpsword oil + blade flurry. It's like shadowflame except you don't need a minion and it damages the enemy hero as well!
I grant you it's not a particularly intuitive deck to play against, and it's a very difficult one to play, but I find it rewarding to play against them and beat them by tracking their life totals and knowing the molten + taunt break points.
With everyone packing silences and BGH's for doctor boom, it's not even a particularly scary deck any more. A shaman will earth shock your drakes, hex your mountains and bgh your moltens. He's got as many answers as you do big bodies.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
You're already on the list goofy! OK, everyone who mentioned it has been added. Now where are my bad day pics?!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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I played against a handlock last night who was running twisting nether. Took me by surprise after I made a pretty big board. He was also running sense demons where his only demon was voidcaller and malganis so I'm not so sure it was a great deck. But I can see how that nether steals wins for him, since he was at rank 3 or 4 (I forget).
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
he didn't see the extent of my triumph though, because he conceded when I played tirion
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Honestly, I would play handlock all the time if the ladder was a bit more friendly to such a slow deck.
Or maybe one of the demon/handlock mashups, I'm not sure what they cut, but that is always awkward because few aggro decks have a good answer for a free malganis.
1) getting 2 hits out of Leeroy Jenkins by clearing the entire Hunter board with my last Death's Bite hit.
2) beating the Paladin by top decking Leeroy + my last Arcanite Reaper charge AFTER he top decked Guardian of Kings and "well played" me.
3) owling a sludge belcher and double heroic striking for 13 with my Arcanite Reaper.
4) severely underestimating how much damage a Whirling Zip o Matic can do if left alive.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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I've learned to never ever let a windfury minion live, with the sole exception of when you are doing lethal damage RIGHT NOW instead of killing it.
"oh, that flying machine only has one power, don't need to kill that!" becomes "Oh look he had PW:S and Inner fire in his hand and I just took 12 damage"
Shortly thereafter, I was completely encrusted in salt.
If only Kel had lived. Sorry, concede.
Be sure to pound on your chest and yell, "THIS. IS. A. HOMEBOY"
Also play MOP- Ante Up on repeat.