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A Thread About [Black Lives Matter]

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Posts

  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited August 2015
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    TL DR on
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  • YallYall Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    TL DR wrote: »
    Yall wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    Yall wrote: »
    They need leadership so that they can disassociate/condemn actions done in the name of the movement that don't align with their goals.

    That is a conversation that can happen internally. Opponents of the movement want a leader to point to in order to easily condemn the movement without having to talk about substantive issues.

    I dunno, I think it very much can cut both ways. Take the "chant" that happened at some state fair protest over the weekend that implied they were advocating for violence against police. That isn't going to help anything and will likely further entrench opponents. A strong leader can come out and say "knock it off, we don't support that kind of rhetoric and you're hurting the cause".

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. My position is that your vision of political organization and placing priority on figureheads would serve primarily to enable the opposition and that there will always be a fringe element of any movement to serve as a convenient scapegoat for already-calcified prejudice.

    It doesn't even have to be a figurehead though. It could be a leadership team or board or directors, etc.

    Also, I don't entirely disagree with your position (I.e. Acknowledging that it can cut both ways, with each option having pluses and minuses)

    Yall on
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    TL DR wrote: »
    Yall wrote: »
    They need leadership so that they can disassociate/condemn actions done in the name of the movement that don't align with their goals.

    That is a conversation that can happen internally. Opponents of the movement want a leader to point to in order to easily condemn the movement without having to talk about substantive issues.

    I find (locally) that many opponents of the movement don't know much about it beyond its not-super-informative hash tag. The typical knee-jerk read on that amongst my conservative, white-people peers is that "BlackLivesMatter," at best, has no deeper context, or, at worst, has an implied suffix of "more than white lives".

    Explaining that the movement is about the disproportionate police violence that black people tend to endure, may do little to shake their initial view of the movement as racist or entitled, but they could stand to make that more clear.

    Even the OP of this thread doesn't actually make this goal regarding police behavior clear. I wonder if a great deal of the contention surrounding BLM isn't that supporters assume the intention/goals are obvious, while opponents are just left to their assumptions because things like that joincampaignzero link syndalis posted aren't at the forefront of the messaging that makes its way to conservative ears.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
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  • VanguardVanguard Je suis le savant au fauteuil sombre. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    One of the major issues with all of the social movements and protests that have been happening in the last year (and in the past) is that minority voices tend to be skipped over for well meaning white people saying more or less the same thing. When I see SKFM talk about feeling alienated and dismissed I can't help but see the irony. There is no shortage of black people in America making well-reasoned points about the issues facing their community who are basically ignored in favor of giving people like John Stewart the spotlight to air the same grievances.

    It's totally fair for them to ask allies to take a step back on this stuff. Sure, still show up rallies, still show your solidarity, be as helpful as you possibly can. But the first step is recognizing that your voice is louder by virtue of the fact that you are not black and one of the most helpful ways you exist in this space is simply to listen.

    TL DRAngelHedgieHarry DresdenJuliusHacksawMegaMekSurfpossumCalicadescEdith UpwardsKristmas Kthulhu
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Atomika wrote: »
    So at its most simple, isn't the BLM movement mostly about raising awareness of privilege and institutionalized disenfranchisement?

    There is a list of 8-9 demands somewhere that were for the most part completely agreeable and things we should be doing as a country.

    http://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision

    This should absolutely be in the OP if it isnt.

    What is meant by the Broken Window laws proposal with regard to trespassing or disturbing the peace (for example)?

    I'm not sure how one addresses these without the police, without its worst-case-scenario devolving into a similar shit-show?

    (See also Treyvon Martin, or any of the shit that came up when I Googled 'trespassing shooting death' expecting to find articles about cops pulling the trigger)

    It seems to me that Body Cameras (6) and Training (7) would be a better policy focus. If you need an active legal situation defused, you should be able to rely on trained professionals. I think the real problem is that the police, our designated point-of-contacts in these matters, cannot always be relied on to be both trained and professional.
    This is being thoroughly discussed in the other thread about Campaign Zero:
    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/200184/campaign-zero-a-ten-point-plan-against-police-brutality

    tl;dr - You are rehashing SKFM's argument in that thread.

    Ah! Seemed worthy of its own thread. I'll go read it, thanks.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    Bolded added.
    Indeed, but how do they get that? They've got a good product with that 10 point program, but now they need to market it.

    ArbitraryDescriptorLoisLane
  • VanguardVanguard Je suis le savant au fauteuil sombre. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    Bolded added.
    Indeed, but how do they get that? They've got a good product with that 10 point program, but now they need to market it.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#BlackLivesMatter&src=tyah

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Does it count as irony that Twitter is blocked from my work computer?

    Agahnim
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    Bolded added.
    Indeed, but how do they get that? They've got a good product with that 10 point program, but now they need to market it.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#BlackLivesMatter&src=tyah

    Market it to people who don't already follow that hashtag or use twitter?

    I don't really have a better suggestion for how to do that...

    and I know about it now, so I guess it is working to a degree.

  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    Why would someone want to be the "leader" of BLM, considering what happened to previous leaders of black empowerment movements?

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  • VanguardVanguard Je suis le savant au fauteuil sombre. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    Bolded added.
    Indeed, but how do they get that? They've got a good product with that 10 point program, but now they need to market it.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#BlackLivesMatter&src=tyah

    Market it to people who don't already follow that hashtag or use twitter?

    I don't really have a better suggestion for how to do that...

    and I know about it now, so I guess it is working to a degree.

    I feel pretty confident in saying that anyone who uses social media or reads/watches/listens to the news will hear about this movement in some way, shape, or form. The worst reporting on it tends to happen at the national stage whereas the best, IMO, is the on the ground stuff on social media since their message isn't being translated through predominantly white media outlets.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do. A deliberately exclusionary stance just makes it seem like non-black allies are second class allies. Who wants to feel like that? Why should anyone cooperate or acquiesce to a group that they think is making a mistake just because the people acting are members of a minority?

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do. A deliberately exclusionary stance just makes it seem like non-black allies are second class allies. Who wants to feel like that? Why should anyone cooperate or acquiesce to a group that they think is making a mistake just because the people acting are members of a minority?

    I'm pretty sure they have a much better idea of what racism really means than you do, on account of living it. Which, in turn, informs their points on how to fix it.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    It really isn't. It's not that they aren't interested in allies support it's just that allies need to know how to do that support without taking over or not respecting the context of the cause.

  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do. A deliberately exclusionary stance just makes it seem like non-black allies are second class allies. Who wants to feel like that? Why should anyone cooperate or acquiesce to a group that they think is making a mistake just because the people acting are members of a minority?

    They aren't allies, though. They're the group to which this issue is directly relevant. You're not subject to the same discrimination as black people and there is a meaningful distinction there which renders the experiences of black people more relevant to this conversation.

    Harry DresdenCalicaKristmas Kthulhu
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do. A deliberately exclusionary stance just makes it seem like non-black allies are second class allies. Who wants to feel like that? Why should anyone cooperate or acquiesce to a group that they think is making a mistake just because the people acting are members of a minority?

    I'm pretty sure they have a much better idea of what racism really means than you do, on account of living it. Which, in turn, informs their points on how to fix it.

    Blacksplaining: White people tell black people what they are doing wrong to fix racism in America.

    You know, don't dress in like a "thug", don't talk ebonics, don't have ethnic names and be nice and grateful that they are even allowed to be US citizens. Nevermind that black people who follow this advice still face huge amounts racism.

    Its like the problem with racism in america is that white people are racist.

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  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    We then all get ponies afterwards?

    While it is possible for someone to find a solution to racism without actually understanding it, it's possible in the same way that being given $1B is possible.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    It does provide better insight, it's an experience outsiders can't get themselves. Sure you don't have to be black or whatever to have an opinion on how to solve it, but dismissing the people who actually go through it day to day isn't respectful to them. Listen to what they say, don't talk over them, and think about it from their point of view. Being white does not make your opinion on racial politics better than a minority's in solving racism.

  • VanguardVanguard Je suis le savant au fauteuil sombre. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2015
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    As I said in my prior post, ignoring black voices is kind of a huge part of the problem. This is why who is speaking matters and also why white people insisting that they might know a better way only perpetuates the systematic silencing of black voices.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?
    Nothing against you, SKFM, but this is a grand hypothetical. Do you have any person in mind in terms of a white (or even non-black) person with great insight on how to solve Police Brutality, especially against people of color? Someone who isn't just parroting exactly what BLM is saying on their policy?

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  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    As I said in my prior post, ignoring black voices is kind of a huge part of the problem. This is why who is speaking matters and also why white people insisting that they might know a better way only perpetuates the systematic silencing of black voices.

    If white people could take the the lead and could make major steps to mitigating racism or black people could take the lead and the white people in power never listened to them, which would you prefer?

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Blacksplaining: White people tell black people what they are doing wrong to fix racism in America.

    I think you mean "whitesplaining" (whitesplained the white guy).

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    As I said in my prior post, ignoring black voices is kind of a huge part of the problem. This is why who is speaking matters and also why white people insisting that they might know a better way only perpetuates the systematic silencing of black voices.

    If white people could take the the lead and could make major steps to mitigating racism or black people could take the lead and the white people in power never listened to them, which would you prefer?

    This is a real silly question.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    As I said in my prior post, ignoring black voices is kind of a huge part of the problem. This is why who is speaking matters and also why white people insisting that they might know a better way only perpetuates the systematic silencing of black voices.

    If white people could take the the lead and could make major steps to mitigating racism or black people could take the lead and the white people in power never listened to them, which would you prefer?

    Why do the leaders have to be white to solve this?

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  • VanguardVanguard Je suis le savant au fauteuil sombre. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2015
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Being subject to the discrimination is neither necessary nor sufficient to solving the problem. Someone could have a great insight about solving racism without ever even meeting a black person. If they did, why wouldn't we want to go with that strategy?

    As I said in my prior post, ignoring black voices is kind of a huge part of the problem. This is why who is speaking matters and also why white people insisting that they might know a better way only perpetuates the systematic silencing of black voices.

    If white people could take the the lead and could make major steps to mitigating racism or black people could take the lead and the white people in power never listened to them, which would you prefer?

    I'm really not interested in answering such a loaded question. The reality is that black people have been systematically oppressed by white people in America for hundreds of years, both overtly and more subtlety. The desire for a safe space that allows their voices to be heard without white people shouting, "what about me" is not an unreasonable one.

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  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do.

    They don't need to know it better. They're simply not asking for your advice. Them being black and you being white does not make them better at fixing racism, them being black and you being white makes it not your business.

    Even if there was some unique knowledge you possessed that none of the many very smart black people could conceive of, it would still be polite to wait for them to ask you for it.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do.

    Uh yes, yes they do. Black people live their race every day of their lives. White people, by and large, do not. They've forgotten more about racism than you will ever learn. If you're sincere about wanting to make things better for black people (and a great many other minorities that cohabit this country of ours), your best bet is to defer to their judgement, perspective, and ideas when it comes to fixing issues pertaining to racism.

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  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    There is no such thing as "a great insight about solving racism". Racism will not be "solved" with an "Aha!" moment because fighting racism isn't like inventing an iPhone or fixing a broken traffic light. It is a complex, multifaceted problem that will probably never go away completely until all of humanity is a beige melange after centuries and centuries of interracial reproduction.

    Fighting racism involves undoing centuries of misinformed, misled, and malicious cultural attitudes. The first step towards doing that is recognizing the astonishing variety of racism that currently exists, which requires listening to the lived experiences of its victims.

    Considering the history of race relations in this country, don't you think it makes sense that black people would be suspicious of the notion that white people have their best interests in mind when they say "No, let's do it THIS way"?

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  • MrMisterMrMister A pup must first get in the water to be successful as a seal!Registered User regular
    As far as I recall, there were White figures of great prominence in the anti-Apartheid movement.
    320px-TrevorHuddlestonStatueBedford.JPG

    I'd hesitate to tell them that they were doing it wrong.

    In general, it strikes me that the role of 'allies' in an emancipatory movement strongly depends on the allies and the situation. When black feminists broke ranks with the black civil rights movement to form their own organizations, they did so because the particular black men they were working with were impossible to deal with. There was no profit to be had there, and so they had to pack their bags and take things into their own hands. So that's a case where the movement was better off expelling nominal or potential allies.

    On the other hand, someone like Joe Slovo (another white South African) was willing to sling guns and bombs in defense of pan-ethnic communism, and profitably played a leadership role in the ANC and its military wing. Joe Slovo was not only an important ally, but it was important that he was given a leadership role--because he was good at it.

    Can whites play leadership roles in a movement for black emancipation? Can men play leadership roles in a movement for women's emancipation? Can the rich play leadership roles in a movement for the emancipation of the poor? I don't know if there's a general answer to that question. Show me the rich guy, show me the movement, and we'll see.

    This is a roundabout way of saying that I think it's too quick to tell allies that they should passively listen. Surely, they should listen (everyone should listen). Should listening be the only thing they do? I don't know. That depends on what good ideas they have--and we should be clear, there is a huge diversity of opinion within these emancipatory movements. It is not presumptuous for a e.g. white person to hear something a BLM advocate says and disagree with it. After all, there are probably three other BLM advocates that disagree with it too. So again: whether the white person should disagree comes down to the particular person, and the particular disagreement. I mean, is there something to it?

    Of course, yes, some will operate in bad faith. Then you expel them. People will also disagree about whether it was bad faith, and whether the expulsion was justified. Social movements are hard! Don't see much of a way around it.

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  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    As a very liberal, very white person, I support this movement wholeheartedly. The problem isn't whether or not I support them. The problem is short of donating money I don't really have right now, I'm not sure how I can support them. A lot of minority groups (both ethnicity-oriented and gender/sexual identity-oriented) are (rightly) very distrustful of allies, and I don't know if my place is to show up at rallies, to argue with people on social media, or what.

    One thing I know is not my place is to tell BLM how they should be demonstrating.

    This is a productive conversation to be having; how to be a good ally. If I had to hazard a guess, our step one ought to always be Shut up and listen. PoC/queer/other minority groups have a unique perspective and are in the best position to state their own needs. A well-intentioned reframing of the issues in more comfortable classist terms, for example, is a good way to be a Bad Ally *cough*Bernie*cough*.

    Read up on intersectionality, ableism, tone policing, derailing, white feminism, cultural appropriation, and what it means to check your privilege.

    You are basically outlining an approach that only works for true believers. How can you expect to convince people to support a cause by telling them to shut up and to only support the cause in ways that some subset of its supporters like? It is incredibly alienating and dismissive of anyone who is not a member of the minority group. In my view, and group that is literally not interested in my views is not a group that is interested in my support. Isn't part of inclusion giving everyone the opportunity to be heard?

    I'm not speaking as a person of color. I'm a yuppie white man and am saying that it's not our job to tell black people how to fix racism or what their demands ought to be. BLM doesn't need to hear your views, they need your cooperation or at least your acquiescence.

    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do. A deliberately exclusionary stance just makes it seem like non-black allies are second class allies. Who wants to feel like that? Why should anyone cooperate or acquiesce to a group that they think is making a mistake just because the people acting are members of a minority?



    To be fair, allies whose input is only "But what does this do for me, personally? Nothing? Oh so this is just a collective action problem." are second class allies at best.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    The point of saying that allies need listen is that in many cases, allies don't have the actual experience of the people directly affected, so they need to come to understand that experience. Furthermore, at least in the US, there's the issue of white voices dominating the field, crowding out minority voices. This is why such allies are asked to watch their amplification, and not crowd out these discussions. Finally, there's the issue that King discusses in Letter from a Birmingham Jail - oftentimes, the greatest threat to social movements is not those in opposition, but moderates who try to counsel for a slower pace, or more moderate goals.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    The idea that people who suffer from racism know best how to solve the problem puzzles me. Why would this be so?

    Do victims of bullying know best how to prevent bullying and what motivates people to be bullies? Is the average person more likely to listen to a bullied person's claims about bullying and why people become bullies or a supposedly less biased account from someone who wasn't bullied but still believes its a concern?

    I bring up bullying in particular because both myself and my cousin were both frequent victims (she even dropped out of high school over it). Whenever I tried to talk to my father about my feelings I was told to "grow some balls", and my cousin was accused by both my mother and her mother of being a "drama queen" who always lives in the past over what happened to her and won't get over it. So in my experience people generally don't believe the experiences of others when they don't line up with their own.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    The idea that people who suffer from racism know best how to solve the problem puzzles me. Why would this be so?

    Do victims of bullying know best how to prevent bullying and what motivates people to be bullies? Is the average person more likely to listen to a bullied person's claims about bullying and why people become bullies or a supposedly less biased account from someone who wasn't bullied but still believes its a concern?

    I bring up bullying in particular because both myself and my cousin were both frequent victims (she even dropped out of high school over it). Whenever I tried to talk to my father about my feelings I was told to "grow some balls", and my cousin was accused by both my mother and her mother of being a "drama queen" who always lives in the past over what happened to her and won't get over it. So in my experience people generally don't believe the experiences of others when they don't line up with their own.

    Actually, it's more than that. It's that our culture has a very mistaken picture of bullying. There's a good deal of victim blaming that occurs, as well as a completely mistaken model of why bullying happens (it's very much about social positioning and control.) And people are invested in the status quo, and don't want to upset the cart.

    If this sounds oddly familiar, well...let's just say bullying is a decent analog for how racism works in our society at large...

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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    The idea that people who suffer from racism know best how to solve the problem puzzles me. Why would this be so?

    Do victims of bullying know best how to prevent bullying and what motivates people to be bullies? Is the average person more likely to listen to a bullied person's claims about bullying and why people become bullies or a supposedly less biased account from someone who wasn't bullied but still believes its a concern?

    I bring up bullying in particular because both myself and my cousin were both frequent victims (she even dropped out of high school over it). Whenever I tried to talk to my father about my feelings I was told to "grow some balls", and my cousin was accused by both my mother and her mother of being a "drama queen" who always lives in the past over what happened to her and won't get over it. So in my experience people generally don't believe the experiences of others when they don't line up with their own.
    It's a case of "unknown unknowns" in that there's a bunch of things people who haven't experienced the problem who try to formulate a fix for the problem neglect to include in their fix since they literally don't know about it. This means oftentimes their solutions are full of holes at best and actually make the problem worse at worst. As someone who suffered from bullying I'm sure you had your fill of people telling you solutions of how to stop it, solutions you knew wouldn't work because you'd either already tried them or because just from experience you'd know even attempting what they suggested is impossible or would make things worse. Your story about bullying is reinforcing the point being made, not disagreeing with it as you originally intended.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    MrMister wrote: »
    As far as I recall, there were White figures of great prominence in the anti-Apartheid movement.
    320px-TrevorHuddlestonStatueBedford.JPG

    I'd hesitate to tell them that they were doing it wrong.

    In general, it strikes me that the role of 'allies' in an emancipatory movement strongly depends on the allies and the situation. When black feminists broke ranks with the black civil rights movement to form their own organizations, they did so because the particular black men they were working with were impossible to deal with. There was no profit to be had there, and so they had to pack their bags and take things into their own hands. So that's a case where the movement was better off expelling nominal or potential allies.

    On the other hand, someone like Joe Slovo (another white South African) was willing to sling guns and bombs in defense of pan-ethnic communism, and profitably played a leadership role in the ANC and its military wing. Joe Slovo was not only an important ally, but it was important that he was given a leadership role--because he was good at it.

    Can whites play leadership roles in a movement for black emancipation? Can men play leadership roles in a movement for women's emancipation? Can the rich play leadership roles in a movement for the emancipation of the poor? I don't know if there's a general answer to that question. Show me the rich guy, show me the movement, and we'll see.

    This is a roundabout way of saying that I think it's too quick to tell allies that they should passively listen. Surely, they should listen (everyone should listen). Should listening be the only thing they do? I don't know. That depends on what good ideas they have--and we should be clear, there is a huge diversity of opinion within these emancipatory movements. It is not presumptuous for a e.g. white person to hear something a BLM advocate says and disagree with it. After all, there are probably three other BLM advocates that disagree with it too. So again: whether the white person should disagree comes down to the particular person, and the particular disagreement. I mean, is there something to it?

    Of course, yes, some will operate in bad faith. Then you expel them. People will also disagree about whether it was bad faith, and whether the expulsion was justified. Social movements are hard! Don't see much of a way around it.

    I think you are correct but the issue is that it's not just bad faith, but also just plain not realizing you are asserting your opinion over the people the movement is about. (privilege and all that) And it can be very difficult to get support from the dominant group without that happening alot. Which is why many people get to the point where they just wanna tell that group "Piss off, this is our movement".

    Like, it's technically true but in practice it's very difficult to deal with. Especially for issues where the sides and the battlefield are less clear cut.

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do.

    Uh yes, yes they do. Black people live their race every day of their lives. White people, by and large, do not. They've forgotten more about racism than you will ever learn. If you're sincere about wanting to make things better for black people (and a great many other minorities that cohabit this country of ours), your best bet is to defer to their judgement, perspective, and ideas when it comes to fixing issues pertaining to racism.

    But then the converse is true. While black people understand very well how racism impacts their lives, and how proposed actions will impact their community their 'white allies' are more likely to understand how other white people will perceive the requests and attitude of the black people.

    This campaign for equal rights does not exist in a vacuum. It is not just about having good ideas, and being allowed to express them. It's about changing hearts, minds and LAWS. So if you have the best idea in the world, which would totally work, and it utterly enrages everyone outside your community and they are turned against you for having it then its an idea that can't work.

    It is a grand thing to say that, for example, protests are supposed to inconvenience people so who cares what uppity white people think of us stopping them going to the fair if all you want to do is protest. But if you upset all those people, you'd better have made up for it somewhere else. The net effect of support of every action you take needs to be positive. Piss off 100 high schoolers, you'd better have impressed 110 others somewhere else.

    This seems mercenary, but that's just the way things are. It's why the recent trend of 'building better allies' among many movements is self destructive if not done very well. Black lives matter might not mean 'Black lives matter more than white' but if the people you are trying to persuade think it does, then you have failed before you even started.

    It's easy to criticize and say 'Hey tbloxham, equal rights isn't about making angry white straight dudes happy! It's not my job to make them feel comfortable with my forms of protest' but if you just upset everyone what have you actually achieved? Someone needs to make those angry white straight dudes happy with the situation, otherwise they won't let you get anywhere. So either black people need to do it, or their 'white allies' need to do it.

    edit - Unless you believe that the situation has degraded to apartheid levels, in which case we're not talking protest. We're talking revolution. But I really don't think that's true. The path forward is still through persuasion and dialogue.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do.

    Uh yes, yes they do. Black people live their race every day of their lives. White people, by and large, do not. They've forgotten more about racism than you will ever learn. If you're sincere about wanting to make things better for black people (and a great many other minorities that cohabit this country of ours), your best bet is to defer to their judgement, perspective, and ideas when it comes to fixing issues pertaining to racism.

    But then the converse is true. While black people understand very well how racism impacts their lives, and how proposed actions will impact their community their 'white allies' are more likely to understand how other white people will perceive the requests and attitude of the black people.

    This campaign for equal rights does not exist in a vacuum. It is not just about having good ideas, and being allowed to express them. It's about changing hearts, minds and LAWS. So if you have the best idea in the world, which would totally work, and it utterly enrages everyone outside your community and they are turned against you for having it then its an idea that can't work.

    It is a grand thing to say that, for example, protests are supposed to inconvenience people so who cares what uppity white people think of us stopping them going to the fair if all you want to do is protest. But if you upset all those people, you'd better have made up for it somewhere else. The net effect of support of every action you take needs to be positive. Piss off 100 high schoolers, you'd better have impressed 110 others somewhere else.

    This seems mercenary, but that's just the way things are. It's why the recent trend of 'building better allies' among many movements is self destructive if not done very well. Black lives matter might not mean 'Black lives matter more than white' but if the people you are trying to persuade think it does, then you have failed before you even started.

    It's easy to criticize and say 'Hey tbloxham, equal rights isn't about making angry white straight dudes happy! It's not my job to make them feel comfortable with my forms of protest' but if you just upset everyone what have you actually achieved? Someone needs to make those angry white straight dudes happy with the situation, otherwise they won't let you get anywhere. So either black people need to do it, or their 'white allies' need to do it.

    edit - Unless you believe that the situation has degraded to apartheid levels, in which case we're not talking protest. We're talking revolution. But I really don't think that's true. The path forward is still through persuasion and dialogue.

    ...you should really read Letter from a Birmingham Jail, as it's a pretty pointed response to your argument.

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  • MrMisterMrMister A pup must first get in the water to be successful as a seal!Registered User regular
    edited August 2015
    ...you should really read Letter from a Birmingham Jail, as it's a pretty pointed response to your argument.

    King's position was more practical than you're giving it credit for. It's true that King expressed frustration with a specific breed of white moderate which was more invested in peace and quiet (for themselves) than in justice for all. However, he also quite astutely realized that the black civil rights movement vitally depended on the good will of white moderates more generally. Here, for instance, is another King quote:
    The election of President Johnson, whatever else it might have been, was also an alliance of Negro and white for common interests. Perceptive Negro leadership understands that each of the major accomplishments in 1964 was the product of Negro militancy on a level that could mobilize and maintain white support. Negroes acting alone and in a hostile posture toward all whites will do nothing more than demonstrate that their conditions of life are unendurable, and that they are unbearably angry. But this has already been widely dramatized. On the other hand, whites who insist upon exclusively determining the time schedule of change will also fail, however wise and generous they feel themselves to be. A genuine Negro-white unity is the tactical foundation upon which past and future progress depends.

    Again, King rejects the white moderate who tries to exclusively determine the schedule of progress. Nonetheless, he is also explicit that white support is vital for any actual change. Civil rights victories require a genuine racial unity--at least in this, our largely white country, 'going at it alone' isn't viable. In other words, I think King was alive to the sort of concern tbloxham raises: moral purity of essence doesn't get you anywhere, at the end of the day, without stable majoritarian coalitions. The conditions of black Americans in the South were always morally intolerable. But it was only in those periods where they were able to mobilize white Northern support that there were great upheavals for justice.

    MrMister on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    But just because they are black and I am white that doesn't mean that they know how to fix the problems of racism better than I do.

    Uh yes, yes they do. Black people live their race every day of their lives. White people, by and large, do not. They've forgotten more about racism than you will ever learn. If you're sincere about wanting to make things better for black people (and a great many other minorities that cohabit this country of ours), your best bet is to defer to their judgement, perspective, and ideas when it comes to fixing issues pertaining to racism.

    But then the converse is true. While black people understand very well how racism impacts their lives, and how proposed actions will impact their community their 'white allies' are more likely to understand how other white people will perceive the requests and attitude of the black people.

    This campaign for equal rights does not exist in a vacuum. It is not just about having good ideas, and being allowed to express them. It's about changing hearts, minds and LAWS. So if you have the best idea in the world, which would totally work, and it utterly enrages everyone outside your community and they are turned against you for having it then its an idea that can't work.

    It is a grand thing to say that, for example, protests are supposed to inconvenience people so who cares what uppity white people think of us stopping them going to the fair if all you want to do is protest. But if you upset all those people, you'd better have made up for it somewhere else. The net effect of support of every action you take needs to be positive. Piss off 100 high schoolers, you'd better have impressed 110 others somewhere else.

    This seems mercenary, but that's just the way things are. It's why the recent trend of 'building better allies' among many movements is self destructive if not done very well. Black lives matter might not mean 'Black lives matter more than white' but if the people you are trying to persuade think it does, then you have failed before you even started.

    It's easy to criticize and say 'Hey tbloxham, equal rights isn't about making angry white straight dudes happy! It's not my job to make them feel comfortable with my forms of protest' but if you just upset everyone what have you actually achieved? Someone needs to make those angry white straight dudes happy with the situation, otherwise they won't let you get anywhere. So either black people need to do it, or their 'white allies' need to do it.

    edit - Unless you believe that the situation has degraded to apartheid levels, in which case we're not talking protest. We're talking revolution. But I really don't think that's true. The path forward is still through persuasion and dialogue.

    ...you should really read Letter from a Birmingham Jail, as it's a pretty pointed response to your argument.

    I have, and while my opinion on this counts for pretty much nothing. I don't agree. I think that while it probably hurts far more to see your allies flounder and fail to help you, and maybe yes, their failed attempts at inclusion might do more harm than good or hurt more than the attacks of the active bigot they are at least trying. They want what you want, they just don't know how to get it.

    But they aren't your problem. And pissing them off doesn't help one bit. The active bigot migt be easier to deal with, but they are the ones standing in your way. And they are the ones that your floundering allies have some ideas about how to reach. So maybe do force your allies to be better, but not at the cost of losing them, but remember that you have plenty of real opponents to worry about.

    Being told 'we can't do this yet. You need to wait' is hard. It may even be wrong. Your allies don't have the everyday investment in the problem you do, so perhaps they don't understand how bad it is. But YOU aren't exposed to the true opinions of your real opponents every day. The allies can't understand the costs being paid each day, but the oppressed can't understand the true scope of opposition to change.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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