I think I may need to stop playing for a bit. Just lost a game because I was gonna go face with a Kill Command, but decided to play something else instead. And when I tried to pull it back I hit myself in the face with it. Earlier in that game I played a Scientist when I already had an Explosive Trap in play (I'm only running Explosive). Lost with them at 2 health.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I still contend that Face Hunter is an easy deck to pilot. You'd have to be a moron to mess it up too badly. Which I obviously am, because I just used an Owl to silence a Darnassus Aspirant. :redface:
I once cast Muster for Battle with Pyromancer on the board. I can't even blame coffee for that one.
That kind of thing happens to everyone. Trust me, you are in good company.
With Loatheb going away in standard can we get a new minion that just makes all spells or your opponents spell cost 1 more as long as he's on the board. We already have that for minions, it would be useful to stall Thaurrisan enabled combos.
I still contend that Face Hunter is an easy deck to pilot. You'd have to be a moron to mess it up too badly. Which I obviously am, because I just used an Owl to silence a Darnassus Aspirant. :redface:
I once cast Muster for Battle with Pyromancer on the board. I can't even blame coffee for that one.
That kind of thing happens to everyone. Trust me, you are in good company.
Aye.
I triple-checked today that the cookies were chocolate before grabbing them.
Hearthstone lessons keep on giving!
#themoreyouknow
I still contend that Face Hunter is an easy deck to pilot. You'd have to be a moron to mess it up too badly. Which I obviously am, because I just used an Owl to silence a Darnassus Aspirant. :redface:
I once cast Muster for Battle with Pyromancer on the board. I can't even blame coffee for that one.
That kind of thing happens to everyone. Trust me, you are in good company.
Aye.
I triple-checked today that the cookies were chocolate before grabbing them.
Hearthstone lessons keep on giving!
#themoreyouknow
It's true though! I have never since cast muster with pyromancer on the board!
Other grossly stupid mistakes, sure. But not that one!
I think I may need to stop playing for a bit. Just lost a game because I was gonna go face with a Kill Command, but decided to play something else instead. And when I tried to pull it back I hit myself in the face with it. Earlier in that game I played a Scientist when I already had an Explosive Trap in play (I'm only running Explosive). Lost with them at 2 health.
i have played 3 dr boom this match, and i have an antonidas (two arcane missiles set in the chamber, and a sorc apprentice/icebolt) and jaraxxus in hand
i am the most tempo of tempo mages
Yesterday I think I got the "tempo mage dream"
Turn 2 unstable portal yielded Thaurassian. He got to go off for two turns. Then on Turn 5 I got to play Antonidas and two free frostbolts. You can imagine how that game went.
I think I may need to stop playing for a bit. Just lost a game because I was gonna go face with a Kill Command, but decided to play something else instead. And when I tried to pull it back I hit myself in the face with it. Earlier in that game I played a Scientist when I already had an Explosive Trap in play (I'm only running Explosive). Lost with them at 2 health.
All. The. Fucking. Time.
When I was playing Rogue more I would constantly confuse eviscerate and cold blood. I can't tell you how many times I've eviscerated my own minion or buffed my opponents.
And I haven't done it in a while, but it's so depressing when you try to use a coin to cheat out a mountain giant one turn early and realize what you've done.
That said, I at least have a lot of trouble with Renolocks, Control Warrior, and Dragon / Inner Fire priests because I don't have the game-ending Legendaries most of the people playing them do and so they eventually outlast me. Also Dragon Priest is just stupid durable early on. If I wouldn't have to craft a bunch of the combo pieces I'd give it a try, honestly.
Those decks are actually considered favored vs combo druid.
Or almost any druid deck, really, because of Druid's lack of removal.
Druid can win if they get a super great curve, but that's less than common.
Druid can have a high chance of winning if the opponent has a very bad hand, but that's even more rare.
Druid is definitely favored against Renolock, I wouldn't even call it close. Any deck that can burst for more than 15 is favored against Renolock. Druid should also be reasonably good against Control Warrior and I'd say Dragon Priest is pretty even as it depends on who gets the better curve.
Part of my particular issue there is that they tend to Reno then drop Dr. Boom or some crazy demon nonsense or Giants and I'm pretty much out of gas due to a lack of big game-ending guys. It is most likely different for people playing Druid with legendaries besides Grom and Tinkmaster Overspark, which is pretty much what I've got outside the Naxx and Blackrock guys.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
The core problem with the card is that it reverts the game to the starting state. It makes all the work the aggro player did feel pointless, as though the first X number of turns didn't matter. He crushes dreams like the best of them.
Now, I do agree with you, I think it was necessary to print considering how poorly control strategies were performing. But it's absolutely a sledgehammer when people would prefer a scalpel. I can only imagine that discussion around Reno's effect during design helped accelerate Blizzard's decision to move to different formats.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
Sadly, yes. Aggro decks had become too consistent, and with the horde of sticky minions that exist, board clears weren't particularly effective.
The main thing is will the new set have decent spells. If it doesn't (which will probably be the case, judging by previous sets) Renolock is going to be very sad.
Nobody likes to lose because they percieve their opponent slapped the board and pieces away and yelled "earthquake, I win!" Aggro, and Reno in turn, are turning Hearthstone into this. I cant wait for the nerfpocalypse.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
I think I may need to stop playing for a bit. Just lost a game because I was gonna go face with a Kill Command, but decided to play something else instead. And when I tried to pull it back I hit myself in the face with it. Earlier in that game I played a Scientist when I already had an Explosive Trap in play (I'm only running Explosive). Lost with them at 2 health.
All. The. Fucking. Time.
When I was playing Rogue more I would constantly confuse eviscerate and cold blood. I can't tell you how many times I've eviscerated my own minion or buffed my opponents.
And I haven't done it in a while, but it's so depressing when you try to use a coin to cheat out a mountain giant one turn early and realize what you've done.
My favorite is the other day when I played a Doomsayer instead of an Unstable Pyromancer into my mostly full board and my opponent's largely empty one. "Mistakes were made."
Or, when, as a Rogue during the last brawl, I decided to play a Cold Blood early using 2 Preps. (It didn't work.)
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
It's not as if Reno singlehandedly killed aggro; it's alive and well. This is in direct opposition to some of the busted-ass midrange and aggro cards throughout HS history that have made control all but unplayable.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
I think I may need to stop playing for a bit. Just lost a game because I was gonna go face with a Kill Command, but decided to play something else instead. And when I tried to pull it back I hit myself in the face with it. Earlier in that game I played a Scientist when I already had an Explosive Trap in play (I'm only running Explosive). Lost with them at 2 health.
All. The. Fucking. Time.
When I was playing Rogue more I would constantly confuse eviscerate and cold blood. I can't tell you how many times I've eviscerated my own minion or buffed my opponents.
Just did this exact thing the other day, along with forgetting to attack them with my dagger for lethal the next turn.
I just continued the pain the match where I buffed his minion instead of killing it by killing my own and buffing his to insane levels instead of conceding. Figure might as well get all the fat finger moves out of the way in one match. Luckily my opponent understood and said sorry the helped me with my seppuku by taking off my head quickly with fireballs.
Isn't Patron one of the better decks against Druid?
At least for old Patron, statistically it was a Druid favored matchup. I don't know about the new Patron.
how can that be true? it's good because druid can't board clear and patron lives on flooding the board. you can draw badly but that's true for any deck
I find it hard to believe old patron was not favored v druid considering current patron feels pretty darn good against it
edit - I realize there are numbers somewhere probably and I may well be wrong, this is less "I literally don't believe you" and more just me expressing surprise.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
Deathlord can absolutely win games.
That is true, I overlooked Deathlord! But only one class can really run that card without suffering from its enormous drawback. He pops up in gimmick fatigue/mill decks sometimes, but I wouldn't really call that a win condition in that case.
Isn't Patron one of the better decks against Druid?
At least for old Patron, statistically it was a Druid favored matchup. I don't know about the new Patron.
how can that be true? it's good because druid can't board clear and patron lives on flooding the board. you can draw badly but that's true for any deck
I find it hard to believe old patron was not favored v druid considering current patron feels pretty darn good against it
edit - I realize there are numbers somewhere probably and I may well be wrong, this is less "I literally don't believe you" and more just me expressing surprise.
Patron was the worst matchup for druid at its height. Anytime the patron player could put 4 or more patrons on the board, the game was practically unrecoverable for druid.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
If you are running a lot of aggro decks, which sounds like the case since you say you have a limited card pool, then yeah you are going to have a rough time against Reno, particularly Reno warlocks. That deck was made to counter aggro.
Many midrange decks are going to have an easier time against Reno control because they do not devote all their resources to going face.
Take the Hunter 6 drop, for example. Savannah Highmane, better than most legendaries, and you get two of them! And it's rare, so cheap to craft.
I'm no expert on the matches for sure, but I would expect a midrange Huntwr would do much better against a Reno lock because it focuses on board before face and can finish you off in the later turns with a lot of burst.
Reno Jackson is not going to save you from a board full of dangerous minions.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
In my mind this is how the design discussions around this card went:
"Alright, we need to create a card to punish aggro. Our past attempts have failed, where can we go?"
"What if we made a better healbot? That's pretty effective against aggro, right?"
"Yeah, but not effective enough! Many aggro decks can just push through the life gain and ignore the 3/3 body. It's got to be a lot more powerful."
"What if it had a better body and healed for twice as much?"
*testing ensues*
*Aggro is still winning games when this card is played. Plus 16 is a weird number. What if we just made it so it healed you to full? It'd be powerful, unique, and create pivotal defining moments."
"Let's try that, but put a restriction on it, something like only 1 of each card in your deck.
"Sounds great! Let's do it!"
*more testing ensues*
"Um, holy shit this card is good"
"I think we fucked up. We shouldn't need a card like this."
"Yeah we fucked up. Thank god we're going to start rotating formats."
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
In my mind this is how the design discussions around this card went:
"Alright, we need to create a card to punish aggro. Our past attempts have failed, where can we go?"
"What if we made a better healbot? That's pretty effective against aggro, right?"
"Yeah, but not effective enough! Many aggro decks can just push through the life gain and ignore the 3/3 body. It's got to be a lot more powerful."
"What if it had a better body and healed for twice as much?"
*testing ensues*
*Aggro is still winning games when this card is played. Plus 16 is a weird number. What if we just made it so it healed you to full? It'd be powerful, unique, and create pivotal defining moments."
"Let's try that, but put a restriction on it, something like only 1 of each card in your deck.
"Sounds great! Let's do it!"
*more testing ensues*
"Um, holy shit this card is good"
"I think we fucked up. We shouldn't need a card like this."
"Yeah we fucked up. Thank god we're going to start rotating formats."
Reno is a good card though and not overpowered or broken.
Also they talked about the process that lead to Reno in an interview and it wasn't "we need a card to kill aggro"
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Isn't Patron one of the better decks against Druid?
At least for old Patron, statistically it was a Druid favored matchup. I don't know about the new Patron.
how can that be true? it's good because druid can't board clear and patron lives on flooding the board. you can draw badly but that's true for any deck
I find it hard to believe old patron was not favored v druid considering current patron feels pretty darn good against it
edit - I realize there are numbers somewhere probably and I may well be wrong, this is less "I literally don't believe you" and more just me expressing surprise.
I honestly don't know, and in the stats write-up that revealed this Monk was also like "wat." If I had to guess I'd say it's because Druid was good at not giving Patron enough time to build up a big armor gain combo before they were in combo range, at which point flooding the board doesn't matter?
re: accidentally targeting yourself, you should right click to cancel a card. Less chance of that happening.
And I don't mean to dismiss your frustration. I get frustrated by the deck too, and I have almost all the good cards. I'm just saying that everyone who is an experienced player has had the experience of "fuck this fucking bullshit OP card" and then found out the card isn't quite as OP as they imagined.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
If you are running a lot of aggro decks, which sounds like the case since you say you have a limited card pool, then yeah you are going to have a rough time against Reno, particularly Reno warlocks. That deck was made to counter aggro.
Many midrange decks are going to have an easier time against Reno control because they do not devote all their resources to going face.
Take the Hunter 6 drop, for example. Savannah Highmane, better than most legendaries, and you get two of them! And it's rare, so cheap to craft.
I'm no expert on the matches for sure, but I would expect a midrange Huntwr would do much better against a Reno lock because it focuses on board before face and can finish you off in the later turns with a lot of burst.
Reno Jackson is not going to save you from a board full of dangerous minions.
This seems completely reasonable, and Reno is another instance (like with the Formats change) where I can understand how what's good for the game may not align with what's good (or even be actively detrimental) for me personally. Doesn't make it feel any better, though.
And I've mostly played Midrange Hunter because it's the one of only two competent decks I can make (that isn't dirty Face Hunter; the other being Patron). And Reno is still auto win because I only have one Highmane and by the time Reno hits he's usually been taken care of. Which leaves me with a whole lotta nothing and usually at best half-health while they're right back where they started and since it's late-game they can just start dropping bombs I have no answer for.
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
In my mind this is how the design discussions around this card went:
"Alright, we need to create a card to punish aggro. Our past attempts have failed, where can we go?"
"What if we made a better healbot? That's pretty effective against aggro, right?"
"Yeah, but not effective enough! Many aggro decks can just push through the life gain and ignore the 3/3 body. It's got to be a lot more powerful."
"What if it had a better body and healed for twice as much?"
*testing ensues*
*Aggro is still winning games when this card is played. Plus 16 is a weird number. What if we just made it so it healed you to full? It'd be powerful, unique, and create pivotal defining moments."
"Let's try that, but put a restriction on it, something like only 1 of each card in your deck.
"Sounds great! Let's do it!"
*more testing ensues*
"Um, holy shit this card is good"
"I think we fucked up. We shouldn't need a card like this."
"Yeah we fucked up. Thank god we're going to start rotating formats."
Reno is a good card though and not overpowered or broken.
Also they talked about the process that lead to Reno in an interview and it wasn't "we need a card to kill aggro"
don't believe the lies!
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El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
I honestly don't understand the Reno hate. Control decks absolutely needed something like that and they make a huge strategic trade off (consistency) to get it.
It is a win condition unto itself, it absolutely should end games.
Reno invalidates your progress entirely, but you're still out whatever cards you've used. People hate Reno because that isn't fun.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
Deathlord can absolutely win games.
That is true, I overlooked Deathlord! But only one class can really run that card without suffering from its enormous drawback. He pops up in gimmick fatigue/mill decks sometimes, but I wouldn't really call that a win condition in that case.
The Deathlord drawback has a lot more to do with the class you're playing against than it does the class you're playing him with, imo.
If you play him against an aggro deck, he is fantastic regardless what you are playing. Almost all the time he'll soak 8 HP worth of face damage while forcing the aggro deck to use 2-4 cards to deal with it, and in return the aggro deck gets a free weenie minion that often was included for its battlecry (ie abusive sergeant, BGH, Dark Peddler etc). It's super good in these cases even if you aren't playing priest (where it just expects to tie up more cards from your opponent to deal with).
The problem is when your opponent is playing a ramp/control deck and has a good chance of getting a free ET or Ysera, or something of equivalent value. In those cases Deathlord can be a major drawback, and might sit in your hand.
I really just consider him an anti-aggro tech card- if you're facing a lot of face hunters or zoolocks etc and tilting a bit then he's a great include.
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Ooh it's the deckbuilding brawl again. I really like this one.
I still haven't been able to bring myself to disenchant my golden Ragnaros. He just looks neat. But I know since I have plain Ragnaros I should recycle him into one of the many legendaries I don't have.
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Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
I once cast Muster for Battle with Pyromancer on the board. I can't even blame coffee for that one.
That kind of thing happens to everyone. Trust me, you are in good company.
And Muster for Battle! A world without turn 3 board filling 1/1s. Maybe hex becomes good again!
Aye.
I triple-checked today that the cookies were chocolate before grabbing them.
Hearthstone lessons keep on giving!
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wra
Some games you draw all the right pieces and the game is over by turn 7. Other games, you'll get behind and then have no real way to catch up.
But then there are those magical games where every draw is a silent prayer to RNGesus.
It's true though! I have never since cast muster with pyromancer on the board!
Other grossly stupid mistakes, sure. But not that one!
All. The. Fucking. Time.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Yesterday I think I got the "tempo mage dream"
Turn 2 unstable portal yielded Thaurassian. He got to go off for two turns. Then on Turn 5 I got to play Antonidas and two free frostbolts. You can imagine how that game went.
When I was playing Rogue more I would constantly confuse eviscerate and cold blood. I can't tell you how many times I've eviscerated my own minion or buffed my opponents.
And I haven't done it in a while, but it's so depressing when you try to use a coin to cheat out a mountain giant one turn early and realize what you've done.
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Part of my particular issue there is that they tend to Reno then drop Dr. Boom or some crazy demon nonsense or Giants and I'm pretty much out of gas due to a lack of big game-ending guys. It is most likely different for people playing Druid with legendaries besides Grom and Tinkmaster Overspark, which is pretty much what I've got outside the Naxx and Blackrock guys.
The core problem with the card is that it reverts the game to the starting state. It makes all the work the aggro player did feel pointless, as though the first X number of turns didn't matter. He crushes dreams like the best of them.
Now, I do agree with you, I think it was necessary to print considering how poorly control strategies were performing. But it's absolutely a sledgehammer when people would prefer a scalpel. I can only imagine that discussion around Reno's effect during design helped accelerate Blizzard's decision to move to different formats.
Control decks already have chow, unstable ghoul, deathlord, sludge belcher, healbot, and more recently refreshment vendor and Justicar. Did they also need a one-card full heal on top of that?
Sadly, yes. Aggro decks had become too consistent, and with the horde of sticky minions that exist, board clears weren't particularly effective.
None of those things, except maybe Justicar, can actually win a game. They're either delay tactics or tempo plays for control decks in a game where tempo is critical. None of that lets you win, it just lets you compete.
There are a number of aggro decks that can finish games on or before turn 6, I don't see how that's more fun for the opposing player than Reno. Again, it is a single card with a huge opportunity cost to play, and it is one card out of 30.
My favorite is the other day when I played a Doomsayer instead of an Unstable Pyromancer into my mostly full board and my opponent's largely empty one. "Mistakes were made."
Or, when, as a Rogue during the last brawl, I decided to play a Cold Blood early using 2 Preps. (It didn't work.)
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Deathlord can absolutely win games.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Just did this exact thing the other day, along with forgetting to attack them with my dagger for lethal the next turn.
I just continued the pain the match where I buffed his minion instead of killing it by killing my own and buffing his to insane levels instead of conceding. Figure might as well get all the fat finger moves out of the way in one match. Luckily my opponent understood and said sorry the helped me with my seppuku by taking off my head quickly with fireballs.
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how can that be true? it's good because druid can't board clear and patron lives on flooding the board. you can draw badly but that's true for any deck
I find it hard to believe old patron was not favored v druid considering current patron feels pretty darn good against it
edit - I realize there are numbers somewhere probably and I may well be wrong, this is less "I literally don't believe you" and more just me expressing surprise.
You may be correct that in the grand scheme of things, Reno is fine or maybe even necessary. But in the land of people who don't have every card (which is a double-edged sword because I neither have enough cards to counter him or enough cards to effectively use him), a single 6 mana card that is an automatic win (I literally don't think I've ever won a game where he's been played) fucking sucks. If he had been a 15pt heal, he'd probably still be very effective but wouldn't be an automatic win. He might as well been named Haha Fuck You Noob Jackson.
That is true, I overlooked Deathlord! But only one class can really run that card without suffering from its enormous drawback. He pops up in gimmick fatigue/mill decks sometimes, but I wouldn't really call that a win condition in that case.
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Patron was the worst matchup for druid at its height. Anytime the patron player could put 4 or more patrons on the board, the game was practically unrecoverable for druid.
If you are running a lot of aggro decks, which sounds like the case since you say you have a limited card pool, then yeah you are going to have a rough time against Reno, particularly Reno warlocks. That deck was made to counter aggro.
Many midrange decks are going to have an easier time against Reno control because they do not devote all their resources to going face.
Take the Hunter 6 drop, for example. Savannah Highmane, better than most legendaries, and you get two of them! And it's rare, so cheap to craft.
I'm no expert on the matches for sure, but I would expect a midrange Huntwr would do much better against a Reno lock because it focuses on board before face and can finish you off in the later turns with a lot of burst.
Reno Jackson is not going to save you from a board full of dangerous minions.
In my mind this is how the design discussions around this card went:
"Alright, we need to create a card to punish aggro. Our past attempts have failed, where can we go?"
"What if we made a better healbot? That's pretty effective against aggro, right?"
"Yeah, but not effective enough! Many aggro decks can just push through the life gain and ignore the 3/3 body. It's got to be a lot more powerful."
"What if it had a better body and healed for twice as much?"
*testing ensues*
*Aggro is still winning games when this card is played. Plus 16 is a weird number. What if we just made it so it healed you to full? It'd be powerful, unique, and create pivotal defining moments."
"Let's try that, but put a restriction on it, something like only 1 of each card in your deck.
"Sounds great! Let's do it!"
*more testing ensues*
"Um, holy shit this card is good"
"I think we fucked up. We shouldn't need a card like this."
"Yeah we fucked up. Thank god we're going to start rotating formats."
Reno is a good card though and not overpowered or broken.
Also they talked about the process that lead to Reno in an interview and it wasn't "we need a card to kill aggro"
I honestly don't know, and in the stats write-up that revealed this Monk was also like "wat." If I had to guess I'd say it's because Druid was good at not giving Patron enough time to build up a big armor gain combo before they were in combo range, at which point flooding the board doesn't matter?
re: accidentally targeting yourself, you should right click to cancel a card. Less chance of that happening.
This seems completely reasonable, and Reno is another instance (like with the Formats change) where I can understand how what's good for the game may not align with what's good (or even be actively detrimental) for me personally. Doesn't make it feel any better, though.
And I've mostly played Midrange Hunter because it's the one of only two competent decks I can make (that isn't dirty Face Hunter; the other being Patron). And Reno is still auto win because I only have one Highmane and by the time Reno hits he's usually been taken care of. Which leaves me with a whole lotta nothing and usually at best half-health while they're right back where they started and since it's late-game they can just start dropping bombs I have no answer for.
don't believe the lies!
The Deathlord drawback has a lot more to do with the class you're playing against than it does the class you're playing him with, imo.
If you play him against an aggro deck, he is fantastic regardless what you are playing. Almost all the time he'll soak 8 HP worth of face damage while forcing the aggro deck to use 2-4 cards to deal with it, and in return the aggro deck gets a free weenie minion that often was included for its battlecry (ie abusive sergeant, BGH, Dark Peddler etc). It's super good in these cases even if you aren't playing priest (where it just expects to tie up more cards from your opponent to deal with).
The problem is when your opponent is playing a ramp/control deck and has a good chance of getting a free ET or Ysera, or something of equivalent value. In those cases Deathlord can be a major drawback, and might sit in your hand.
I really just consider him an anti-aggro tech card- if you're facing a lot of face hunters or zoolocks etc and tilting a bit then he's a great include.