like, an actual murderer? Flippantly unrestrained in her feeding, unlike Thomas? I mean the White Court straight up kills people.
Lara might be a charming and useful ally from time to time, and they may share some common goals, but it's hard to imagine Harry ever overlooking the whole "eats people" thing.
It’s one thing for Ramirez to outclass Harry in magical skill, if not power.
But MARCONE?? Have some goddamn pride, man.
You’ve got two spirit skulls to tutor you now, one with the knowledge of a Fallen angel. Plus both Listens-to-Wind AND River Shoulders offering to teach you. Even Will and the wolves learned to shape shift to a single animal and they’re not even wizards!
With her Mantle, Molly outclasses him in both power and technical ability.
Are you wizard of Chicago or parkour master of Chicago?!
Catalase on
"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
It’s one thing for Ramirez to outclass Harry in magical skill, if not power.
But MARCONE?? Have some goddamn pride, man.
You’ve got two spirit skulls to tutor you now, one with the knowledge of a Fallen angel. Plus both Listens-to-Wind AND River Shoulders offering to teach you. Even Will and the wolves learned to shape shift to a single animal and they’re not even wizards!
With her Mantle, Molly outclasses him in both power and technical ability.
Are you wizard of Chicago or parkour master of Chicago?!
I think the ending of this book is basically the first time since Changes that Harry will actually have the customary year between books to like... actually do that.
After Changes, he spent the intermission being dead.
After Ghost Story, he spent the intermission recovering from being dead.
After Cold Days, he re-built some gear, but he was stuck on the island the whole time so he could control the headaches. Then Skin Game happens.
I guess he could have done something between Skin Game and Peace Talks, but I feel like that would have mostly been spent making up for lost time with Maggie.
So hopefully we do see some "off-screen" improvement this go around.
Also, my bets are on Ebenezar being right. We feel comfortable with the monsters like Dresden is starting to because we've had his perspective the whole time. Too many unheeded warnings given; Mab or Lara or Odin or someone like that is going to betray him.
Regarding marrying Lara... I think as long as Dresden doesn't sleep with anyone else.. his protection against the White Court should remain even after the events in Battle Grounds. That'll make things... interesting.
I finished it last night (well early this morning). I hit a chapter that was great and “one more chapter”ed my way into finishing it.
This book felt much more complete and a typical Dresden File.
There is a lot to unpack in this. I think my favorite thing was seeing the aftermath unfold in front of us instead of being fed out piecemeal in drips over the next X number of books. The confrontation with Ramirez
when he tells him we can go ask the titan how it went for her to square off against him
was just perfect.
Seeing pieces of Mab’s humanity was a nice touch as well.
The fucking MEN IN BLACK from the Library of Congress. They’re definitely going to show up and cramp things.
As always; the worst part about finishing a trip to the Dresdenverse is the long wait for the next trip. Hopefully it won’t take too long to get back there.
amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Spoilers
I will say for one thing this book was not fanservice. Butcher has been planning and foreshadowing events for years now and several of them came forth here. It's been interesting to see.
I was so goddamn disappointed in Marcone. Also surprised he didn't give a coin to Hendricks as well.
I think they've been trying to set up for a while now that Karen was getting more and more out of her element. I kind of thought this was coming. I think we'll see her again though after the year of mourning.
Seeing the mortality of the Sidhe and their tools versus the titan versus the average people of Chicago was really, really cool. It was a well written and thought out battle. The idea of the banners was a nice touch.
I would have been fine if they'd just ended the black court there and then. Aside from Lara, I'm tired of vampires, they really don't seem to fit into this world like the other races, at least the red and black courts don't/didn't
Harry basically going up to everyone and saying "hey, you know that Titan I defeated and bound, that I still control" when he wants to get his point across, is fucking great. Him basically shutting down Ramirez, and marching into the closed session of the Accords was great, as was his idea to give reparations to the humans.
Marcone might have a coin, but I think he'll be the one to take down Nicodemus for good.
I dunno, there's so much to unpack with this book and the last one when you put them together, and I need to re-read it to see what little bits I've missed.
like, an actual murderer? Flippantly unrestrained in her feeding, unlike Thomas? I mean the White Court straight up kills people.
Lara might be a charming and useful ally from time to time, and they may share some common goals, but it's hard to imagine Harry ever overlooking the whole "eats people" thing.
Yes and no.
First off, obviously she killed someone to become a Whampire. Given that she would have lacked knowledge of what she was, I wouldn’t count that as murder.
IIRC, we've seen Lara kill relatively people, and they’ve been in very specific situations so far as I can recall. Like, feeding seriously injured members of her security staff to her seriously injured sisters. The security staff may or may not have made it with proper medical care. The bodyguards are very well compensated to keep her family alive, and ultimately the difference between the bodyguards taking a bullet directly or getting drained to deal with the bullet that they didn’t take is semantics from Lara’s perspective. Harry would certainly feel otherwise. But I don’t think that that would be the dealbreaker.
The big one for Harry, the most likely dealbreaker, would be what Lara possibly did against the Paranet in White Night, or at least allowed to be done. That didn’t involve eating people, but it led to deaths all the same, even if Lara did eventually swing around to working with the Paranet against the Fomor. The question of course is whether Lara actually set up the plan, or whether she just allowed Harry to think that his hunch was correct. One of the recurring thoughts Harry has is that the predators of the Dresenverse often want to be perceived as tougher and more in control than they actually are - Lara might have shouldered the blame because her predator instincts told her that this made her a more intimidating predator. Or, Harry’s hunch could be completely correct. And in that case, we’d probably need to see some real regret and contrition from Lara.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
I very nearly threw the book across the room when
Murphy
died. Fridging is exhausting, regardless of how much the character is exalted after they're dead. I'm tired of authors deciding that their characters can't have nice relationships (since of course this book also ruined the one between Thomas and Justine). They deserved a chance to be a family together.
I know it's not going to happen, but I'd be happy with the next book being another compilation of short stories. There's a lot I would like to know about the recent/post-BG status quo and the Harry-centric nature of the mainline novels isn't going to give it to me.
I'm not sure I understand Mab's whole warning to Harry about
killing Molly if Mab should fall.
I mean I know that Molly probably isn't ready to be Mab, and might therefore make a terrible Mab, but... if Mab falls and Harry kills Molly then there's no Mab and no winter lady. Then maybe those mantles get hoisted onto a couple of randos somewhere who are even less prepared. How would that be better?
i just wanted to say that this really did feel like it was the second half/two thirds of one book and i'm glad to be done with it.
some thoughts
i didn't like how a lot of things played out but i greatly enjoyed the book.
why only three senior wizards? why not all of them or at least Merlin?
the conflict with ramirez still feels very off to me. 'you don't trust me', 'i can't tell you things' can only be said so many times. my guess is ramirez is black/has become corrupted, especially with that display of power
McCoy is going to have an aneurysm about harry marrying lara. it just doesn't make sense and i'm hoping it's not just for the romance stuff that butcher throws in.
i have mixed feelings about marcone having a coin. it undermines him in a lot of ways to have to rely on a supernatural being for power.
i was really confused about the spear of destiny, was it actually used for anything?
I look forward to castle Dresden and what he does with the place.
the christmas story at the end was fantastic and brought more tears to my eyes.
died. Fridging is exhausting, regardless of how much the character is exalted after they're dead. I'm tired of authors deciding that their characters can't have nice relationships (since of course this book also ruined the one between Thomas and Justine). They deserved a chance to be a family together.
Eh, I don't think this counts as that. (major spoilers)
Fridging is typically when a female character dies to motivate the male character, right? Murphy didn't do that. Dresden was plenty motivated all on his own, it was just a tragic thing that happened.
I was also very upset, but just because it was incredibly sad and shocking.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
Dresden should have fucking shot Rudolph in the goddamn face with the coach gun.
About a half dozen times prior to that point.
I knew Murphy's death would cause Harry to do a thing that would lead to him recognizing the darkness within him and resolving to be a better man, but I was really hoping Butcher would have the balls to make that a "staring down at the blood on his hands" moment. Hell, he could've even done it with magic so the White Council would have a real reason to reinstate the death sentence.
Instead we got that bullshit "he'll face the law" bit with, unless I missed something, no goddamn followup. Fine, Butcher, you're allowed to write a pie-in-the-sky fantasy setting where a cop would see real legal consequences for murdering an armed vigilante in the midst of an apocalypse. But you have to actually write it. I'm not going to have closure until I get confirmation that's what happened to Rudolph.
Dresden should have fucking shot Rudolph in the goddamn face with the coach gun.
About a half dozen times prior to that point.
I knew Murphy's death would cause Harry to do a thing that would lead to him recognizing the darkness within him and resolving to be a better man, but I was really hoping Butcher would have the balls to make that a "staring down at the blood on his hands" moment. Hell, he could've even done it with magic so the White Council would have a real reason to reinstate the death sentence.
Instead we got that bullshit "he'll face the law" bit with, unless I missed something, no goddamn followup. Fine, Butcher, you're allowed to write a pie-in-the-sky fantasy setting where a cop would see real legal consequences for murdering an armed vigilante in the midst of an apocalypse. But you have to actually write it. I'm not going to have closure until I get confirmation that's what happened to Rudolph.
I'm sure we'll see Rudolph again. But it's pretty obvious that nothing's going to happen to him legally. There's no body and Harry was the only witness to the murder.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
Dresden should have fucking shot Rudolph in the goddamn face with the coach gun.
About a half dozen times prior to that point.
I knew Murphy's death would cause Harry to do a thing that would lead to him recognizing the darkness within him and resolving to be a better man, but I was really hoping Butcher would have the balls to make that a "staring down at the blood on his hands" moment. Hell, he could've even done it with magic so the White Council would have a real reason to reinstate the death sentence.
Instead we got that bullshit "he'll face the law" bit with, unless I missed something, no goddamn followup. Fine, Butcher, you're allowed to write a pie-in-the-sky fantasy setting where a cop would see real legal consequences for murdering an armed vigilante in the midst of an apocalypse. But you have to actually write it. I'm not going to have closure until I get confirmation that's what happened to Rudolph.
I'm sure we'll see Rudolph again. But it's pretty obvious that nothing's going to happen to him legally. There's no body and Harry was the only witness to the murder.
That's solid real world logic, but I would have expected some sort of acknowledgment of the uncertainties of the situation if Butcher had that in mind for the future. Dresden and Butters should both be fairly canny to police bullshit at this point. Between that and the unnecessary cruelty (to the readers) of having Murphy's murderer get away with it, I'm leaning the other way. I think Butcher got sloppy and just assumed that his audience would take it as read that justice would be served and it happened offscreen.
died. Fridging is exhausting, regardless of how much the character is exalted after they're dead. I'm tired of authors deciding that their characters can't have nice relationships (since of course this book also ruined the one between Thomas and Justine). They deserved a chance to be a family together.
Eh, I don't think this counts as that. (major spoilers)
Fridging is typically when a female character dies to motivate the male character, right? Murphy didn't do that. Dresden was plenty motivated all on his own, it was just a tragic thing that happened.
I was also very upset, but just because it was incredibly sad and shocking.
In retrospect, we probably should have seen it coming.
Harry didn't mention Murphy at all during the Christmas short story. I can't imagine that the Carpenters wouldn't have welcomed her over for Christmas along with Harry and Maggie barring some kind of unfortunate circumstances.
And from the brief interactions with her family that we've seen, she didn't seem like the kind of person who would be anxious to go home for the holidays. She probably volunteered at work just to get out of dinner. Which is saying something if you'd rather get shot at (or worse, drawn into Dresden's constant shit storm) then endure a family dinner.[/spoilers]
It may be that the justice he faces for his crime is not the American legal system. I imagine there could be something in the Accords about justice for someone who murders a champion under the Banner of the Winter Knight.
That wouldn't likely be the sort of justice that the knights had in mind, and knowing Mab likely wouldn't have been significantly different than what Harry was in the middle of, but it's not certain that it will go unanswered or with a totally fictional penalty from the US justice system.
It's probably more important to Harry's character that he stopped trying to kill him with magic, given the toll it is supposed to bring on a person to do so to a vanilla human.
There was also a possible hint that Rudolf wasn't the only one to blame, given his reaction to the gun going off. Maybe that was just to show it was a negligent discharge, but Butcher is not above having supernatural forces work in subtle ways to fuck with Dresden's life.
On an unrelated note: was that an Acquisitions Incorporated reference I spotted?
It may be that the justice he faces for his crime is not the American legal system. I imagine there could be something in the Accords about justice for someone who murders a champion under the Banner of the Winter Knight.
That wouldn't likely be the sort of justice that the knights had in mind, and knowing Mab likely wouldn't have been significantly different than what Harry was in the middle of, but it's not certain that it will go unanswered or with a totally fictional penalty from the US justice system.
It's probably more important to Harry's character that he stopped trying to kill him with magic, given the toll it is supposed to bring on a person to do so to a vanilla human.
There was also a possible hint that Rudolf wasn't the only one to blame, given his reaction to the gun going off. Maybe that was just to show it was a negligent discharge, but Butcher is not above having supernatural forces work in subtle ways to fuck with Dresden's life.
On an unrelated note: was that an Acquisitions Incorporated reference I spotted?
Green Flame?
I suspect so.
I hope so.
I mean, it seems like kind of an odd thing for a wizard to comment on, given the current circumstances.
Post book thoughts:
So, Harry's got a magical castle now, lots of space to use, and his first apprentice has graduated to full on fairy princess.
Any chance he's looking for a new apprentice? I'm thinking Maggie is a shoe in for Dresden's Magical Academy in a few years, but indications from past books imply that magic ability is not as rare as it seems, judging by how many warlocks the Wardens have put down and the size of the Paranet. Maybe some of these aren't going to be huge talents, but what if Paranetter X just lacked the training to hone their skills and never had stress enough to push their magic powers anywhere beyond occasionally being lucky?
Or Binder or Ascher or Mort or any of the other have-nots of the magical world.
If they had a full on wizard academy to train them on a regular basis instead of just dropping in on occasion when the world was on fire...
Which reminds me. I was really hoping that when Dresden and company walked into the graveyard, they'd find Mortimer there. In my imagination he turns to Dresden shrugs and says "we've got this" and then summons an army of spirits and shades to his aid and sets up another strong point in the cemetery that just grinds Fomor up and spits them out.
Don't get me wrong, Drakul was a neat touch and (I'm willing to bet) he'll be coming back. But to see Lindquist step up to protect his Chicago would have been a great arc resolution for him. From his start as a talk circuit fraud to recovering his abilities as an ectomancer to stepping up as a protector of the people (maybe not the living people, but the dead are people too)...
Maybe it'll be in a short story compilation. I think there's enough characters that Butcher could fill a couple of books with short stories.
see317 on
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
It may be that the justice he faces for his crime is not the American legal system. I imagine there could be something in the Accords about justice for someone who murders a champion under the Banner of the Winter Knight.
That wouldn't likely be the sort of justice that the knights had in mind, and knowing Mab likely wouldn't have been significantly different than what Harry was in the middle of, but it's not certain that it will go unanswered or with a totally fictional penalty from the US justice system.
It's probably more important to Harry's character that he stopped trying to kill him with magic, given the toll it is supposed to bring on a person to do so to a vanilla human.
There was also a possible hint that Rudolf wasn't the only one to blame, given his reaction to the gun going off. Maybe that was just to show it was a negligent discharge, but Butcher is not above having supernatural forces work in subtle ways to fuck with Dresden's life.
On an unrelated note: was that an Acquisitions Incorporated reference I spotted?
Green Flame?
I suspect so.
I hope so.
I mean, it seems like kind of an odd thing for a wizard to comment on, given the current circumstances.
Nah. It was most likely a film reference:
specifically Big Trouble In Little China. The not-Latin Harry used was Eggus Shennus. Egg Shen was the good sorcerer and when talking to the lawyer in the beginning the police reports mention half a city block going up in a burst of green flame. And to prove magic exists to the lawyer Egg makes purple lightning arc between his hands.
BlackDragon480 on
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
It may be that the justice he faces for his crime is not the American legal system. I imagine there could be something in the Accords about justice for someone who murders a champion under the Banner of the Winter Knight.
That wouldn't likely be the sort of justice that the knights had in mind, and knowing Mab likely wouldn't have been significantly different than what Harry was in the middle of, but it's not certain that it will go unanswered or with a totally fictional penalty from the US justice system.
It's probably more important to Harry's character that he stopped trying to kill him with magic, given the toll it is supposed to bring on a person to do so to a vanilla human.
There was also a possible hint that Rudolf wasn't the only one to blame, given his reaction to the gun going off. Maybe that was just to show it was a negligent discharge, but Butcher is not above having supernatural forces work in subtle ways to fuck with Dresden's life.
On an unrelated note: was that an Acquisitions Incorporated reference I spotted?
Green Flame?
I suspect so.
I hope so.
I mean, it seems like kind of an odd thing for a wizard to comment on, given the current circumstances.
Nah. It was most likely a film reference:
specifically Big Trouble In Little China. The not-Latin Harry used was Eggus Shennus. Egg Shen was the good sorcerer and when talking to the lawyer in the beginning the police reports mention half a city block going up in a burst of green flame. And to prove magic exists to the lawyer Egg makes purple lightning arc between his hands.
Yeah, I suppose that makes more sense in the context. Just haven't seen that movie in a long time, but I caught the AcqInc game during PAX online.
Between He Who Walks Beside's statement on what apocalypse is and the fact that the Accords' war council was held in a room carefully lit to avoid the possibility of shadows, methinks Nicodemus and Anduriel haven't been in their own drivers' seats for the entire time we've known them.
TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Sigh.
Book was for the most part awesome.
Then the Murph thing happened.
Then we find out that Marcone somehow has a goddamned Coin.
-Then- Mab pulls what she did at the end of the book. Not gonna lie, the entire White Court has always sort of been one of my least favorite aspects of the Dresdenverse. I'm not looking forward to more Lara. Or more White Court stuff.
In summary, there are no more "normal" badass humans anymore since Murph the Giantslayer is dead and Marcone had an off screen upgrade, and we get to look forward to creepy emotionally abusive rapey vampires taking up a good portion of the next book.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Although
Wizard of Chicago has some interesting implications. I'm somewhat hopeful that being the Wizard of Chicago is going to turn into a full on Mantle for Harry that can potentially supersede the Winter Knight Mantle and get him the fuck out from under Mab's thumb.
I'm looking forward to the next book (while also not looking forward because I can't stand White Court stuff) because basically I want Harry to make everyone go splat against a wall cause he's sick of all the lying and manipulation that everyone, even his erstwhile allies, pull on him. And god forbid if anyone even mentions something that's been kept from him that could have helped save Murphy.
It's time for Harry to become a Power in his own right.
Wizard of Chicago has some interesting implications. I'm somewhat hopeful that being the Wizard of Chicago is going to turn into a full on Mantle for Harry that can potentially supersede the Winter Knight Mantle and get him the fuck out from under Mab's thumb.
I'm looking forward to the next book (while also not looking forward because I can't stand White Court stuff) because basically I want Harry to make everyone go splat against a wall cause he's sick of all the lying and manipulation that everyone, even his erstwhile allies, pull on him. And god forbid if anyone even mentions something that's been kept from him that could have helped save Murphy.
It's time for Harry to become a Power in his own right.
I think there are probably a few books between here and there.
Rebuilding (literally and figuratively)the Brighter Future Society is probably the first step along that path. There's probably gonna be a Professor X moment or two in Harry's future.
Then we find out that Marcone somehow has a goddamned Coin.
-Then- Mab pulls what she did at the end of the book. Not gonna lie, the entire White Court has always sort of been one of my least favorite aspects of the Dresdenverse. I'm not looking forward to more Lara. Or more White Court stuff.
In summary, there are no more "normal" badass humans anymore since Murph the Giantslayer is dead and Marcone had an off screen upgrade, and we get to look forward to creepy emotionally abusive rapey vampires taking up a good portion of the next book.
Namshiel's coin went missing on Marcone's helicopter on the way home from Demonreach at the end of Small Favor. (Where Marcone was being tortured in an attempt to make him accept a coin, as you may remember.) Harry confronts him about it and he claims ignorance. In the story timeline, it was about five and a half years prior to Battle Ground.
Also I increasingly dislike the Winter Knight Mantle as a power-up.
I mean it's not really even much of a power-up. Mab just gave him a shot of super-novacane and sent him on his way. I would've preferred Harry have gotten more skilled or powerful in his defensive/offensive/tactical magics or something, rather than just suddenly being able to take twice as many punches to the face before going down.
The only other boon from the Winter Mantle I've seen aside from "able to injure self more frequently and severely" is "doesn't slip on ice" which is ...nice? I guess? If you happen to be standing someplace icy.
Also I increasingly dislike the Winter Knight Mantle as a power-up.
I mean it's not really even much of a power-up. Mab just gave him a shot of super-novacane and sent him on his way. I would've preferred Harry have gotten more skilled or powerful in his defensive/offensive/tactical magics or something, rather than just suddenly being able to take twice as many punches to the face before going down.
The only other boon from the Winter Mantle I've seen aside from "able to injure self more frequently and severely" is "doesn't slip on ice" which is ...nice? I guess? If you happen to be standing someplace icy.
To be fair, Dresden has spent a considerable amount of time running away from stuff, often times where it's icy or otherwise slick. It's come in handy for him there.
I think you might be selling the Winter Mantle short by quite a bit. Sure, it does the whole "You don't notice pain" thing, but it's also juiced Harry's physical strength and stamina as well as his resistance to cold and ice. That extra stamina seems to translate directly into additional magic before he knocks himself out by over exerting himself.
I'm pretty sure it also considerably upped his ability with ice magic. Prior to that he was all about the fire and force blasts maybe with an occasional wind gust to get his staff. Now he's still using fire and force, but he's also branched out to ice and wind a lot more.
Pretty sure it's also upgraded his eyes to work better in low light. I don't think he's had to pull out his light up amulet trick in a while. And that fight early on in Battle Grounds was a lot more visible than it would have been for a vanilla human.
Most importantly, it put him in Mab's service, true that's a "Good news, bad news" situation, but it does mean that he got to come back from the dead.
I mean, the thing didn't really come with a user's manual, so it's kind of providing new powers as the plot requires, and the biggest plot requirement has been plot forged armor for Harry.
Between He Who Walks Beside's statement on what apocalypse is and the fact that the Accords' war council was held in a room carefully lit to avoid the possibility of shadows, methinks Nicodemus and Anduriel haven't been in their own drivers' seats for the entire time we've known them.
Isn't that fun?
Possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me. I think that keeping Nic out of the meeting was as more likely fear that he'd use the chaos as an opportunity for mischief than fear that they'd been taken by Nemesis.
I might have misread that bit at the end though (it was pretty late, or early for me), but it seemed to me that Nemesis was playing a game of Let's You and Him Fight, pitting Ethniu and the Fomor against the Accorded nations specifically to set things up so that Harry would bring Thomas to his island, forcing him to invite Nem-Justine onto the island allowing her to bypass the wards and Demonreach. Then Nemesis has a massive stockpile of apocalypses on hand. That seems like some 4th or 5th dimensional chess playing on Nem's part, but it seems more likely than infecting an entire accorded nation (or even just their leadership) to start a magical world war.
I think that if the Fomor leadership, let alone the entirety of the Fomor had been taken by Nemesis, it seems like their action would have been much better coordinated.
Of course, the problem with talking about Nemesis is that nobody talks about Nemesis. It's like the first rule of fight club. So, even if they all agreed that Nicodemus was NemNicodemus, nobody is going to come out and say it because anybody that knows enough about Nemesis knows that much, and anybody who doesn't know doesn't need to know and isn't going to be told.
The only other boon from the Winter Mantle I've seen aside from "able to injure self more frequently and severely" is "doesn't slip on ice" which is ...nice? I guess? If you happen to be standing someplace icy.
Well its Chicago
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I'm willing to bet Dresden is making a lot of assumptions about the Mantle. For one thing, he's reluctant to use it and even then tries to force it into being used on his terms. Mab also conceals things by her very nature and intentionally uses threats to expand his capabilities so she's never going to just come out and tell him the extent of the power the Mantle offers.
If he dove into the Mantle whole-hog, he'd be a lot more under Mab's thumb but also empowered a lot more by the Mantle. Except his own skills probably put him in a league or two above the standard Winter Knight, so fully embracing the Mantle would probably weaken him more than it would help him. The big thing for Mab is that it gives her a real powerhouse Knight but she still has leverage on him, while Dresden gets a way to develop beyond his prior limits. I fully expect him to ditch the Mantle at some point, then be surprised when he barely notices the loss.
Between He Who Walks Beside's statement on what apocalypse is and the fact that the Accords' war council was held in a room carefully lit to avoid the possibility of shadows, methinks Nicodemus and Anduriel haven't been in their own drivers' seats for the entire time we've known them.
Isn't that fun?
Possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me. I think that keeping Nic out of the meeting was as more likely fear that he'd use the chaos as an opportunity for mischief than fear that they'd been taken by Nemesis.
I might have misread that bit at the end though (it was pretty late, or early for me), but it seemed to me that Nemesis was playing a game of Let's You and Him Fight, pitting Ethniu and the Fomor against the Accorded nations specifically to set things up so that Harry would bring Thomas to his island, forcing him to invite Nem-Justine onto the island allowing her to bypass the wards and Demonreach. Then Nemesis has a massive stockpile of apocalypses on hand. That seems like some 4th or 5th dimensional chess playing on Nem's part, but it seems more likely than infecting an entire accorded nation (or even just their leadership) to start a magical world war.
When Nicodemus described the apocalypse as a frame of mind rather than an event, he used the exact same words Nemesis!Justine used to describe it to Harry.
The phrasing itself was what struck him in Battle Ground, not just that Justine or Nemesis mentioned one.
Wizard of Chicago has some interesting implications. I'm somewhat hopeful that being the Wizard of Chicago is going to turn into a full on Mantle for Harry that can potentially supersede the Winter Knight Mantle and get him the fuck out from under Mab's thumb.
I'm looking forward to the next book (while also not looking forward because I can't stand White Court stuff) because basically I want Harry to make everyone go splat against a wall cause he's sick of all the lying and manipulation that everyone, even his erstwhile allies, pull on him. And god forbid if anyone even mentions something that's been kept from him that could have helped save Murphy.
It's time for Harry to become a Power in his own right.
So, here's the funny thing about that. Been thinking this during my re-listen.
Winter guards the Outer Gates. They, effectively, safeguard reality. Nemesis is kind of the ultimate Big Bad - or, at least, the Biggest Bad so far - and is an Outsider. So Harry's kind of stuck with Winter until the Nemesis situation is resolved. I realize that doesn't mean he has to be the Winter Knight, but bear with me here.
Like, take a look at Mab's statements in... chapter seven, I think?
"When horrors begin to tear apart the people of this city," Mab said calmly, "when its women and children cry out for help, I should find amusement in seeing you attempt to restrain him."
Mab knew exactly who Harry was when she recruited him to be her Knight. She goes on to explain it in excruciatingly fine detail: "I chose you for times precisely such as these." And that's Mab's long term plan: "...once you understand, we will do great things together."
The previous Winter Knight was a monster to humans. Mab recruited Harry to be a protector of humans. Or, if not precisely because of that... Harry's exerting influence on the Winter Court to make it more of that.
Jumping to the end - Harry convinces Winter to provide aid to everyone in Chicago, and to provide monetary relief to the families of those killed. He convinces the rest of the members of the Accords to go along with it! And - and! - he wins a base of operations for the People of Chicago, effectively usurping the self-proclaimed Baron of Chicago. By providing a sound argument to fallen angels, fae, and vampires - and with the backing of the Winter Court.
Like, long term? I think Winter is the only real "ally" of humans / reality. Mab's trying to marry the White Court to Harry, partly to secure an alliance with Winter but also to secure more allies for Harry.
I agree with you that, eventually, Harry will be out from under Mab's thumb - but it'll be to stand beside her.
I really love books like Battle Ground where you can see all the gears turning and clicking into place.
zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
This book is really intense.
I’m halfway through...and when I’m done I’m going to do both books back to back because I feel like I’ve missed some stuff. Maybe even just do the whole series.
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Lara might be a charming and useful ally from time to time, and they may share some common goals, but it's hard to imagine Harry ever overlooking the whole "eats people" thing.
It’s one thing for Ramirez to outclass Harry in magical skill, if not power.
But MARCONE?? Have some goddamn pride, man.
You’ve got two spirit skulls to tutor you now, one with the knowledge of a Fallen angel. Plus both Listens-to-Wind AND River Shoulders offering to teach you. Even Will and the wolves learned to shape shift to a single animal and they’re not even wizards!
With her Mantle, Molly outclasses him in both power and technical ability.
Are you wizard of Chicago or parkour master of Chicago?!
After Changes, he spent the intermission being dead.
After Ghost Story, he spent the intermission recovering from being dead.
After Cold Days, he re-built some gear, but he was stuck on the island the whole time so he could control the headaches. Then Skin Game happens.
I guess he could have done something between Skin Game and Peace Talks, but I feel like that would have mostly been spent making up for lost time with Maggie.
So hopefully we do see some "off-screen" improvement this go around.
Also, my bets are on Ebenezar being right. We feel comfortable with the monsters like Dresden is starting to because we've had his perspective the whole time. Too many unheeded warnings given; Mab or Lara or Odin or someone like that is going to betray him.
Regarding marrying Lara... I think as long as Dresden doesn't sleep with anyone else.. his protection against the White Court should remain even after the events in Battle Grounds. That'll make things... interesting.
This book felt much more complete and a typical Dresden File.
Seeing pieces of Mab’s humanity was a nice touch as well.
The fucking MEN IN BLACK from the Library of Congress. They’re definitely going to show up and cramp things.
As always; the worst part about finishing a trip to the Dresdenverse is the long wait for the next trip. Hopefully it won’t take too long to get back there.
I was so goddamn disappointed in Marcone. Also surprised he didn't give a coin to Hendricks as well.
I think they've been trying to set up for a while now that Karen was getting more and more out of her element. I kind of thought this was coming. I think we'll see her again though after the year of mourning.
Seeing the mortality of the Sidhe and their tools versus the titan versus the average people of Chicago was really, really cool. It was a well written and thought out battle. The idea of the banners was a nice touch.
I would have been fine if they'd just ended the black court there and then. Aside from Lara, I'm tired of vampires, they really don't seem to fit into this world like the other races, at least the red and black courts don't/didn't
Harry basically going up to everyone and saying "hey, you know that Titan I defeated and bound, that I still control" when he wants to get his point across, is fucking great. Him basically shutting down Ramirez, and marching into the closed session of the Accords was great, as was his idea to give reparations to the humans.
Marcone might have a coin, but I think he'll be the one to take down Nicodemus for good.
I dunno, there's so much to unpack with this book and the last one when you put them together, and I need to re-read it to see what little bits I've missed.
Yes and no.
IIRC, we've seen Lara kill relatively people, and they’ve been in very specific situations so far as I can recall. Like, feeding seriously injured members of her security staff to her seriously injured sisters. The security staff may or may not have made it with proper medical care. The bodyguards are very well compensated to keep her family alive, and ultimately the difference between the bodyguards taking a bullet directly or getting drained to deal with the bullet that they didn’t take is semantics from Lara’s perspective. Harry would certainly feel otherwise. But I don’t think that that would be the dealbreaker.
The big one for Harry, the most likely dealbreaker, would be what Lara possibly did against the Paranet in White Night, or at least allowed to be done. That didn’t involve eating people, but it led to deaths all the same, even if Lara did eventually swing around to working with the Paranet against the Fomor. The question of course is whether Lara actually set up the plan, or whether she just allowed Harry to think that his hunch was correct. One of the recurring thoughts Harry has is that the predators of the Dresenverse often want to be perceived as tougher and more in control than they actually are - Lara might have shouldered the blame because her predator instincts told her that this made her a more intimidating predator. Or, Harry’s hunch could be completely correct. And in that case, we’d probably need to see some real regret and contrition from Lara.
I mean I know that Molly probably isn't ready to be Mab, and might therefore make a terrible Mab, but... if Mab falls and Harry kills Molly then there's no Mab and no winter lady. Then maybe those mantles get hoisted onto a couple of randos somewhere who are even less prepared. How would that be better?
some thoughts
why only three senior wizards? why not all of them or at least Merlin?
the conflict with ramirez still feels very off to me. 'you don't trust me', 'i can't tell you things' can only be said so many times. my guess is ramirez is black/has become corrupted, especially with that display of power
McCoy is going to have an aneurysm about harry marrying lara. it just doesn't make sense and i'm hoping it's not just for the romance stuff that butcher throws in.
i have mixed feelings about marcone having a coin. it undermines him in a lot of ways to have to rely on a supernatural being for power.
i was really confused about the spear of destiny, was it actually used for anything?
I look forward to castle Dresden and what he does with the place.
the christmas story at the end was fantastic and brought more tears to my eyes.
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About a half dozen times prior to that point.
that was incredibly frustrating to me as well
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I mean mostly he's portrayed as a blunt instrument who's go-to weapon is just... fireball.
And as any fantasy RPG will show you, that's like... a tier 1 spell, dude. Needs more variety.
Eh, I don't think this counts as that. (major spoilers)
I was also very upset, but just because it was incredibly sad and shocking.
Instead we got that bullshit "he'll face the law" bit with, unless I missed something, no goddamn followup. Fine, Butcher, you're allowed to write a pie-in-the-sky fantasy setting where a cop would see real legal consequences for murdering an armed vigilante in the midst of an apocalypse. But you have to actually write it. I'm not going to have closure until I get confirmation that's what happened to Rudolph.
In retrospect, we probably should have seen it coming.
And from the brief interactions with her family that we've seen, she didn't seem like the kind of person who would be anxious to go home for the holidays. She probably volunteered at work just to get out of dinner. Which is saying something if you'd rather get shot at (or worse, drawn into Dresden's constant shit storm) then endure a family dinner.[/spoilers]
Really enjoyed it!
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That wouldn't likely be the sort of justice that the knights had in mind, and knowing Mab likely wouldn't have been significantly different than what Harry was in the middle of, but it's not certain that it will go unanswered or with a totally fictional penalty from the US justice system.
It's probably more important to Harry's character that he stopped trying to kill him with magic, given the toll it is supposed to bring on a person to do so to a vanilla human.
There was also a possible hint that Rudolf wasn't the only one to blame, given his reaction to the gun going off. Maybe that was just to show it was a negligent discharge, but Butcher is not above having supernatural forces work in subtle ways to fuck with Dresden's life.
On an unrelated note: was that an Acquisitions Incorporated reference I spotted?
Green Flame?
I hope so.
I mean, it seems like kind of an odd thing for a wizard to comment on, given the current circumstances.
Post book thoughts:
Any chance he's looking for a new apprentice? I'm thinking Maggie is a shoe in for Dresden's Magical Academy in a few years, but indications from past books imply that magic ability is not as rare as it seems, judging by how many warlocks the Wardens have put down and the size of the Paranet. Maybe some of these aren't going to be huge talents, but what if Paranetter X just lacked the training to hone their skills and never had stress enough to push their magic powers anywhere beyond occasionally being lucky?
Or Binder or Ascher or Mort or any of the other have-nots of the magical world.
If they had a full on wizard academy to train them on a regular basis instead of just dropping in on occasion when the world was on fire...
Which reminds me. I was really hoping that when Dresden and company walked into the graveyard, they'd find Mortimer there. In my imagination he turns to Dresden shrugs and says "we've got this" and then summons an army of spirits and shades to his aid and sets up another strong point in the cemetery that just grinds Fomor up and spits them out.
Don't get me wrong, Drakul was a neat touch and (I'm willing to bet) he'll be coming back. But to see Lindquist step up to protect his Chicago would have been a great arc resolution for him. From his start as a talk circuit fraud to recovering his abilities as an ectomancer to stepping up as a protector of the people (maybe not the living people, but the dead are people too)...
Maybe it'll be in a short story compilation. I think there's enough characters that Butcher could fill a couple of books with short stories.
Nah. It was most likely a film reference:
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Yeah, I suppose that makes more sense in the context. Just haven't seen that movie in a long time, but I caught the AcqInc game during PAX online.
Isn't that fun?
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Then the Murph thing happened.
Then we find out that Marcone somehow has a goddamned Coin.
-Then- Mab pulls what she did at the end of the book. Not gonna lie, the entire White Court has always sort of been one of my least favorite aspects of the Dresdenverse. I'm not looking forward to more Lara. Or more White Court stuff.
In summary, there are no more "normal" badass humans anymore since Murph the Giantslayer is dead and Marcone had an off screen upgrade, and we get to look forward to creepy emotionally abusive rapey vampires taking up a good portion of the next book.
I'm looking forward to the next book (while also not looking forward because I can't stand White Court stuff) because basically I want Harry to make everyone go splat against a wall cause he's sick of all the lying and manipulation that everyone, even his erstwhile allies, pull on him. And god forbid if anyone even mentions something that's been kept from him that could have helped save Murphy.
It's time for Harry to become a Power in his own right.
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I mean it's not really even much of a power-up. Mab just gave him a shot of super-novacane and sent him on his way. I would've preferred Harry have gotten more skilled or powerful in his defensive/offensive/tactical magics or something, rather than just suddenly being able to take twice as many punches to the face before going down.
The only other boon from the Winter Mantle I've seen aside from "able to injure self more frequently and severely" is "doesn't slip on ice" which is ...nice? I guess? If you happen to be standing someplace icy.
I think you might be selling the Winter Mantle short by quite a bit. Sure, it does the whole "You don't notice pain" thing, but it's also juiced Harry's physical strength and stamina as well as his resistance to cold and ice. That extra stamina seems to translate directly into additional magic before he knocks himself out by over exerting himself.
I'm pretty sure it also considerably upped his ability with ice magic. Prior to that he was all about the fire and force blasts maybe with an occasional wind gust to get his staff. Now he's still using fire and force, but he's also branched out to ice and wind a lot more.
Pretty sure it's also upgraded his eyes to work better in low light. I don't think he's had to pull out his light up amulet trick in a while. And that fight early on in Battle Grounds was a lot more visible than it would have been for a vanilla human.
Most importantly, it put him in Mab's service, true that's a "Good news, bad news" situation, but it does mean that he got to come back from the dead.
I mean, the thing didn't really come with a user's manual, so it's kind of providing new powers as the plot requires, and the biggest plot requirement has been plot forged armor for Harry.
I might have misread that bit at the end though (it was pretty late, or early for me), but it seemed to me that Nemesis was playing a game of Let's You and Him Fight, pitting Ethniu and the Fomor against the Accorded nations specifically to set things up so that Harry would bring Thomas to his island, forcing him to invite Nem-Justine onto the island allowing her to bypass the wards and Demonreach. Then Nemesis has a massive stockpile of apocalypses on hand. That seems like some 4th or 5th dimensional chess playing on Nem's part, but it seems more likely than infecting an entire accorded nation (or even just their leadership) to start a magical world war.
I think that if the Fomor leadership, let alone the entirety of the Fomor had been taken by Nemesis, it seems like their action would have been much better coordinated.
Of course, the problem with talking about Nemesis is that nobody talks about Nemesis. It's like the first rule of fight club. So, even if they all agreed that Nicodemus was NemNicodemus, nobody is going to come out and say it because anybody that knows enough about Nemesis knows that much, and anybody who doesn't know doesn't need to know and isn't going to be told.
Well its Chicago
If he dove into the Mantle whole-hog, he'd be a lot more under Mab's thumb but also empowered a lot more by the Mantle. Except his own skills probably put him in a league or two above the standard Winter Knight, so fully embracing the Mantle would probably weaken him more than it would help him. The big thing for Mab is that it gives her a real powerhouse Knight but she still has leverage on him, while Dresden gets a way to develop beyond his prior limits. I fully expect him to ditch the Mantle at some point, then be surprised when he barely notices the loss.
The phrasing itself was what struck him in Battle Ground, not just that Justine or Nemesis mentioned one.
Like, take a look at Mab's statements in... chapter seven, I think?
Mab knew exactly who Harry was when she recruited him to be her Knight. She goes on to explain it in excruciatingly fine detail: "I chose you for times precisely such as these." And that's Mab's long term plan: "...once you understand, we will do great things together."
The previous Winter Knight was a monster to humans. Mab recruited Harry to be a protector of humans. Or, if not precisely because of that... Harry's exerting influence on the Winter Court to make it more of that.
Jumping to the end - Harry convinces Winter to provide aid to everyone in Chicago, and to provide monetary relief to the families of those killed. He convinces the rest of the members of the Accords to go along with it! And - and! - he wins a base of operations for the People of Chicago, effectively usurping the self-proclaimed Baron of Chicago. By providing a sound argument to fallen angels, fae, and vampires - and with the backing of the Winter Court.
Like, long term? I think Winter is the only real "ally" of humans / reality. Mab's trying to marry the White Court to Harry, partly to secure an alliance with Winter but also to secure more allies for Harry.
I agree with you that, eventually, Harry will be out from under Mab's thumb - but it'll be to stand beside her.
I really love books like Battle Ground where you can see all the gears turning and clicking into place.
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I’m halfway through...and when I’m done I’m going to do both books back to back because I feel like I’ve missed some stuff. Maybe even just do the whole series.