Out of curiosity, I'd be really interested to know what everyone here considers like, the most rogue-like. The roguest of games. In like, the past five years lets say, so that y'all can't just say Rogue.
For me, the main components are:
-Permadeath. Meaning actual progress reset. (Note that I think easing up on this can actually make a game a lot more fun, depending on the game)
-Random stage generation
-Emphasis on improving skill to progress. Victory should be possible from the very first round if you have the skills for it.
Spelunky would probably be the best template that comes to mind. I've never actually played or seen Rogue
Spelunky allows you to pay for level shortcuts
This strict set of definitions also excludes crypt of the necrodancer, binding of isaad, nuclear throne, and many other games usually thought of as roguelikes
Taking Shortcuts in spelunky means you can't do a hell run. They're just training wheels.
And those qualifiers do not exclude Isaac or Necrodancer. If you're good enough you absolutely can beat those games from thw outset.
you gain permanent progress in both of those games
Neither of them require those things in order to beat the game.
I've played Isaac a bunch, and at this point I could reset my data in Isaac and have a very good chance at beating Mom in one go.
Rogue Legacy pretty much forces you to level up in order to get anywhere. You're not really expected to play it any other way.
Furthermore, 99% of the unlockable items in Isaac only have a chance to show up, and you can easily go a ton of runs without seeing anything good even if you've unlocked everything.
As opposed to your character permanently keeping everything you've unlocked, between runs.
I mean, if that distinction isn't a really big one to you, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, here?
I'm done here
you're going to see more and more games like rogue legacy, and people are going to continue to call them rogue likes, because to a large group of people that has understandable connotations
you can fight against it every time if you would like
for me when someone told me rogue legacy was a rogue like it gave me a set of expectations and it lived up to those mechanics
its a perfectly useful term to describe the game, and people will continue to use it to do so
I only regret I engaged in the conversation
You could have just said "I disagree" and that'd be the end of it.
Instead you make this big dramatic exit over a discussion about video games.
Ain't like anyone forced you to make this personal, dude.
typically when people are told 'no you can't use that word for this, you are wrong', I tend to take it personally
I should try to ignore it in the future
Which is funny because my opening statement wasn't that you cannot call it that, but that I don't call it that.
I even went on, in that statement, to say that most of the games I label as roguelikes aren't technically roguelikes.
I'm currently trying to come up with a unifying system based on categorizing our descriptors as well
So in the style of the previous example I used, the anatomy of Spelunky is:
Graphical: Side Scrolling
Gameplay: Platformer
Progression: Rogue-like
I'm thinking of switching out graphical for something that could also refer to other sensory inputs - music and sound, most notably
Also changing progression to something starting with G, for obvious reasons
The core idea is that every game would have to have at least one of each of those, but could have many, many more
Yeah, graphical doesn't feel right, but I'm struggling to think of what you'd put there. Because there's camera orientation (top-down, sidescrolling, 3D-fixed-perspective, 3D free control) but then sometimes there's a turn-based/real-time distinction. And what would you call Asteroids-like controls where the screen is fixed but you can both move in x and y and pivot?
Out of curiosity, I'd be really interested to know what everyone here considers like, the most rogue-like. The roguest of games. In like, the past five years lets say, so that y'all can't just say Rogue.
For me, the main components are:
-Permadeath. Meaning actual progress reset. (Note that I think easing up on this can actually make a game a lot more fun, depending on the game)
-Random stage generation
-Emphasis on improving skill to progress. Victory should be possible from the very first round if you have the skills for it.
Spelunky would probably be the best template that comes to mind. I've never actually played or seen Rogue
Spelunky allows you to pay for level shortcuts
This strict set of definitions also excludes crypt of the necrodancer, binding of isaad, nuclear throne, and many other games usually thought of as roguelikes
Taking Shortcuts in spelunky means you can't do a hell run. They're just training wheels.
And those qualifiers do not exclude Isaac or Necrodancer. If you're good enough you absolutely can beat those games from thw outset.
you gain permanent progress in both of those games
Neither of them require those things in order to beat the game.
I've played Isaac a bunch, and at this point I could reset my data in Isaac and have a very good chance at beating Mom in one go.
Rogue Legacy pretty much forces you to level up in order to get anywhere. You're not really expected to play it any other way.
Furthermore, 99% of the unlockable items in Isaac only have a chance to show up, and you can easily go a ton of runs without seeing anything good even if you've unlocked everything.
As opposed to your character permanently keeping everything you've unlocked, between runs.
I mean, if that distinction isn't a really big one to you, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, here?
I'm done here
you're going to see more and more games like rogue legacy, and people are going to continue to call them rogue likes, because to a large group of people that has understandable connotations
you can fight against it every time if you would like
for me when someone told me rogue legacy was a rogue like it gave me a set of expectations and it lived up to those mechanics
its a perfectly useful term to describe the game, and people will continue to use it to do so
I only regret I engaged in the conversation
You could have just said "I disagree" and that'd be the end of it.
Instead you make this big dramatic exit over a discussion about video games.
Ain't like anyone forced you to make this personal, dude.
typically when people are told 'no you can't use that word for this, you are wrong', I tend to take it personally
I should try to ignore it in the future
Which is funny because my opening statement wasn't that you cannot call it that, but that I don't call it that.
I even went on, in that statement, to say that most of the games I label as roguelikes aren't technically roguelikes.
So uh, I dunno what to tell you.
I am sorry I snapped at you, I'm gonna drop it now though
Out of curiosity, I'd be really interested to know what everyone here considers like, the most rogue-like. The roguest of games. In like, the past five years lets say, so that y'all can't just say Rogue.
For me, the main components are:
-Permadeath. Meaning actual progress reset. (Note that I think easing up on this can actually make a game a lot more fun, depending on the game)
-Random stage generation
-Emphasis on improving skill to progress. Victory should be possible from the very first round if you have the skills for it.
Spelunky would probably be the best template that comes to mind. I've never actually played or seen Rogue
Spelunky allows you to pay for level shortcuts
This strict set of definitions also excludes crypt of the necrodancer, binding of isaad, nuclear throne, and many other games usually thought of as roguelikes
Taking Shortcuts in spelunky means you can't do a hell run. They're just training wheels.
And those qualifiers do not exclude Isaac or Necrodancer. If you're good enough you absolutely can beat those games from thw outset.
you gain permanent progress in both of those games
Neither of them require those things in order to beat the game.
I've played Isaac a bunch, and at this point I could reset my data in Isaac and have a very good chance at beating Mom in one go.
Rogue Legacy pretty much forces you to level up in order to get anywhere. You're not really expected to play it any other way.
Furthermore, 99% of the unlockable items in Isaac only have a chance to show up, and you can easily go a ton of runs without seeing anything good even if you've unlocked everything.
As opposed to your character permanently keeping everything you've unlocked, between runs.
I mean, if that distinction isn't a really big one to you, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, here?
I'm done here
you're going to see more and more games like rogue legacy, and people are going to continue to call them rogue likes, because to a large group of people that has understandable connotations
you can fight against it every time if you would like
for me when someone told me rogue legacy was a rogue like it gave me a set of expectations and it lived up to those mechanics
its a perfectly useful term to describe the game, and people will continue to use it to do so
I only regret I engaged in the conversation
You could have just said "I disagree" and that'd be the end of it.
Instead you make this big dramatic exit over a discussion about video games.
Ain't like anyone forced you to make this personal, dude.
typically when people are told 'no you can't use that word for this, you are wrong', I tend to take it personally
I should try to ignore it in the future
Which is funny because my opening statement wasn't that you cannot call it that, but that I don't call it that.
I even went on, in that statement, to say that most of the games I label as roguelikes aren't technically roguelikes.
So uh, I dunno what to tell you.
I am sorry I snapped at you, I'm gonna drop it now though
I'm currently trying to come up with a unifying system based on categorizing our descriptors as well
So in the style of the previous example I used, the anatomy of Spelunky is:
Graphical: Side Scrolling
Gameplay: Platformer
Progression: Rogue-like
I'm thinking of switching out graphical for something that could also refer to other sensory inputs - music and sound, most notably
Also changing progression to something starting with G, for obvious reasons
The core idea is that every game would have to have at least one of each of those, but could have many, many more
Yeah, graphical doesn't feel right, but I'm struggling to think of what you'd put there. Because there's camera orientation (top-down, sidescrolling, 3D-fixed-perspective, 3D free control) but then sometimes there's a turn-based/real-time distinction. And what would you call Asteroids-like controls where the screen is fixed but you can both move in x and y and pivot?
Aesthetic is my new one, I think
It has the subcategories of art design (8 bit or whatever else), audio design (voiced, sound effects, music, and so on), and camera style (fixed, side scroll, top down, isometric, whatever)
All of those can be split up as well too probably, and of course most games will have all three of those in their aesthetic
The other categories probably split down similarly as well
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
So that Mario level builder game would be then.
No, mario maker is also not randomized on each life
I've never actually locked down the castle in all my time spent with the game
I never used it either, it never made sense to. I'm going to clear every room I can regardless if the world is the same or not, so why waste money on locking it down? It's been a long time since I played but I don't think beating a boss unlocks any abilities or anything so there's no incentive to kill them outside of unlocking the door to the final boss.
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
So that Mario level builder game would be then.
no, thats not random?
I'm assuming there's a random author queue.
On roguelikes though, I'm just frustrated that the term has been so diluted that I can't find the roguelikes that I like, even though they all share the same characteristics.
Namely:
- Turn based or otherwise no execution skill required.
- Procedurely generated [although can you even tell.. and Nethack had Sokoban and quest levels baked in] [no rote learning of solutions]
- Permadeath that eliminates all progess. [No incremental progress]
Only with these three combined do you have a game where learning the systems of the game and using your wits to control them is your only method of progress. And those are games I enjoy.
Rogue Legacy fits none of these, for example. Calling it a roguelike makes finding the above more difficult.
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
So that Mario level builder game would be then.
no, thats not random?
I'm assuming there's a random author queue.
On roguelikes though, I'm just frustrated that the term has been so diluted that I can't find the roguelikes that I like, even though they all share the same characteristics.
Namely:
- Turn based or otherwise no execution skill required.
- Procedurely generated [although can you even tell.. and Nethack had Sokoban and quest levels baked in] [no rote learning of solutions]
- Permadeath that eliminates all progess. [No incremental progress]
Only with these three combined do you have a game where learning the systems of the game and using your wits to control them is your only method of progress. And those are games I enjoy.
Rogue Legacy fits none of these, for example. Calling it a roguelike makes finding the above more difficult.
Even if you're playing 100 Mario Challenge, you still have to clear each level sequentially. The levels are self-contained and remain exactly the same upon death until completion, so there's no random element to it.
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
So that Mario level builder game would be then.
no, thats not random?
I'm assuming there's a random author queue.
On roguelikes though, I'm just frustrated that the term has been so diluted that I can't find the roguelikes that I like, even though they all share the same characteristics.
Namely:
- Turn based or otherwise no execution skill required.
- Procedurely generated [although can you even tell.. and Nethack had Sokoban and quest levels baked in] [no rote learning of solutions]
- Permadeath that eliminates all progess. [No incremental progress]
Only with these three combined do you have a game where learning the systems of the game and using your wits to control them is your only method of progress. And those are games I enjoy.
Rogue Legacy fits none of these, for example. Calling it a roguelike makes finding the above more difficult.
they are roguelike, in that they are similar to rogue
they do not have to be exactly like rogue
then they wouldn't be roguelike
they'd be rogue clones
also the word has been used this way for like 5 years at this point, its origin doesn't really matter any more
Rogue Legacy is nothing like Rogue though.
It is
When you die you must reprogress through areas you have already covered
In addition this is now the generally understood definition of the term, which is how language works
Its generally accepted as the correct descriptor
Saying its not "really" a roguelike helps noone. All it does is gatekeeping for no gain
The same thing happens in Mario.
Is it a Roguelike?
no, mario does not incorporate randomness, it is an authored experience, and learning how to get through a specific area is the key to progressing (like the previous dark souls example) as opposed to the bigger thing in most roguelikes which is knowledge of how elements in the world work and how to tackle them
So that Mario level builder game would be then.
no, thats not random?
I'm assuming there's a random author queue.
On roguelikes though, I'm just frustrated that the term has been so diluted that I can't find the roguelikes that I like, even though they all share the same characteristics.
Namely:
- Turn based or otherwise no execution skill required.
- Procedurely generated [although can you even tell.. and Nethack had Sokoban and quest levels baked in] [no rote learning of solutions]
- Permadeath that eliminates all progess. [No incremental progress]
Only with these three combined do you have a game where learning the systems of the game and using your wits to control them is your only method of progress. And those are games I enjoy.
Rogue Legacy fits none of these, for example. Calling it a roguelike makes finding the above more difficult.
Maybe try Invisible Inc?
Invisible Inc is great. As is FTL. And XCOM.
On the other hand Necrodancer is a great rhythm game, and BoI and Spelunky are great for the execution challenges.
Rogue Legacy easily contains enough of the things that are associated with roguelikes too qualify as one.
The Berlin interpretation of "Roguelike" is kind of bullshit, but it's certainly a list of things that are associated with roguelikes. Let's see if Rogue Legacy contains "enough" of these things.
"High-value factors"
Random environment generation: YES
Permadeath: NO
Turn-based: NO
Grid-based: NO
Non-modal: NO
Complexity: NO
Resource management: NO
Hack'n'slash: YES
Exploration and discovery: NO
"Low-value factors"
Single player character: YES
Monsters are similar to players: NO
Tactical challenge: YES
ASCII display: NO
Dungeons: YES
Numbers: YES
So that's 2 out of 9 "high-value" and 4 out of 6 "low-value" factors. Is that enough? I dunno. Is it EASILY enough? Probably not.
Posts
Glorified way to order a set of Olly Moss prints
Steam
SHABOOM
I've never actually locked down the castle in all my time spent with the game
I don't want to know!
So in the style of the previous example I used, the anatomy of Spelunky is:
I'm thinking of switching out graphical for something that could also refer to other sensory inputs - music and sound, most notably
Also changing progression to something starting with G, for obvious reasons
The core idea is that every game would have to have at least one of each of those, but could have many, many more
Which is funny because my opening statement wasn't that you cannot call it that, but that I don't call it that.
I even went on, in that statement, to say that most of the games I label as roguelikes aren't technically roguelikes.
So uh, I dunno what to tell you.
Yeah, graphical doesn't feel right, but I'm struggling to think of what you'd put there. Because there's camera orientation (top-down, sidescrolling, 3D-fixed-perspective, 3D free control) but then sometimes there's a turn-based/real-time distinction. And what would you call Asteroids-like controls where the screen is fixed but you can both move in x and y and pivot?
I am sorry I snapped at you, I'm gonna drop it now though
agree to disagree.
Aesthetic is my new one, I think
It has the subcategories of art design (8 bit or whatever else), audio design (voiced, sound effects, music, and so on), and camera style (fixed, side scroll, top down, isometric, whatever)
All of those can be split up as well too probably, and of course most games will have all three of those in their aesthetic
The other categories probably split down similarly as well
Shit, yeah, this is it
Wait, dare I? The three elements of presentation are now named Art, Audio, and (camera) Angle
More to come as I delve into my feelings on alliteration being far greater than my feelings on videogames
Probably the most beautiful looking retro game I've played.
I should get back into that and finish it sometime.
polygon.com/2016/2/8/10937554/night-in-the-woods-release-date-window
Steam
Like, I love Tribes and I love Red Orchestra, and they are both multiplayer FPS games but man it would be hard for them to be more different games.
My goal was actually to remove the whole idea of subgenres from the equation
Essentially, by making things holistic enough, what they previously described will no longer be useful
So that Mario level builder game would be then.
I guess those are the only two real choices, double down insanely on specifics ane sub categories (to no end) or go very broad and including.
that mode is actually really fun
I think it's funny that you think any of this particularly matters.
no, thats not random?
I wish it were actually folded into the campaign
"See how long you survive in the campaign with all these new elements to consider" sounds super fun
"Do it in this detached side mode" sounds lame
No, mario maker is also not randomized on each life
I'm assuming there's a random author queue.
On roguelikes though, I'm just frustrated that the term has been so diluted that I can't find the roguelikes that I like, even though they all share the same characteristics.
Namely:
- Turn based or otherwise no execution skill required.
- Procedurely generated [although can you even tell.. and Nethack had Sokoban and quest levels baked in] [no rote learning of solutions]
- Permadeath that eliminates all progess. [No incremental progress]
Only with these three combined do you have a game where learning the systems of the game and using your wits to control them is your only method of progress. And those are games I enjoy.
Rogue Legacy fits none of these, for example. Calling it a roguelike makes finding the above more difficult.
(I just wanted to post this image)
Even if you're playing 100 Mario Challenge, you still have to clear each level sequentially. The levels are self-contained and remain exactly the same upon death until completion, so there's no random element to it.
Just because it excludes some aspects of it that some people enjoy doesn't mean it strays too far from the base genre.
Maybe try Invisible Inc?
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
It was exactly what I thought of when I posted that.
Oh man. I cannot wait for this release.
The demo they put out around a year or so ago was really good.
Invisible Inc is great. As is FTL. And XCOM.
On the other hand Necrodancer is a great rhythm game, and BoI and Spelunky are great for the execution challenges.
I know it doesn't click for some folks but it is possibly the only roguelike I enjoy (and can beat sometimes)
The Berlin interpretation of "Roguelike" is kind of bullshit, but it's certainly a list of things that are associated with roguelikes. Let's see if Rogue Legacy contains "enough" of these things.
"High-value factors"
Random environment generation: YES
Permadeath: NO
Turn-based: NO
Grid-based: NO
Non-modal: NO
Complexity: NO
Resource management: NO
Hack'n'slash: YES
Exploration and discovery: NO
"Low-value factors"
Single player character: YES
Monsters are similar to players: NO
Tactical challenge: YES
ASCII display: NO
Dungeons: YES
Numbers: YES
So that's 2 out of 9 "high-value" and 4 out of 6 "low-value" factors. Is that enough? I dunno. Is it EASILY enough? Probably not.