My uncle goes in for surgery next week to remove a load of blood clots from his lungs. As my mum, his sister, is a biology teacher, I can expect plenty of grisly details - I'm used to saying "no" quickly when offers to show me various scars and infection pictures are given.
Someone in my family's Facebook thread pointed out that they're all clearly posed for this picture and not just randomly caught by the photographer, so it is likely the photo was taken for publicity in a Northern newspaper by a GAR photographer or a newspaper photographer.
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
There are no candid pics from 1864. Exposure time for ferrotypes is like 5-10 seconds or something. If anyone had been moving slightly it would have spoiled the shot, so all photos had to be carefully posed.
It's weird, after two decades of mental, emotional, and mid level physical abuse, my parents have made a 180 in attitude. As soon as I moved out, there was 'You need anything Muzz? Give us a call, we're behind you no matter what." Instead of "We're so disappointed in you, Muzz, you're a fat, neurotic loser who's a disgrace to your family name. Also, any good you will do will be credited us, because of our good parenting." I mean, I wasn't the angel kid, but my worst tendencies as a teen was failing classes because I didn't do homework or projects. Not drugs, not sleeping around, no petty crimes. It didn't help that not only did I have to compete against an much older step-sibling (Muzz, at your age, your sister was a grade ahead, and was the most popular kid at school), an autistic brother (No Muzz, we can't help you fundraise for your class trip, we're too busy fundraising for his special ed. class trip), and a adorable nephew (Oh my god, our grandchild is so cute, we're going to shower him with toys, money, and trips. Hopefully he won't turn out to be a good for nothing sack of shit like his aunt)
Oddly, even ten years, I still have issues with my parents. I'm thirty years old, pregnant, and I'm freaking out like a teen about what my parents will think even though financially, I'm in great shape. Also, there's the underlying fear that I'll be just like my parents. Thankfully, Mr.Muzz is an incredibly great guy who has been reassuring me that I'll be a great mother, and that he and I will be better parents than mine ever could be.
I speak from experience.
The moment your parents realise you just don't give a shit about their opinions (because they spent their childhood shitting you), is the moment suddenly they tell you "we've always been proud of you".
Most likely it's because you're an adult now and they've come to the realisation that if they keep treating you badly you'll cut them off.
It's weird, after two decades of mental, emotional, and mid level physical abuse, my parents have made a 180 in attitude. As soon as I moved out, there was 'You need anything Muzz? Give us a call, we're behind you no matter what." Instead of "We're so disappointed in you, Muzz, you're a fat, neurotic loser who's a disgrace to your family name. Also, any good you will do will be credited us, because of our good parenting." I mean, I wasn't the angel kid, but my worst tendencies as a teen was failing classes because I didn't do homework or projects. Not drugs, not sleeping around, no petty crimes. It didn't help that not only did I have to compete against an much older step-sibling (Muzz, at your age, your sister was a grade ahead, and was the most popular kid at school), an autistic brother (No Muzz, we can't help you fundraise for your class trip, we're too busy fundraising for his special ed. class trip), and a adorable nephew (Oh my god, our grandchild is so cute, we're going to shower him with toys, money, and trips. Hopefully he won't turn out to be a good for nothing sack of shit like his aunt)
Oddly, even ten years, I still have issues with my parents. I'm thirty years old, pregnant, and I'm freaking out like a teen about what my parents will think even though financially, I'm in great shape. Also, there's the underlying fear that I'll be just like my parents. Thankfully, Mr.Muzz is an incredibly great guy who has been reassuring me that I'll be a great mother, and that he and I will be better parents than mine ever could be.
I speak from experience.
The moment your parents realise you just don't give a shit about their opinions (because they spent their childhood shitting you), is the moment suddenly they tell you "we've always been proud of you".
Most likely it's because you're an adult now and they've come to the realisation that if they keep treating you badly you'll cut them off.
My mother was the opposite she got progressively worse, including abandoning me and leaving me with my father for a period. And when she found out my at the time girlfriend now wife was pregnant she doubled down called me every dirty name in the book and told me to get out, so I disowned her.
5 almost 6 years later she hasn't met her grandson or her 4 month old granddaughter and never will ever.
In less hilarious news, email exchange with my mother, trying to get her to make an international bank transfer (because I'm in a coffee shop on an unsecured network):
"can you put the routing number into the field that asks for a routing number"
"there is no field, it's just a dropdown list of types of code"
"I can see the field in the screenshot you sent me, it's next to the dropdown"
"There is no field"
"Is it greyed out? It's right there"
"There is no field"
... etc
eventually I circle the damn thing on the screenshot and send it back.
"Oh THAT field."
Also she put the wrong address in and the wrong amount.
... yeah.
(actually I don't even think you need the routing number for international payments, just the SWIFT - but better safe than sorry)
As a CSR in a Canadian bank I can tell you you can never have too much information when doing a wire transfer. We even like to have the address and info for the bank it's going to as well as any transit financial institution numbers and bank account numbers. Swift number can only get you so far and hopefully both ends use them and not one of the other 2 standards. Because once you hit send on a wire transfer there is no recall and you can only hope that the correspondent bank finds the error before passing it on to the payee bank and returns it so it doesn't end up in computer limbo for ages.
How can you tell wire transfers freak me the fuck out?
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited November 2015
So follow up from the 4th, I have not heard anything initiated from a single family member over the last two weeks. Most have backed out of thanksgiving. So not only is my family (the good, non-psychotic part of it) being routinely shitty to me over having a real job, now they are apparently communicating specifically to exclude me. There is a "family text" group we keep, someone posted the middle part of a sentence to several members in it and then said "whoops, wrong chat." They haven't replied since. I've sent texts offering to get together with folks, but gotten replies like "well, I'll have to check my schedule and see if I can get off work."
I'm seriously down about all of this. Aside from my wife and her family, I don't really have any relatives left that will speak with me or that I am willing to speak with. My family has been pretty crazy (ive talked about the murders and assholery in here in the past), but at this point... I don't know. The holidays are approaching and I'm painfully aware that, as of this morning, I am literally the last person with my last name in the family. Everyone else has married out, changed their name, or is dead. Add that with everything else going on, it's pretty lonely.
It's just really depressing. My wife and her family are awesome to me, and they don't understand how my folks can be the way they are. They are kind, good people. And it helps! Just not enough to shake this right now.
Enc, it's totally their loss. You've been through a lot with them and you deserve to be treated like a whole member of the family, not an afterthought.
For what it's worth (and you may not believe it) I understand your position implicitly.
You do you; hang with your wife's family and the rest of the world can sit on it and rotate.
Enc, it's totally their loss. You've been through a lot with them and you deserve to be treated like a whole member of the family, not an afterthought.
For what it's worth (and you may not believe it) I understand your position implicitly.
You do you; hang with your wife's family and the rest of the world can sit on it and rotate.
Seriously, If they're gonna be children about this, let em. Stop responding, I say, and if anyone asks why: "I removed myself from the situation until everyone could act like rational well-mannered adults. Instead of engaging in infantile mockery and behavior."
Or whatever you feel comfortable with. It's easier for me to say than do.
On Sunday, I spent five hours helping my sister "Susan" with her college essays. I had stuff to do, but it was early decision, she had a deadline, and I thought that was more important. Susan was really nice and it seemed like we were finally getting along again. So I've been more relaxed around her since.
Then today happened.
Susan was holding her dog, and I told my dog "dinner." Susan's dog got overly excited and smacked her in the face. Susan got mad. I apologized, "Sorry, I was talking to Jet." (My dog.) Then I went to feed Jet. Mom told Susan to feed her dog.
Susan said, "I will when everybody stops saying fucking dinner."
Now, there's a thing my mom, sisters and (to a lesser extent) I all do when somebody reacts like this. We say or do the thing to be obnoxious. Susan does it the most. And since I felt more relaxed around Susan, I went "Dinner, dinner dinner!" Susan was pissed and decided she didn't want to eat dinner in the same room as me.
But, later when talking with my mom about what happened, she kinda changed her story and is claiming she's actually mad because between the first time I said "dinner" and the time I said "dinner" three times, I used the word while feeding Jet and her dog smacked her in the face again. And I only apologized for the first time, not the second. (Also, I am a horrible, immature person who should know how to behave herself by now, but somehow doesn't and Susan's not giving me a pass on this. Mom shouldn't either. Mom coddles me, and I'm not going to amount to anything.)
Neither my mom or I remember Susan's version of what happened. We both (independently) remembered that I made some noise filling Jet's bowl (it's metal) and Susan's dog freaked out about that. I didn't say "dinner" again until I was being obnoxious.
I could easily be wrong, & didn't remember things correctly, should have apologized, should have known it wouldn't be okay for me to be obnoxious but... I think Susan was gaslighting Mom. And while I definitely would have deserved a pissed off look and sarcastic comment, Susan refusing to eat in the same room as me was an overreaction.
Ugh. I don't know what to do at this point. I'm not mad I spent time helping her Sunday. Nor do I feel like she should have been nicer to me for doing so, or something like that. But at the same time, I don't really want to help her with anything else. (Although I probably will.) I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to see her after I move out, because I feel like this will just keep happening.
There was a point when my dad started making noise about sitting us down for five minutes & "fixing" our relationship (literally, five minutes.) And I wrote out a prep-sheet for myself. I actually had to go back and read it to remind myself I'm not going insane here.
I will get up and walk out of the room if any of the following happen: Susan uses one of her stock arguments:
“You always have to be right!” / “You’re so corrective!” or anything along those lines
“You always have to have the last word!”
“Mom always sides with you!”
“What you just said was completely unnecessary!”
“You’re bringing up stuff from the past!” / “holding grudges” or anything along those lines
Susan claims I deserve to be treated poorly, or her own behavior is justified because of something I, or Mom, did.
“Maybe I wouldn’t do that if ____”
“Well, YOU do ______, so you can’t yell at me for _______!”
Gaslighting
Yelling
It is suggested that I do not try hard enough with my relatives, or my general distaste for certain relatives is unjustified.
The main problem is Susan acts like I don’t deserve to use or occupy the house. Sub issues are:
Susan blames me for her poor treatment of me, or claims her behavior is justified.
Anything but complete compliance with whatever Susan wants is met with annoyance and rage.
Anything but complete agreement with whatever Susan says is met with annoyance and rage.
Any attempt to defend myself is met with annoyance, rage, gaslighting, stock arguments, character assassination and martyrdom.
I clearly disgust and embarrass Susan unless I work very hard to make myself invisible.
Susan treats Mom horribly when she doesn’t get her way.
Talking about or engaging in any of my interests visibly annoys Susan.
It is clear Susan does not like it when I act happily.
Susan is not only dismissive of my feelings about certain relatives, but also enraged that I’d have the gall to have those feelings in the first place.
Susan demands I change my behavior, but is completely unwilling to change her own.
Susan does not follow any of the rules she creates, and makes up excuses for why they don’t apply when she breaks them.
from what you've written out, not wanting to engage with her seems pretty rational.
but i think the rationality of that feeling to anyone other than you is maybe the least important thing.
I think it's human for an emotional reaction to a person to be complex, because people's actions and behaviors often ARE complex. It doesn't have to be a black and white thing, "I love them" or "I hate them."
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Whats the age difference between you and your sister?
That's not a sister, that's a monster. That's the kind of fucked up person that beats their spouse then says its the spouses fault.
Once you move out, you really need to never, EVER, talk to them ever again.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
It's sounds like there's a whole bunch of unhealthy dynamics going on in your house, not even getting into the stuff with your dad, and honestly my only real advice is to get out of there when possible. If nothing else, a bunch of adult or nearly-adult people who don't relate to each other well having to live on top of each other is a recipe for friction. Id expect your relationship with your sister to vastly improve if you're not under the same roof.
I've looked into moving out, actually, and I don't think it's feasible even with my current job. So with the exception of last weekend (which I spent helping Susan) I've been focused on getting into grad school because that'll allow me to work a job I know I can handle while earning enough money to be financially independent. The current goal is to get out by next September, get a job lined up before graduation, and never come back.
I've had people tell me my relationship with my sisters will eventually improve for years. It hasn't, and at this point, I think it won't. They're not getting better. They're getting worse. Gwen spent $400 bucks of my parents' money on Uber rides in a month, after my mom had told her to stop doing that and tried to get her card canceled. When Mom finally deactivated the Uber account, Gwen told Mom she was being delusional and threatened to start driving to parties drunk. Susan has screamed at our mother for fifteen minutes because Mom didn't get a second car for Susan. How am I supposed to have a good relationship with people who act like that?
Susan gets home in an hour and a half. When she's settled down, I'm going to ask to have a talk with her. And I'm going to tell her that either we can meet with a neutral 3rd party moderator (NOT Mom or Dad) and make a serious attempt to fix some of the problems between us, or we need to stop interacting with each other. Because I'm done with this.
Oh, and on a separate note, you know how my dad's relatives reacted to my new job & grad school plan? They laughed, then told my mom I have to come to the Christmas party this year so they can give me the stupid Librarian action figure they've been pranking people with for the last decade. They're openly planning to make fun of me, on Christmas.
Speaking bluntly, your whole family sounds super juvenile and petty. I think you should leave because its healthier to be out of that environment - the knock on effect (if any) on your relationship with various family members is merely a side bonus. But I get that you're trying - sounds like you have a plan, which is great.
Parents got home from Israel safely. Judging by how vague they were answering some of my questions, I'm 100% certain my stepdad took my mom to a bunch of places he shouldn't have. So I'll just have to wait until Christmas to be mad at them in person, when they forget themselves and tell some horrible story about bribing a taxi driver to smuggle them into the west bank so they could take pictures at historical sites.
Realizing lately that I don't really trust or respect basically any of the moderators here. So, good luck with life, friends! Hit me up on Twitter @DesertLeviathan
Speaking bluntly, your whole family sounds super juvenile and petty. I think you should leave because its healthier to be out of that environment - the knock on effect (if any) on your relationship with various family members is merely a side bonus. But I get that you're trying - sounds like you have a plan, which is great.
I'm torn between going "Well, I'm probably like that too / bring that out in them because I'm difficult to deal with." And being like, "Yeah, with the exception of maybe four family members, everybody I'm related to can fuck off."
Either way, nobody in my extended family has my cell # and I'm going to quietly slip away once I start grad school. Even if I am that unpleasant, I won't improve if I have to be around them.
UPDATE: Maybe I spoke too soon? Mom and I talked to Dad, and he might actually call his siblings and tell them to lay off me. And Susan actually agreed to work on things with a neutral third party moderator. I'm not super optimistic about either one working, but it's WAY better than nothing.
Creagan, I was married to a man disturbingly similar to your sister. She is never, EVER going to get better. She will, on occasion, act better when she wants something from you, or when she senses she has pushed you too far and you are trying to cut her out of your life, but she will always revert to who she is at her worst. Because who she is at her worst is WHO SHE IS. Any other facade she puts over that is just an active disguise she is using to lie and manipulate you.
There is a great deal of literature out there that documents and discusses people like her. She's not the first, and she will not be the last. And no matter how hard you try, she will never be a sister to you, only a user and abuser.
Sitting down and talking with a third party moderator isn't going to work. She will either lie to the moderator to make herself seem like the victim here, or lie to you to make it seem like she's changed, only to revert again when lieing no longer benefits her. Sadly, it's not better than nothing, because really, it is nothing. And likely it will later be used as ammunition agaisnt you. "How can you say that I'm the problem? I went to the moderator to work this out, the fact that it isn't worked out is obviously YOUR fault," etc.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
The moderator we picked has known us both professionally since childhood, so I don't think Susan will be able to lie like that. (Susan actually suggested the woman, so I know she feels OK about it.)
I offered moderation as an option because the sort of behavior I've described in Susan is a fairly recent developement. Gwen was abusive towards me even during early childhood. Susan was not. Susan doesn't have half of Gwen's nastiness. But what Susan's doing now is straight out of our father's playbook, with bits of Gwen's influence here and there.
I think Susan has been imitating Dad and Gwen because it's an easy way to get what she wants in the short term. (It was especially so when I came home from college an anxiety ridden emotional basket case & lacked the energy to fight back.) And I'm hoping if we demonstrate otherwise, she will drop it.
I'm planning on going into this meeting VERY prepared. I've taken that document I posted earlier and modified it for use during the meeting. Everything is carefully thought out and designed to minimize Susan's chances to pull shit. And I'm doing this so I can tell myself I made a serious effort to fix things, & and it isn't that I'm such a horrible person two of my three siblings can't talk to me.
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Creagan, what are you expecting from this meeting? You make it sound like there will be a deposition and then judicial review, but if your sister feels threatened by your prepared documents or feels like you are being aggressive with facts and figures, even if they are true, that probably won't help resolution.
Unless your goal is to prove to an impartial audience that your side of this affair is right and just, I don't see how this will end anything but badly. I may not be understanding exactly what you are going for though.
If you are not seeing someone for your own mental health, start. Getting the validation etc. is great from an outside, impartial person who has your health and interests as the base. Seeking it from your sister....seems like a hill I wouldn't want to die on. But then it took me a good long time to realize I wasn't ever going to be close with my mom AND was not responsible for her shittyness, so I'm talking much more from the other side of a lot of that process which is way easier than it would have been at the start!
Creagan, what are you expecting from this meeting? You make it sound like there will be a deposition and then judicial review, but if your sister feels threatened by your prepared documents or feels like you are being aggressive with facts and figures, even if they are true, that probably won't help resolution.
Unless your goal is to prove to an impartial audience that your side of this affair is right and just, I don't see how this will end anything but badly. I may not be understanding exactly what you are going for though.
My end goal is for the two of us to be able to at least have a neutral relationship. No more weekly fights that end in Mom getting dragged into our crap. A close relationshop would be nice, but I don't see that as a realistic goal & haven't for a year.
The documents are merely a defense system because I can see Susan angling for a 'that'll happen if you change your personality and get social skills' type resolution, although knowing the moderator I doubt she'll allow that. (I have a tendency to over-prepare for things.) I may wind up memorizing the documents so Susan does not see them & interpret them as a personal attack.
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited November 2015
From personal, and disastrous, experience in my own family these sort of "showdowns" do not end well, usually with the two parties being even more ostracized from each other. If your goal is to reconcile, you have to consider that regardless of the correctness of your situation you will need to bow to your sister's demands in order to satisfy her. That doesn't make her right, but if it is a relationship you want to foster you will always have to concede more than you get to maintain the relationship. That's just how family stuff works. No amount of logic will change someone's mind over matters of the heart. You can't debate someone into getting along with you.
Doing so, especially in being highly prepared, will only make the other person feel like a fool, which is great if you want to shame them or feel self righteous, but that's going to be the end of that relationship.
Last time someone attempted something like this in my family two folks didn't speak for about 4 years, about 12 thousand dollars in property damage, and one party member ended up in the hospital. It also led to the family being divided along the two parties lines. That said, my family is absolutely awful and is not representational of normal human beings, but the situation is similar enough to where I'd expect the outcome to be more likely not civil or beneficial in the long run than so.
Ultimately the question is how much are you willing to concede to keep your relationship with your sister, and is she willing to come part of the way as well? If not, or if the cost to do so is too high for you, then the relationship probably not worth keeping.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
I am willing to concede ZERO to keep a relationship with my sister. I don't really want to know anyone who treats anyone the way she treats my mom.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I don't want this to turn into a showdown. I'm aiming for a calm discussion where Susan and I set a goal, and talk about what we can do to reach it. It will probably involve talking about some problems we have with each other, and what needs to change. But I don't think the woman moderating this will allow that part of the conversation to turn into an airing of petty personal grievances.
Our moderator has tutored my sister and I for learning disability stuff, and is still my go-to person for test updates & applying for educational accommodations. Which in my mind, makes her the perfect person to do this. She probably knows our strengths and weaknesses better than our parents, doesn't have a huge emotional investment in a resolution, and is really really good at making my sister and I behave ourselves & stay on topic.
The reason I'm doing the whole document thing is I am stressed out about this, worried the meeting isn't going to go well, and obsessively over preparing calms me down. I may not even use it. But if I try to go into this blind, I will start thinking about all the possible ways this meeting will go wrong, how horrible I am, and possibly give myself an anxiety attack. (Actually, though.) This is my way of reminding myself that I have a game plan. I am not a terrible person for being upset with the way Susan treats me. I only have to agree to reasonable requests. (Like being more positive around Susan, or speaking less bluntly.) This is not going to end in somebody dying.
Now, the solution to all this may still be that we just agree to avoid each other and keep conversation to a minimum. But I'm okay with that. Gwen and I barely talk, and we're both happier that way. I just want to reach some kind of mature, mutual agreement.
But honestly I'm having a hard time believing that the outcome wil be even close to what you are hoping for.
But really, even if it did, nothing in your stories has convinced me that you stand to gain anything but anguish by prolonged association with these people.
Ugh.
My folks are in town, staying at a hotel. Dad went to the sauna for about 2 hours last night. He had himself... an episode is the only word I can think of for it. He was thinking about some people he had seen, and thought that they might have been terrorists, so he wanted someone to take a look at the security footage. He tried to call 911, but that went to the hotel lobby, who after he hung up on them a couple of times, sent someone to where he was (still at the sauna area? I don't know!). He excused himself to get dressed, and when he came out, the (security???) guy was gone.
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A craze which started with one family's misunderstanding of their grandfather's vehement opposition to having his photo taken
True to their interpretation of his wishes, they later took a photo over his dead body
I speak from experience.
The moment your parents realise you just don't give a shit about their opinions (because they spent their childhood shitting you), is the moment suddenly they tell you "we've always been proud of you".
Most likely it's because you're an adult now and they've come to the realisation that if they keep treating you badly you'll cut them off.
My mother was the opposite she got progressively worse, including abandoning me and leaving me with my father for a period. And when she found out my at the time girlfriend now wife was pregnant she doubled down called me every dirty name in the book and told me to get out, so I disowned her.
5 almost 6 years later she hasn't met her grandson or her 4 month old granddaughter and never will ever.
As a CSR in a Canadian bank I can tell you you can never have too much information when doing a wire transfer. We even like to have the address and info for the bank it's going to as well as any transit financial institution numbers and bank account numbers. Swift number can only get you so far and hopefully both ends use them and not one of the other 2 standards. Because once you hit send on a wire transfer there is no recall and you can only hope that the correspondent bank finds the error before passing it on to the payee bank and returns it so it doesn't end up in computer limbo for ages.
How can you tell wire transfers freak me the fuck out?
I'm seriously down about all of this. Aside from my wife and her family, I don't really have any relatives left that will speak with me or that I am willing to speak with. My family has been pretty crazy (ive talked about the murders and assholery in here in the past), but at this point... I don't know. The holidays are approaching and I'm painfully aware that, as of this morning, I am literally the last person with my last name in the family. Everyone else has married out, changed their name, or is dead. Add that with everything else going on, it's pretty lonely.
It's just really depressing. My wife and her family are awesome to me, and they don't understand how my folks can be the way they are. They are kind, good people. And it helps! Just not enough to shake this right now.
For what it's worth (and you may not believe it) I understand your position implicitly.
You do you; hang with your wife's family and the rest of the world can sit on it and rotate.
Seriously, If they're gonna be children about this, let em. Stop responding, I say, and if anyone asks why: "I removed myself from the situation until everyone could act like rational well-mannered adults. Instead of engaging in infantile mockery and behavior."
Or whatever you feel comfortable with. It's easier for me to say than do.
its not like the emails and texts that said the old date suddenly disappeared into the ether
On Sunday, I spent five hours helping my sister "Susan" with her college essays. I had stuff to do, but it was early decision, she had a deadline, and I thought that was more important. Susan was really nice and it seemed like we were finally getting along again. So I've been more relaxed around her since.
Then today happened.
Susan said, "I will when everybody stops saying fucking dinner."
Now, there's a thing my mom, sisters and (to a lesser extent) I all do when somebody reacts like this. We say or do the thing to be obnoxious. Susan does it the most. And since I felt more relaxed around Susan, I went "Dinner, dinner dinner!" Susan was pissed and decided she didn't want to eat dinner in the same room as me.
But, later when talking with my mom about what happened, she kinda changed her story and is claiming she's actually mad because between the first time I said "dinner" and the time I said "dinner" three times, I used the word while feeding Jet and her dog smacked her in the face again. And I only apologized for the first time, not the second. (Also, I am a horrible, immature person who should know how to behave herself by now, but somehow doesn't and Susan's not giving me a pass on this. Mom shouldn't either. Mom coddles me, and I'm not going to amount to anything.)
Neither my mom or I remember Susan's version of what happened. We both (independently) remembered that I made some noise filling Jet's bowl (it's metal) and Susan's dog freaked out about that. I didn't say "dinner" again until I was being obnoxious.
I could easily be wrong, & didn't remember things correctly, should have apologized, should have known it wouldn't be okay for me to be obnoxious but... I think Susan was gaslighting Mom. And while I definitely would have deserved a pissed off look and sarcastic comment, Susan refusing to eat in the same room as me was an overreaction.
Ugh. I don't know what to do at this point. I'm not mad I spent time helping her Sunday. Nor do I feel like she should have been nicer to me for doing so, or something like that. But at the same time, I don't really want to help her with anything else. (Although I probably will.) I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to see her after I move out, because I feel like this will just keep happening.
There was a point when my dad started making noise about sitting us down for five minutes & "fixing" our relationship (literally, five minutes.) And I wrote out a prep-sheet for myself. I actually had to go back and read it to remind myself I'm not going insane here.
Susan uses one of her stock arguments:
“You always have to be right!” / “You’re so corrective!” or anything along those lines
“You always have to have the last word!”
“Mom always sides with you!”
“What you just said was completely unnecessary!”
“You’re bringing up stuff from the past!” / “holding grudges” or anything along those lines
Susan claims I deserve to be treated poorly, or her own behavior is justified because of something I, or Mom, did.
“Maybe I wouldn’t do that if ____”
“Well, YOU do ______, so you can’t yell at me for _______!”
Gaslighting
Yelling
It is suggested that I do not try hard enough with my relatives, or my general distaste for certain relatives is unjustified.
The main problem is Susan acts like I don’t deserve to use or occupy the house. Sub issues are:
Susan blames me for her poor treatment of me, or claims her behavior is justified.
Anything but complete compliance with whatever Susan wants is met with annoyance and rage.
Anything but complete agreement with whatever Susan says is met with annoyance and rage.
Any attempt to defend myself is met with annoyance, rage, gaslighting, stock arguments, character assassination and martyrdom.
I clearly disgust and embarrass Susan unless I work very hard to make myself invisible.
Susan treats Mom horribly when she doesn’t get her way.
Talking about or engaging in any of my interests visibly annoys Susan.
It is clear Susan does not like it when I act happily.
Susan is not only dismissive of my feelings about certain relatives, but also enraged that I’d have the gall to have those feelings in the first place.
Susan demands I change my behavior, but is completely unwilling to change her own.
Susan does not follow any of the rules she creates, and makes up excuses for why they don’t apply when she breaks them.
but i think the rationality of that feeling to anyone other than you is maybe the least important thing.
I think it's human for an emotional reaction to a person to be complex, because people's actions and behaviors often ARE complex. It doesn't have to be a black and white thing, "I love them" or "I hate them."
That's not a sister, that's a monster. That's the kind of fucked up person that beats their spouse then says its the spouses fault.
Once you move out, you really need to never, EVER, talk to them ever again.
I've had people tell me my relationship with my sisters will eventually improve for years. It hasn't, and at this point, I think it won't. They're not getting better. They're getting worse. Gwen spent $400 bucks of my parents' money on Uber rides in a month, after my mom had told her to stop doing that and tried to get her card canceled. When Mom finally deactivated the Uber account, Gwen told Mom she was being delusional and threatened to start driving to parties drunk. Susan has screamed at our mother for fifteen minutes because Mom didn't get a second car for Susan. How am I supposed to have a good relationship with people who act like that?
Susan gets home in an hour and a half. When she's settled down, I'm going to ask to have a talk with her. And I'm going to tell her that either we can meet with a neutral 3rd party moderator (NOT Mom or Dad) and make a serious attempt to fix some of the problems between us, or we need to stop interacting with each other. Because I'm done with this.
Oh, and on a separate note, you know how my dad's relatives reacted to my new job & grad school plan? They laughed, then told my mom I have to come to the Christmas party this year so they can give me the stupid Librarian action figure they've been pranking people with for the last decade. They're openly planning to make fun of me, on Christmas.
I'm torn between going "Well, I'm probably like that too / bring that out in them because I'm difficult to deal with." And being like, "Yeah, with the exception of maybe four family members, everybody I'm related to can fuck off."
Either way, nobody in my extended family has my cell # and I'm going to quietly slip away once I start grad school. Even if I am that unpleasant, I won't improve if I have to be around them.
UPDATE: Maybe I spoke too soon? Mom and I talked to Dad, and he might actually call his siblings and tell them to lay off me. And Susan actually agreed to work on things with a neutral third party moderator. I'm not super optimistic about either one working, but it's WAY better than nothing.
There is a great deal of literature out there that documents and discusses people like her. She's not the first, and she will not be the last. And no matter how hard you try, she will never be a sister to you, only a user and abuser.
Sitting down and talking with a third party moderator isn't going to work. She will either lie to the moderator to make herself seem like the victim here, or lie to you to make it seem like she's changed, only to revert again when lieing no longer benefits her. Sadly, it's not better than nothing, because really, it is nothing. And likely it will later be used as ammunition agaisnt you. "How can you say that I'm the problem? I went to the moderator to work this out, the fact that it isn't worked out is obviously YOUR fault," etc.
I offered moderation as an option because the sort of behavior I've described in Susan is a fairly recent developement. Gwen was abusive towards me even during early childhood. Susan was not. Susan doesn't have half of Gwen's nastiness. But what Susan's doing now is straight out of our father's playbook, with bits of Gwen's influence here and there.
I think Susan has been imitating Dad and Gwen because it's an easy way to get what she wants in the short term. (It was especially so when I came home from college an anxiety ridden emotional basket case & lacked the energy to fight back.) And I'm hoping if we demonstrate otherwise, she will drop it.
I'm planning on going into this meeting VERY prepared. I've taken that document I posted earlier and modified it for use during the meeting. Everything is carefully thought out and designed to minimize Susan's chances to pull shit. And I'm doing this so I can tell myself I made a serious effort to fix things, & and it isn't that I'm such a horrible person two of my three siblings can't talk to me.
Unless your goal is to prove to an impartial audience that your side of this affair is right and just, I don't see how this will end anything but badly. I may not be understanding exactly what you are going for though.
My end goal is for the two of us to be able to at least have a neutral relationship. No more weekly fights that end in Mom getting dragged into our crap. A close relationshop would be nice, but I don't see that as a realistic goal & haven't for a year.
The documents are merely a defense system because I can see Susan angling for a 'that'll happen if you change your personality and get social skills' type resolution, although knowing the moderator I doubt she'll allow that. (I have a tendency to over-prepare for things.) I may wind up memorizing the documents so Susan does not see them & interpret them as a personal attack.
Doing so, especially in being highly prepared, will only make the other person feel like a fool, which is great if you want to shame them or feel self righteous, but that's going to be the end of that relationship.
Last time someone attempted something like this in my family two folks didn't speak for about 4 years, about 12 thousand dollars in property damage, and one party member ended up in the hospital. It also led to the family being divided along the two parties lines. That said, my family is absolutely awful and is not representational of normal human beings, but the situation is similar enough to where I'd expect the outcome to be more likely not civil or beneficial in the long run than so.
Ultimately the question is how much are you willing to concede to keep your relationship with your sister, and is she willing to come part of the way as well? If not, or if the cost to do so is too high for you, then the relationship probably not worth keeping.
Our moderator has tutored my sister and I for learning disability stuff, and is still my go-to person for test updates & applying for educational accommodations. Which in my mind, makes her the perfect person to do this. She probably knows our strengths and weaknesses better than our parents, doesn't have a huge emotional investment in a resolution, and is really really good at making my sister and I behave ourselves & stay on topic.
The reason I'm doing the whole document thing is I am stressed out about this, worried the meeting isn't going to go well, and obsessively over preparing calms me down. I may not even use it. But if I try to go into this blind, I will start thinking about all the possible ways this meeting will go wrong, how horrible I am, and possibly give myself an anxiety attack. (Actually, though.) This is my way of reminding myself that I have a game plan. I am not a terrible person for being upset with the way Susan treats me. I only have to agree to reasonable requests. (Like being more positive around Susan, or speaking less bluntly.) This is not going to end in somebody dying.
Now, the solution to all this may still be that we just agree to avoid each other and keep conversation to a minimum. But I'm okay with that. Gwen and I barely talk, and we're both happier that way. I just want to reach some kind of mature, mutual agreement.
But honestly I'm having a hard time believing that the outcome wil be even close to what you are hoping for.
But really, even if it did, nothing in your stories has convinced me that you stand to gain anything but anguish by prolonged association with these people.
I told her she was not allowed to get cancer, dammit.
My folks are in town, staying at a hotel. Dad went to the sauna for about 2 hours last night. He had himself... an episode is the only word I can think of for it. He was thinking about some people he had seen, and thought that they might have been terrorists, so he wanted someone to take a look at the security footage. He tried to call 911, but that went to the hotel lobby, who after he hung up on them a couple of times, sent someone to where he was (still at the sauna area? I don't know!). He excused himself to get dressed, and when he came out, the (security???) guy was gone.
Thanksgiving dinner is gonna be a thing.
Do they know what stage?
The ACA seems to think that endometrial cancer is very survivable, especially if its caught early!
That's rough to hear. Just found out my dad has prostate cancer.
Been one of those days