Yeah, with things like Overwatch and everything else, I gave up hope for a WCIV years ago. I was happy enough that we got the Starcraft II Nova missions, as peripheral as they were. I'll very likely buy Reforged once the bugs are ironed out and the dust has settled a bit. But WCIV isn't really a worthwhile endeavor from a business standpoint, I suspect, and is going into "but Half-Life 3!" territory.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Maybe we'll get Warcraft: Thrall, a VR game where you finally get to play as Green Jesus again in ten years.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
edited January 2020
Yeah, RTS is kind of a dead genre (sadly). I very much doubt we'll see a WarCraft 4 at this point, at least without it being a sequel to WoW or something. I don't think the Activision side would allow them to make something they would assume is gonna fail.
RTS is dead. The next StarCraft will be in some other genre. They keep trying to get other SC games off the ground and then they keep canceling those projects.
I don't think Blizzard knows what it's doing anymore.
I've been seeing a ton of reports lately that the Overwatch League is collapsing and imploding on itself.
Edit: Even if you weren't a fan of his writing and reuse of themes and motifs, I think it is very clear that without Metzen at the helm, they are floundering.
Lucascraft on
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
RTS is dead. The next StarCraft will be in some other genre. They keep trying to get other SC games off the ground and then they keep canceling those projects.
I don't think Blizzard knows what it's doing anymore.
I've been seeing a ton of reports lately that the Overwatch League is collapsing and imploding on itself.
Edit: Even if you weren't a fan of his writing and reuse of themes and motifs, I think it is very clear that without Metzen at the helm, they are floundering.
I still very much wonder if Metzen leaving had to do with the direction the company was going in. The rats fleeing the sinking ship as it were...
RTS is dead. The next StarCraft will be in some other genre. They keep trying to get other SC games off the ground and then they keep canceling those projects.
I don't think Blizzard knows what it's doing anymore.
I've been seeing a ton of reports lately that the Overwatch League is collapsing and imploding on itself.
Edit: Even if you weren't a fan of his writing and reuse of themes and motifs, I think it is very clear that without Metzen at the helm, they are floundering.
To be fair Blizzard has always cancelled games far into development, that's not new. For OWL they just announced limited hero pools and more frequent balance changes to shake up the meta, which pros seem happy about.
I never had a problem with Metzen's stories. I enjoyed them. They were just big dumb summer blockbuster movie plots. But that's all I really want. I was even ok with his reuse of archetypes and specifically the fallen/corrupted hero motif. I was ok with it because the stories were fun and entertaining even if they were all mostly the same tale told in different genres.
At least he brought a clear, concise vision, and he could deliver a product.
This is the first time I've heard Metzen described as something more core to blizzard's past success and current failure than just being their main story guy. They were floundering before he left too. He wasn't some sort of magical auteur heart of the company that will cause it to shrivel and die by its removal.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
I thought Metzen was just lead story stuff? That was going downhill long before he left.
I believe he was lead creative director.
I know someone who worked there at the time. There were a lot of rumblings about downsizing the story department and other directional changes to what kind of games they were making (i.e. heavy multiplayer focus, etc)
I never had a problem with Metzen's stories. I enjoyed them. They were just big dumb summer blockbuster movie plots. But that's all I really want. I was even ok with his reuse of archetypes and specifically the fallen/corrupted hero motif. I was ok with it because the stories were fun and entertaining even if they were all mostly the same tale told in different genres.
At least he brought a clear, concise vision, and he could deliver a product.
Same actually. Stuff may have been basic but they were fun. I enjoyed the heck out of them.
Say what you will about the quality of the writing, but people got deeply invested into those stories, so they must have been doing something right.
In the end of the day, people have gotten deeply invested into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. People want to be entertained, and it's not like they're expecting undefinable perfection.
(I say this as someone who still enjoys reading the ultra-pulp that is the Diablo and Warcraft II manual.)
Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
RTS isn't a dead genre, and inasmuch it's been neglected in the major industry spaces, I think that says more about the people in charge than it does about RTS games and their popularity and/or profitability.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
It's really hard to get into the RTS genre now because the only games anyone still plays are absolute masterpieces, so anything else has to be trying something totally left-field or it's just going to be abandoned. Tooth and Claw did pretty well for a while, for its scale I mean.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
RTS isn't a dead genre, and inasmuch it's been neglected in the major industry spaces, I think that says more about the people in charge than it does about RTS games and their popularity and/or profitability.
I mean, no one is making them, thus it is dead :P It's not like it couldn't be revived, but AAA has no interest it seems. Maybe the indies will pick up the slack.
Edit: Even Blizzard hasn't made one for quite awhile (wc3 reforged/sc remastered not counting :P) I suspect if they didn't have the obligation to do all three campaigns/finish the story, they would have been done with the genre at least before Legacy of the Void. Probably around Heart of the Swarm-ish timeframe.
It's really hard to get into the RTS genre now because the only games anyone still plays are absolute masterpieces, so anything else has to be trying something totally left-field or it's just going to be abandoned. Tooth and Claw did pretty well for a while, for its scale I mean.
No genre is ever truly dead, but it's not a genre that warrants AAA production values anymore. Or at least no one has figured out how to do it lately.
"They Are Billions" is a good indie RTS. It has all the staples of a very standard RTS: base building, research structures and tech tree, exploration, fog of war. But what it does is make it so the entire game is defensive. Your goal is to survive, and not to raze every last enemy structure to the ground. They took standard core RTS and basically turned it into a survival game. And it's brilliant. So there is still room for innovation.
But yeah, the genre is pretty much dead. The only games coming out in the RTS genre other than a very small handful of indies are just remakes of classics. WC3 Reforged. Starcraft Remastered. AOE2 HD Definitive Edition. Halo Wars Remastered. Command & Conquer HD.
You want to look at a "dead" genre, look at civilian flight simulation, which used to be a very large, technology-pushing genre (from which military flight simulation was a spin-off).
Now it's sole modern incarnation is a single upcoming title published by Microsoft. Who are also responsible for the last major flight simulator that was published.
I don't think RTS is dead. I think Starcraft is dead.
Starcraft's primacy over the genre is hurting the genre. Another reason why WC3R succeeding would have been interesting to see, since the definitively most accessible RTS would be released to a whole new generation with enthusiasm
As far as Metzen, yeah he's not writing the code, but motivated, invested, talented directors with good taste can drive games from good to great to legendary, and that is what Metzen and Morhaime did at Blizzard, along with others. It's not an accident that Overwatch succeeds with a guy like Kaplan at the helm. Kaplan is an OG with real talent and passion. They could put him in charge of a Solitaire clone and it would be one of the best Solitaire game you could make
But almost everyone else from Blizzard's glory days is gone, so this is what you get
I want them to use that Flight Sim tech in every game, ever.
Anywho, I think a big problem that cropped up with Blizzard's writing was the need for every sequel to push the envolope on the scope of things, but it was always done in a way that made the previous games feel trivial. This isnt a unique phenomena to Blizzard games, but I feel they went down that rabbit hole too many times.
Like in Diablo, the prime evils get betrayed by the lesser evils and banished to Sanctuary where they're eventually encased in soul stones.
In Diablo II it turns out that PSYCH, the prime evils were in on it the whole time and it was just a plan to get ahold of the powerful soulstones so they can corrupt the worldstone protecting Sanctuary. Not only do you have to fight two lesser evils, but all THREE prime evils now.
Diablo III, it turns out THAT whole thing was a ruse to manipulate all seven evils to be contained within a black soul stone so they can be incarnated with the daughter of Diablo as a SUPER Diablo as he wars on Heaven.
The entire Diablo series is basically playing into the bad guys plan over and over again.
Starcraft starts off as a war between two scion races of a extinct superpower, with humanity caught in the middle as they vie for control of a sector of space. Starcraft II basically goes "All that? Secretly a plan by an evil Xel'naga to create a evil race of super beings to take over creation with."
Warcraft 1/2 - Orcs invade human lands
Warcraft 3 - Actually all that was just the latest step in a plan by a demonic army that has been trying to invade Azeroth for thousands of years.
World of Warcraft - Remember the Old Gods, enemies of the titans (of whom the leader of the demons is one)? The ones that kill and infect planets? Yeah, they're just the chicken shit minions of THE VOID.
Had Overwatch 1 had a story, I guarrentee Overwatch 2 would be about how there was a secret evil that was truly responsible for breaking up Overwatch and now the good guys and bad guys have to band together to take them out or some shit.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Warcraft 1/2 - Orcs invade human lands
Warcraft 3 - Actually all that was just the latest step in a plan by a demonic army that has been trying to invade Azeroth for thousands of years.
World of Warcraft - Remember the Old Gods, enemies of the titans (of whom the leader of the demons is one)? The ones that kill and infect planets? Yeah, they're just the chicken shit minions of THE VOID.
Had Overwatch 1 had a story, I guarrentee Overwatch 2 would be about how there was a secret evil that was truly responsible for breaking up Overwatch and now the good guys and bad guys have to band together to take them out or some shit.
this is not a new storytelling device and it's hardly unique to Blizzard... honestly WC3's plot is... pretty reasonable. it wasn't until halfway through WoW that shit really flew off the rails and we find out that we're footsoldiers in a trans-dimensional galactic space war from space.. in my opinion it retroactively makes some of WC3-early WoW's plot seem ridiculous
but, as far as not being unique to Blizzard... just look at DBZ.
DBZ Season 1: Vegeta is the most powerful thing alive and he can point his finger at an entire planet and death star it instantly without breaking a sweat, the earth is DOOMED
DBZ Season 2: actually Vegeta is just a minor employee for a company of space mercenaries run by Frieza, and he kind of hates his job, Frieza is ACTUALLY the most powerful thing alive, lol
DBZ Season 3: Frieza dies in 1.7 seconds to a nameless purple hair guy we've never seen before, oh and these robots some regular ass dude on earth made are stronger than all the preceding combined
Warcraft 1/2 - Orcs invade human lands
Warcraft 3 - Actually all that was just the latest step in a plan by a demonic army that has been trying to invade Azeroth for thousands of years.
World of Warcraft - Remember the Old Gods, enemies of the titans (of whom the leader of the demons is one)? The ones that kill and infect planets? Yeah, they're just the chicken shit minions of THE VOID.
Had Overwatch 1 had a story, I guarrentee Overwatch 2 would be about how there was a secret evil that was truly responsible for breaking up Overwatch and now the good guys and bad guys have to band together to take them out or some shit.
this is not a new storytelling device and it's hardly unique to Blizzard...
I literally said that in my post. My point was that they go to the well too often. They never let anything simmer for long.
They briefly approached this with the Nova missions in SC2, which were really good as showing the galaxy moving on, and that there can still be stakes even if those stakes aren't suddenly higher than they were in the previous story. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have any inclination to follow up on that, so whatever.
I want them to use that Flight Sim tech in every game, ever.
Anywho, I think a big problem that cropped up with Blizzard's writing was the need for every sequel to push the envolope on the scope of things, but it was always done in a way that made the previous games feel trivial. This isnt a unique phenomena to Blizzard games, but I feel they went down that rabbit hole too many times.
Like in Diablo, the prime evils get betrayed by the lesser evils and banished to Sanctuary where they're eventually encased in soul stones.
In Diablo II it turns out that PSYCH, the prime evils were in on it the whole time and it was just a plan to get ahold of the powerful soulstones so they can corrupt the worldstone protecting Sanctuary. Not only do you have to fight two lesser evils, but all THREE prime evils now.
Diablo III, it turns out THAT whole thing was a ruse to manipulate all seven evils to be contained within a black soul stone so they can be incarnated with the daughter of Diablo as a SUPER Diablo as he wars on Heaven.
The entire Diablo series is basically playing into the bad guys plan over and over again.
Starcraft starts off as a war between two scion races of a extinct superpower, with humanity caught in the middle as they vie for control of a sector of space. Starcraft II basically goes "All that? Secretly a plan by an evil Xel'naga to create a evil race of super beings to take over creation with."
Warcraft 1/2 - Orcs invade human lands
Warcraft 3 - Actually all that was just the latest step in a plan by a demonic army that has been trying to invade Azeroth for thousands of years.
World of Warcraft - Remember the Old Gods, enemies of the titans (of whom the leader of the demons is one)? The ones that kill and infect planets? Yeah, they're just the chicken shit minions of THE VOID.
Had Overwatch 1 had a story, I guarrentee Overwatch 2 would be about how there was a secret evil that was truly responsible for breaking up Overwatch and now the good guys and bad guys have to band together to take them out or some shit.
Yeah all of Blizzard's stories are formulaic to the point of absurdity. Just video-game-ass video games. But is that a bad thing? Like Diablo 3 might be their stupidest story outside of WoW, but I still enjoyed the campaign, and would even say I was still more engaged than average by the story. When you come to a Blizzard game you're going to get some feel-good schlock wrapped around a usually very high quality video game. That's how they've always done it, and it works.
The story in diablo 3, and how blatently obvious the player was just handing the keys (literally the most important item in all of creation) over to someone who is suspicious in the very least, and is obvious actively working for the demons if you pay attention to the reading materials available in the game, really soured me on that game. Especially given how it leads directly to Leah not only dying, but being utterly obliterated from existence.
Warcraft 1/2 - Orcs invade human lands
Warcraft 3 - Actually all that was just the latest step in a plan by a demonic army that has been trying to invade Azeroth for thousands of years.
World of Warcraft - Remember the Old Gods, enemies of the titans (of whom the leader of the demons is one)? The ones that kill and infect planets? Yeah, they're just the chicken shit minions of THE VOID.
Had Overwatch 1 had a story, I guarrentee Overwatch 2 would be about how there was a secret evil that was truly responsible for breaking up Overwatch and now the good guys and bad guys have to band together to take them out or some shit.
this is not a new storytelling device and it's hardly unique to Blizzard... honestly WC3's plot is... pretty reasonable. it wasn't until halfway through WoW that shit really flew off the rails and we find out that we're footsoldiers in a trans-dimensional galactic space war from space.. in my opinion it retroactively makes some of WC3-early WoW's plot seem ridiculous
but, as far as not being unique to Blizzard... just look at DBZ.
DBZ Season 1: Vegeta is the most powerful thing alive and he can point his finger at an entire planet and death star it instantly without breaking a sweat, the earth is DOOMED
DBZ Season 2: actually Vegeta is just a minor employee for a company of space mercenaries run by Frieza, and he kind of hates his job, Frieza is ACTUALLY the most powerful thing alive, lol
DBZ Season 3: Frieza dies in 1.7 seconds to a nameless purple hair guy we've never seen before, oh and these robots some regular ass dude on earth made are stronger than all the preceding combined
Was the script changed at all for Reforged? I've played through the WC3 campaign a number of times, and I was fairly certain that in the second mission of the prologue, Thrall said "Damn it, Grom, where are you?". But when I played the Reforged prologue the other night, I noticed he said "Damn it, Hellscream, where are you?".
Am I mistaken? I mean, I certainly admit I could be. But it just doesn't sound the same to my ear. It seems like a really silly thing to change, though?
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
They did change all "Groms" to "Hellscream", yes. Before this, they had dropped the "Grom" in favor of "Grommash" in Warlords of Draenor. It's a strange thing.
I thought that they used "Grommash" in Warlords to differentiate between real-Grom (who is dead) and alternate-Grom (who is alive).
After Warlords was introduced to the lore, the WoW universe is basically now a comic book multiverse, and the World of Warcraft that we're playing on would be like Earth-1 if you use DC terminology or 616 if you go with Marvel.
It's stupid, and I'm still mad that they did that. But it's whatever. It doesn't matter in the day-to-day anymore in WoW, since each expansion is a self contained ecosphere that gets abandoned the second a new expansion comes out.
But anyway, back to the point, it is weird to me that they now just call him "Hellscream" because Grom is from 616 and Grommash is from Azeroth-B or whatever you want to call it.
I guess I can't think of any reason why they'd change the script, though?
Like you can call him Grom, Grommash, or Hellscream, it doesn't matter; it's all the same guy. It's like you can call me Nate, Nathan, or ducks. I'll respond to any of them.
But to go back and change all instances of Nate to ducks seems ... totally unnecessary?
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I don't think Blizzard knows what it's doing anymore.
I've been seeing a ton of reports lately that the Overwatch League is collapsing and imploding on itself.
Edit: Even if you weren't a fan of his writing and reuse of themes and motifs, I think it is very clear that without Metzen at the helm, they are floundering.
I still very much wonder if Metzen leaving had to do with the direction the company was going in. The rats fleeing the sinking ship as it were...
To be fair Blizzard has always cancelled games far into development, that's not new. For OWL they just announced limited hero pools and more frequent balance changes to shake up the meta, which pros seem happy about.
At least he brought a clear, concise vision, and he could deliver a product.
I believe he was lead creative director.
I know someone who worked there at the time. There were a lot of rumblings about downsizing the story department and other directional changes to what kind of games they were making (i.e. heavy multiplayer focus, etc)
Same actually. Stuff may have been basic but they were fun. I enjoyed the heck out of them.
In the end of the day, people have gotten deeply invested into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. People want to be entertained, and it's not like they're expecting undefinable perfection.
(I say this as someone who still enjoys reading the ultra-pulp that is the Diablo and Warcraft II manual.)
I assume Riot will make a spiritual WC4 before Blizzard will.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
My main takeaway from visiting his Twitter is that he plays Warhammer 40k and it sounds like he plays Imperial Guard.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
My takeaway is that he says "Y'all" on Twitter.
Fixed
I mean, no one is making them, thus it is dead :P It's not like it couldn't be revived, but AAA has no interest it seems. Maybe the indies will pick up the slack.
Edit: Even Blizzard hasn't made one for quite awhile (wc3 reforged/sc remastered not counting :P) I suspect if they didn't have the obligation to do all three campaigns/finish the story, they would have been done with the genre at least before Legacy of the Void. Probably around Heart of the Swarm-ish timeframe.
No genre is ever truly dead, but it's not a genre that warrants AAA production values anymore. Or at least no one has figured out how to do it lately.
But yeah, the genre is pretty much dead. The only games coming out in the RTS genre other than a very small handful of indies are just remakes of classics. WC3 Reforged. Starcraft Remastered. AOE2 HD Definitive Edition. Halo Wars Remastered. Command & Conquer HD.
Now it's sole modern incarnation is a single upcoming title published by Microsoft. Who are also responsible for the last major flight simulator that was published.
(But what a title.)
Starcraft's primacy over the genre is hurting the genre. Another reason why WC3R succeeding would have been interesting to see, since the definitively most accessible RTS would be released to a whole new generation with enthusiasm
As far as Metzen, yeah he's not writing the code, but motivated, invested, talented directors with good taste can drive games from good to great to legendary, and that is what Metzen and Morhaime did at Blizzard, along with others. It's not an accident that Overwatch succeeds with a guy like Kaplan at the helm. Kaplan is an OG with real talent and passion. They could put him in charge of a Solitaire clone and it would be one of the best Solitaire game you could make
But almost everyone else from Blizzard's glory days is gone, so this is what you get
Anywho, I think a big problem that cropped up with Blizzard's writing was the need for every sequel to push the envolope on the scope of things, but it was always done in a way that made the previous games feel trivial. This isnt a unique phenomena to Blizzard games, but I feel they went down that rabbit hole too many times.
Like in Diablo, the prime evils get betrayed by the lesser evils and banished to Sanctuary where they're eventually encased in soul stones.
In Diablo II it turns out that PSYCH, the prime evils were in on it the whole time and it was just a plan to get ahold of the powerful soulstones so they can corrupt the worldstone protecting Sanctuary. Not only do you have to fight two lesser evils, but all THREE prime evils now.
Diablo III, it turns out THAT whole thing was a ruse to manipulate all seven evils to be contained within a black soul stone so they can be incarnated with the daughter of Diablo as a SUPER Diablo as he wars on Heaven.
The entire Diablo series is basically playing into the bad guys plan over and over again.
Starcraft starts off as a war between two scion races of a extinct superpower, with humanity caught in the middle as they vie for control of a sector of space. Starcraft II basically goes "All that? Secretly a plan by an evil Xel'naga to create a evil race of super beings to take over creation with."
Warcraft 1/2 - Orcs invade human lands
Warcraft 3 - Actually all that was just the latest step in a plan by a demonic army that has been trying to invade Azeroth for thousands of years.
World of Warcraft - Remember the Old Gods, enemies of the titans (of whom the leader of the demons is one)? The ones that kill and infect planets? Yeah, they're just the chicken shit minions of THE VOID.
Had Overwatch 1 had a story, I guarrentee Overwatch 2 would be about how there was a secret evil that was truly responsible for breaking up Overwatch and now the good guys and bad guys have to band together to take them out or some shit.
Fixed, fixed.
“Y’all” is singular.
this is not a new storytelling device and it's hardly unique to Blizzard... honestly WC3's plot is... pretty reasonable. it wasn't until halfway through WoW that shit really flew off the rails and we find out that we're footsoldiers in a trans-dimensional galactic space war from space.. in my opinion it retroactively makes some of WC3-early WoW's plot seem ridiculous
but, as far as not being unique to Blizzard... just look at DBZ.
DBZ Season 1: Vegeta is the most powerful thing alive and he can point his finger at an entire planet and death star it instantly without breaking a sweat, the earth is DOOMED
DBZ Season 2: actually Vegeta is just a minor employee for a company of space mercenaries run by Frieza, and he kind of hates his job, Frieza is ACTUALLY the most powerful thing alive, lol
DBZ Season 3: Frieza dies in 1.7 seconds to a nameless purple hair guy we've never seen before, oh and these robots some regular ass dude on earth made are stronger than all the preceding combined
repeat until forever
I literally said that in my post. My point was that they go to the well too often. They never let anything simmer for long.
They briefly approached this with the Nova missions in SC2, which were really good as showing the galaxy moving on, and that there can still be stakes even if those stakes aren't suddenly higher than they were in the previous story. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have any inclination to follow up on that, so whatever.
Yeah all of Blizzard's stories are formulaic to the point of absurdity. Just video-game-ass video games. But is that a bad thing? Like Diablo 3 might be their stupidest story outside of WoW, but I still enjoyed the campaign, and would even say I was still more engaged than average by the story. When you come to a Blizzard game you're going to get some feel-good schlock wrapped around a usually very high quality video game. That's how they've always done it, and it works.
they even did "CORRUPTION" with Goku Black!
Am I mistaken? I mean, I certainly admit I could be. But it just doesn't sound the same to my ear. It seems like a really silly thing to change, though?
After Warlords was introduced to the lore, the WoW universe is basically now a comic book multiverse, and the World of Warcraft that we're playing on would be like Earth-1 if you use DC terminology or 616 if you go with Marvel.
It's stupid, and I'm still mad that they did that. But it's whatever. It doesn't matter in the day-to-day anymore in WoW, since each expansion is a self contained ecosphere that gets abandoned the second a new expansion comes out.
But anyway, back to the point, it is weird to me that they now just call him "Hellscream" because Grom is from 616 and Grommash is from Azeroth-B or whatever you want to call it.
Like you can call him Grom, Grommash, or Hellscream, it doesn't matter; it's all the same guy. It's like you can call me Nate, Nathan, or ducks. I'll respond to any of them.
But to go back and change all instances of Nate to ducks seems ... totally unnecessary?