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Penny Arcade - Comic - Validation Syndrome

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    KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    Zython wrote: »
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

    And why shouldn't fans of that type of game complain about lack of a western release? You're literally attempting to make the same point as that twitter random. What people are actually concerned about is the real possibility that the "eggshell distributors" are creating a hostile environment in which that game cannot exist without accusations of horrible misogyny, against what amounts to something no more vulgar than actual women running around on an actual beach. This weird opposition to sexy virtual women is so horribly inflated by a loud minority. What is the reason for it not being released in North America, the region the previous games actually sold best in, if not because of what they feel are changing social norms? Why shouldn't a fan feel concern for that, or "whine" about it?

    I don't play DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball, but I can sympathize with the people who are dissapointed. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that they might not have easy access to something they like because of people who do not actually criticize art but tear it down and attempt to destroy it because they personally don't like it.

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    WodenbornWodenborn Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    KENNINATOR:
    "I don't play DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball, but I can sympathize with the people who are dissapointed. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that they might not have easy access to something they like because of people who do not actually criticize art but tear it down and attempt to destroy it because they personally don't like it."

    In fairness, the series has been the target of substantive feminist critiques, and you shouldn't tear down those criticisms just because you don't like them.

    However, the idea of gamers jacking off to cartoon women is actually quaint and charming compared to exploitation in the 'adult' film industry. As feminist objective go, banning DOAE isn't even in the most belabored brainstorming sessions.

    Instead, its lack of a localization is based on two things: cowardice and lack of interest. The devs could have defended their right to make fictional sex objects, instead they told everyone they were afraid of SJWs. And even with this being the case, the game still would have been localized if they expected to sell huge, but it has a very niche audience.

    Wodenborn on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    WordLust wrote: »
    So on some level I get this sense that whether or not you are allowed to criticize something versus whether you should stop your complaining and make art instead depends on what mood Jerry is in that day and how much he likes the cut of your jib.

    I think that's kind of what it comes down to. There's this weird "turtles all the way down" game people play about criticizing art, criticizing criticism, criticizing criticism of criticism, and then after that you just go directly to stupidtown. Either its fair to talk about or it isn't. Since we're all on a website devoted to talking about videogames, its pretty clear what side of that particular dilemma we ought to fall on.

    Its a pretty old song and dance, "I don't care what anyone on the internet thinks and here's why someone on the internet IS WRONG!" People who don't care about a topic generally don't get involved in it at all. People who loudly proclaim how much they don't care usually care quite a bit and just don't want to admit it. C'est la vie.

    I don't read too much into the newspost because its awfully vague. The vortex of how popular Penny Arcade is, how much influence it can have (particularly on smaller websites, critics, and games), and how much people try desperately to interpret any single position as a validation of their prior position must make writing a news post dreadfully limiting.

    Comic's pretty great at least. Gabe's expression in panel 3 is wonderful.

    Two goats enter, one car leaves
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    Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User, Moderator mod
    Meh. There are other video games. That's the point of the comic, as well. There are a WHOLE lot of other video games. So one Japanese game doesn't get localized in the West? This isn't some slippery slope that will get all games banned or anything. Games are ubiquitous now. No one is taking your games away. It's an entertainment medium, and it's continuing to grow and change like all other entertainment mediums.

    It's a part of daily life now. Who cares?

    Maybe it will even go the way of Stereoscopes and Pinball! But this won't happen because someone is laying down eggshells or whatever nonsense metaphor... it will be because we'll have something new and better to enjoy, then subsequently complain about on the MindMatrix or whatever it is we will use to communicate.

    Besides, last I checked, Japanese games on PS4/Vita aren't region-locked (and the only region-locked PS3 game that I know of is Persona 4: Arena, for no reason). No one is stopping anyone from buying and playing it. Not to mention that it can take YEARS to localize a Japanese game anyway (Trails in the Sky, I'm looking at YOU).

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
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    KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    Wodenborn wrote: »
    In fairness, the series has been the target of substantive feminist critiques, and you shouldn't tear down those criticisms just because you don't like them.

    For real, please don't start this logic loop. Can I say that I wish not to tear down another person's opinion, only that by toning down their hate just a little bit it may allow more games to exist in more places, even ones they may dislike, and also have absolutely zero effect on their lives while simultaneously making other people happy? And I also wish certain game companies could stand up in the face of twitter and blog hate, but obviously that can't be the absolute only thing effecting their decisions, because that would be stupid.

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    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Games are art. Unless it's Pewdepie's game.

    Or Superman 64.

    But that's just another subjective opinion.

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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    The proxy war over a volleyball game nobody cares about is kind of adorable. So many people concerned about whether the game can be released or not, so few people actually buying it.

    Two goats enter, one car leaves
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Games are art. Unless it's Pewdepie's game.

    Or Superman 64.

    But that's just another subjective opinion.

    No I think Superman 64 is a pretty good argument against games as art

    maybe a good argument against art existing in general

    Two goats enter, one car leaves
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    KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    The proxy war over a volleyball game nobody cares about is kind of adorable. So many people concerned about whether the game can be released or not, so few people actually buying it.

    I suspect you do not actually think it is adorable, and are instead using what is typically a complement as an insult in order to be condescending.

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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

    And why shouldn't fans of that type of game complain about lack of a western release? You're literally attempting to make the same point as that twitter random. What people are actually concerned about is the real possibility that the "eggshell distributors" are creating a hostile environment in which that game cannot exist without accusations of horrible misogyny, against what amounts to something no more vulgar than actual women running around on an actual beach. This weird opposition to sexy virtual women is so horribly inflated by a loud minority. What is the reason for it not being released in North America, the region the previous games actually sold best in, if not because of what they feel are changing social norms? Why shouldn't a fan feel concern for that, or "whine" about it?

    I don't play DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball, but I can sympathize with the people who are dissapointed. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that they might not have easy access to something they like because of people who do not actually criticize art but tear it down and attempt to destroy it because they personally don't like it.

    There's nothing wrong with complaining about a lack of western or wishing one to occur. Hell, my favorite action RPG of all time never got a western release (Seiken Densetsu 3, if you cared). The issue is that they're blaming their political enemies for the lack of localization, in spite of what the facts say, and they are claiming that this is a major focal point of free speech and civil rights. It's not an expression of disappointment, it's and expression of entitled naval-gazing (though I suppose they would be naval-gazing if they had the game...).

    You ask why they aren't localizing it in the west, despite it selling better? You realize how BIG the west is, compared to Japan? You realize how many more people live in North America compared to Japan?

    You want to know the truth. The horrendous, fear-inducing truth? No one cared about this game before they could use it as a political cudgel. Not even you.
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Wodenborn wrote: »
    In fairness, the series has been the target of substantive feminist critiques, and you shouldn't tear down those criticisms just because you don't like them.

    For real, please don't start this logic loop. Can I say that I wish not to tear down another person's opinion, only that by toning down their hate just a little bit it may allow more games to exist in more places, even ones they may dislike, and also have absolutely zero effect on their lives while simultaneously making other people happy? And I also wish certain game companies could stand up in the face of twitter and blog hate, but obviously that can't be the absolute only thing effecting their decisions, because that would be stupid.

    Ok. I want to run a thought experiment. How many products have you bought solely because they were deemed "controversial" (usually by the people making the product)? What was the general quality for those products? Now, ask yourself, "Am I being taken for a ride?".
    Wodenborn wrote: »

    In fairness, the series has been the target of substantive feminist critiques, and you shouldn't tear down those criticisms just because you don't like them.

    No it hasn't. At worst, people made fun of it for being wank-pandering. At best, people didn't care.
    However, the idea of gamers jacking off to cartoon women is actually quaint and charming compared to exploitation in the 'adult' film industry. As feminist objective go, banning DOAE isn't even in the most belabored brainstorming sessions.

    On the contrary, most feminists I know are pro-sex work.
    Instead, its lack of a localization is based on two things: cowardice and lack of interest. The devs could have defended their right to make fictional sex objects, instead they told everyone they were afraid of SJWs. And even with this being the case, the game still would have been localized if they expected to sell huge, but it has a very niche audience.

    They weren't "afraid" of anyone.

    Zython on
    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Zython wrote: »
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

    And why shouldn't fans of that type of game complain about lack of a western release? You're literally attempting to make the same point as that twitter random. What people are actually concerned about is the real possibility that the "eggshell distributors" are creating a hostile environment in which that game cannot exist without accusations of horrible misogyny, against what amounts to something no more vulgar than actual women running around on an actual beach. This weird opposition to sexy virtual women is so horribly inflated by a loud minority. What is the reason for it not being released in North America, the region the previous games actually sold best in, if not because of what they feel are changing social norms? Why shouldn't a fan feel concern for that, or "whine" about it?

    I don't play DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball, but I can sympathize with the people who are dissapointed. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that they might not have easy access to something they like because of people who do not actually criticize art but tear it down and attempt to destroy it because they personally don't like it.

    There's nothing wrong with complaining about a lack of western or wishing one to occur. Hell, my favorite action RPG of all time never got a western release (Seiken Densetsu 3, if you cared). The issue is that they're blaming their political enemies for the lack of localization, in spite of what the facts say, and they are claiming that this is a major focal point of free speech and civil rights. It's not an expression of disappointment, it's and expression of entitled naval-gazing (though I suppose they would be naval-gazing if they had the game...).

    You ask why they aren't localizing it in the west, despite it selling better? You realize how BIG the west is, compared to Japan? You realize how many more people live in North America compared to Japan?

    You want to know the truth. The horrendous, fear-inducing truth? No one cared about this game before they could use it as a political cudgel. Not even you.
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Wodenborn wrote: »
    In fairness, the series has been the target of substantive feminist critiques, and you shouldn't tear down those criticisms just because you don't like them.

    For real, please don't start this logic loop. Can I say that I wish not to tear down another person's opinion, only that by toning down their hate just a little bit it may allow more games to exist in more places, even ones they may dislike, and also have absolutely zero effect on their lives while simultaneously making other people happy? And I also wish certain game companies could stand up in the face of twitter and blog hate, but obviously that can't be the absolute only thing effecting their decisions, because that would be stupid.

    Ok. I want to run a thought experiment. How many products have you bought solely because they were deemed "controversial" (usually by the people making the product)? What was the general quality for those products? Now, ask yourself, "Am I being taken for a ride?".

    So it sold more in North America, thereby making more money, and also nobody cared in spite of this fact, so that's why they aren't localizing it? I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, you've genuinely confused me. And I've cared about as much as what a cute video game girl in a screenshot every now and then is worth, I do enjoy cheesecake every now and then, but I can accept that there are people who exist who are really into this series, an amount bigger than 0, which is not nobody.

    No I've not ever purchased a product only because it was controversial or the person selling it to me told me it was controversial. I may have purchased controversial products in the past, but I don't really want to take stock of everything I own that may be controversial and I don't think you actually expect me to.

    Kenninator on
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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

    And why shouldn't fans of that type of game complain about lack of a western release? You're literally attempting to make the same point as that twitter random. What people are actually concerned about is the real possibility that the "eggshell distributors" are creating a hostile environment in which that game cannot exist without accusations of horrible misogyny, against what amounts to something no more vulgar than actual women running around on an actual beach. This weird opposition to sexy virtual women is so horribly inflated by a loud minority. What is the reason for it not being released in North America, the region the previous games actually sold best in, if not because of what they feel are changing social norms? Why shouldn't a fan feel concern for that, or "whine" about it?

    I don't play DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball, but I can sympathize with the people who are dissapointed. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that they might not have easy access to something they like because of people who do not actually criticize art but tear it down and attempt to destroy it because they personally don't like it.

    There's nothing wrong with complaining about a lack of western or wishing one to occur. Hell, my favorite action RPG of all time never got a western release (Seiken Densetsu 3, if you cared). The issue is that they're blaming their political enemies for the lack of localization, in spite of what the facts say, and they are claiming that this is a major focal point of free speech and civil rights. It's not an expression of disappointment, it's and expression of entitled naval-gazing (though I suppose they would be naval-gazing if they had the game...).

    You ask why they aren't localizing it in the west, despite it selling better? You realize how BIG the west is, compared to Japan? You realize how many more people live in North America compared to Japan?

    You want to know the truth. The horrendous, fear-inducing truth? No one cared about this game before they could use it as a political cudgel. Not even you.
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Wodenborn wrote: »
    In fairness, the series has been the target of substantive feminist critiques, and you shouldn't tear down those criticisms just because you don't like them.

    For real, please don't start this logic loop. Can I say that I wish not to tear down another person's opinion, only that by toning down their hate just a little bit it may allow more games to exist in more places, even ones they may dislike, and also have absolutely zero effect on their lives while simultaneously making other people happy? And I also wish certain game companies could stand up in the face of twitter and blog hate, but obviously that can't be the absolute only thing effecting their decisions, because that would be stupid.

    Ok. I want to run a thought experiment. How many products have you bought solely because they were deemed "controversial" (usually by the people making the product)? What was the general quality for those products? Now, ask yourself, "Am I being taken for a ride?".

    So it sold more in North America, thereby making more money, and also nobody cared in spite of this fact, so that's why they aren't localizing it? I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, you've genuinely confused me. And I've cared about as much as every now and then I can see a cute video game girl in a screenshot, I do enjoy cheesecake every now and then, but I can accept that there are people who exist who are really into this series, an amount bigger than 0, which is not nobody.

    Localization also includes marketing and distribution costs, which are more expensive in the west due to geographic size. 100k units is not a lot of revenue in this day and age, and even if they did make a net profit, you would have to also factor in opportunity cost. Would that money have been better spent on a more profitable project? Business is REALLy complicated. The goal isn't to make money, it's to make the most amount of money possible with what you have.
    No I've not ever purchased a product only because it was controversial or the person selling it to me told me it was controversial. I may have purchased controversial products in the past, but I don't really want to take stock of everything I own that may be controversial and I don't think you actually expect me to.

    I was hoping a few examples would stick out in your mind, but if you don't have any examples, that's fine. My point was mainly that products that bill themselves on manufactured outrage do so because they can't bill themselves on quality.

    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    Zython wrote: »

    I'm not of the opinion that that post by Koei Tecmo Europe actually invalidates the original post made by the mentioned employee. I'm not even saying this is bullshit PR, it doesn't actually matter, the original Facebook post by that employee serves as alarm enough for fans of the game. It was enough to get people riled up about something they enjoy.

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    KenninatorKenninator Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Zython wrote: »
    Localization also includes marketing and distribution costs, which are more expensive in the west due to geographic size. 100k units is not a lot of revenue in this day and age, and even if they did make a net profit, you would have to also factor in opportunity cost. Would that money have been better spent on a more profitable project? Business is REALLy complicated. The goal isn't to make money, it's to make the most amount of money possible with what you have.

    Hey, fair enough. I can accept that as a potential, if not primary, reason for the lack of localization.

    Kenninator on
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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »

    I'm not of the opinion that that post by Koei Tecmo Europe actually invalidates the original post made by the mentioned employee. I'm not even saying this is bullshit PR, it doesn't actually matter, the original Facebook post by that employee serves as alarm enough for fans of the game. It was enough to get people riled up about something they enjoy.

    I know it doesn't matter to those that have made up their mind. Emotional investment isn't something that can be dissuaded with contradictory evidence. Just pointing out that the facts don't align with the narrative to those who will listen.

    Edit: For clarification, I'm not referring to anyone here when I talk about "emotional investment", talking about the people most heavily up in arms over the issue.

    Zython on
    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    MacMcCrackMacMcCrack Duchess of Manboob Wherever mediocrity is celebratedRegistered User regular
    i love it when he goes off like this. These are my favorite comics.

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Kenninator wrote: »
    The proxy war over a volleyball game nobody cares about is kind of adorable. So many people concerned about whether the game can be released or not, so few people actually buying it.

    I suspect you do not actually think it is adorable, and are instead using what is typically a complement as an insult in order to be condescending.

    Honestly it is pretty adorable. Who in the world could possibly care one way or another about that game? Even fans of DoA beach volleyball admit that only the first one was any good. "The feminists won't let us!" is a handy excuse for them not to release it, when the real answer is probably "no one actually cares except a few hardcore fans, and that doesn't bring in the moola", but there's no way Koei Tecmo Games are going to say that publically.

    Cambiata on
    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    VirtuavereVirtuavere Registered User regular
    I usually love Tycho's news posts, but his recent railing at games journalists is beginning to have the concerning timbre of an old man yelling at the wind.

    There's an implicit irony in castigating a hypothetical person for being insecure, then spending a significant amount of time explaining why this hypothetical person is wrong and bad and is strangling creativity (literally referring to such a person as a "negative space around creativity"). You can't have it both ways, dude. Either they're not somebody whose opinions you care about (in which case, there's no point in responding in the first place), or you should actually engage with those opinions, rather than dismissing them.

    I don't think every single game needs to be "serious," but I absolutely want games to try harder and do better, not because I think games need to be validated, but BECAUSE I WANT TO PLAY BETTER GAMES. Tycho seems to think games journalists who criticize games hate games, which is utterly bizarre to me. You may disagree with them, but I think what people are doing when they're criticizing games is trying to get games to evolve. Creators are not under any geas to bend to this, so why is this desire an unhealthy one? Why is it anathema to want better games? Even if you disagree with a critic, why is it somehow not valid to have a critical opinion? The insecurity feels like it's entirely misplaced in the other direction. The tone of Tycho's posts, especially here in talking about "literally distributing eggshells for other people to walk on," is that of someone who fears criticism, sees it as something destructive and limiting. I don't see that as the case. There is a completely valid space for criticism to exist, and I think any medium is stronger for it.

    I just do not understand this standpoint that loving games is about not acknowledging their flaws or not caring about where they fit into our cultural landscape. You can still love games while wanting them to "grow up." And they HAVE grown up! I mean, the games many of us love now are so much richer, deeper, more fulfilling experiences than the shooter cabinets of yore. There will ALWAYS be a place for those classic games; no one is taking those away, but "growing up" is not a bad thing! Imagine a world without Bioware or Bethesda or any of the indie developers that have come out from left field to surprise us with new and bold visions. That's where gaming is headed, and I think that's a beautiful thing.

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    Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    Kenninator wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Localization also includes marketing and distribution costs, which are more expensive in the west due to geographic size. 100k units is not a lot of revenue in this day and age, and even if they did make a net profit, you would have to also factor in opportunity cost. Would that money have been better spent on a more profitable project? Business is REALLy complicated. The goal isn't to make money, it's to make the most amount of money possible with what you have.

    Hey, fair enough. I can accept that as a potential, if not primary, reason for the lack of localization.

    Really, when we are talking about a Western localization, we are talking about a North American one. Nobody is actually expecting them to make French, German and Spanish translations for a European release, but "Western" sounds better because it suggests more people being deprived of the game's sweet, sweet inverse-nippomatics. Now, the game already has an English translation (or at least, English menus and subtitles), and it is not region locked. Anyone who really wants to buy the game already can, and more importantly, any sales of a NA localization are going to start with the people who would have imported it otherwise. So, we have A) the expected sales of the NA localization and B) the expected costs of said localization. But we also have C) the expected imports without the NA localization. The net gain from localization is not A-B; it is closer to (A-C)-B. Everyone going on about how they plan on buying the game through PlayAsia because (reasons) is actually making a North American localization of the game less likely.

    This isn't the first time Koei has declined to localize a game. Notably, there is an entire series of Nobunaga's Ambition style games set in the Gundam universe. There was also Warriors Orochi Z, which did not get localized, despite the success of the earlier games.

    Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.

    - John Stuart Mill
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    DissentDissent Mr. Fancy Pants Flavour CountryRegistered User regular
    How are you people finding the time to mull this stuff over when Fallout 4 and R6 are out? Wait, how do I have the time to be posting this? What is the meaning of meaning!?!? Oh god, the darkness...it is coming for me...

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Dissent wrote: »
    How are you people finding the time to mull this stuff over when Fallout 4 and R6 are out? Wait, how do I have the time to be posting this? What is the meaning of meaning!?!? Oh god, the darkness...it is coming for me...

    I'm at work trying not to fall asleep. Believe me, if they still let us have our own laptops here, I'd be playing a game. (though not those specific ones)

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    T

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    hightechartisthightechartist Registered User regular
    I find this comic offensive as it implies that the Amish are an imaginary third party. Shame on you guys.

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    DissentDissent Mr. Fancy Pants Flavour CountryRegistered User regular
    I find this comic offensive as it implies that the Amish are an imaginary third party. Shame on you guys.

    The Amish used to sell me reality-altering green stuffs at a reasonable price. Fake story.

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    mare_imbriummare_imbrium Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    To be getting back to the comic itself, I like it. For people my age (and I am about G&T's age tho I think they might be a couple of years older), especially as a woman, it's still really out there, that there are people out there who wrinkle their nose at you "oh, you still play games?" I know a lot of women my age and slightly older for whom video games are currently for them just a mildly "silly" thing they indulge their husbands in - as in not protesting that they do it. Many women in their mid-thirties and forties played video games when they were kids, and may remember it fondly, but it's something I think a lot of them left behind in childhood. And it's really interesting, as Gabe talks about the ubiquity of games, and talks about Candy Crush in particular, and we've seen a lot of people saying "well those people aren't real gamers, that's not a real game" but interestingly, women I'm talking about above? Probably do play games like candy crush and would probably absolutely agree with the Candy Crush naysayers that they are not "gamers" and playing games like that is not "gaming." Gamers who gatekeep like that want to keep gaming "exclusive" I guess, but women who would say that playing phone games doesn't make them gamers do it because they still have a negative connotation of being a "gamer" that comes from back in the mists of time in the last century.

    Yesterday I was talking to someone about exercising, and she said something about "kicking the workout's ass" and it made me start thinking about how I would put exercising in terms of fighting and my mind almost immediately went to fighting Dark Link in LoZ. I decided this was funny and so I did make a post about it but I felt like I had to qualify it with "okay I'm a super geek, but..." and she responded that she loved Legend of Zelda "growing up" and also thought my analogy was good. So, acceptance, but..hedging.

    The comic to me spoke to me as someone who straddles two worlds - video games being a niche or "for kids" and video games becoming universal (I read an article once about those of us that grew up while technology was blowing up that called us the "Oregon Trail Generation" and I think it was well stated, and there's another good piece I read somewhere about being a part of the last generation that used landline phones and snail mail and typewriters raising the first generation who is growing up completely digital), and Gabe represents people who are still sensitive about it and Tycho represents people who just don't care about what other people think about what they do. And they're making fun of the old attitude and telling people it's time to move on, because here, look, gaming is now as natural as breathing, and the younger you get the more it's just the cultural soup we ALL swim in. At least that's how I took it. And honestly it's a good lesson for BOTH sides of the coin for people my age - that people my age who play facebook/phone games and still turn their nose down at "gaming" should just quit it and acknowledge that everybody is a gamer now.

    mare_imbrium on
    v2zAToe.jpg
    Wii: 4521 1146 5179 1333 Pearl: 3394 4642 8367 HG: 1849 3913 3132
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    NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    Virtuavere wrote: »
    I usually love Tycho's news posts, but his recent railing at games journalists is beginning to have the concerning timbre of an old man yelling at the wind.

    There's an implicit irony in castigating a hypothetical person for being insecure, then spending a significant amount of time explaining why this hypothetical person is wrong and bad and is strangling creativity (literally referring to such a person as a "negative space around creativity"). You can't have it both ways, dude. Either they're not somebody whose opinions you care about (in which case, there's no point in responding in the first place), or you should actually engage with those opinions, rather than dismissing them.

    I don't think every single game needs to be "serious," but I absolutely want games to try harder and do better, not because I think games need to be validated, but BECAUSE I WANT TO PLAY BETTER GAMES. Tycho seems to think games journalists who criticize games hate games, which is utterly bizarre to me. You may disagree with them, but I think what people are doing when they're criticizing games is trying to get games to evolve. Creators are not under any geas to bend to this, so why is this desire an unhealthy one? Why is it anathema to want better games? Even if you disagree with a critic, why is it somehow not valid to have a critical opinion? The insecurity feels like it's entirely misplaced in the other direction. The tone of Tycho's posts, especially here in talking about "literally distributing eggshells for other people to walk on," is that of someone who fears criticism, sees it as something destructive and limiting. I don't see that as the case. There is a completely valid space for criticism to exist, and I think any medium is stronger for it.

    I just do not understand this standpoint that loving games is about not acknowledging their flaws or not caring about where they fit into our cultural landscape. You can still love games while wanting them to "grow up." And they HAVE grown up! I mean, the games many of us love now are so much richer, deeper, more fulfilling experiences than the shooter cabinets of yore. There will ALWAYS be a place for those classic games; no one is taking those away, but "growing up" is not a bad thing! Imagine a world without Bioware or Bethesda or any of the indie developers that have come out from left field to surprise us with new and bold visions. That's where gaming is headed, and I think that's a beautiful thing.

    I don't think he's attacking critics at all. These people who throw around egg shells are not critics. They use the appearance of criticism to attack things they do not like or do not understand.

    I'm not sure I'm conveying my thoughts effectively here, I'm at work and I want to get this down quickly.

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    VirtuavereVirtuavere Registered User regular
    The comic to me spoke to me as someone who straddles two worlds - video games being a niche or "for kids" and video games becoming universal (I read an article once about those of us that grew up while technology was blowing up that called us the "Oregon Trail Generation" and I think it was well stated, and there's another good piece I read somewhere about being a part of the last generation that used landline phones and snail mail and typewriters raising the first generation who is growing up completely digital), and Gabe represents people who are still sensitive about it and Tycho represents people who just don't care about what other people think about what they do. And they're making fun of the old attitude and telling people it's time to move on, because here, look, gaming is now as natural as breathing, and the younger you get the more it's just the cultural soup we ALL swim in. At least that's how I took it. And honestly it's a good lesson for BOTH sides of the coin for people my age - that people my age who play facebook/phone games and still turn their nose down at "gaming" should just quit it and acknowledge that everybody is a gamer now.

    I think everything you said is exactly why I don't like this comic (a rare occasion). Gabe doesn't seem to me to be representing a legitimate voice here as you describe; he's a strawman, giving Tycho a chance to expound on why people who have something to prove regarding games are irrational and insecure. As I mentioned above, I take issue with Tycho's reasoning that critiquing games is somehow destructive (everything in his post seems to indicate that the target in question are journalists who critique games), but I also agree entirely with your experience, which mirrors mine: games may be ubiquitous, but their acceptance simply is not. In the communities I live and work in, the number of people who self-identify as "gamers" is very small. Some would say this represents the irrelevance of "gamer" as an identity, but I don't agree; I think there is still a cultural stigma attached to gaming for both valid and invalid reasons. There are some who still, even today, don't realize how much gaming has evolved as both a medium and an art form. And there are others who justifiably take issue with some of the less admirable aspects of gaming, the things we're frequently embarrassed to admit to non-gamers.

    I sometimes think Tycho and Gabe have grown disconnected from what it's like in actual meatspace for most people. I mean, how could they not? The live, eat, drink, and breathe video games. Their work is video games. Their office is video games. Even their charity work is video games. Of course it's accepted by nearly everyone they run into. It's easy to look at two construction workers playing Candy Crush and think, "Yup, we've made it. Games are everywhere now." But that is not my experience. Nor is it the experience of people I know who work in science labs or other professional and academic institutions, who literally hide the fact that they are gamers. And I mean, for YEARS. That's a real thing that still happens, even today.

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    rhylithrhylith Death Rabbits HoustonRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Virtuavere wrote: »
    I usually love Tycho's news posts, but his recent railing at games journalists is beginning to have the concerning timbre of an old man yelling at the wind.

    There's an implicit irony in castigating a hypothetical person for being insecure, then spending a significant amount of time explaining why this hypothetical person is wrong and bad and is strangling creativity (literally referring to such a person as a "negative space around creativity"). You can't have it both ways, dude. Either they're not somebody whose opinions you care about (in which case, there's no point in responding in the first place), or you should actually engage with those opinions, rather than dismissing them.

    I don't think every single game needs to be "serious," but I absolutely want games to try harder and do better, not because I think games need to be validated, but BECAUSE I WANT TO PLAY BETTER GAMES. Tycho seems to think games journalists who criticize games hate games, which is utterly bizarre to me. You may disagree with them, but I think what people are doing when they're criticizing games is trying to get games to evolve. Creators are not under any geas to bend to this, so why is this desire an unhealthy one? Why is it anathema to want better games? Even if you disagree with a critic, why is it somehow not valid to have a critical opinion? The insecurity feels like it's entirely misplaced in the other direction. The tone of Tycho's posts, especially here in talking about "literally distributing eggshells for other people to walk on," is that of someone who fears criticism, sees it as something destructive and limiting. I don't see that as the case. There is a completely valid space for criticism to exist, and I think any medium is stronger for it.

    I just do not understand this standpoint that loving games is about not acknowledging their flaws or not caring about where they fit into our cultural landscape. You can still love games while wanting them to "grow up." And they HAVE grown up! I mean, the games many of us love now are so much richer, deeper, more fulfilling experiences than the shooter cabinets of yore. There will ALWAYS be a place for those classic games; no one is taking those away, but "growing up" is not a bad thing! Imagine a world without Bioware or Bethesda or any of the indie developers that have come out from left field to surprise us with new and bold visions. That's where gaming is headed, and I think that's a beautiful thing.

    I don't think he's attacking critics at all. These people who throw around egg shells are not critics. They use the appearance of criticism to attack things they do not like or do not understand.

    I'm not sure I'm conveying my thoughts effectively here, I'm at work and I want to get this down quickly.

    If it's actually in the context of a film critic wading into video games like "heh, those gamers can never be taken seriously as long as they support games like DOA" then sure, I can see that argument. Personal opinions on the game itself aside that's the same kind of outsider mocking gamers mentality that they've always resisted.

    But it's more about the pattern in Tycho's newsposts. This is the third time in a very short span that he's been incredibly vocal against people who are critical of legitimate problems in the industry: the difficulties of managing a virulent community with the Motherboard strip, media blacklisting and control of messaging/the expectation of media to be a mouthpiece with the scorpion one, and now this, which given the context in the news post and this thread takes on an entirely different meaning as we have no idea specifically who he's referring to.

    I dunno, maybe it's showing that after over a decade the PA the comic just isn't for me anymore. I wish we'd get more side stories, more strips about family, and most notably more silly comics about games. Dipping their toes into what's basically the equivalent of gaming politics just ain't workin for me.

    rhylith on
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    FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    I get the news post. IMO the death of good art is too much second guessing. The moment you become more concerned about your critics than you are about your own vision you're screwed. These days the social pressure on media, art and especially games is so strong and very, very public, and you certainly feel that breath on your neck. Eggshells indeed.

    People can go on all they want about needing criticism and how it is right and essential... but id put forward that the amount of pressure and the number of "critics" are at an all time high. We've never had so many people putting so much pressure onto content makers in so public a way. It's worth thinking about the sheer number of "eggshells" being tossed out there

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    Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    I get the news post. IMO the death of good art is too much second guessing. The moment you become more concerned about your critics than you are about your own vision you're screwed. These days the social pressure on media, art and especially games is so strong and very, very public, and you certainly feel that breath on your neck. Eggshells indeed.

    People can go on all they want about needing criticism and how it is right and essential... but id put forward that the amount of pressure and the number of "critics" are at an all time high. We've never had so many people putting so much pressure onto content makers in so public a way. It's worth thinking about the sheer number of "eggshells" being tossed out there

    The thing is, video games aren't just art. They are also (and often primarily) a mass-produced, mass-marketed commercial product. The whole eggshells argument is just a way of asserting ownership over a hobby and demanding it cater to your desires, regardless of what the anyone else might want. It's just bitching about how others dislike something you like, because if enough people dislike something, that might make the content creators drop it in order to appeal to a wider audience.

    Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.

    - John Stuart Mill
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    FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    I get the news post. IMO the death of good art is too much second guessing. The moment you become more concerned about your critics than you are about your own vision you're screwed. These days the social pressure on media, art and especially games is so strong and very, very public, and you certainly feel that breath on your neck. Eggshells indeed.

    People can go on all they want about needing criticism and how it is right and essential... but id put forward that the amount of pressure and the number of "critics" are at an all time high. We've never had so many people putting so much pressure onto content makers in so public a way. It's worth thinking about the sheer number of "eggshells" being tossed out there

    The thing is, video games aren't just art. They are also (and often primarily) a mass-produced, mass-marketed commercial product. The whole eggshells argument is just a way of asserting ownership over a hobby and demanding it cater to your desires, regardless of what the anyone else might want. It's just bitching about how others dislike something you like, because if enough people dislike something, that might make the content creators drop it in order to appeal to a wider audience.

    Id hesitate to call my post "asserting ownership" over anything. To the contrary, I'd say the eggshell argument is specifically about NOT putting undo pressure on developers / content creators to cater to a certain subset of preferences. Does nothing of my post ring true regarding sheer volume of pressure that can be put on developers and creators? A critic is now anyone on sociak media, it can be less a "bad review" and more the fear that someone is going to start a campaign to boycott or disparage you.

    Which of course they have the right to do, it's simply a rather new trend if only I terms of scale and how public it is, and I fully sympathize with arguments that perhaps we should not encourage it.

    As to the rest, Not all games are art but that does not mean art excludes games. For example, the Witcher series is a deeper, more fascinating story and world than almost any movie or book I've read in the past several years. It also received a lot of pushback for raunchy content, lack of racial diversity, having a sole male lead, etc. I think it's a fantastic example of holding fairly true to artistic vision in spite of pressure and producing something magnificent. The compromises they made to appease certain demographics were small, and though I wish they hadn't I suppose I understand it. Long story short of all that is I place heavy value on people capable of creating something like that, and am wary of people who cannot, will not, but are more than content to throw mud. I can do with more of the former in my life, less of the latter.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Compare and contrast, from January 2006 - roughly ten years ago.

    215539536_LJkdm-1050x10000.jpg

    Commander Zoom on
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    Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    I get the news post. IMO the death of good art is too much second guessing. The moment you become more concerned about your critics than you are about your own vision you're screwed. These days the social pressure on media, art and especially games is so strong and very, very public, and you certainly feel that breath on your neck. Eggshells indeed.

    People can go on all they want about needing criticism and how it is right and essential... but id put forward that the amount of pressure and the number of "critics" are at an all time high. We've never had so many people putting so much pressure onto content makers in so public a way. It's worth thinking about the sheer number of "eggshells" being tossed out there

    The thing is, video games aren't just art. They are also (and often primarily) a mass-produced, mass-marketed commercial product. The whole eggshells argument is just a way of asserting ownership over a hobby and demanding it cater to your desires, regardless of what the anyone else might want. It's just bitching about how others dislike something you like, because if enough people dislike something, that might make the content creators drop it in order to appeal to a wider audience.

    Id hesitate to call my post "asserting ownership" over anything. To the contrary, I'd say the eggshell argument is specifically about NOT putting undo pressure on developers / content creators to cater to a certain subset of preferences. Does nothing of my post ring true regarding sheer volume of pressure that can be put on developers and creators? A critic is now anyone on sociak media, it can be less a "bad review" and more the fear that someone is going to start a campaign to boycott or disparage you.

    Which of course they have the right to do, it's simply a rather new trend if only I terms of scale and how public it is, and I fully sympathize with arguments that perhaps we should not encourage it.

    That absolutely is asserting ownership. It dismisses the concerns of others, characterizing the criticism as some sort of trap or obstacle created by the critic. In short, it is saying, "My concerns are relevant and important. Your concerns are frivolous and in bad faith."
    As to the rest, Not all games are art but that does not mean art excludes games. For example, the Witcher series is a deeper, more fascinating story and world than almost any movie or book I've read in the past several years. It also received a lot of pushback for raunchy content, lack of racial diversity, having a sole male lead, etc. I think it's a fantastic example of holding fairly true to artistic vision in spite of pressure and producing something magnificent. The compromises they made to appease certain demographics were small, and though I wish they hadn't I suppose I understand it. Long story short of all that is I place heavy value on people capable of creating something like that, and am wary of people who cannot, will not, but are more than content to throw mud. I can do with more of the former in my life, less of the latter.

    And you are more than free to have that opinion. But you have to accept that not everyone does. You also have to accept that what concerns we value and which ones we dismiss as mud slinging say far more about us than the people making the criticism. If the complaints are fringe or invalid, they are not going to have much of an effect on sales. On the other hand, if the complaint has traction and becomes widespread among the potential audience, that is something the developer and publisher should probably pay attention to.

    Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.

    - John Stuart Mill
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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    I get the news post. IMO the death of good art is too much second guessing. The moment you become more concerned about your critics than you are about your own vision you're screwed. These days the social pressure on media, art and especially games is so strong and very, very public, and you certainly feel that breath on your neck. Eggshells indeed.

    People can go on all they want about needing criticism and how it is right and essential... but id put forward that the amount of pressure and the number of "critics" are at an all time high. We've never had so many people putting so much pressure onto content makers in so public a way. It's worth thinking about the sheer number of "eggshells" being tossed out there

    That's just a result of Web 2.0. Everything's easier and faster. Not just criticism, but all messages.

    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Zython wrote: »

    Pretty sure that was the part that was supposed to be funny!

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    OrphaneOrphane rivers of red that run to seaRegistered User regular
    Zython wrote: »
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

    but then what would the internet even be for

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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Orphane wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

    but then what would the internet even be for

    Pornography and death threats?
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Zython wrote: »

    Pretty sure that was the part that was supposed to be funny!

    Well, don't I look stupid now?

    Zython on
    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    BaelzarBaelzar Registered User regular
    Geeks own the world now, and gaming is geek entertainment. If somebody doesn't like gaming, THEY'RE WEIRD. Just tell them that. "You're weird."

    Fuckin' weirdos.

    Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
    -P. J. O'Rourke
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