If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
First: I'm pretty sure that's not true if you're not actually registered.
Second: there are a billion things that can go wrong with provisional ballots, not least of which is that our poll workers are often poorly trained.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
First: I'm pretty sure that's not true if you're not actually registered.
Second: there are a billion things that can go wrong with provisional ballots, not least of which is that our poll workers are often poorly trained.
Or they're biased so they won't help the minority that just got angry and loud because they weren't registered when they should have been.
Trust-government-committees-to-decide-your-vote-counts-Conservatism is a novel one. But if you don't think paperwork negatively effects access I congratulate you on making it to middle age without having to deal with an insurance company.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
First: I'm pretty sure that's not true if you're not actually registered.
Second: there are a billion things that can go wrong with provisional ballots, not least of which is that our poll workers are often poorly trained.
Or they're biased so they won't help the minority that just got angry and loud because they weren't registered when they should have been.
Well, obviously. But even if they're not actually biased, they're still fairly likely to fuck it up.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I guess I don't see "fill out this form again plz" as a barrier. Certainly not as a plot to destroy the Democratic voting base.
Either way, I think the assessment of the case itself is correct - it follows the law, Ohio legislature needs to fix it.
I haven't actually read the SCOTUS thread recently so I don't know if you were dog piled from this, which I absolutely don't meant o do if you were spool, but I'd like to address this because the more understanding we all have the better off we all will be.
It's not "fill out this form again plz" that is the barrier. The barrier is "I don't have the documents required to fill out the form right now because I didn't expect to fill out this form." That barrier will lead people to believe they are not able to vote, and due to unconscious (or worse, conscious) biases of the poll workers minority voters will be less likely to have this belief corrected before they leave the polling station, so they end up not voting. That barrier will lead to people filling out a provisional ballot, who will then have to work every moment that the court house is open because employers have to let you off to vote but not when it's just going to prove your right to vote after voting day, and minorities are more likely to be in one of those working situations leading to their vote not counting. That barrier will make people have to decide if they're vote is worth a 2 hour bus trip one way or the price of a cab they can't really afford, which tends to be a dilemma more for minorities than whites.
You crunch the numbers and it all leads to minorities either not voting or having their votes not counted more often than white people which statistically means democrats receive less votes than republicans. It's splitting really fine hairs, but those lost votes add up and can mean the difference meant a fucking lot to Virginia last year.
I agree with a lot of this and certainly if its harder than "show your ID" to file a provisional ballot and requires something other than an online follow-up, that's going to be a problem for some people.
Certainly there are more poor white people in this country than there are poor blacks, so I can't agree with barriers based on time or lack of documentation due to poverty being a stand-in for disproportional minority impact. It probably does stand in for disproportional impact on Democrats, which is less bad but still ought to be smoothed over where possible.
We do still need to have people vote where they live, and occasionally they will have to prove that fact. In the Ohio case, we're talking not about people who are registering for the first time though, but people who already registered once but vote once per decade, or less frequently, and have as a result fallen off the rolls.
Some kind of system for purging the rolls needs to exist! I'm all for coming up with something that doesn't screw legitimate voters but there's going to be a paperwork hurdle to fix the mistakes and I don't see how you get around that.
In the Ohio case, we're talking not about people who are registering for the first time though, but people who already registered once but vote once per decade, or less frequently, and have as a result fallen off the rolls.
To reiterate, this is expressly forbidden by law.
+2
Options
HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Tbloxham is waving the panic flag and declaring that only a capital-p Purge can restore American Democracy. Dozens of postcards to every house! Disenfranchisement! Cats and dogs living together... mass hysteria!
Or, you can vote in one election out of every 4 and never worry. Or, you can just go here: https://olvr.sos.state.oh.us/ and register online. I don't even see what there is to fix legislatively. Of course you need to occasionally purge voter rolls, for lots of reasons:
- voter rolls full of garbage data are useless for other tasks like redistricting
- interstate agreements require cleanup
- databases become unwieldy if literally everyone who has ever existed is on the roll everywhere they ever have
This panic is perhaps overblown. Voter registration is trivial and doable from a library, in Ohio and Texas at least (the only ones I checked). This is not a edisenfranchisement so much as it's a reflection of reality - if you haven't voted in 8 years, you're certainly a citizen but you're not a voter. If you want to be a voter again, take 20 minutes online some evening and become one.
Now, I say with with the full understanding that gathering the documentation needed to prove you're a citizen and a resident can be challenging, and should be made easier, but we're talking about people who already did that part. So come on everyone, let's not predict the death of the republic over needing to fill out a form after 8 consecutive years of neglecting your civic duty.
The issue is there is no reason to make it harder for citizenry to vote, this does nothing but disenfranchise voters which is the current election strategy of a major party of the US backed by these very courts.
I guess I don't see "fill out this form again plz" as a barrier. Certainly not as a plot to destroy the Democratic voting base.
Either way, I think the assessment of the case itself is correct - it follows the law, Ohio legislature needs to fix it.
Wether you "see" it or not it very clearly is.
idk! Maybe this is a place where I'm being myopic. I feel like it's definitely true that if voting one time in eight years was too big an ask, filling out a form first is probably not going to be the thing that stops you from showing up in year 10. But maybe I'm missing some context here and lots of voters are being screwed out of their once-in-a-decade plan to vote in an election because they didn't do it at all in the eight previous years.
I'm trying not to be super snarky here but honestly I am just not seeing the monstrous nature of this. Just how many Democrats didn't show up to the polls a single time since 2006, but really wanted to vote Hillary in 2016?
FWIW, despite voting in every single primary and election since like 2006, I was purged from the CA voter rolls in 2016, and would have had to cast a provisional ballot if it weren't for someone else in these threads posting a warning about it a few weeks before the primary. What's weird is that the other, less regular voters, in my household weren't purged (though they're registered as independents)
That certainly runs counter to the "Republicans are doing this in red states to remove their political opposition" narrative, considering the makeup of the CA legislature.
Only if you assume that all purges are either well run and intentioned or that they're all bad faith suppression efforts.
Ohio's legislative efforts have no bearing ok California being California.
I thought the position from the other thread was that all purges are disenfranchisement and therefore bad, also probably nefarious.
My opinion is that having your ID database looking like a genealogy poster proving you're Charlemagne's ancestor is a bad thing from an IT perspective. Some cleanup and data validation is necessary from time to time. How we approach that process ought to be one that inconveniences voters as little as possible.
You are being absurd, spool
Some purges are intentional disenfranchisement. Some purges are routine data cleaning with human error thrown in. The Ohio case is only the latter if you turn your head 180 degrees and insist that an obvious technical attempt to just barely skirt the the law, with some awfully convenient results concerning the demographics of those most likely to be negatively affected by the method of the purge, is a perfectly above board way to administer the most foundational right of an ordinary American citizen to select their government.
The policy argument for the necessity of this 'inconvenience' is weak. There is unlikely to be anything necessary for appropriate voter registration that requires the notification of lapsed voter activity to be a snail mail postcard that has to be mailed back in the decade of the internet. If there is an IT need for updated data, a physical card that needs to be filled out--handwritten!!--being the way to transmit validated and updated data is a laughable way to achieve that end.
This does not even touch on the fact that the government's interest in maintaining clean voter rolls, when weighed against the potential disenfranchisement of individual citizens, barely tips the scale in its favor. If the government wants a clean spreadsheet, it has many other ways to verify data that does not result in the elevated likelihood that eligible voters (of any demographic or party, let's sweetly pretend) will be dumped in the process. Pass a state law allowing the state motor vehicle commission, state tax authority, state health commission, state medicaid agency, etc. to share limited and updated data for individuals to verify that they are still living, still domiciled, and still bloody registered to vote. Whether or not an individual reliably exercises the franchise is not the only method by which the government can gain an understanding of whether that person is still an eligible, and therefore enfranchised, citizen.
Whether or not it is an inconvenience or a proper burden, it has a deleterious effect on how many eligible people can and will vote in the real world, in a way that is tenuously connected to its stated policy objective, that does not rise to the level of outweighing the right to vote. It's either a pointless exercise or a pointedly bad faith exercise. There's no innocent nonpartisan IT department But The Data Demands reason that can be plausibly claimed unless, of course, you're Alito, and this is what god put you on earth to do
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
What should this person list as his or her home address?
It is recommended homeless registrants list a shelter address as their voting address where they could receive mail. Alternatively, homeless registrants may denote a street corner or a park as their residence, in lieu of a traditional home address. The federal voter registration form and many state forms provide a space for this purpose.
This would be my primary argument against the address-verification purge loophole.
While provisional ballots are technically the safety net here, assuming that system is properly enforced; though I fear it is often not.
But speaking of possibly baseless fears wrt voting: are there numbers to support my fear on this? As opposed to the GOP fears of illegal voting.
I guess I don't see "fill out this form again plz" as a barrier. Certainly not as a plot to destroy the Democratic voting base.
Either way, I think the assessment of the case itself is correct - it follows the law, Ohio legislature needs to fix it.
I haven't actually read the SCOTUS thread recently so I don't know if you were dog piled from this, which I absolutely don't meant o do if you were spool, but I'd like to address this because the more understanding we all have the better off we all will be.
It's not "fill out this form again plz" that is the barrier. The barrier is "I don't have the documents required to fill out the form right now because I didn't expect to fill out this form." That barrier will lead people to believe they are not able to vote, and due to unconscious (or worse, conscious) biases of the poll workers minority voters will be less likely to have this belief corrected before they leave the polling station, so they end up not voting. That barrier will lead to people filling out a provisional ballot, who will then have to work every moment that the court house is open because employers have to let you off to vote but not when it's just going to prove your right to vote after voting day, and minorities are more likely to be in one of those working situations leading to their vote not counting. That barrier will make people have to decide if they're vote is worth a 2 hour bus trip one way or the price of a cab they can't really afford, which tends to be a dilemma more for minorities than whites.
You crunch the numbers and it all leads to minorities either not voting or having their votes not counted more often than white people which statistically means democrats receive less votes than republicans. It's splitting really fine hairs, but those lost votes add up and can mean the difference meant a fucking lot to Virginia last year.
I agree with a lot of this and certainly if its harder than "show your ID" to file a provisional ballot and requires something other than an online follow-up, that's going to be a problem for some people.
Certainly there are more poor white people in this country than there are poor blacks, so I can't agree with barriers based on time or lack of documentation due to poverty being a stand-in for disproportional minority impact. It probably does stand in for disproportional impact on Democrats, which is less bad but still ought to be smoothed over where possible.
We do still need to have people vote where they live, and occasionally they will have to prove that fact. In the Ohio case, we're talking not about people who are registering for the first time though, but people who already registered once but vote once per decade, or less frequently, and have as a result fallen off the rolls.
Some kind of system for purging the rolls needs to exist! I'm all for coming up with something that doesn't screw legitimate voters but there's going to be a paperwork hurdle to fix the mistakes and I don't see how you get around that.
This was literally one of the points of the NVRA, to help states clean up the registration process. It's a pretty short statute and is pretty clear in its purposes. And it did a good job.
Unfortunately, it's politically inconvenient for the party of white supremacy, so it's got to go, just like pre-clearance had to go.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
+9
Options
BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
There are a lot of homeless and or poor people who do not have a licence. People who have the mental stability to vote can hopefully remember their social, and so in this specific instance it should be ok. But its not nesc going to be ok in every system.
Part of the issue is that each individual part is not itself an insurmountable issue. Its the collection of rules applied together that make the system discriminatory.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
Its fine, just take an extra day off, travel to a place, and show us documentation that you definitely have. No real burden at all.
Just gotta run your vote by the totally not partisan and why are you asking Board of Elections first.
You seriously expect us to believe that system is trustworthy and reliable?
Even if administered properly, there still seems like a good chance that a person unable to prevent being purged will be similarly unable to appear in person to defend their status at a later date.
Seems a lot like there's way more than a fractional chance your provisional vote gets tossed, which means they are no panacea for being disenfranchised.
+16
Options
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
edited June 2018
We’ve seen in close elections, like in the Virginia specials, how if provisional ballots actually matter to the result they end up litigated to hell and back. I don’t want my vote’s validity to depend on which side has the best lawyers just because I missed a postcard in the mail.
Also, not voting in elections shouldn’t be grounds for deregistering, it should be a clarion call to make voting easier for that person, not less. If you don’t vote it’s because you don’t care enough or couldn’t overcome the hurdles, and the response to neither should be to add more fucking hurdles in your path.
Astaereth on
+26
Options
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
spool is approaching this issue incorrectly to begin with
we know that adding any extra step to voting decreases turnout. we know that is true.
therefore, the impetus is on the state to prove that any voter roll purge is serving a good and necessary public purpose. if you want to argue that it's bad to have shaggy voter rolls, you have to
1) actually make that argument. why is that bad? what measurably deleterious effect is this having on society?
2) prove that the Ohio legislation resolves or mitigates this issue.
3) prove that the demonstrable, observed fact that the legislation causes people not to vote is worth less than the effect outlined in 1).
right now there is exactly zero reason to believe that this legislation is practical or effective, and very profoundly compelling reason to believe that it is strictly about keeping Democrats from voting.
Like, seriously, the way you clean up the voter registration lists is you:
1) Cross check death certificates with the voter rolls (FUCKING CAREFULLY, because people can have the same name)
2) Ask people if they need to change their registration when they get their official state ID with a new address on it
Which is exactly what the NVRA did, with the addition of also asking people getting their state IDs if they would like to register to vote for the first time if they had never done so.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Also stop being fucking cheap, but we know the real goal is to fuck minorities and other non-GOP friendly groups out of a vote. Like the the best way to ensure accurate voter rolls when purging them of dead people, is to actually hire people that go out in person and verify someone is actually dead because of the whole issue of people having the same name or I'd wager you get a few times where stuff gets fucked up because of identify theft.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
There are a lot of homeless and or poor people who do not have a licence. People who have the mental stability to vote can hopefully remember their social, and so in this specific instance it should be ok. But its not nesc going to be ok in every system.
then they never registered in the first place, and we are talking about a different problem. These are people who already succeeded at all the other stuff once, and then just... didn't vote, for nearly a decade.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
IDs expire. If they even needed an id to vote when they first registered.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
Look if your complaint is that people will break the law to deny a vote to someone, I'm on your side!
If your argument is that it's a shocking travesty for someone to:
- Register to vote with the documents they need
- Let eight years pass by without ever exercising the right
- Show up at a polling place with no ability to prove who they are
- Get given a provisional ballot anyway
- Then later have to take their ID up the courthouse to prove they actually live in the district
Well, yeah that's annoying! But like, what's the alternative? Just take a ballot from anyone, anytime, anywhere?
I guess one solution is: never purge the voter rolls! And that does get me right to Shorty's point - there does need to be an affirmative reason for cleaning up registration databases, and the remedy has to address that reason with the smallest impact possible.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
This is weird to you?
Yes it is weird to be a citizen and have a job but have no way to show your employer that you are eligible to have the job. We're down to "I lost my license" type situations now.
Also it's really easy for stuff to get lost in the mail; especially, when you recently changed addresses. I should know, I've had it happen to me. Even worse, it's throwing an important document into snail mail, where it takes time to get to the old address. Then it takes time for it to make its way to the new address. The new residents at the old address might be really fucking slow about checking their mail, so even more time before it gets sent back or they might dicks and just toss everything that isn't their mail.
The Court fucked up, they should have ruled against the purges. Told the fucking republicans, that if they were serious about the integrity of elections, then they can find the fucking resources to ensure that the only people getting purged from the records are those that have been confirmed to be dead and not have it be an issue of having the same exact name or identity theft bullshit, or those that have been confirmed to have moved out of the state. If they are registered to more than one place (aka able to vote in two races that should be exclusive when it comes to voters), then figure out the correct and remove the incorrect ones (let's be honest most of these are going to be a case of mistakes in record keeping on either the government or the individual's part, very few are going to be actual attempts at voter fraud).
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
This is weird to you?
Yes it is weird to be a citizen and have a job but have no way to show your employer that you are eligible to have the job. We're down to "I lost my license" type situations now.
You're describing literally millions of people. Mostly poor minorities. People who either don't or can't work or the working poor. I'm none of those things and if I didn't drive I could go years at a time never actually needing my photo ID.
Your incredulity is yours to keep if you like, but there are exhaustive studies on the demographics and life situation of the newly disenfranchised.
Look if your complaint is that people will break the law to deny a vote to someone, I'm on your side!
If your argument is that it's a shocking travesty for someone to:
- Register to vote with the documents they need
- Let eight years pass by without ever exercising the right
- Show up at a polling place with no ability to prove who they are
- Get given a provisional ballot anyway
- Then later have to take their ID up the courthouse to prove they actually live in the district
Well, yeah that's annoying! But like, what's the alternative? Just take a ballot from anyone, anytime, anywhere?
I guess one solution is: never purge the voter rolls! And that does get me right to Shorty's point - there does need to be an affirmative reason for cleaning up registration databases, and the remedy has to address that reason with the smallest impact possible.
Fun fact: that sequence of events you list breaks the law. You *cannot* remove someone based on inactivity. Ohio tossed a fig leaf over it, which the court bought because Roberts and co hate voting laws. But the law is clear.
And it's clear that way because it's been repeatedly demonstrated that people cannot be trusted with it otherwise.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
This is weird to you?
Yes it is weird to be a citizen and have a job but have no way to show your employer that you are eligible to have the job. We're down to "I lost my license" type situations now.
You're describing literally millions of people. Mostly poor minorities. People who either don't or can't work or the working poor. I'm none of those things and if I didn't drive I could go years at a time never actually needing my photo ID.
Your incredulity is yours to keep if you like, but there are exhaustive studies on the demographics and life situation of the newly disenfranchised.
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
How do you propose to help people who:
- vote too infrequently to stay on a roll
- are too poor to take the day off from their job
- but don't have the ID they used to get hired
- and are also unable to mail in a ballot during early voting
- and don't have time to fill in a voter registration website
I guess we could start dipping fingers in indelible ink? Except they can't go because they're too poor to take the day off. I mean, you want to propose free State ID cards? SOLD. Make sure everyone can prove their identity!
But that falls apart to the same "too much of a barrier" argument to have people update their addresses on the free ID or remember to get a new one if they lost it before the vote. Anything except "a week of open polling, no questions asked, come one come all" is a barrier to voting. What do we do?
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
This is just the "there are more white people disenfranchised than black people" justification that the South used to defend racist voting rights laws.
Look if your complaint is that people will break the law to deny a vote to someone, I'm on your side!
If your argument is that it's a shocking travesty for someone to:
- Register to vote with the documents they need
- Let eight years pass by without ever exercising the right
- Show up at a polling place with no ability to prove who they are
- Get given a provisional ballot anyway
- Then later have to take their ID up the courthouse to prove they actually live in the district
Well, yeah that's annoying! But like, what's the alternative? Just take a ballot from anyone, anytime, anywhere?
I guess one solution is: never purge the voter rolls! And that does get me right to Shorty's point - there does need to be an affirmative reason for cleaning up registration databases, and the remedy has to address that reason with the smallest impact possible.
that sequence of events you list breaks the law. You *cannot* remove someone based on inactivity. Ohio tossed a fig leaf over it, which the court bought because Roberts and co hate voting laws. But the law is clear.
And it's clear that way because it's been repeatedly demonstrated that people cannot be trusted with it otherwise.
A fair point - and I think we agree that this is a sketchy loophole that ought to be closed. The case was decided correctly though, and the reality is that any purge will catch some people who shouldn't be removed. Ohio's doesn't seem to have been done in a way intended to minimize false positives, though I haven't seen actual numbers.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
This is weird to you?
Yes it is weird to be a citizen and have a job but have no way to show your employer that you are eligible to have the job. We're down to "I lost my license" type situations now.
You're describing literally millions of people. Mostly poor minorities. People who either don't or can't work or the working poor. I'm none of those things and if I didn't drive I could go years at a time never actually needing my photo ID.
Your incredulity is yours to keep if you like, but there are exhaustive studies on the demographics and life situation of the newly disenfranchised.
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
Selective interpretation of ID requirements. That's how this game has always worked.
White supremacists don't want people of color to vote, so they fuck around and play Calvinball.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If you are not registered, you do not have access to voting? At least, thats how I understood the system to work.
You can vote provisionally, at the poll, and once the State determines that you're eligible, your vote is counted.
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
Before your provisional ballot can be included in the official count of an election, the board of elections must confirm your eligibility to cast the ballot, as well as the validity of the ballot that you cast.
If you cast your provisional ballot and provided acceptable proof of identity, you typically do not need to provide any additional information to the board of elections.
Proof of identity: If you cast a provisional ballot and did not provide acceptable proof of identity at the time of voting, you must appear in person at the board of elections to provide such proof within the seven days immediately following Election Day, in accordance with Ohio law. Acceptable forms of identification to validate your provisional ballot are:
An Ohio driver’s license or state identification card number (begins with two letters followed by six numbers);
The last four digits of the voter’s Social Security number; or
A copy of a current and valid photo identification, a military identification, or a current (within the last 12 months) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck or other government document (other than a notice of voter registration mailed by a board of elections) that shows the voter’s name and current address.
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
This is weird to you?
Yes it is weird to be a citizen and have a job but have no way to show your employer that you are eligible to have the job. We're down to "I lost my license" type situations now.
You're describing literally millions of people. Mostly poor minorities. People who either don't or can't work or the working poor. I'm none of those things and if I didn't drive I could go years at a time never actually needing my photo ID.
Your incredulity is yours to keep if you like, but there are exhaustive studies on the demographics and life situation of the newly disenfranchised.
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
This is just the "there are more white people disenfranchised than black people" justification that the South used to defend racist voting rights laws.
Not, of course, counting when the law is deliberately fashioned to exclude the IDs blacks are more likely to have.
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
This is just the "there are more white people disenfranchised than black people" justification that the South used to defend racist voting rights laws.
No it's not and I don't appreciate the insinuation. If the argument is that poverty makes it hard to keep your ID current, it doesn't follow that minorities would make up most of the affected in a straight headcount of People Without ID Due to Poverty, because the majority of poor people are white.
Arguing that it impacts minorities disproportionately per capita, or that a larger percentage of a given minority is poor, that might hold water, but Styrofoam's statement doesn't make logical sense.
Anything except "a week of open polling, no questions asked, come one come all" is a barrier to voting. What do we do?
Election day is a federal holiday; massively expand the number of polling places, especially in cities; automatic registration; new VRA with pre-clearance; impeach Roberts for Shelby. OK, that last one is a pipe dream, but still.
These are basically standing Democratic priorities at this point.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
ustice Sonia Sotomayor, in one of the Supreme Court’s dissenting opinions, agreed. “As one example, amici point to an investigation that revealed that in Hamilton County, ‘African-American-majority neighborhoods in downtown Cincinnati had 10% of their voters removed due to inactivity’ since 2012, as ‘compared to only 4% of voters in a suburban, majority-white neighborhood,’” Sotomayor wrote, citing a brief from the NAACP.
Posts
How is said eligibility determined?
Is there even a fraction of a chance that regardless of meeting all criteria they can just decide "nope fuck it" and toss the vote? Then provisional ballots are wholly bullshit.
First: I'm pretty sure that's not true if you're not actually registered.
Second: there are a billion things that can go wrong with provisional ballots, not least of which is that our poll workers are often poorly trained.
Or they're biased so they won't help the minority that just got angry and loud because they weren't registered when they should have been.
Well, obviously. But even if they're not actually biased, they're still fairly likely to fuck it up.
I agree with a lot of this and certainly if its harder than "show your ID" to file a provisional ballot and requires something other than an online follow-up, that's going to be a problem for some people.
Certainly there are more poor white people in this country than there are poor blacks, so I can't agree with barriers based on time or lack of documentation due to poverty being a stand-in for disproportional minority impact. It probably does stand in for disproportional impact on Democrats, which is less bad but still ought to be smoothed over where possible.
We do still need to have people vote where they live, and occasionally they will have to prove that fact. In the Ohio case, we're talking not about people who are registering for the first time though, but people who already registered once but vote once per decade, or less frequently, and have as a result fallen off the rolls.
Some kind of system for purging the rolls needs to exist! I'm all for coming up with something that doesn't screw legitimate voters but there's going to be a paperwork hurdle to fix the mistakes and I don't see how you get around that.
To reiterate, this is expressly forbidden by law.
You are being absurd, spool
Some purges are intentional disenfranchisement. Some purges are routine data cleaning with human error thrown in. The Ohio case is only the latter if you turn your head 180 degrees and insist that an obvious technical attempt to just barely skirt the the law, with some awfully convenient results concerning the demographics of those most likely to be negatively affected by the method of the purge, is a perfectly above board way to administer the most foundational right of an ordinary American citizen to select their government.
The policy argument for the necessity of this 'inconvenience' is weak. There is unlikely to be anything necessary for appropriate voter registration that requires the notification of lapsed voter activity to be a snail mail postcard that has to be mailed back in the decade of the internet. If there is an IT need for updated data, a physical card that needs to be filled out--handwritten!!--being the way to transmit validated and updated data is a laughable way to achieve that end.
This does not even touch on the fact that the government's interest in maintaining clean voter rolls, when weighed against the potential disenfranchisement of individual citizens, barely tips the scale in its favor. If the government wants a clean spreadsheet, it has many other ways to verify data that does not result in the elevated likelihood that eligible voters (of any demographic or party, let's sweetly pretend) will be dumped in the process. Pass a state law allowing the state motor vehicle commission, state tax authority, state health commission, state medicaid agency, etc. to share limited and updated data for individuals to verify that they are still living, still domiciled, and still bloody registered to vote. Whether or not an individual reliably exercises the franchise is not the only method by which the government can gain an understanding of whether that person is still an eligible, and therefore enfranchised, citizen.
Whether or not it is an inconvenience or a proper burden, it has a deleterious effect on how many eligible people can and will vote in the real world, in a way that is tenuously connected to its stated policy objective, that does not rise to the level of outweighing the right to vote. It's either a pointless exercise or a pointedly bad faith exercise. There's no innocent nonpartisan IT department But The Data Demands reason that can be plausibly claimed unless, of course, you're Alito, and this is what god put you on earth to do
NNID: Hakkekage
It depends on the State. In Ohio, here's the rule:
So, if you show up to vote and you haven't voted in more than 8 years and you also don't have your Driver's License with you, you're gonna have to show up somewhere in person to validate your provisional ballot. If you brought your license, you're all good, your vote counts.
This would be my primary argument against the address-verification purge loophole.
While provisional ballots are technically the safety net here, assuming that system is properly enforced; though I fear it is often not.
But speaking of possibly baseless fears wrt voting: are there numbers to support my fear on this? As opposed to the GOP fears of illegal voting.
This was literally one of the points of the NVRA, to help states clean up the registration process. It's a pretty short statute and is pretty clear in its purposes. And it did a good job.
Unfortunately, it's politically inconvenient for the party of white supremacy, so it's got to go, just like pre-clearance had to go.
There are a lot of homeless and or poor people who do not have a licence. People who have the mental stability to vote can hopefully remember their social, and so in this specific instance it should be ok. But its not nesc going to be ok in every system.
Part of the issue is that each individual part is not itself an insurmountable issue. Its the collection of rules applied together that make the system discriminatory.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
This is a significant barrier to the working poor!
Im smelling a lot of "if" coming off of this plan
Its fine, just take an extra day off, travel to a place, and show us documentation that you definitely have. No real burden at all.
Just gotta run your vote by the totally not partisan and why are you asking Board of Elections first.
Even if administered properly, there still seems like a good chance that a person unable to prevent being purged will be similarly unable to appear in person to defend their status at a later date.
Also, not voting in elections shouldn’t be grounds for deregistering, it should be a clarion call to make voting easier for that person, not less. If you don’t vote it’s because you don’t care enough or couldn’t overcome the hurdles, and the response to neither should be to add more fucking hurdles in your path.
we know that adding any extra step to voting decreases turnout. we know that is true.
therefore, the impetus is on the state to prove that any voter roll purge is serving a good and necessary public purpose. if you want to argue that it's bad to have shaggy voter rolls, you have to
1) actually make that argument. why is that bad? what measurably deleterious effect is this having on society?
2) prove that the Ohio legislation resolves or mitigates this issue.
3) prove that the demonstrable, observed fact that the legislation causes people not to vote is worth less than the effect outlined in 1).
right now there is exactly zero reason to believe that this legislation is practical or effective, and very profoundly compelling reason to believe that it is strictly about keeping Democrats from voting.
1) Cross check death certificates with the voter rolls (FUCKING CAREFULLY, because people can have the same name)
2) Ask people if they need to change their registration when they get their official state ID with a new address on it
Which is exactly what the NVRA did, with the addition of also asking people getting their state IDs if they would like to register to vote for the first time if they had never done so.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
then they never registered in the first place, and we are talking about a different problem. These are people who already succeeded at all the other stuff once, and then just... didn't vote, for nearly a decade.
The working poor who used to have an ID back when they registered to vote, but now have a job but don't have an ID anymore?
IDs expire. If they even needed an id to vote when they first registered.
This is weird to you?
If your argument is that it's a shocking travesty for someone to:
- Register to vote with the documents they need
- Let eight years pass by without ever exercising the right
- Show up at a polling place with no ability to prove who they are
- Get given a provisional ballot anyway
- Then later have to take their ID up the courthouse to prove they actually live in the district
Well, yeah that's annoying! But like, what's the alternative? Just take a ballot from anyone, anytime, anywhere?
I guess one solution is: never purge the voter rolls! And that does get me right to Shorty's point - there does need to be an affirmative reason for cleaning up registration databases, and the remedy has to address that reason with the smallest impact possible.
Yes it is weird to be a citizen and have a job but have no way to show your employer that you are eligible to have the job. We're down to "I lost my license" type situations now.
The Court fucked up, they should have ruled against the purges. Told the fucking republicans, that if they were serious about the integrity of elections, then they can find the fucking resources to ensure that the only people getting purged from the records are those that have been confirmed to be dead and not have it be an issue of having the same exact name or identity theft bullshit, or those that have been confirmed to have moved out of the state. If they are registered to more than one place (aka able to vote in two races that should be exclusive when it comes to voters), then figure out the correct and remove the incorrect ones (let's be honest most of these are going to be a case of mistakes in record keeping on either the government or the individual's part, very few are going to be actual attempts at voter fraud).
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
You're describing literally millions of people. Mostly poor minorities. People who either don't or can't work or the working poor. I'm none of those things and if I didn't drive I could go years at a time never actually needing my photo ID.
Your incredulity is yours to keep if you like, but there are exhaustive studies on the demographics and life situation of the newly disenfranchised.
Fun fact: that sequence of events you list breaks the law. You *cannot* remove someone based on inactivity. Ohio tossed a fig leaf over it, which the court bought because Roberts and co hate voting laws. But the law is clear.
And it's clear that way because it's been repeatedly demonstrated that people cannot be trusted with it otherwise.
Poor white people are somehow better able to have an ID? How does that work?
How do you propose to help people who:
- vote too infrequently to stay on a roll
- are too poor to take the day off from their job
- but don't have the ID they used to get hired
- and are also unable to mail in a ballot during early voting
- and don't have time to fill in a voter registration website
I guess we could start dipping fingers in indelible ink? Except they can't go because they're too poor to take the day off. I mean, you want to propose free State ID cards? SOLD. Make sure everyone can prove their identity!
But that falls apart to the same "too much of a barrier" argument to have people update their addresses on the free ID or remember to get a new one if they lost it before the vote. Anything except "a week of open polling, no questions asked, come one come all" is a barrier to voting. What do we do?
A fair point - and I think we agree that this is a sketchy loophole that ought to be closed. The case was decided correctly though, and the reality is that any purge will catch some people who shouldn't be removed. Ohio's doesn't seem to have been done in a way intended to minimize false positives, though I haven't seen actual numbers.
Selective interpretation of ID requirements. That's how this game has always worked.
White supremacists don't want people of color to vote, so they fuck around and play Calvinball.
Not, of course, counting when the law is deliberately fashioned to exclude the IDs blacks are more likely to have.
No it's not and I don't appreciate the insinuation. If the argument is that poverty makes it hard to keep your ID current, it doesn't follow that minorities would make up most of the affected in a straight headcount of People Without ID Due to Poverty, because the majority of poor people are white.
Arguing that it impacts minorities disproportionately per capita, or that a larger percentage of a given minority is poor, that might hold water, but Styrofoam's statement doesn't make logical sense.
Election day is a federal holiday; massively expand the number of polling places, especially in cities; automatic registration; new VRA with pre-clearance; impeach Roberts for Shelby. OK, that last one is a pipe dream, but still.
These are basically standing Democratic priorities at this point.
Again, this is reality vs Spool's headcanon