I Don't Know Science Are EMFs Scary?

LoveIsUnity

As you've probably been able to glean from the title, science was the class I most frequently skipped to smoke pot. While I eventually learned a lot of math on my own (because that was the class I skipped to "take pictures for the yearbook"), I didn't so much need to do that with the science.

While I generally have a pretty good bullshit meter and can figure out what's pseudo science when I see it, I am about to buy a house and want to make sure that I'm not making a mistake.

This house is located pretty close to some power lines (close enough you can hear them hum from the driveway). Since it's the first house I am attempting to buy, I am probably in the obsessive state, and I read a bit about EMF exposure.

It seems like there's no way that they could be, right? Pretty low on the Electromagnetic spectrum? Nothing like getting constant exposure to X-rays, or gamma rays, or any of that other shit, right?

I need someone who knows stuff about science to reassure me

If you could talk to me like I'm five that would probably help.

kime

Short version: There is no strong link between high power lines and cancer, but there's also no "definitely no impact" consensus either, even though I think it's slowly heading that way.

Longer version:

It looks like there's no definitive link, but a couple studies have come close to finding a potentially small connection between nearby power lines and cancer rates.

The connection maybe gets slightly more likely, but still not definitive, for children.

Apparently, having nearby power lines has little affect on being able to sell a house in general, if that's what you're worried about, although with this type of thing keep in mind stuff may change in 20 years if the science does (or if the public's perception of EMF science does, which is actually more important for this situation).

Importantly, I'd take a look at the second URL below. It has pictures of different things you could mean when you say "power lines," and some are much more reliably "this doesn't affect anything" than others.

Lastly, if you are still cautious but really want the house, you could probably buy a Gaussmeter and actually measure the field, then compare it with the actual "potentially risky" numbers.

Sources, which include some linked studies, etc.:
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/radiation/electromagnetic-fields-fact-sheet
http://www.emfs.info/living-overhead-line/
https://hps.org/hpspublications/articles/powerlines.html

Fiendishrabbit

There have been numerous investigations into the question if powerlines have an effect on health (cancer, depression, alzheimers etc). The only sign of any possible risk has been a very weak link between living near powerlines and childhood leukemia. The link though is very weak, but several independent surveys all have this very weak link between the disease and powerlines.

Note that right now, as you're reading this your computer screen is having the exact same effect on you, exposing you to a magnetic field of about 2-5 milligauss at about 50-80hz), which is nothing compared to your cellphone or microwave (which emits not only relatively strong fields which can approach 20-30 milligauss, but also at a higher frequency).

Compare those values with this chart.


I'd start worrying if it was within 40 meters of a 500kV line (or 30 meters for a 230kV), but otherwise I wouldn't care.

DarkPrimus

There was an article in Skeptic magazine a few years ago that thoroughly and conclusively went over why radiation from cell phones don't cause cancer. The worries about power lines fall under the same thing, since cell phones also produce electromagnetic radiation.

While the more thorough and technical article is only available in print or the eMag version of the magazine issue, there is a decent companion piece available for free online that goes over the evidence in simpler terms.

dispatch.o

I want to find it again, but there was a study / article regarding headaches and power lines. It turned out the buzz noise that they make can trigger headaches the way any persistent noise can and in some people cause migraines, but that's from transformers / capacitors humming. Which is something I'd be more concerned about if you're prone to that sort of thing and legitimately close enough to hear it.

Headaches and maintenance crew traffic are what would bug me about high voltage lines or being near a substation. Not so much the other stuff.

Edit: It should be noted some people experience headaches when exposed to the country side and cicada noises too... because people get irritated by those sorts of noises.

kime

dispatch.o wrote: »

I want to find it again, but there was a study / article regarding headaches and power lines. It turned out the buzz noise that they make can trigger headaches the way any persistent noise can and in some people cause migraines, but that's from transformers / capacitors humming. Which is something I'd be more concerned about if you're prone to that sort of thing and legitimately close enough to hear it.

Headaches and maintenance crew traffic are what would bug me about high voltage lines or being near a substation. Not so much the other stuff.

Edit: It should be noted some people experience headaches when exposed to the country side and cicada noises too... because people get irritated by those sorts of noises.

Oh huh I hadn't even thought of that

dispatch.o

kime wrote: »

dispatch.o wrote: »

I want to find it again, but there was a study / article regarding headaches and power lines. It turned out the buzz noise that they make can trigger headaches the way any persistent noise can and in some people cause migraines, but that's from transformers / capacitors humming. Which is something I'd be more concerned about if you're prone to that sort of thing and legitimately close enough to hear it.

Headaches and maintenance crew traffic are what would bug me about high voltage lines or being near a substation. Not so much the other stuff.

Edit: It should be noted some people experience headaches when exposed to the country side and cicada noises too... because people get irritated by those sorts of noises.

Oh huh I hadn't even thought of that

It really depends on the person. I've only been in one apartment complex that was near a sub station. While I couldn't normally hear it, if I walked to the store I'd pass right along side it for about 300 yards. It was also the staging area for big scale utility projects and emergency vehicles.

Still wasn't a big deal unless there was a power outage and the crews were all over there. The buzz sound only went a quarter mile or so. Unless it was about to storm the actual lines didn't make much noise at all.

Grunt's Ghosts

dispatch.o wrote: »

I want to find it again, but there was a study / article regarding headaches and power lines. It turned out the buzz noise that they make can trigger headaches the way any persistent noise can and in some people cause migraines, but that's from transformers / capacitors humming. Which is something I'd be more concerned about if you're prone to that sort of thing and legitimately close enough to hear it.

Headaches and maintenance crew traffic are what would bug me about high voltage lines or being near a substation. Not so much the other stuff.

Edit: It should be noted some people experience headaches when exposed to the country side and cicada noises too... because people get irritated by those sorts of noises.

I can confirm that to be a thing. When I lived outside of Boston, there are were transformers across the street* that you could hear hum from anywhere in the house. I didn't think much of it and really, after a few hours it became just another noise I didn't noticed. However, I started to have bad migraines about a week or so later and it was pretty much every weekend (when I spent the most time at home). I when to a doctor and that was what he said could have caused it. I get similar migraines from the buzz of fluorescent lights. I had to wait almost a year before I could move but once I could, I did and I pick where I live with those things in mind.


*Kinda like this but not quite... but this was the closest thing I could find on Google Search

mts

Dunno about health but it can definitely affect resale which is key.

kime

mts wrote: »

Dunno about health but it can definitely affect resale which is key.

Yeah, one of the links I found said houses near power lines tended to sell fine, but I don't think that statement was backed with studies there, so dunno how true it is

Hevach

Something to consider with connections between disease and some other thing: Poverty is a contributing factor to *everything* due to its association with all kinds of things that act as direct health degraders. Things like poor diet, overworking, stress, sleep deprivation, poor insurance, lack of preventive care, etc, etc, etc. They don't build $350k mcmansions under power lines. It's very likely anyone living near them already has some major risk factors on their plate.

mts

kime wrote: »

mts wrote: »

Dunno about health but it can definitely affect resale which is key.

Yeah, one of the links I found said houses near power lines tended to sell fine, but I don't think that statement was backed with studies there, so dunno how true it is

Well it depends on the type of lines and how close, but it for sure affects sales.

JebusUD

mts wrote: »

kime wrote: »

mts wrote: »

Dunno about health but it can definitely affect resale which is key.

Yeah, one of the links I found said houses near power lines tended to sell fine, but I don't think that statement was backed with studies there, so dunno how true it is

Well it depends on the type of lines and how close, but it for sure affects sales.

If they are the large metal pylons there are restrictions on what you can build under them. Like sometimes you can't build a deck or a shed.

BillyIdle

As scary as any other band with a hit song from the early 90's.

LoveIsUnity

So, I see websites and people like this, and I get scared: http://www.createhealthyhomes.com/index.php

I read the articles that everyone posted, and I feel pretty safe with the whole "too low in the electromagnetic spectrum to do anything bad to humans" explanation, but, well, I suck at science. Are people like this just preying off of fear of the unknown? (Well, unknown by people like me haha.)

Fiendishrabbit

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

So, I see websites and people like this, and I get scared: http://www.createhealthyhomes.com/index.php

Lets see here. Questionable sources*, mistaken cause&effect** and straight up profiteering from his fearmongering.
It's safe to say that sites like those are not scientific. Any site that says "my research" and "I have the this surefire solution which you can acquire by joining my cult or paying X amount of dollars" should be avoided like the plague.

*such as "Dirty Electricity: Electrification and the diseases of civilization", a book which straight up contradicts all major health surveys.
** Yes. Some types of lighting can cause migraines etc. However, that's not because "dirty electricity emits a poorly understood and dangerous magnetic field", it's because humans are really sensitive to light; flickering light or light that's not quite in tune with the natural spectrum can cause migraines, reduce the efficency of the immune system etc.

Darkewolfe

Fiendishrabbit wrote: »

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

So, I see websites and people like this, and I get scared: http://www.createhealthyhomes.com/index.php

Lets see here. Questionable sources*, mistaken cause&effect** and straight up profiteering from his fearmongering.
It's safe to say that sites like those are not scientific. Any site that says "my research" and "I have the this surefire solution which you can acquire by joining my cult or paying X amount of dollars" should be avoided like the plague.

*such as "Dirty Electricity: Electrification and the diseases of civilization", a book which straight up contradicts all major health surveys.
** Yes. Some types of lighting can cause migraines etc. However, that's not because "dirty electricity emits a poorly understood and dangerous magnetic field", it's because humans are really sensitive to light; flickering light or light that's not quite in tune with the natural spectrum can cause migraines, reduce the efficency of the immune system etc.

Makes me think of:

https://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215193642_PJRZr/0/2100x20000/215193642_PJRZr-2100x20000.jpg

bowen

The key to this kind of stuff is ionizing and nonionizing radiation.

You see the same kind of shit posted about microwaves and cell phones, but nonionizing radiation cannot really do harm to you because it doesn't have enough energy to impart impact into your body.



from : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation

LoveIsUnity

You all are good people. Thank you.

Fiendishrabbit

bowen wrote: »

The key to this kind of stuff is ionizing and nonionizing radiation.

You see the same kind of shit posted about microwaves and cell phones, but nonionizing radiation cannot really do harm to you because it doesn't have enough energy to impart impact into your body.



from : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation

Except they probably can? From the very same article.
IARC classifies radiofrequency electromagnetic fields as possibly carcinogenic
Long-term anything that deposits energy into your body (which obviously radiofrequency and microwave energy can) should not be discounted. This applies to microwaves, radio and infrared radiation. Infrared radiation though is only dangerous to the eyes in large doses, because the human body is very adapt at shielding itself from infrared.

LoveIsUnity

But is it safe to say that the stuff farther to the left on the graph like power lines probably aren't? That link is about the effects of cell phones and radio waves.

bowen

That PDF says it hasn't been quantitated yet. It's also by the WHO, not exactly something I'd trust as a certifiable source on the validity of the claims.

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/athome/cellular-phones

The answer is probably no. No one really knows. But if that's the case being outside is going to be more problematic than being near a cell phone. And so is breathing oxygen.

You should absolutely reduce your risk when reasonable, but lining your house in tin foil or worrying about power lines is a bit silly.

bowen

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

But is it safe to say that the stuff farther to the left on the graph like power lines probably aren't? That link is about the effects of cell phones and radio waves.

Yeah that's generally how it works.

The thermal stuff "cooks" stuff. Non thermal is far too low energy to even put that much heat into a system even with uninterrupted long term exposure.

Once you move into ultraviolet the radiation has enough energy to break electrons out of their orbits and all that fun stuff. Which causes DNA damage and all that. This is why you wear sunblock, UVA and UVB are there.

Auralynx

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

But is it safe to say that the stuff farther to the left on the graph like power lines probably aren't? That link is about the effects of cell phones and radio waves.

Speaking as a guy who works on radios all day:

The key is how much and how often with most of the radiation you're coming up against day-to-day. People get skin cancer, but it's mostly people who spend way too much time in the sun; same applies here.

Probability of there being a problem is also relevant.

You might be the one-in-a-whatever person who ends up with cancer, but the odds as far as we can measure them are strongly in your favor if you're actually following safe exposure guidelines. You also might get hit by lightning if you stand under a tree in the rain; you're probably not gonna.

We can't tell you you're 100% guaranteed for-sure safe and you'll never have any issues with ambient noise or weird infrasound effects if for some reason those lines are set up oddly, but the odds strongly favor that you'll be reasonably happy and healthy.

Amaryl

Most people here already explained that its fairly safe - the only question I'd ask you is this: you hear the humming from the driveway - does that annoy the hell out of you or not? Because if it would drive you mad - that's good enough to pass on this house and keep looking. I know it would annoy me to shreds.

Enc

If something worries you when you buy the house, it will worry you when you own the house forevermore. Find a place you don't have any major concerns about that you can't rectify.

bowen

Yeah, houses with power lines are super hard to offload unless they're beautiful too.

LoveIsUnity

Enc wrote: »

If something worries you when you buy the house, it will worry you when you own the house forevermore. Find a place you don't have any major concerns about that you can't rectify.

Well, obviously. I just didn't really know enough to know if it was even worth the concern, hence my post asking for advice from people who know more science than me.

bowen wrote: »

Yeah, houses with power lines are super hard to offload unless they're beautiful too.

It is. And it's in an area where paying just shy of a million for a comparable house is common, so I'm not too concerned about resale.