I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Hollywood sucks at derivative sci-fi and is good at completely new blood.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
+1
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
Gotta remember, Hollywood has been shit at Sci-Fi for a looooooong time.
The collection of horrible 70's, 80's, and 90's Sci-Fi is massive.
I'm just happy at the recent resurgence of mainstream big budget Sci-Fi as a whole, in so many genres and different types of media. We'll get some gems and probably a classic or two in the next few years.
jungleroomx on
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
During that bad run a bunch of interesting sci fi came out, like inception, interstellar, moon (depending on how far back you want to go), Ex Machina, Chappie, District 9...
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
During that bad run a bunch of interesting sci fi came out, like inception, interstellar, moon (depending on how far back you want to go), Ex Machina, Chappie, District 9...
All those are original works, right?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
0
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
During that bad run a bunch of interesting sci fi came out, like inception, interstellar, moon (depending on how far back you want to go), Ex Machina, Chappie, District 9...
All those are original works, right?
That doesn't seem to be the argument anywhere in this quote tree. Hollywood / independent filmmakers make plenty of engaging and thought provoking sci fi. They also make tent pole blockbusters so they have enough money to take the loss on a risky project from time to time.
Cloud Atlas was a sci fi adaptation that I loved, though it was risky, lost money and not everyone agrees with love for it.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
You could probably argue more easily that Hollywood adaptations of anime--Speed Racer, Dragon Ball Evolution most obviously--have been a bad run overall (and that might be generous).
Or even Hollywood adaptations of series that owe some inspiration to the serialized, concrete-length format of anime, like Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Or even Hollywood adaptions that are clearly bastardized copies of anime films, like Stealth and Independence Day 2 (both bastardized copies of Macross Plus and SDF Macross respectively).*
All pretty bad to terrible films.
*Okay, I'm joking about the last category--even though it's impossible for me to see Stealth as anything but a strange clone of Macross Plus
if i had directed this film it would have been two hours of her fighting tanks and tearing her own arms off then getting new arms and doing it again
For my part I think I would have taken the Winter Soldier approach and dived right into the Laughing Man storyline (likely heavily altered with some more fight scenes spliced in) to tell a noir story about cyborgs, self-identity, mind hacking, and Theseus's paradox.
Culminating with a big set piece fight with all the destruction. Big ol' western shoot 'em up with spider tanks and really big guns.
if i had directed this film it would have been two hours of her fighting tanks and tearing her own arms off then getting new arms and doing it again
It takes a big man to recognize the limitations of the medium.
It takes a big, smart man to recognize those limitations and then spin them out into two to three movies each year, complete with tie-in Lego video games.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
Lego Motoko kusanagi vs darth Vader, predator and baudrilliard
Lego Motoko kusanagi vs darth Vader, predator and baudrilliard
What I'm saying, sensei, is that I'm interesting in becoming a founding shareholder for the Surreality Cinematic Universe and will wait for my investment literature in the mail.
I'll go see it but I am increasingly worried that Hollywood is losing the ability to make engaging sci-fi. Messing up GiTS is forgiveable, turning it into a generic action movie is not. We'll see tho!
Arrival?
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
During that bad run a bunch of interesting sci fi came out, like inception, interstellar, moon (depending on how far back you want to go), Ex Machina, Chappie, District 9...
All those are original works, right?
That doesn't seem to be the argument anywhere in this quote tree. Hollywood / independent filmmakers make plenty of engaging and thought provoking sci fi. They also make tent pole blockbusters so they have enough money to take the loss on a risky project from time to time.
Cloud Atlas was a sci fi adaptation that I loved, though it was risky, lost money and not everyone agrees with love for it.
It was the argument I just made. I think if you make a tent pole blockbuster, stay away from sci fi remakes
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
0
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
i make many joek about the tank scene but for me it was by far my favourite scene in the original gits
the key point for me was that it was a descent ( basis), rather than a climax - both in the way it is presented, with the gloomy music and carefully chosen ambient sounds, and through a series of tools
the whole scene pays much more attention to objects than usual in an action scene - from her carefully opening the case and removing the magazines and grenades, to the sound of the magazine striking the water with a sizzling hiss, to the sound of raindrops and individual piece of rubble and wire being struck by bullets. first she works her way through her conventional tools - the weapons, and so on. then she realises this isnt going to work, and removes her clothing (ayy) in order to use her thermoptic camo. but finally she is compelled to resort to her final set of instruments - her arms - and uses them as we might use a tool. not as a part of herself, that cannot be risked - as a human would - but as an object that can be expended in the pursuit of her goal. her relationship to her body is so utterly different to a conventional human that she is willing to destroy herself simply to achieve an objective. and there is no excitement here - the music isnt expecting you to get hyped about this, merely to observe as indifferently as she does each individual fibre in her back tearing itself to shreds.
her emotionless face being grasped by the claw of the spider tank, eyes open and watching, mouth closed and unmoving, is a fabulous summary of how bizarre and alienated her experience is from a normal humans. it is characterisation without her having to say a word
the key point for me was that it was a descent ( basis), rather than a climax - both in the way it is presented, with the gloomy music and carefully chosen ambient sounds, and through a series of tools
the whole scene pays much more attention to objects than usual in an action scene - from her carefully opening the case and removing the magazines and grenades, to the sound of the magazine striking the water with a sizzling hiss, to the sound of raindrops and individual piece of rubble and wire being struck by bullets. first she works her way through her conventional tools - the weapons, and so on. then she realises this isnt going to work, and removes her clothing (ayy) in order to use her thermoptic camo. but finally she is compelled to resort to her final set of instruments - her arms - and uses them as we might use a tool. not as a part of herself, that cannot be risked - as a human would - but as an object that can be expended in the pursuit of her goal. her relationship to her body is so utterly different to a conventional human that she is willing to destroy herself simply to achieve an objective. and there is no excitement here - the music isnt expecting you to get hyped about this, merely to observe as indifferently as she does each individual fibre in her back tearing itself to shreds.
her emotionless face being grasped by the claw of the spider tank, eyes open and watching, mouth closed and unmoving, is a fabulous summary of how bizarre and alienated her experience is from a normal humans. it is characterisation without her having to say a word
more spider tank fites pls
This is a great scene to demonstrate why GiTS is interesting and unique. There is a disconnect from humanity on both sides. The Major through the whole fight is acting dispassionately. She works with every tool and understands the body itself is just as expendable as a bullet.
In fact the tank shows more life like reactions to being shot. The ducking of the head. The pulling back a bit when she hits him. The search for the attacker with the second grenade.
I need to read a few more reviews but I think this movie is going to be a wait till on HBO and I can sit at home and rant movie.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The reviews saying that the philosophy in this movie is literally the opposite of the philosophy in the origional series and movies depresses me.
I've heard all kinds of interpretations.
I've heard it's westernized, dumbed-down, non-existant, opposite of the original, ripping off Robocop, etc etc.
I'll reserve judgment for after viewing, because there's enough people out there rooting for this thing to fail that getting a fair review seems about as difficult as getting one for the Ghostbusters remake.
@Kana Thank you so much for your sophisticated posts! They are extremely enlightening. They'll be very helpful when I rewatched GitS 1995 and SAC in the next couple of weeks.
Edit: and Synthesis too!
I thing I'd suggest is that not to forget that Oshii's film, while much beloved, is a very....stylized (I almost said 'esoteric')...take on the franchise. GITS isn't that old, and we can literally point to a particular property and say, "Hey, here's where everything started"--the serialized manga in a Kodansha magazine (which still owns many, if not all the publication rights in Japan). Oshii--who knows comedy, as anyone who's seen the Patlabor series can attest--has a flare for the dramatic and the brooding. So if the film was your first exposure to the property, there'd be a very clear reason why you'd see Major Kusanagi as this brooding, unhappy, navel-gazing loner. That's what Oshii was going for, and you see the same in the second Patlabor film, or in his Keberos saga, especially in the film Jin Roh: The Wolf Brigade.
But that's the thing: not only is the film not particularly deep compared to what came before and after it (because it trades explanation and world-building for set-pieces and biblical imagery over philosophy, and it's very constrained by length. If you've never read it, the manga has long, perhaps unnecessary winding passages of speculation and explanation on everything from political hierarchy to fiber-optic manufacturing techniques--you can debate whether or not that's a positive contribution, but it's there, and it's definitely depth (even if it a negative rather than positive--I feel much the later). But more importantly, the character of the Major is very different. She doesn't brood (except the privacy of her own mind, and even then rarely), she's quick to anger (and quick to forgive), she regularly teases her comrades and even engages in some mildly hijinks, and trades insults. Batou, Togusa, and Ishikawa are much the same, though it's less obvious for Saito, Bouma, and Pazu, who have somewhat undeveloped personalities overall. She has a romantic life (and two girlfriends and a boyfriend) that Batou even teasers her about (that's even before the cheesecake lesbian virtual experience that didn't make it into the original Dark Horse release). Of the three most famous Masamune Shiro heroines, she's probably in the middle when it comes to the "most goofy".
Of course, I'm assuming you're not familiar with the manga--I could be be wrong. But this addresses American audiences in general, for whom the Oshii blockbuster is the "canonical origin" of the character. It's not--it's just one radically different interpretation by a different artist. And the Oshii film is certainly of cultural significant in Japan, in the way Blade Runner or The Matrix are in the US, but it hasn't completely eclipsed the original manga release. That's probably why Mira Killian is the way she is and not, for example, like the Major Kusanagi of Stand Alone Complex--itself a compromise between the manga and the Oshii film. A little brooding, more navel-gazing, and a little bit of a sense of humor and childish teasing. The social face of the character from the book (complete with a military service uniform) and a disenchanted loner. Arise swings back more in the direction of Oshii, both in terms of character designs but also behavior.
On the topic of race, different interpretations also can say something. Masamune Shiro actually flat-out spelled it out in the supplementary materials and when he was working with Production I.G when it produced SAC: the Major looks Asian by virtue of using an out-of-date (if not obsolete) artificial body based on a Japanese model around a decade before the events of the series (whom she gave violet hair and red eyes because of a childhood inclination towards bright colors). So around 2020, an unusual (but not abnormally) tall Japanese fashion or magazine model sold her appearance to a manufacturer, that churned out a large number artificial bodies that died off in popularity as fast as they appeared, the iPhone 3G of gynoid bodies. In the artistic sense, I can see why people sometimes describe Oshii's portrayal as possessing "more Occidental features"--by contrast, Masamune pretty consistent drew her in the style he drew his other Asian leads (Deunan Knute being the exception), distinct from women other ethnicities (since he gravitated towards very diverse casts in other works). Stand Alone Complex had the time to directly address issues of race (and make it a cornerstone of the plotline via the Asian Refugee Crisis), openly discusses Japanese racism as well as the the typical portrayal of Japanese in American cinema (courtesy of two Japanese-American CIA agents who appear in both seasons). You can do that when you have 52 episodes and a film, obviously, but the series clearly spells out ethnicity across the cast (as well as the origins of the Major herself).
Of course, all this is stuff you can probably figure out on your own Feral--but I think it's worth spelling out. Each time an Iron Man or Captain America film comes out--and they do somewhat regularly--it's easy on these forums to consider them in the light of an existing canon of material and a complete image of their cultural significance, for better or worse--let's not even begin with Star Wars. And now we have Ghost in the Shell, which can actually be afforded the same courtesy (when a lot of other franchises can't)--though not necessarily in an American audience.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
also its worth noting canonically she spends a lot of time in cyberspace :. she loves memes
also its worth noting canonically she spends a lot of time in cyberspace :. she loves memes
In 2030, there is no internet anonymity, simply real (and political) personas that exist only on the 'net, and are often subject to the same threats of force tangible personalities are.
In 2030, there are no memes, only un-concealable human behavior accessible virtually across the world.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
Kana covers that exact point in a really well written post like, a page ago, dude
Read it
Anime walks an odd line though. There are so many shows set in Europe or the USA with characters clearly meant to be Caucasian that are drawn to be extremely similar to what you'd see in a Japan-based show. The line really gets blurred if you get into their takes on western fantasy. Overall I think you put far more emphasis and importance on it than they do.
Eyes in Japanese illustration are all over the place
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Of course, all this is stuff you can probably figure out on your own Feral--but I think it's worth spelling out. Each time an Iron Man or Captain America film comes out--and they do somewhat regularly--it's easy on these forums to consider them in the light of an existing canon of material and a complete image of their cultural significance, for better or worse--let's not even begin with Star Wars. And now we have Ghost in the Shell, which can actually be afforded the same courtesy (when a lot of other franchises can't)--though not necessarily in an American audience.
A few notes about me personally:
I haven't read the manga, but I'm (I hope) not the only person who finds your (and Kana's and scheck's) posts helpful.
I got an inkling of what you and Kana are talking about from my viewings, but getting interpretation from people more familiar with the source material and with Japanese culture makes it more likely that my interpretations aren't based on merely an American's orientalist stereotypes.
Even if you're retreading stuff I already know, or might be obvious to some other readers, there's still a ton of material between your/Kana/scheck's posts that I either hadn't noticed, or hadn't thought about in remotely as much depth. I suspect that's going to be the same for others.
For example, I'm very familiar with Zhuang Zi's butterfly dream, but I'd never put it together with this story before. I've always considered that to be an Eastern counterpart to Decartes's evil demon - perhaps we are always dreaming, and we can never intimately know whether there is any objective truth to reality. However, I'd never before considered that Decartes answers that conundrum in a very individualistic way: "I think, therefore I am." He knows something about himself, and through that knowing learns something about reality. Zhuang Zi is not merely questioning the authority of his senses, but also his identity. I've always left out the last line in my mental concept: "This is the transformation of material things." That changes the meaning in a way I had not considered.
Besides, talking about the deeper cultural nuances of the story is a bit more interesting of a discussion than ethnic representation in media, no? Ethnic representation is important and I don't mean to minimize it, but I think we've all seen every side of that argument a million times and there isn't a whole lot of new ground to tread.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I always enjoy threads where we can deep dive on a particular property.
Whether or not GitS 2017 ends up worthwhile or not, it makes for an interesting contrast and gives lots of opportunities for conversation.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
They have no particular ethnicity, but are all Japanese. It's an interesting explanation, although on the "black=bad" stuff, its seems pretty fucking handwavey. e: Also turn down the jazz piano, when people are talking.
But from the standpoint of the whitewashing discussion, declaring every character that doesn't look Japanese to be a 'non-objective' depiction unless it is explicitly stated they aren't Japanese, kind of makes the entire thing into a farce. Real people are not non-objective.
If the character looks like Omar Epps, are they supposed to cast a Japanese person because that character is Japanese?
They have no particular ethnicity, but are all Japanese. It's an interesting explanation, although on the "black=bad" stuff, its seems pretty fucking handwavey. e: Also turn down the jazz piano, when people are talking.
But from the standpoint of the whitewashing discussion, declaring every character that doesn't look Japanese to be a 'non-objective' depiction unless it is explicitly stated they aren't Japanese, kind of makes the entire thing into a farce. Real people are not non-objective.
If the character looks like Omar Epps, are they supposed to cast a Japanese person because that character is Japanese?
The thing is that a character who looks like Omar Epps is very unlikely to be characterized as Japanese in anime or manga. In comparison, characters who to us in the West code as "white" routinely code as ethnically Japanese to the Japanese market. This is in large part because (as was pointed out) Tezuka lifted much of the artistic language he would help codify into the manga style from Western animation houses (most notably Disney.) As such, we see default codes that are similar to our own, but the cultural context is different.
They have no particular ethnicity, but are all Japanese. It's an interesting explanation, although on the "black=bad" stuff, its seems pretty fucking handwavey. e: Also turn down the jazz piano, when people are talking.
But from the standpoint of the whitewashing discussion, declaring every character that doesn't look Japanese to be a 'non-objective' depiction unless it is explicitly stated they aren't Japanese, kind of makes the entire thing into a farce. Real people are not non-objective.
If the character looks like Omar Epps, are they supposed to cast a Japanese person because that character is Japanese?
It does give a very lengthy answer to why so many anime (and manga) characters seem white (to us).
But the bit about "are japanese racist?" is not so good (and not really topic of thread).
Posts
Arrival?
Hollywood sucks at derivative sci-fi and is good at completely new blood.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Solid counterpoint. Perhaps the recent bad run ending with a Star Trek film I couldn't finish is just... a bad run.
Gotta remember, Hollywood has been shit at Sci-Fi for a looooooong time.
The collection of horrible 70's, 80's, and 90's Sci-Fi is massive.
I'm just happy at the recent resurgence of mainstream big budget Sci-Fi as a whole, in so many genres and different types of media. We'll get some gems and probably a classic or two in the next few years.
During that bad run a bunch of interesting sci fi came out, like inception, interstellar, moon (depending on how far back you want to go), Ex Machina, Chappie, District 9...
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
All those are original works, right?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That doesn't seem to be the argument anywhere in this quote tree. Hollywood / independent filmmakers make plenty of engaging and thought provoking sci fi. They also make tent pole blockbusters so they have enough money to take the loss on a risky project from time to time.
Cloud Atlas was a sci fi adaptation that I loved, though it was risky, lost money and not everyone agrees with love for it.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Or even Hollywood adaptations of series that owe some inspiration to the serialized, concrete-length format of anime, like Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Or even Hollywood adaptions that are clearly bastardized copies of anime films, like Stealth and Independence Day 2 (both bastardized copies of Macross Plus and SDF Macross respectively).*
All pretty bad to terrible films.
For my part I think I would have taken the Winter Soldier approach and dived right into the Laughing Man storyline (likely heavily altered with some more fight scenes spliced in) to tell a noir story about cyborgs, self-identity, mind hacking, and Theseus's paradox.
Culminating with a big set piece fight with all the destruction. Big ol' western shoot 'em up with spider tanks and really big guns.
It takes a big man to recognize the limitations of the medium.
It takes a big, smart man to recognize those limitations and then spin them out into two to three movies each year, complete with tie-in Lego video games.
What I'm saying, sensei, is that I'm interesting in becoming a founding shareholder for the Surreality Cinematic Universe and will wait for my investment literature in the mail.
It was the argument I just made. I think if you make a tent pole blockbuster, stay away from sci fi remakes
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
the key point for me was that it was a descent (
the whole scene pays much more attention to objects than usual in an action scene - from her carefully opening the case and removing the magazines and grenades, to the sound of the magazine striking the water with a sizzling hiss, to the sound of raindrops and individual piece of rubble and wire being struck by bullets. first she works her way through her conventional tools - the weapons, and so on. then she realises this isnt going to work, and removes her clothing (ayy) in order to use her thermoptic camo. but finally she is compelled to resort to her final set of instruments - her arms - and uses them as we might use a tool. not as a part of herself, that cannot be risked - as a human would - but as an object that can be expended in the pursuit of her goal. her relationship to her body is so utterly different to a conventional human that she is willing to destroy herself simply to achieve an objective. and there is no excitement here - the music isnt expecting you to get hyped about this, merely to observe as indifferently as she does each individual fibre in her back tearing itself to shreds.
her emotionless face being grasped by the claw of the spider tank, eyes open and watching, mouth closed and unmoving, is a fabulous summary of how bizarre and alienated her experience is from a normal humans. it is characterisation without her having to say a word
more spider tank fites pls
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
This is a great scene to demonstrate why GiTS is interesting and unique. There is a disconnect from humanity on both sides. The Major through the whole fight is acting dispassionately. She works with every tool and understands the body itself is just as expendable as a bullet.
In fact the tank shows more life like reactions to being shot. The ducking of the head. The pulling back a bit when she hits him. The search for the attacker with the second grenade.
I need to read a few more reviews but I think this movie is going to be a wait till on HBO and I can sit at home and rant movie.
I've heard all kinds of interpretations.
I've heard it's westernized, dumbed-down, non-existant, opposite of the original, ripping off Robocop, etc etc.
I'll reserve judgment for after viewing, because there's enough people out there rooting for this thing to fail that getting a fair review seems about as difficult as getting one for the Ghostbusters remake.
But I think I like MovieBob in general
Edit: It's MovieBob so expect swearing and spoilers.
I thing I'd suggest is that not to forget that Oshii's film, while much beloved, is a very....stylized (I almost said 'esoteric')...take on the franchise. GITS isn't that old, and we can literally point to a particular property and say, "Hey, here's where everything started"--the serialized manga in a Kodansha magazine (which still owns many, if not all the publication rights in Japan). Oshii--who knows comedy, as anyone who's seen the Patlabor series can attest--has a flare for the dramatic and the brooding. So if the film was your first exposure to the property, there'd be a very clear reason why you'd see Major Kusanagi as this brooding, unhappy, navel-gazing loner. That's what Oshii was going for, and you see the same in the second Patlabor film, or in his Keberos saga, especially in the film Jin Roh: The Wolf Brigade.
But that's the thing: not only is the film not particularly deep compared to what came before and after it (because it trades explanation and world-building for set-pieces and biblical imagery over philosophy, and it's very constrained by length. If you've never read it, the manga has long, perhaps unnecessary winding passages of speculation and explanation on everything from political hierarchy to fiber-optic manufacturing techniques--you can debate whether or not that's a positive contribution, but it's there, and it's definitely depth (even if it a negative rather than positive--I feel much the later). But more importantly, the character of the Major is very different. She doesn't brood (except the privacy of her own mind, and even then rarely), she's quick to anger (and quick to forgive), she regularly teases her comrades and even engages in some mildly hijinks, and trades insults. Batou, Togusa, and Ishikawa are much the same, though it's less obvious for Saito, Bouma, and Pazu, who have somewhat undeveloped personalities overall. She has a romantic life (and two girlfriends and a boyfriend) that Batou even teasers her about (that's even before the cheesecake lesbian virtual experience that didn't make it into the original Dark Horse release). Of the three most famous Masamune Shiro heroines, she's probably in the middle when it comes to the "most goofy".
Of course, I'm assuming you're not familiar with the manga--I could be be wrong. But this addresses American audiences in general, for whom the Oshii blockbuster is the "canonical origin" of the character. It's not--it's just one radically different interpretation by a different artist. And the Oshii film is certainly of cultural significant in Japan, in the way Blade Runner or The Matrix are in the US, but it hasn't completely eclipsed the original manga release. That's probably why Mira Killian is the way she is and not, for example, like the Major Kusanagi of Stand Alone Complex--itself a compromise between the manga and the Oshii film. A little brooding, more navel-gazing, and a little bit of a sense of humor and childish teasing. The social face of the character from the book (complete with a military service uniform) and a disenchanted loner. Arise swings back more in the direction of Oshii, both in terms of character designs but also behavior.
On the topic of race, different interpretations also can say something. Masamune Shiro actually flat-out spelled it out in the supplementary materials and when he was working with Production I.G when it produced SAC: the Major looks Asian by virtue of using an out-of-date (if not obsolete) artificial body based on a Japanese model around a decade before the events of the series (whom she gave violet hair and red eyes because of a childhood inclination towards bright colors). So around 2020, an unusual (but not abnormally) tall Japanese fashion or magazine model sold her appearance to a manufacturer, that churned out a large number artificial bodies that died off in popularity as fast as they appeared, the iPhone 3G of gynoid bodies. In the artistic sense, I can see why people sometimes describe Oshii's portrayal as possessing "more Occidental features"--by contrast, Masamune pretty consistent drew her in the style he drew his other Asian leads (Deunan Knute being the exception), distinct from women other ethnicities (since he gravitated towards very diverse casts in other works). Stand Alone Complex had the time to directly address issues of race (and make it a cornerstone of the plotline via the Asian Refugee Crisis), openly discusses Japanese racism as well as the the typical portrayal of Japanese in American cinema (courtesy of two Japanese-American CIA agents who appear in both seasons). You can do that when you have 52 episodes and a film, obviously, but the series clearly spells out ethnicity across the cast (as well as the origins of the Major herself).
Of course, all this is stuff you can probably figure out on your own Feral--but I think it's worth spelling out. Each time an Iron Man or Captain America film comes out--and they do somewhat regularly--it's easy on these forums to consider them in the light of an existing canon of material and a complete image of their cultural significance, for better or worse--let's not even begin with Star Wars. And now we have Ghost in the Shell, which can actually be afforded the same courtesy (when a lot of other franchises can't)--though not necessarily in an American audience.
In 2030, there is no internet anonymity, simply real (and political) personas that exist only on the 'net, and are often subject to the same threats of force tangible personalities are.
In 2030, there are no memes, only un-concealable human behavior accessible virtually across the world.
That person with large round light grey-blue eyes is ethnically Japanese?
e: sorry about that.
Read it
I've been repeatedly told that the family mother with a tall blue flat-top afro and bright yellow skin is white.
But I'm bad with these sort of things.
Anime walks an odd line though. There are so many shows set in Europe or the USA with characters clearly meant to be Caucasian that are drawn to be extremely similar to what you'd see in a Japan-based show. The line really gets blurred if you get into their takes on western fantasy. Overall I think you put far more emphasis and importance on it than they do.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Dude there is a fucking nipple.
Batou Getting better at hacking is one of my favorite parts of the series.
A few notes about me personally:
I haven't read the manga, but I'm (I hope) not the only person who finds your (and Kana's and scheck's) posts helpful.
I got an inkling of what you and Kana are talking about from my viewings, but getting interpretation from people more familiar with the source material and with Japanese culture makes it more likely that my interpretations aren't based on merely an American's orientalist stereotypes.
Even if you're retreading stuff I already know, or might be obvious to some other readers, there's still a ton of material between your/Kana/scheck's posts that I either hadn't noticed, or hadn't thought about in remotely as much depth. I suspect that's going to be the same for others.
For example, I'm very familiar with Zhuang Zi's butterfly dream, but I'd never put it together with this story before. I've always considered that to be an Eastern counterpart to Decartes's evil demon - perhaps we are always dreaming, and we can never intimately know whether there is any objective truth to reality. However, I'd never before considered that Decartes answers that conundrum in a very individualistic way: "I think, therefore I am." He knows something about himself, and through that knowing learns something about reality. Zhuang Zi is not merely questioning the authority of his senses, but also his identity. I've always left out the last line in my mental concept: "This is the transformation of material things." That changes the meaning in a way I had not considered.
Besides, talking about the deeper cultural nuances of the story is a bit more interesting of a discussion than ethnic representation in media, no? Ethnic representation is important and I don't mean to minimize it, but I think we've all seen every side of that argument a million times and there isn't a whole lot of new ground to tread.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Whether or not GitS 2017 ends up worthwhile or not, it makes for an interesting contrast and gives lots of opportunities for conversation.
It's like going to WalMart and not expecting to see camouflage pants/MAGA hats.
Penny Arcade, with "wang" in it in some form.
At least in the old days.
They have no particular ethnicity, but are all Japanese. It's an interesting explanation, although on the "black=bad" stuff, its seems pretty fucking handwavey. e: Also turn down the jazz piano, when people are talking.
But from the standpoint of the whitewashing discussion, declaring every character that doesn't look Japanese to be a 'non-objective' depiction unless it is explicitly stated they aren't Japanese, kind of makes the entire thing into a farce. Real people are not non-objective.
If the character looks like Omar Epps, are they supposed to cast a Japanese person because that character is Japanese?
The thing is that a character who looks like Omar Epps is very unlikely to be characterized as Japanese in anime or manga. In comparison, characters who to us in the West code as "white" routinely code as ethnically Japanese to the Japanese market. This is in large part because (as was pointed out) Tezuka lifted much of the artistic language he would help codify into the manga style from Western animation houses (most notably Disney.) As such, we see default codes that are similar to our own, but the cultural context is different.
But the bit about "are japanese racist?" is not so good (and not really topic of thread).