It's not so much insult the terrorists its literally playing into the exact mentality that turns them radical.
Religious beliefs are not and should never be above mockery. This has been beaten to death on this forum, especially after the Charlie Hebdo attack, but I'm pretty much firmly planted in the "too bad you're offended, but tough shit" camp. I realize that's probably a minority/unpopular opinion around these parts, but events like this serve as stark reminders (to me anyway) of the importance of not kowtowing to those who seek to impose their beliefs on others through subjugation and violence.
Just to be clear, you are helping the terrorists with their end goals pretty much 100%.
I get the "you're offended, I don't care, because I'm a big silly goose", thing, but this isn't saying their religion is above ridicule what I'm saying is fucking cool it because you making fun of their core fucking beliefs and fucking alienating them is 100% what Daesh wants you to do. Stop following the fucking enemy's plan ya goose.
ISIS also wants Islam to be universally respected. They win either way.
The important questions are not "is this what ISIS wants" but "is this what we ought feel free to do, and is it a good idea?" and while the answer to the latter half of the second question might be "no" it need not be because the ISIS wants it.
I mean, they are in part motivated by eschatological prophecy that contends their caliphate will suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the infidel in Dabiq and the survivors will rally the rest of the Muslim world to their side. Yet, if we had a chance to more or less defeat them in the city of Dabiq would the fact that this is in keeping with their goals be the remotest of reasons not to take the opportunity?
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
It's not so much insult the terrorists its literally playing into the exact mentality that turns them radical.
Religious beliefs are not and should never be above mockery. This has been beaten to death on this forum, especially after the Charlie Hebdo attack, but I'm pretty much firmly planted in the "too bad you're offended, but tough shit" camp. I realize that's probably a minority/unpopular opinion around these parts, but events like this serve as stark reminders (to me anyway) of the importance of not kowtowing to those who seek to impose their beliefs on others through subjugation and violence.
Just to be clear, you are helping the terrorists with their end goals pretty much 100%.
I get the "you're offended, I don't care, because I'm a big silly goose", thing, but this isn't saying their religion is above ridicule what I'm saying is fucking cool it because you making fun of their core fucking beliefs and fucking alienating them is 100% what Daesh wants you to do. Stop following the fucking enemy's plan ya goose.
ISIS also wants Islam to be universally respected. They win either way.
The important questions are not "is this what ISIS wants" but "is this what we ought feel free to do, and is it a good idea?" and while the answer to the latter half of the second question might be "no" it need not be because the ISIS wants it.
I mean, they are in part motivated by eschatological prophecy that contends their caliphate will suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the infidel in Dabiq and the survivors will rally the rest of the Muslim world to their side. Yet, if we had a chance to more or less defeat them in the city of Dabiq would the fact that this is in keeping with their goals be the remotest of reasons not to take the opportunity?
There is a huge difference between wanting Islam to be the only religion and wanting Islam to be respected.
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
It's a cheap shot taken at the religious identity of the attackers, highlighting that thing above all else. A comparison might be if I chose to highlight a violent crime suspect's transgender status, as though that is what motivated their actions.
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
Would poop have been acceptable or funny?
Cause, actually? Here, probably a no and a no.
But it is if it is a thing only people who share their beliefs would find offensive. This makes it funny. Cause they are different.
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I think he meat more explicit about the story regarding Trump and the comments. Pretty sure he has some basic knowledge about Muslims and their dietary restrictions...
edit; ha! typo "meat" instead of "meant".
Trump recounted a story where Muslims were shot with bullets dipped in pig's blood to desecrate their bodies.
It's not so much insult the terrorists its literally playing into the exact mentality that turns them radical.
Religious beliefs are not and should never be above mockery. This has been beaten to death on this forum, especially after the Charlie Hebdo attack, but I'm pretty much firmly planted in the "too bad you're offended, but tough shit" camp. I realize that's probably a minority/unpopular opinion around these parts, but events like this serve as stark reminders (to me anyway) of the importance of not kowtowing to those who seek to impose their beliefs on others through subjugation and violence.
Just to be clear, you are helping the terrorists with their end goals pretty much 100%.
I get the "you're offended, I don't care, because I'm a big silly goose", thing, but this isn't saying their religion is above ridicule what I'm saying is fucking cool it because you making fun of their core fucking beliefs and fucking alienating them is 100% what Daesh wants you to do. Stop following the fucking enemy's plan ya goose.
ISIS also wants Islam to be universally respected. They win either way.
The important questions are not "is this what ISIS wants" but "is this what we ought feel free to do, and is it a good idea?" and while the answer to the latter half of the second question might be "no" it need not be because the ISIS wants it.
I mean, they are in part motivated by eschatological prophecy that contends their caliphate will suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the infidel in Dabiq and the survivors will rally the rest of the Muslim world to their side. Yet, if we had a chance to more or less defeat them in the city of Dabiq would the fact that this is in keeping with their goals be the remotest of reasons not to take the opportunity?
Actually yes, I would strive at all costs to isolate them completely there, and never actually defeat them. The last thing you do when fighting religious extremists is fulfill their fucking prophecy!
IN CASE ANYONE HAS FORGOTTEN, WE DO NOT ENGAGE IN STUPID STEREOTYPING HERE BECAUSE WE ARE NOT FUCKWITS.
ANY FURTHER REMINDERS OF THIS WILL BE ACCOMPANIED BY SHARP BLOWS WITH A STICK.
THANK YOU.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
It's a cheap shot taken at the religious identity of the attackers, highlighting that thing above all else. A comparison might be if I chose to highlight a violent crime suspect's transgender status, as though that is what motivated their actions.
Unless you are going to stipulate a transgender militia group destabilising San Francisco and a whole bunch of other geopolitical and ideological parallels this an obvious disanalogy.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
It's not so much insult the terrorists its literally playing into the exact mentality that turns them radical.
Religious beliefs are not and should never be above mockery. This has been beaten to death on this forum, especially after the Charlie Hebdo attack, but I'm pretty much firmly planted in the "too bad you're offended, but tough shit" camp. I realize that's probably a minority/unpopular opinion around these parts, but events like this serve as stark reminders (to me anyway) of the importance of not kowtowing to those who seek to impose their beliefs on others through subjugation and violence.
Just to be clear, you are helping the terrorists with their end goals pretty much 100%.
I get the "you're offended, I don't care, because I'm a big silly goose", thing, but this isn't saying their religion is above ridicule what I'm saying is fucking cool it because you making fun of their core fucking beliefs and fucking alienating them is 100% what Daesh wants you to do. Stop following the fucking enemy's plan ya goose.
ISIS also wants Islam to be universally respected. They win either way.
The important questions are not "is this what ISIS wants" but "is this what we ought feel free to do, and is it a good idea?" and while the answer to the latter half of the second question might be "no" it need not be because the ISIS wants it.
I mean, they are in part motivated by eschatological prophecy that contends their caliphate will suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the infidel in Dabiq and the survivors will rally the rest of the Muslim world to their side. Yet, if we had a chance to more or less defeat them in the city of Dabiq would the fact that this is in keeping with their goals be the remotest of reasons not to take the opportunity?
There is a huge difference between wanting Islam to be the only religion and wanting Islam to be respected.
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
Eh, dog / cat taboos are the most reasonable of all eating taboos, because dogs and cats are the two best bros to humans. Dogs and humans have such a special relationship that dogs actually beat primates in many ways on communication with humans. Cats are much less so, but there's a lot to be said for a good mouser in agrarian setting.
The insect taboo is much more akin, really. And it may end up being a negative reflection on one's character to keep said taboo in the future, FWIW.
It's not so much insult the terrorists its literally playing into the exact mentality that turns them radical.
Religious beliefs are not and should never be above mockery. This has been beaten to death on this forum, especially after the Charlie Hebdo attack, but I'm pretty much firmly planted in the "too bad you're offended, but tough shit" camp. I realize that's probably a minority/unpopular opinion around these parts, but events like this serve as stark reminders (to me anyway) of the importance of not kowtowing to those who seek to impose their beliefs on others through subjugation and violence.
Just to be clear, you are helping the terrorists with their end goals pretty much 100%.
I get the "you're offended, I don't care, because I'm a big silly goose", thing, but this isn't saying their religion is above ridicule what I'm saying is fucking cool it because you making fun of their core fucking beliefs and fucking alienating them is 100% what Daesh wants you to do. Stop following the fucking enemy's plan ya goose.
ISIS also wants Islam to be universally respected. They win either way.
The important questions are not "is this what ISIS wants" but "is this what we ought feel free to do, and is it a good idea?" and while the answer to the latter half of the second question might be "no" it need not be because the ISIS wants it.
I mean, they are in part motivated by eschatological prophecy that contends their caliphate will suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the infidel in Dabiq and the survivors will rally the rest of the Muslim world to their side. Yet, if we had a chance to more or less defeat them in the city of Dabiq would the fact that this is in keeping with their goals be the remotest of reasons not to take the opportunity?
Actually yes, I would strive at all costs to isolate them completely there, and never actually defeat them. The last thing you do when fighting religious extremists is fulfill their fucking prophecy!
Ideally, they would be defeated in Dabiq and then apocalypse wouldn't happen, thus refuting the prophecy. It's fairly likely that either the Syrian government, Syrian rebels, or Kurdish-led SDF will do this in the relatively near future.
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
It's a cheap shot taken at the religious identity of the attackers, highlighting that thing above all else. A comparison might be if I chose to highlight a violent crime suspect's transgender status, as though that is what motivated their actions.
Unless you are going to stipulate a transgender militia group destabilising San Francisco and a whole bunch of other geopolitical and ideological parallels this an obvious disanalogy.
I believe you missed the point entirely: that choosing to take a cheap shot at part of someone's identity (religious or otherwise) to stereotype them is a bad thing to do, regardless of whether or not you think the stereotyping is somehow justified.
With Love and Courage
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Can we not do the insult muslims we don't like with pork products? There are plenty of people who don't blow people up that don't eat pork.
How is it insulting anyone?
In the same way as Trump's little story about the bullets dipped in pig's blood.
You are going to have to be more explicit.
Pork is not (generally) eaten by Muslims as a tradition, and there is a rather insulting western myth orbiting this tradition that suggests Muslims are afraid of pigs / pork products (thus the reason they don't eat pork, you see).
The tradition is not especially strange; most cultures have some taboos / prohibitions against eating some arbitrary animal group. Westerners do not eat dogs or cats (generally), for example.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
It's a cheap shot taken at the religious identity of the attackers, highlighting that thing above all else. A comparison might be if I chose to highlight a violent crime suspect's transgender status, as though that is what motivated their actions.
Unless you are going to stipulate a transgender militia group destabilising San Francisco and a whole bunch of other geopolitical and ideological parallels this an obvious disanalogy.
I believe you missed the point entirely: that choosing to take a cheap shot at part of someone's identity (religious or otherwise) to stereotype them is a bad thing to do, regardless of whether or not you think the stereotyping is somehow justified.
I do not follow your logic or suspect we understand the word "stereotype" in radically divergent fashions.
Fine. I think it may be best that you create a thread more tailored to the discussion if you wish to defend the position that religious groups are worthy of scorn and/or that the Muslim faith is a positive predictor for violence (and hence it is presumably somehow not really stereotyping the call out the religious identity).
I think that tangent has exhausted itself in this thread.
Apothe0sis, I do not understand how you are unconvinced that plastering images of bacon over photos of IS terrorists is insulting toward many Muslims. Maybe if it occurred in a vacuum it would be more debatable, but in the context of the current global situation and the rising hatred toward Muslims in the US and Europe, as well as the frequent habit of some (especially on the right) to loudly conflate Muslims and terrorists, images like the one that started this conversation serve a dangerous and all too common narrative (as well as not making any insightful point or being productive in any manner).
Here's what I see, no matter what we do — they win.
Do nothing? They win.
Tighten security? They win.
Blow them away? They win.
The majority of the Muslim world understands ISIS is bullshit. Anyone who can be radicalized at this point can probably be swayed no matter what we do, so let's do the one thing we still do best and end these fuckers.
The guy who made these bombs is still on the loose.
Apothe0sis, I do not understand how you are unconvinced that plastering images of bacon over photos of IS terrorists is insulting toward many Muslims. Maybe if it occurred in a vacuum it would be more debatable, but in the context of the current global situation and the rising hatred toward Muslims in the US and Europe, as well as the frequent habit of some (especially on the right) to loudly conflate Muslims and terrorists, images like the one that started this conversation serve a dangerous and all too common narrative (as well as not making any insightful point or being productive in any manner).
I don't know how you think it plays into any equivalence of Muslims and terrorists, hatred of Muslims in general or anything else.
The only way the logic works is if we assume everyone buys the "all Muslims are terrorists" strawman, which even the right wing nut cases that actually get airtime by and large deny!
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Ap0 for real cut the shit
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
My basic way of judging whether something is poor taste or offensive is: Does it look like something my Uncle Hank would share on Facebook? If yes....it's probably offensive.
HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Oh and for real this kind of unhelpful, "I"M JUST SAYIN' [insert statement about how Islam is inherently violent] but I'm not saying all Muslims are terrorists but why are all terrorists Muslims??" spewing out of people's mouths is exactly what I expected the moment I woke up this morning and saw the news and it is exactly why all day I walked around with a pit in my stomach feeling sick, because frankly islamaphobia is already potent enough and it is only feeding on more fuel like this
Anyway I'm done
3DS: 2165 - 6538 - 3417
NNID: Hakkekage
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
I think you are reading things that aren't there, and certainly do not think that you could so characterise tinwhiskers.
Consider the order of events:
The photo of the terrorists are posted.
The Ender points out that promises of at least infamy are considered one of the motivating factors for ISIS recruited or inspired terrorists
You counter that it is unlikely to be that great a factor and point out the third is still at large
The Ender suggests that we ought at least cover the dead terrorists in service of the aforesaid principle
tinwhiskers covers them in a fashion that could be considered ignominious due to it being ritually unclean, given the other suggestions that would not grant the ostensible infamy and respect The Ender was concerned with would be in violation of the NSFW rules of the forum
Now, you might say "but other people do X and Y" and that is racist and that does equate to the implications you have outlined. And that may well be true. However, we as a forum are composed of intelligent people who do not do these things and we can easily differentiate between "what was said here" and "what other, stupid and bad people might say".
As for it being humour out of place - I find it difficult to adjudicate appropriate reactions in principle so, that is something I doubt will be a productive avenue of criticism.
NB I Don't know what the South Park bear is/represents
Here's what I see, no matter what we do — they win.
Do nothing? They win.
Tighten security? They win.
Blow them away? They win.
The majority of the Muslim world understands ISIS is bullshit. Anyone who can be radicalized at this point can probably be swayed no matter what we do, so let's do the one thing we still do best and end these fuckers.
The guy who made these bombs is still on the loose.
It's certainly a problem that their goals & methods are so low bar, but the idea that, "Well, we just need to go all Terminator on their asses already!" is just an emotionally satisfying response that has been touted as the 'obvious' solution ever since Castille crossed swords with the Moors.
Killing jihadists and/or deciding to escalate the level of brutality against radicalized Muslims, even if somehow we want to claim that we don't care about the ethical ramifications of that kind of activity, does not work.
Long term solutions involve opening new ventures & opportunities that youth that feel isolated / disaffected / insignificant and want something greater to aspire to. Obvious things that could be on offer are interesting career paths, specialized study, role models & job opportunities in popular culture, etc. Short term solutions mostly involve reaching out to Imams & other religious leaders, who are some of the only people known to have a proven track record for steering teenagers who feel lost away from violent radicalization.
With Love and Courage
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GatorAn alligator in ScotlandRegistered Userregular
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
I think you are reading things that aren't there, and certainly do not think that you could so characterise tinwhiskers.
Consider the order of events:
The photo of the terrorists are posted.
The Ender points out that promises of at least infamy are considered one of the motivating factors for ISIS recruited or inspired terrorists
You counter that it is unlikely to be that great a factor and point out the third is still at large
The Ender suggests that we ought at least cover the dead terrorists in service of the aforesaid principle
tinwhiskers covers them in a fashion that could be considered ignominious due to it being ritually unclean, given the other suggestions that would not grant the ostensible infamy and respect The Ender was concerned with would be in violation of the NSFW rules of the forum
Now, you might say "but other people do X and Y" and that is racist and that does equate to the implications you have outlined. And that may well be true. However, we as a forum are composed of intelligent people who do not do these things and we can easily differentiate between "what was said here" and "what other, stupid and bad people might say".
As for it being humour out of place - I find it difficult to adjudicate appropriate reactions in principle so, that is something I doubt will be a productive avenue of criticism.
NB I Don't know what the South Park bear is/represents
If that's the way you think, that's the way you think. But I really think you should have kept a discreet silence and leave this matter alone after Haks' post, if only for basic human decency and respect
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
I'm certainly not reading into things that aren't there. It was ignorant. You asked who was being insulted? Hi! Hello.
I'm sure Tinwhiskers appreciates your ardent defense of his dumb attempt at a joke in order to defend a larger worldview that irreverent "criticism" of religions should be itself free of criticism or offense regardless of how many thin skinned lilies it bruises, but criticism is not what that was
Oh and when you say that pork is "ritually unclean" you sound like a honking goose give me a break you just don't eat pork when you're Muslim good god it's not like it's a fucking peanut allergy, when you want to dispel vegans from the area you don't wave full fat milk in their general direction, Muslims don't recoil from pork like vampires confronted with garlic ffs
It's not so much insult the terrorists its literally playing into the exact mentality that turns them radical.
Religious beliefs are not and should never be above mockery. This has been beaten to death on this forum, especially after the Charlie Hebdo attack, but I'm pretty much firmly planted in the "too bad you're offended, but tough shit" camp. I realize that's probably a minority/unpopular opinion around these parts, but events like this serve as stark reminders (to me anyway) of the importance of not kowtowing to those who seek to impose their beliefs on others through subjugation and violence.
I personally also don't like the unreasonable level of reverence expected for others' supernatural beliefs. However, in the U.S. at least, mocking Christian beliefs and mocking the beliefs of other religions (like Islam) isn't exactly the same. The former group is a major influence on the populace (to the point that I, as an agnostic, am afraid to tell people I'm not a Christian) while the latter is already viewed with distrust for not believing a certain way.
Here's what I see, no matter what we do — they win.
Do nothing? They win.
Tighten security? They win.
Blow them away? They win.
The majority of the Muslim world understands ISIS is bullshit. Anyone who can be radicalized at this point can probably be swayed no matter what we do, so let's do the one thing we still do best and end these fuckers.
The guy who made these bombs is still on the loose.
It's certainly a problem that their goals & methods are so low bar, but the idea that, "Well, we just need to go all Terminator on their asses already!" is just an emotionally satisfying response that has been touted as the 'obvious' solution ever since Castille crossed swords with the Moors.
Killing jihadists and/or deciding to escalate the level of brutality against radicalized Muslims, even if somehow we want to claim that we don't care about the ethical ramifications of that kind of activity, does not work.
Long term solutions involve opening new ventures & opportunities that youth that feel isolated / disaffected / insignificant and want something greater to aspire to. Obvious things that could be on offer are interesting career paths, specialized study, role models & job opportunities in popular culture, etc. Short term solutions mostly involve reaching out to Imams & other religious leaders, who are some of the only people known to have a proven track record for steering teenagers who feel lost away from violent radicalization.
I'm certainly not reading into things that aren't there. It was ignorant. You asked who was being insulted? Hi! Hello.
I'm sure Tinwhiskers appreciates your ardent defense of his dumb attempt at a joke in order to defend a larger worldview that irreverent "criticism" of religions should be itself free of criticism or offense regardless of how many thin skinned lilies it bruises, but criticism is not what that was
Oh and when you say that pork is "ritually unclean" you sound like a honking goose give me a break you just don't eat pork when you're Muslim good god it's not like it's a fucking peanut allergy, when you want to dispel vegans from the area you don't wave full fat milk in their general direction, Muslims don't recoil from pork like vampires confronted with garlic ffs
I was actually under the impression that Muslims aren't supposed to eat food stored in a container with pork. I feel like I remember reading somewhere about how some companies in Malaysia (I think?) forbid non-Muslims from eating pork at work or storing it in break room refrigerators.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
I'm certainly not reading into things that aren't there. It was ignorant. You asked who was being insulted? Hi! Hello.
I'm sure Tinwhiskers appreciates your ardent defense of his dumb attempt at a joke in order to defend a larger worldview that irreverent "criticism" of religions should be itself free of criticism or offense regardless of how many thin skinned lilies it bruises, but criticism is not what that was
Oh and when you say that pork is "ritually unclean" you sound like a honking goose give me a break you just don't eat pork when you're Muslim good god it's not like it's a fucking peanut allergy, when you want to dispel vegans from the area you don't wave full fat milk in their general direction, Muslims don't recoil from pork like vampires confronted with garlic ffs
I was actually under the impression that Muslims aren't supposed to eat food stored in a container with pork. I feel like I remember reading somewhere about how some companies in Malaysia (I think?) forbid non-Muslims from eating pork at work or storing it in break room refrigerators.
Like all major world religions it is regional and individual how strictly these kinds of proscriptions are taken
The strictest Muslims will not eat any meat that cannot be verifiably confirmed halal, pork or not
The loosiest goosiest Muslims will eat any and all meat aside from pork even if it was cooked in bacon grease because eating in restaurants would be fuckin impossible
3DS: 2165 - 6538 - 3417
NNID: Hakkekage
+3
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
I'm certainly not reading into things that aren't there. It was ignorant. You asked who was being insulted? Hi! Hello.
I'm sure Tinwhiskers appreciates your ardent defense of his dumb attempt at a joke in order to defend a larger worldview that irreverent "criticism" of religions should be itself free of criticism or offense regardless of how many thin skinned lilies it bruises, but criticism is not what that was
Oh and when you say that pork is "ritually unclean" you sound like a honking goose give me a break you just don't eat pork when you're Muslim good god it's not like it's a fucking peanut allergy, when you want to dispel vegans from the area you don't wave full fat milk in their general direction, Muslims don't recoil from pork like vampires confronted with garlic ffs
Ritually unclean is a standard academic term for religious dietary restrictions. It doesn't contain any implication of vampire like aversion or even great psychological distress.
I am not contesting this point due to any such motivation.
I asked how it is insulting people. Not who. Not all offense is legitimate.
+1
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GatorAn alligator in ScotlandRegistered Userregular
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
Now, you might say "but other people do X and Y" and that is racist and that does equate to the implications you have outlined. And that may well be true. However, we as a forum are composed of intelligent people who do not do these things and we can easily differentiate between "what was said here" and "what other, stupid and bad people might say".
This is the cherry on top of all the silly gooseness
since this is a forum composed of intelligent people we might as well go and spout white supremacist stuff
get rid of the n-word forum rule since we're at it
Here's what I see, no matter what we do — they win.
Do nothing? They win.
Tighten security? They win.
Blow them away? They win.
The majority of the Muslim world understands ISIS is bullshit. Anyone who can be radicalized at this point can probably be swayed no matter what we do, so let's do the one thing we still do best and end these fuckers.
The guy who made these bombs is still on the loose.
It's certainly a problem that their goals & methods are so low bar, but the idea that, "Well, we just need to go all Terminator on their asses already!" is just an emotionally satisfying response that has been touted as the 'obvious' solution ever since Castille crossed swords with the Moors.
Killing jihadists and/or deciding to escalate the level of brutality against radicalized Muslims, even if somehow we want to claim that we don't care about the ethical ramifications of that kind of activity, does not work.
Long term solutions involve opening new ventures & opportunities that youth that feel isolated / disaffected / insignificant and want something greater to aspire to. Obvious things that could be on offer are interesting career paths, specialized study, role models & job opportunities in popular culture, etc. Short term solutions mostly involve reaching out to Imams & other religious leaders, who are some of the only people known to have a proven track record for steering teenagers who feel lost away from violent radicalization.
Do you know why those teenagers feel lost?
Many of the same reasons any teenager can feel lost / isolated (...and on top of that, there can be extra complications for immigrants experiencing culture shock and/or feeling left out of the greater story their new country is telling, since they may not see the surrounding culture celebrating anything they identify with).
Here is Maysa's story. Note the appeal of finding new friends, joining exclusive / secret clubs, doing something that is really special / romantic & feels like you're blazing a new trail in your life. Those can all be healthy & positive things, and I think most people can identify with at least some of them - but they can also be leveraged by gangs / cults / fundamentalists / etc to attract new recruits. That's much of the same story seen with ISIS (and other jihadist groups).
Constructive outlets that can fill the same role but with different outcomes should be our focus, IMHO (again, long term).
I'm certainly not reading into things that aren't there. It was ignorant. You asked who was being insulted? Hi! Hello.
I'm sure Tinwhiskers appreciates your ardent defense of his dumb attempt at a joke in order to defend a larger worldview that irreverent "criticism" of religions should be itself free of criticism or offense regardless of how many thin skinned lilies it bruises, but criticism is not what that was
Oh and when you say that pork is "ritually unclean" you sound like a honking goose give me a break you just don't eat pork when you're Muslim good god it's not like it's a fucking peanut allergy, when you want to dispel vegans from the area you don't wave full fat milk in their general direction, Muslims don't recoil from pork like vampires confronted with garlic ffs
Ritually unclean is a standard academic term for religious dietary restrictions. It doesn't contain any implication of vampire like aversion or even great psychological distress.
I am not contesting this point due to any such motivation.
I asked how it is insulting people. Not who. Not all offense is legitimate.
Is nailing down the precise definition of what you think people are allowed to find offensive going to do any person any good at all?
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
Now, you might say "but other people do X and Y" and that is racist and that does equate to the implications you have outlined. And that may well be true. However, we as a forum are composed of intelligent people who do not do these things and we can easily differentiate between "what was said here" and "what other, stupid and bad people might say".
This is the cherry on top of all the silly gooseness
since this is a forum composed of intelligent people we might as well go and spout white supremacist stuff
get rid of the n-word forum rule since we're at it
Perhaps I was wrong about the capacities of intelligent people as this is not remotely a consequence of what I said there.
Here's what I see, no matter what we do — they win.
Do nothing? They win.
Tighten security? They win.
Blow them away? They win.
The majority of the Muslim world understands ISIS is bullshit. Anyone who can be radicalized at this point can probably be swayed no matter what we do, so let's do the one thing we still do best and end these fuckers.
The guy who made these bombs is still on the loose.
It's certainly a problem that their goals & methods are so low bar, but the idea that, "Well, we just need to go all Terminator on their asses already!" is just an emotionally satisfying response that has been touted as the 'obvious' solution ever since Castille crossed swords with the Moors.
Killing jihadists and/or deciding to escalate the level of brutality against radicalized Muslims, even if somehow we want to claim that we don't care about the ethical ramifications of that kind of activity, does not work.
Long term solutions involve opening new ventures & opportunities that youth that feel isolated / disaffected / insignificant and want something greater to aspire to. Obvious things that could be on offer are interesting career paths, specialized study, role models & job opportunities in popular culture, etc. Short term solutions mostly involve reaching out to Imams & other religious leaders, who are some of the only people known to have a proven track record for steering teenagers who feel lost away from violent radicalization.
Do you know why those teenagers feel lost?
Many of the same reasons any teenager can feel lost / isolated (...and on top of that, there can be extra complications for immigrants experiencing culture shock and/or feeling left out of the greater story their new country is telling, since they may not see the surrounding culture celebrating anything they identify with).
Here is Maysa's story. Note the appeal of finding new friends, joining exclusive / secret clubs, doing something that is really special / romantic & feels like you're blazing a new trail in your life. Those can all be healthy & positive things, and I think most people can identify with at least some of them - but they can also be leveraged by gangs / cults / fundamentalists / etc to attract new recruits. That's much of the same story seen with ISIS (and other jihadist groups).
Constructive outlets that can fill the same role but with different outcomes should be our focus, IMHO (again, long term).
Both are important. People feeling disaffect is itself a problem that ought be fixed.
That said, eliminating radicalizing agents should be a component. Some people might totally independently radicalize, but it would be once in a blue moon.
+1
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GatorAn alligator in ScotlandRegistered Userregular
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
Now, you might say "but other people do X and Y" and that is racist and that does equate to the implications you have outlined. And that may well be true. However, we as a forum are composed of intelligent people who do not do these things and we can easily differentiate between "what was said here" and "what other, stupid and bad people might say".
This is the cherry on top of all the silly gooseness
since this is a forum composed of intelligent people we might as well go and spout white supremacist stuff
get rid of the n-word forum rule since we're at it
Perhaps I was wrong about the capacities of intelligent people as this is not remotely a consequence of what I said there.
as I've been trying to be a better person, I'm trying to find a positive over your attitude
and here it is
if not for this illuminating conversation I wouldn't have found this particular gem:
Posts
ISIS also wants Islam to be universally respected. They win either way.
The important questions are not "is this what ISIS wants" but "is this what we ought feel free to do, and is it a good idea?" and while the answer to the latter half of the second question might be "no" it need not be because the ISIS wants it.
I mean, they are in part motivated by eschatological prophecy that contends their caliphate will suffer a crushing defeat at the hands of the infidel in Dabiq and the survivors will rally the rest of the Muslim world to their side. Yet, if we had a chance to more or less defeat them in the city of Dabiq would the fact that this is in keeping with their goals be the remotest of reasons not to take the opportunity?
Nah, I'm good. I'll comment no further. Like I said, it's a topic that's been beaten to a pulp and won't derail.
I know that.
It doesn't explain how covering the dead members of the terrorist cell with something they would consider ritually unclean is an insult to all Muslims.
There is a huge difference between wanting Islam to be the only religion and wanting Islam to be respected.
are you asking this question for real? Really?
It's a cheap shot taken at the religious identity of the attackers, highlighting that thing above all else. A comparison might be if I chose to highlight a violent crime suspect's transgender status, as though that is what motivated their actions.
Would poop have been acceptable or funny?
Cause, actually? Here, probably a no and a no.
But it is if it is a thing only people who share their beliefs would find offensive. This makes it funny. Cause they are different.
Trump recounted a story where Muslims were shot with bullets dipped in pig's blood to desecrate their bodies.
Actually yes, I would strive at all costs to isolate them completely there, and never actually defeat them. The last thing you do when fighting religious extremists is fulfill their fucking prophecy!
IN CASE ANYONE HAS FORGOTTEN, WE DO NOT ENGAGE IN STUPID STEREOTYPING HERE BECAUSE WE ARE NOT FUCKWITS.
ANY FURTHER REMINDERS OF THIS WILL BE ACCOMPANIED BY SHARP BLOWS WITH A STICK.
THANK YOU.
Unless you are going to stipulate a transgender militia group destabilising San Francisco and a whole bunch of other geopolitical and ideological parallels this an obvious disanalogy.
Nowhere did I suggest they are equivalent.
Eh, dog / cat taboos are the most reasonable of all eating taboos, because dogs and cats are the two best bros to humans. Dogs and humans have such a special relationship that dogs actually beat primates in many ways on communication with humans. Cats are much less so, but there's a lot to be said for a good mouser in agrarian setting.
The insect taboo is much more akin, really. And it may end up being a negative reflection on one's character to keep said taboo in the future, FWIW.
I believe you missed the point entirely: that choosing to take a cheap shot at part of someone's identity (religious or otherwise) to stereotype them is a bad thing to do, regardless of whether or not you think the stereotyping is somehow justified.
I do not follow your logic or suspect we understand the word "stereotype" in radically divergent fashions.
I think that tangent has exhausted itself in this thread.
Here's what I see, no matter what we do — they win.
Do nothing? They win.
Tighten security? They win.
Blow them away? They win.
The majority of the Muslim world understands ISIS is bullshit. Anyone who can be radicalized at this point can probably be swayed no matter what we do, so let's do the one thing we still do best and end these fuckers.
The guy who made these bombs is still on the loose.
I don't know how you think it plays into any equivalence of Muslims and terrorists, hatred of Muslims in general or anything else.
The only way the logic works is if we assume everyone buys the "all Muslims are terrorists" strawman, which even the right wing nut cases that actually get airtime by and large deny!
I'm a lapsed Muslim who eats bacon all day every day and that image offended me because it is painfully ignorant, unhelpfully gleeful and reliant on the childish humor in an absolutely inappropriate time or place
I don't have to be a pious Muslim to feel like people who hoot and holler about pork being forbidden are calling Muslims savages who think pork is some kind of fucking poison or kryptonite and acts like waving it around instantly defeats backwards religious convictions
Come the fuck on. Plant your flag in another turd pile.
NNID: Hakkekage
WoW
Dear Satan.....
Anyway I'm done
NNID: Hakkekage
I think you are reading things that aren't there, and certainly do not think that you could so characterise tinwhiskers.
Consider the order of events:
The photo of the terrorists are posted.
The Ender points out that promises of at least infamy are considered one of the motivating factors for ISIS recruited or inspired terrorists
You counter that it is unlikely to be that great a factor and point out the third is still at large
The Ender suggests that we ought at least cover the dead terrorists in service of the aforesaid principle
tinwhiskers covers them in a fashion that could be considered ignominious due to it being ritually unclean, given the other suggestions that would not grant the ostensible infamy and respect The Ender was concerned with would be in violation of the NSFW rules of the forum
Now, you might say "but other people do X and Y" and that is racist and that does equate to the implications you have outlined. And that may well be true. However, we as a forum are composed of intelligent people who do not do these things and we can easily differentiate between "what was said here" and "what other, stupid and bad people might say".
As for it being humour out of place - I find it difficult to adjudicate appropriate reactions in principle so, that is something I doubt will be a productive avenue of criticism.
NB I Don't know what the South Park bear is/represents
It's certainly a problem that their goals & methods are so low bar, but the idea that, "Well, we just need to go all Terminator on their asses already!" is just an emotionally satisfying response that has been touted as the 'obvious' solution ever since Castille crossed swords with the Moors.
Killing jihadists and/or deciding to escalate the level of brutality against radicalized Muslims, even if somehow we want to claim that we don't care about the ethical ramifications of that kind of activity, does not work.
Long term solutions involve opening new ventures & opportunities that youth that feel isolated / disaffected / insignificant and want something greater to aspire to. Obvious things that could be on offer are interesting career paths, specialized study, role models & job opportunities in popular culture, etc. Short term solutions mostly involve reaching out to Imams & other religious leaders, who are some of the only people known to have a proven track record for steering teenagers who feel lost away from violent radicalization.
If that's the way you think, that's the way you think. But I really think you should have kept a discreet silence and leave this matter alone after Haks' post, if only for basic human decency and respect
I'm sure Tinwhiskers appreciates your ardent defense of his dumb attempt at a joke in order to defend a larger worldview that irreverent "criticism" of religions should be itself free of criticism or offense regardless of how many thin skinned lilies it bruises, but criticism is not what that was
Oh and when you say that pork is "ritually unclean" you sound like a honking goose give me a break you just don't eat pork when you're Muslim good god it's not like it's a fucking peanut allergy, when you want to dispel vegans from the area you don't wave full fat milk in their general direction, Muslims don't recoil from pork like vampires confronted with garlic ffs
NNID: Hakkekage
I personally also don't like the unreasonable level of reverence expected for others' supernatural beliefs. However, in the U.S. at least, mocking Christian beliefs and mocking the beliefs of other religions (like Islam) isn't exactly the same. The former group is a major influence on the populace (to the point that I, as an agnostic, am afraid to tell people I'm not a Christian) while the latter is already viewed with distrust for not believing a certain way.
Do you know why those teenagers feel lost?
I was actually under the impression that Muslims aren't supposed to eat food stored in a container with pork. I feel like I remember reading somewhere about how some companies in Malaysia (I think?) forbid non-Muslims from eating pork at work or storing it in break room refrigerators.
Like all major world religions it is regional and individual how strictly these kinds of proscriptions are taken
The strictest Muslims will not eat any meat that cannot be verifiably confirmed halal, pork or not
The loosiest goosiest Muslims will eat any and all meat aside from pork even if it was cooked in bacon grease because eating in restaurants would be fuckin impossible
NNID: Hakkekage
I am not contesting this point due to any such motivation.
I asked how it is insulting people. Not who. Not all offense is legitimate.
This is the cherry on top of all the silly gooseness
since this is a forum composed of intelligent people we might as well go and spout white supremacist stuff
get rid of the n-word forum rule since we're at it
Many of the same reasons any teenager can feel lost / isolated (...and on top of that, there can be extra complications for immigrants experiencing culture shock and/or feeling left out of the greater story their new country is telling, since they may not see the surrounding culture celebrating anything they identify with).
Here is Maysa's story. Note the appeal of finding new friends, joining exclusive / secret clubs, doing something that is really special / romantic & feels like you're blazing a new trail in your life. Those can all be healthy & positive things, and I think most people can identify with at least some of them - but they can also be leveraged by gangs / cults / fundamentalists / etc to attract new recruits. That's much of the same story seen with ISIS (and other jihadist groups).
Constructive outlets that can fill the same role but with different outcomes should be our focus, IMHO (again, long term).
Is nailing down the precise definition of what you think people are allowed to find offensive going to do any person any good at all?
Both are important. People feeling disaffect is itself a problem that ought be fixed.
That said, eliminating radicalizing agents should be a component. Some people might totally independently radicalize, but it would be once in a blue moon.
as I've been trying to be a better person, I'm trying to find a positive over your attitude
and here it is
if not for this illuminating conversation I wouldn't have found this particular gem: