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[The Good Place] Season Four Is the Final Season

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Posts

  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Its intersting to note Vonneguts version of heaven is everyone gets in but like they form discussion groups about how they died or who caused it so guys like Hitler are constantly reminded of what they did but nobody is malicous about it because they're dead and dont care

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    Lord PalingtonZilla360
  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    I feel like the only way an ending works is
    they cop out and make it so the whole thing is a waystation fantasy 'its all a dream' thing for elenor specifically to overcome challenges of being a better person.

    I dont see how they can upend the bad place. The bad place does seem to not want to torture good people, they just think the system is working and everything is fine, and that humans are just all garbage cans. Even if the scales get rebalanced, they would have to then test everyone in the bad place, and you are still left with what others described: the conundrum of punishing people forever for finite faults. Does the bad place become a system designed by michael where everyone is then tested to see ifthey can be better, and dont move on until they learn their lesson? And if so isnt that basically what Eleanor is going through already?

    I get the feeling the gut punch is going to be that Elenor is going to have to give up chidi forever in some fashion as part of her learning to move on as a better person. I'm not sure though, because I think if that were going to be a thing, we would have seen more moments of her breaking down over whats going on with him.

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  • PiotyrPiotyr Registered User regular
    I feel like the only way an ending works is
    they cop out and make it so the whole thing is a waystation fantasy 'its all a dream' thing for elenor specifically to overcome challenges of being a better person.

    I dont see how they can upend the bad place. The bad place does seem to not want to torture good people, they just think the system is working and everything is fine, and that humans are just all garbage cans. Even if the scales get rebalanced, they would have to then test everyone in the bad place, and you are still left with what others described: the conundrum of punishing people forever for finite faults. Does the bad place become a system designed by michael where everyone is then tested to see ifthey can be better, and dont move on until they learn their lesson? And if so isnt that basically what Eleanor is going through already?

    I get the feeling the gut punch is going to be that Elenor is going to have to give up chidi forever in some fashion as part of her learning to move on as a better person. I'm not sure though, because I think if that were going to be a thing, we would have seen more moments of her breaking down over whats going on with him.

    Disagree completely, that's a hopelessly cynical take on a show that has never been such.

    MarathonMatevBurnageZilla360King RiptorLegacytynicAlbino BunnyBucketmanCouscousShadowhopeThorn413ObiFettCantidedestroyah87
  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    Piotyr wrote: »
    I feel like the only way an ending works is
    they cop out and make it so the whole thing is a waystation fantasy 'its all a dream' thing for elenor specifically to overcome challenges of being a better person.

    I dont see how they can upend the bad place. The bad place does seem to not want to torture good people, they just think the system is working and everything is fine, and that humans are just all garbage cans. Even if the scales get rebalanced, they would have to then test everyone in the bad place, and you are still left with what others described: the conundrum of punishing people forever for finite faults. Does the bad place become a system designed by michael where everyone is then tested to see ifthey can be better, and dont move on until they learn their lesson? And if so isnt that basically what Eleanor is going through already?

    I get the feeling the gut punch is going to be that Elenor is going to have to give up chidi forever in some fashion as part of her learning to move on as a better person. I'm not sure though, because I think if that were going to be a thing, we would have seen more moments of her breaking down over whats going on with him.

    Disagree completely, that's a hopelessly cynical take on a show that has never been such.

    My amended guess now:
    The experiment "fails" in the sense that not everyone improves (Brent for example doesn't appear to be really improving all that much, or even wanting to improve, which I think is the key thing).. But, the work that they're doing is enough to reform the bad place to be a place for improvement, not just endless punishment.

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    Zilla360SpoitRomantic UndeadBucketmanJragghen
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    I mean yeah that's probably exactly what's gonna happen to the bad place. It becomes the way we teach people how to be good. I think the big twist if any is gonna be that these folks aren't actually the first people they've done this with. That this is just how things work. And that this similar journey into reforming the bad place is all part of the process. Just a giant set of plays within plays.

  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    I mean yeah that's probably exactly what's gonna happen to the bad place. It becomes the way we teach people how to be good. I think the big twist if any is gonna be that these folks aren't actually the first people they've done this with. That this is just how things work. And that this similar journey into reforming the bad place is all part of the process. Just a giant set of plays within plays.

    It's a pleasing thought, but
    the show would have to come down hard on the opposite side from Kant, if that were the case

    A tall order!

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    I mean yeah that's probably exactly what's gonna happen to the bad place. It becomes the way we teach people how to be good. I think the big twist if any is gonna be that these folks aren't actually the first people they've done this with. That this is just how things work. And that this similar journey into reforming the bad place is all part of the process. Just a giant set of plays within plays.

    Jeremy Bearimy, baby.

    SleepPailryderZilla360chrono_travellerZonugalBucketmanMegaMan001
  • CoinageCoinage The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter Registered User regular
    Yeah Employee of the Bearimy cost too much money lol

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    Zilla360
  • PiotyrPiotyr Registered User regular
    A few bits I found funny from the podcast that didn't make it into the episode:

    - Apparently it's canon that Jason doesn't know what a farm is, but it never makes it into an episode.
    - There was a line that was cut when Chidi and John were discussing philosophy where Chidi was reciting Kant, and John replied "Well, Bethenny Frankel is my Kant". Determined too racy for network TV.

    Hahnsoo1Zilla360
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny. Quick google search of Bethany Frankel didn't make it clearer.

  • SneaksSneaks Registered User regular
    edited November 7
    MorganV wrote: »
    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny.
    I don't think it's a joke so much as another reminder of just how much John sucks.

    That said, I really liked "A Chip Driver Mystery." It might be one of my favorite episodes of the season. Leaning on Michael as a framing device for the six month time jump was an unsurprisingly strong play, but what I didn't expect was to enjoy the development of Bad Janet as an actual true believer in the vein of Shawn. I mean, she's always performed her duties with enthusiasm, but that's just being a Janet. Hearing D'Arcy Carden actually engage with Michael on humanity (though of course she remaining largely unmoved) gave us some strong performances from both of them.

    And to be honest, "Employee of the Bearimy" came pretty close to exceeding my tolerance for farcical plotting. It's a core element of the show, and I frequently like it, but I was really ready to just listen to these characters talk to each other for awhile about their situation instead of running around exploding each other.

    While Brent obviously still sucks, I do think there was a path forward for him hinted at in his defense of his… let's call it "Lee Child-esque but even worse" debut novel. "I accomplished something!" For all his bullshit about earning everything he has (undercutting it in the same sentence by pointing out that he's a whatever-generation legacy at Princeton), that line implies—to me at least—that on some level, he knows he's never actually accomplished anything before.

    This is not to say that Brent can turn into even a half-decent person within the six months left on the experiment, and I don't think I'd buy it if the show tried to sell it to me. But we may get to the point where he's capable of learning and internalizing something meaningful, and I think that'll be a factor in our endgame.

    Sneaks on
    chrono_travellerCelestialBadgerTofystedethPailryder
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny. Quick google search of Bethany Frankel didn't make it clearer.

    It's just rude wordplay, it doesn't really matter who Bethany Frankel is.

    King RiptorBurnageZilla360Rhesus PositiveSorceMatev
  • minor incidentminor incident Helen Keller to the bullshit Registered User regular
    The writers 100% have a whiteboard labeled "words that sound dirty when you say them really fast in the wrong context".

    That's like the foundation of the show.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny. Quick google search of Bethany Frankel didn't make it clearer.

    They are substituting the word "Kant" for 'cunt'.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    Zonugal
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny. Quick google search of Bethany Frankel didn't make it clearer.

    They are substituting the word "Kant" for 'cunt'.

    Yeah, I figured that part out. My lack of knowledge was why that woman in particular drew that ire. Up until people brought that name up in thread, I don't recall ever hearing it. A google search to see who it was showed a face I didn't recognize, and a filmography I haven't seen.

    So I don't know why she, in particular, would be the target of that profanity.

  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny. Quick google search of Bethany Frankel didn't make it clearer.

    They are substituting the word "Kant" for 'cunt'.

    Yeah, I figured that part out. My lack of knowledge was why that woman in particular drew that ire. Up until people brought that name up in thread, I don't recall ever hearing it. A google search to see who it was showed a face I didn't recognize, and a filmography I haven't seen.

    So I don't know why she, in particular, would be the target of that profanity.

    You know, I thought the same thing when I listened to the podcast. She seems about as harmless as anyone who goes to make reality TV and she also did a lot of good for Puerto Rico flying in supplies.

    Seems like a weird jab to take at the woman.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    MorganV
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    The writers 100% have a whiteboard labeled "words that sound dirty when you say them really fast in the wrong context".

    That's like the foundation of the show.

    I believe a joke that got cut in season two was when Eleanor says “soak my deck”.

    Zilla360
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    edited November 7
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    The line was well " my favorite Kant Bethany Frankel " which is far more obvious

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny. Quick google search of Bethany Frankel didn't make it clearer.

    They are substituting the word "Kant" for 'cunt'.

    Yeah, I figured that part out. My lack of knowledge was why that woman in particular drew that ire. Up until people brought that name up in thread, I don't recall ever hearing it. A google search to see who it was showed a face I didn't recognize, and a filmography I haven't seen.

    So I don't know why she, in particular, would be the target of that profanity.

    You know, I thought the same thing when I listened to the podcast. She seems about as harmless as anyone who goes to make reality TV and she also did a lot of good for Puerto Rico flying in supplies.

    Seems like a weird jab to take at the woman.

    To my reading, it doesn't sound like a jab at her from the writers. It sounds like the kind of catty, insensitive thing a gossip blogger would say.

    WACriminal on
    AldoKing RiptorBurnage
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Yeah he was just being far to clever for his own good.

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  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Sneaks wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    I mean, I think I get what the joke IS, but I'm not getting why the joke is funny.
    I don't think it's a joke so much as another reminder of just how much John sucks.

    That said, I really liked "A Chip Driver Mystery." It might be one of my favorite episodes of the season. Leaning on Michael as a framing device for the six month time jump was an unsurprisingly strong play, but what I didn't expect was to enjoy the development of Bad Janet as an actual true believer in the vein of Shawn. I mean, she's always performed her duties with enthusiasm, but that's just being a Janet. Hearing D'Arcy Carden actually engage with Michael on humanity (though of course she remaining largely unmoved) gave us some strong performances from both of them.

    And to be honest, "Employee of the Bearimy" came pretty close to exceeding my tolerance for farcical plotting. It's a core element of the show, and I frequently like it, but I was really ready to just listen to these characters talk to each other for awhile about their situation instead of running around exploding each other.

    While Brent obviously still sucks, I do think there was a path forward for him hinted at in his defense of his… let's call it "Lee Child-esque but even worse" debut novel. "I accomplished something!" For all his bullshit about earning everything he has (undercutting it in the same sentence by pointing out that he's a whatever-generation legacy at Princeton), that line implies—to me at least—that on some level, he knows he's never actually accomplished anything before.

    This is not to say that Brent can turn into even a half-decent person within the six months left on the experiment, and I don't think I'd buy it if the show tried to sell it to me. But we may get to the point where he's capable of learning and internalizing something meaningful, and I think that'll be a factor in our endgame.

    IIRC the rules of the experiment only say that the new humans have to improve. It doesn't say how much. If Brent earns more overall points in this year than he did in any given year while he was alive, I would argue that's enough.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I watched the episode with my husband and he made an interesting point: The original crew improved because the Good Place was set up to torture them while apparently giving them whatever they wanted. Brent's not getting that. They are just pleading with him to get better.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I'm not sure why I thought this but I do remember during the episode that I thought they were finally getting somewhere with Brent this episode.

  • PiotyrPiotyr Registered User regular
    I'm not sure why I thought this but I do remember during the episode that I thought they were finally getting somewhere with Brent this episode.

    He admitted to shanking a golf shot to Michael. It's a huge step.

    chrono_travellerTofystedeth
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Brent is also only improving because he thinks that there's a Better Place, though, so won't that be an issue with motivation?

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    The main progress Brent made is that he actually sat down and did something that took effort - wrote a book. The book sucked but no more than any random person's hopeless novel.

    One thing they could have done is have that gossip columnist guy, John, write a scathing review. That might have helped both of them. John would have seen that Brent was devastated, and Brent would been able to express that he finally did something for himself that wasn't just what his father thought he should do (he clearly has big daddy issues) and it sucked.

  • PiotyrPiotyr Registered User regular
    Well, that escalated quickly.
    Didn't expect the experiment to be over with 5 episodes left. Having Simone figure everything out was interesting, and now we wait and see if Brent actually did something good.

    destroyah87
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Kristen Bell was on fire this episode. The body language change when it was suggested Jason was a demon, which was a valid consideration, was amazing.

    "They see what they see, man."

    Tofystedeth
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Jason is too perceptive to not be some kind of final twist on who he really is - like God or something. And/or he’s just Jason. Definitely one of those two things or something else entirely.

    HeirKing RiptorMatevMcFodderdestroyah87
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Bad Opinion Haver Registered User regular
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting

    Heirdestroyah87
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Here we are. Back to setting fire to the premise of the show every few episodes.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    MorganVcloudeagleMatevZonugalZilla360destroyah87
  • JeedanJeedan Registered User regular
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Rhesus PositiveHeirWACriminal
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Nah
    I think it finally hit him how shitty hes been. He was legitimately freaking out

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Nah
    I think it finally hit him how shitty hes been. He was legitimately freaking out

    Yeah.
    His body language and affect was completely wrong for a brush off. That is deniable if they really wanted to just play with us but in general the Good Place doesn't do stuff like that.

  • SorceSorce Registered User regular
    I kind of want a Tuxedo in a can.

    Which is probably the only thing I can say about the episode without needing to tag it.

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  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    About the last episode:
    I think Tahani might have actually been on to something with Jason. Even if they were football related, no way does Jason come up with two situationally appropriate metaphors back-to-back. I think he's been abducted and replaced with the accountant wearing a skinsuit. :wink:

    I thought the episode ended in a good place, but took a little while to get rolling. The whole Dr. Presto thing just felt a bit ... off? A couple liners were good, but just didn't seem to fit all that well.

    Really excited to see whats next now that we're in the end game.

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett

    George R. R. Martin is not your bitch. ~ Neil Gaiman
  • JeedanJeedan Registered User regular
    edited November 8
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Nah
    I think it finally hit him how shitty hes been. He was legitimately freaking out

    Thats not what I'm saying though.

    In the context that this is generally a show that assumes that humans can grow and change then yes, he was about to say "I'm sorry"

    In the context of the show that this is a case being built for or against humanity the phrase "I'm sor..." wouldn't hold up as any kind of evidence in afterlife court against a demon lawyer.

    Jeedan on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    That scene at the end
    where they mirror the season 1 reveal

    It really made me wonder if this whole thing is just an inner layer of a larger setup, as someone suggested before. The only way to really make people better is to get them to help others, so the original cast are still the ones redeeming themselves with this work, which will be passed on to the new four when they're ready, unbeknownst to them. And so on, and so on (maybe the demons are just previous folks in the cycle).

    I don't think that's the direction they'll take, because it's such a "it was all a dream" kind of twist, but the idea that the Bad Place is just a crucible they use to improve people by making them think they need to fix it is pretty cute.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
    DrezBurnagechrono_travellerchromdomSleepSchrodingerMatevMcFodderdestroyah87
  • SorceSorce Registered User regular
    Jason in the last episode
    I think this season is the one where he actually gets some change, because he's kind of been riding everyone's coattails in this whole thing. So him coming up with those explanations makes sense, especially since they're relating to a thing he knows about (football), and he's always been kind of smart about stuff, even when he's really dumb.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Sorce wrote: »
    Jason in the last episode
    I think this season is the one where he actually gets some change, because he's kind of been riding everyone's coattails in this whole thing. So him coming up with those explanations makes sense, especially since they're relating to a thing he knows about (football), and he's always been kind of smart about stuff, even when he's really dumb.

    Jason Mendoza:

    High Wis, Low Int
    also last episode he was given back like hundreds of years of experiences that Michael had never filled in for him.

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