This can only mean one thing. Pgi have invented time travel from constantly fiddling with their unholy game engine that apparently no one knows how to operate.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The biggest thing I noted was the Unreal logo at the beginning, which means they bothered to go through the considerable effort of moving their art assets over to Unreal instead of trying to force the game to work with their hideously Frankensteined version of Cryengine where they apparently don't even know how it all works anymore. I'm betting that's giving them too much credit, though; I doubt transferring 3D models between engines is the chore it was 10-15 years ago.
Other than that, that all looks like bare minimum decent game design for a modern game. Which is already a lot more effort than I would've expected out of PGI, so hey, maybe this thing won't actually be a total waste of time.
Sure looks nice. You can blow up infantry and DFA tanks.
Also, apparently PGI hates helicopters.
Might be remotely impressive if it was five years ago and that footage was for MWO, but at least it doesn't look terrible.
Granted, those are all tiny little chunks of a few seconds each so there's no telling if all that AI is busted, but it does look like a proper Mechwarrior game for the moment.
Mech_Con attendees thought the game played fine, though the AI was a bit busted on the build they played. Still, PGI has had 4 months to work on it since then and another 7-8 until release if they make their 2018 deadline.
I'm not really that concerned about the AI being mediocre as long as the combat feels good. My biggest concern for MW5 is whether PGI can get the feel of the campaign right. A lot of what they've shown so far is clearly inspired by the XCOM reboot, and Russ has stated that MW2:Mercs is one of his favorite games, which is encouraging. They've also got HBS's Battletech to take lessons from when that comes out.
The biggest thing I noted was the Unreal logo at the beginning, which means they bothered to go through the considerable effort of moving their art assets over to Unreal instead of trying to force the game to work with their hideously Frankensteined version of Cryengine where they apparently don't even know how it all works anymore. I'm betting that's giving them too much credit, though; I doubt transferring 3D models between engines is the chore it was 10-15 years ago.
Other than that, that all looks like bare minimum decent game design for a modern game. Which is already a lot more effort than I would've expected out of PGI, so hey, maybe this thing won't actually be a total waste of time.
Didn't they announce that from way back when they revealed that they were working on MW5? I seem to remember that with the first Shadow Hawk footage they released from a year or two (or whenever it was)(edit: just checked, it was a year) back.
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
His biggest problem is that while he's pretty good at using the mechs in the field he doesn't understand the mechlab or how to build mechs for certain objectives so sends them out overgunned and underarmored, then gets demolished, then overcorrects and sends out beefy armor tanks with one gun apiece, etc, and this is all exacerbated by a constant stream of bad advice from his channel. But I really dig watching him; he's a fast learner and a good streamer who manages to be entertaining and funny without being some kind of screaming teenager or obnoxious pewdiepie monstrosity.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?) or how to effectively minimize enemy firepower. Or the concept of falling back. And keeps forgetting to move his mechs.
His jumpy panther PPC mech is a pretty good build, as is his AC20 Centurion mech. But the rest are kind of built oddly, and used oddly (but not as badly as the early days of "Lets scout with our overgunned Sniper mech").
To be fair though, this is the 3025 universe, so the overarmored mech isn't quite as dead as it would have been 25 years later, in a universe filled with Railguns, Ultra ACs, Clan PPCs, HAGs and stuff.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
His biggest problem is that while he's pretty good at using the mechs in the field he doesn't understand the mechlab or how to build mechs for certain objectives so sends them out overgunned and underarmored, then gets demolished, then overcorrects and sends out beefy armor tanks with one gun apiece, etc, and this is all exacerbated by a constant stream of bad advice from his channel. But I really dig watching him; he's a fast learner and a good streamer who manages to be entertaining and funny without being some kind of screaming teenager or obnoxious pewdiepie monstrosity.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?) or how to effectively minimize enemy firepower. Or the concept of falling back. And keeps forgetting to move his mechs.
His jumpy panther PPC mech is a pretty good build, as is his AC20 Centurion mech. But the rest are kind of built oddly, and used oddly (but not as badly as the early days of "Lets scout with our overgunned Sniper mech").
To be fair though, this is the 3025 universe, so the overarmored mech isn't quite as dead as it would have been 25 years later, in a universe filled with Railguns, Ultra ACs, Clan PPCs, HAGs and stuff.
so did they give the game early to streamers and youtubers or something?
Yep.
Thats fucking bullshit imho.
I'd honestly cancel a preorder over that kind of stupid shit, if i wasnt locked in from kickstarter.
We buy into it over a year ago and we gotta wait, some jackass with a camera and a twitch account gets special favors though.
An odd sentiment since $50+ backers got beta access 8 months ago.
In @Buttcleft defense, the beta we played was nothing like what the streamers are playing now. It was fun, but no mechlab or story to try out. It was just bare bones 4v4 battles with prebuilt mechs. Yes, we could change the builds by playing with files, but nothing really close to what the streamers have now.
Myself, I just will wait for the game and ignore streamers for games. Sort of like the old days when you just saw magazine pictures and articles then waited patiently for the game to eventually come out to try out yourself.
Plus this game, no matter how bad, will still be fun for me.
I don't see any reasonable grounds to get mad at HBS for giving out a limited early build to streamers to help drum up interest in the game.
Oh no, two parties are engaging in a mutually beneficial relationship? Woe is me? The sky, she is falling?
And to be honest, giving the game to established streamers who don't know the game well, so people can learn alongside them, is probably a lot better for the game than giving it to a skilled nobody who makes the game seem intimidating and complex by instantly launching into well developed tactics.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?)
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Sure the backer beta was different, but it's not like they gave early access to anybody with a twitch account and he was left out either. It was what, 4 people total, specifically with large followings for the marketing benefit. I'm sure they could have paid their own staff to do some marketing streams, but this way it reached more potential customers than just people who already know about the game.
SiliconStew on
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?)
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Judging from the beta videos I've watched (I kickstarted at the "Watch Nips play" level, so no personal experience), hitting with an AC20 first then multiple lasers means the lasers will most likely distribute their damage across multiple different sections, possibly including the section that had been hit by the AC20.
Doing it the other way means the lasers distributed damage weakens more sections, increasing the likelihood that the AC20 is going to hit weakened armor and deal massive damage.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?)
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Judging from the beta videos I've watched (I kickstarted at the "Watch Nips play" level, so no personal experience), hitting with an AC20 first then multiple lasers means the lasers will most likely distribute their damage across multiple different sections, possibly including the section that had been hit by the AC20.
Doing it the other way means the lasers distributed damage weakens more sections, increasing the likelihood that the AC20 is going to hit weakened armor and deal massive damage.
But I could be wrong here.
In tabletop it is hit with ac20 first to expose internals on a section, then hit with multiple small damage hits, as each hit on an exposed internal has the same odds of causing a critical.
This could easily be changed for the videogame though.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I'd honestly cancel a preorder over that kind of stupid shit, if i wasnt locked in from kickstarter.
We buy into it over a year ago and we gotta wait, some jackass with a camera and a twitch account gets special favors though.
man they're not getting an (early, incomplete) version of the game for being number one best fans forever. It's because they're successful streamers/LPers in this genre, with established audiences. CohhCarnage gets thousands and thousands of people watching when he streams and he has a referral link to GOG on all of his videos; it's probably not a coincidence that Battletech hit #1 on GOG last week.
It's marketing, and that shit matters. It's important. There are lots of strategy gamers out there who could become Battletech fans if they get turned on to the game in the right way, and there are still Battletech fans who don't even know the game exists. Streamers are just another advertising vector, like banners and youtube spots, to help get the word out.
Some dudes are mad that they're not getting first crack but it's like, a) that was never ever ever the promise from day 1, and b) frankly I don't want some of the hardcore Battletech fans out there being the game's ambassadors to the world. Some of them are giant assholes. Some of them are worse than assholes. There are guys on the official forums with names like LightningSS or whatever and I'm just like oh jesus god please never talk about this game where a normal person will see.
Ultimately, I want this game to do well, because I want expansions and sequels and generally way more stuff than will just be in this game. I want a Hatchetman and a Rifleman, I want a full-on Battletech RPG where in between missions you go attend a fancy ball and use your persuasion skill to unmask the assassin at the party, I want a wargame where we move companies and regiments across the IS. I wouldn't want some dorkus messing that up for me.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?)
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Judging from the beta videos I've watched (I kickstarted at the "Watch Nips play" level, so no personal experience), hitting with an AC20 first then multiple lasers means the lasers will most likely distribute their damage across multiple different sections, possibly including the section that had been hit by the AC20.
Doing it the other way means the lasers distributed damage weakens more sections, increasing the likelihood that the AC20 is going to hit weakened armor and deal massive damage.
But I could be wrong here.
If I recall, the argument would be if you theoretically hit a location multiple times, enough to strip armor but don't do enough damage to destroy it, it's better if you can strip the armor with a big hit first because the small followup hits would hit internals and can each roll for a crit. If the small hits come first, the final big hit can only roll once for a crit.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
Why does someone need reasonable grounds to have an opinion on getting mad at a decision that they do not agree with? Did I make a mistake for trying to point out that he has a point by making a somewhat defense for him? Sure.
But I just got bugged that Padre got ticked off about a decision and people jumped on him. I don't always agree with Padre, but I do respect his opinion.
Also the marketing choice the company made is a good way to show off their game to potential buyers. But it can also backfire by turning people off thinking the game isn't good because the streamers do not show off the best of what the game could be.
Just saying... Sorry to ruffle people the wrong way with my comments.
Edit: Also I forgot that some of us learned that Padre can be a bit overly dramatic sometimes. Then shoot you in the back with machine guns. Or in one case a full alpha "by mistake".
And speaking of critical hits, I noticed in the streams that despite the time period, it looks like all mechs get CASE for free. But I suppose that is a necessary rules concession for the campaign to ensure your mechs can still be salvaged and repaired and prevent your pilots from dieing left and right from ammo explosions. It would probably be pretty brutal without it.
SiliconStew on
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?
Wait...are we not supposed to be just sending giant volleys of AC20 fire at the enemy as a first strike tactic? Man, TIL I've been playing these games all wrong.
Or just right :twisted:
@DaMoonRulz Oh man, Chris has been streaming the game? I gotta see this.
Also I really, really wanna volunteer as an OpFor for DFA. I live in the area and when I'm home I have all the time ever. I'd even show up in Oosik uniform
I hope folks give it enough of a chance or decide that it's a game worth playing but you basically have to watch a bunch of streamers to get started, like Paradox darling CKIIevery Paradox game Ever which has done well despite its vertical learning curve.
ftfy. With the exception of Magicka Paradox games are notorious for throwing you in the deep end (head first) with their games.
On the flipside, their games, at least to me, are more about the weird shit that happens while playing the games than about actually winning or losing. I get way more vested in the side research in Stellaris than with the actual conquering the galaxy bit.
Re: MW5 destruction trailer. I'm not gonna lie, I was kinda smiling at how cheesey that trailer felt but for Mechwarrior, that sorta cheese is the finest kind of cheese.
And speaking of critical hits, I noticed in the streams that despite the time period, it looks like all mechs get CASE for free. But I suppose that is a necessary rules concession for the campaign to ensure your mechs can still be salvaged and repaired and prevent your pilots from dieing left and right from ammo explosions. It would probably be pretty brutal without it.
Unless this is one of those rules that got revamped, ammo explosions, while wrecking the 'Mech, aren't generally fatal to the pilot. Although explosions do 2 damage to the pilot, they also usually take the 'Mech out of the game, so unless the pilot was badly hurt to begin with they'll just take the damage and peace out. CASE specifically doesn't prevent this damage, though.
Why does someone need reasonable grounds to have an opinion on getting mad at a decision that they do not agree with? Did I make a mistake for trying to point out that he has a point by making a somewhat defense for him? Sure.
But I just got bugged that Padre got ticked off about a decision and people jumped on him. I don't always agree with Padre, but I do respect his opinion.
Also the marketing choice the company made is a good way to show off their game to potential buyers. But it can also backfire by turning people off thinking the game isn't good because the streamers do not show off the best of what the game could be.
Just saying... Sorry to ruffle people the wrong way with my comments.
Edit: Also I forgot that some of us learned that Padre can be a bit overly dramatic sometimes. Then shoot you in the back with machine guns. Or in one case a full alpha "by mistake".
Chiding someone for being overly negative is far preferable to shitting on someone's positivity. It seems every time I express any kind of enthusiasm for MW5 I get hit with a barrage of "blah blah fuck PGI", which is incredibly grating.
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Because of the way evasion works. The laser/SRM mech saturates shit. It's perfectly fine to make a risky shot since you fire enough projectiles that it's just a bit less damage. For a mech that fires 4 lasers and 12 missiles it's OK to miss with a couple of them. However, with the AC20 you need to risk minimize. Either you hit (and then you hit hard) or you don't hit, and that gives your opponents a huge advantage since they're suddenly up alot in the damage race.
The bigger the gamble, the more you should hedge your bets.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Also I really, really wanna volunteer as an OpFor for DFA. I live in the area and when I'm home I have all the time ever. I'd even show up in Oosik uniform
A dirty white tank top, yesterday’s boxer shorts, and a hangover?
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Because of the way evasion works. The laser/SRM mech saturates shit. It's perfectly fine to make a risky shot since you fire enough projectiles that it's just a bit less damage. For a mech that fires 4 lasers and 12 missiles it's OK to miss with a couple of them. However, with the AC20 you need to risk minimize. Either you hit (and then you hit hard) or you don't hit, and that gives your opponents a huge advantage since they're suddenly up alot in the damage race.
The bigger the gamble, the more you should hedge your bets.
Oh yes, their new evasion chit system where your ability to evade degrades with the number of attacks launched at you. (I think this does make for a more tactically interesting game but does make the light mech lover in me slightly sad.)
This actually puts you in an interesting decision space:
Optimal damage is few high damage attacks followed by multiple low damage attacks.
Optimal accuracy is multiple low damage attacks followed by few high damage attacks.
Deciding what situation calls for what approach should be fun.
On the streamer thing: I guess I don't fully understand why HBS picked these particular streamers.
NGNG I get. The others? I don't follow many streamers (old man here), so it feels like HBS picked a bunch of randoms. Someone help me out here.
Cohh’s streams had 20k+ people watching live and his YouTube vods of those streams have cracked 100k views. And it’s a whole bunch of “I love this game, this is great.” That stuff is super effective advertising. It doesn’t matter that he’s not great right off the bat. It’s about watching someone figure out the systems and learn, which is going to involve people committing mech crimes out of ignorance.
Going in with a whole bunch of gatekeeping nonsense does the game no favors. If we want sequels with more robust feature sets and all of the lovely things that we want, we need the people who are new to the franchise.
I really enjoyed Cohh's stream. He had a wide-eyed enthusiasm for the game, which only built as he took the time to learn mechanics and systems. And he was totally upfront about not knowing much about Battletech.
I don't know if it's what got him picked (it seemed like it was his sponsor relationship with GoG maybe?), but he was also a super backer - like at the flight jacket level. To the extent that there's a fairness issue letting a streamer in early (which I don't think there really is because marketing?), he was already committed to the game long before the opportunity to stream it came about.
Also I really, really wanna volunteer as an OpFor for DFA. I live in the area and when I'm home I have all the time ever. I'd even show up in Oosik uniform
A dirty white tank top, yesterday’s boxer shorts, and a hangover?
Dress uniform, just to keep things classy.
That means the clean tank top, and a half full flask tucked into the boxer shorts waistband.
And speaking of critical hits, I noticed in the streams that despite the time period, it looks like all mechs get CASE for free. But I suppose that is a necessary rules concession for the campaign to ensure your mechs can still be salvaged and repaired and prevent your pilots from dieing left and right from ammo explosions. It would probably be pretty brutal without it.
Unless this is one of those rules that got revamped, ammo explosions, while wrecking the 'Mech, aren't generally fatal to the pilot. Although explosions do 2 damage to the pilot, they also usually take the 'Mech out of the game, so unless the pilot was badly hurt to begin with they'll just take the damage and peace out. CASE specifically doesn't prevent this damage, though.
Sorry, I wasn't talking direct damage. Without CASE, an ammo explosion can spread to the center torso and core the mech which as I recall then made for a rather low percentage roll to successfully eject.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
So, I’ve only watched streams but it seems like you lose one pip of evasion per attack regardless of the nature of the attack.
One LRM 5 pack being fired at you costs you as much evasion as a salvo of 12 medium lasers.
If this is accurate, really seems like something to anchor mech designs and strategies around.
That is accurate. The trick, though, is that the more things are being thrown at the mech at any given stage, the more chances you have to hit. So when the hit chance is lower (via more pips), you want to throw missiles because you're gonna get more chances to pierce the evasion. Then a pip comes off. Now you throw lasers, since yeah you've got a bunch, but even a Hunchie -4P isn't gonna have as many chances as a Kintaro or even a ShadowHawk -2H. Now, if you've used Sensor Lock and organized your fire line, the mech shouldn't have more than 2 pips, so your -Wang is way more likely to core it, not just from better hit chance, but you've also stripped off a whole mess of armor from all over the place, so even a side torso hit may transfer enough damage to crit something in the CT.
This is, of course, how you use an entire lance to take down a light mech in (hopefully) a single round. That's a lot of force commitment and should not be viewed as a commentary on how "weak" light mechs are.
Also I really like the -2H I saw in SideStrafe's stream. AC/5 and 2xLRM-5, 2xML. Nice overwatch/sniper style 'mech. I really want to find something I can slap 2xAC/2 and 2xLRM-5 on, ideally also with a ML or two, for back up. I feel like that'd be a really solid sniper mech.
So, I’ve only watched streams but it seems like you lose one pip of evasion per attack regardless of the nature of the attack.
One LRM 5 pack being fired at you costs you as much evasion as a salvo of 12 medium lasers.
If this is accurate, really seems like something to anchor mech designs and strategies around.
That is accurate. The trick, though, is that the more things are being thrown at the mech at any given stage, the more chances you have to hit. So when the hit chance is lower (via more pips), you want to throw missiles because you're gonna get more chances to pierce the evasion. Then a pip comes off. Now you throw lasers, since yeah you've got a bunch, but even a Hunchie -4P isn't gonna have as many chances as a Kintaro or even a ShadowHawk -2H. Now, if you've used Sensor Lock and organized your fire line, the mech shouldn't have more than 2 pips, so your -Wang is way more likely to core it, not just from better hit chance, but you've also stripped off a whole mess of armor from all over the place, so even a side torso hit may transfer enough damage to crit something in the CT.
This is, of course, how you use an entire lance to take down a light mech in (hopefully) a single round. That's a lot of force commitment and should not be viewed as a commentary on how "weak" light mechs are.
Also I really like the -2H I saw in SideStrafe's stream. AC/5 and 2xLRM-5, 2xML. Nice overwatch/sniper style 'mech. I really want to find something I can slap 2xAC/2 and 2xLRM-5 on, ideally also with a ML or two, for back up. I feel like that'd be a really solid sniper mech.
Do you need to actually connect to remove an evasion pip? My impression was the attack, hit or miss, removed one pip.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I backed the Battletech game as soon as I heard of it, and stopped caring about streamers getting a build the moment I found out they were partial builds. I've had beta access since forever and decided to just wait, I'd infinitely rather wait for the complete game than have multiple replays of incomplete sections of the game.
The only concern I would have is that it seems a game with enough tactical and strategic complexity that streaming it may not give people the sort of instant "I must play that!" that other games got popular with. I'd hate to see HBS' efforts negatively impacted because of the fickle nature of streaming games as advertisement.
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NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
I backed the Battletech game as soon as I heard of it, and stopped caring about streamers getting a build the moment I found out they were partial builds. I've had beta access since forever and decided to just wait, I'd infinitely rather wait for the complete game than have multiple replays of incomplete sections of the game.
The only concern I would have is that it seems a game with enough tactical and strategic complexity that streaming it may not give people the sort of instant "I must play that!" that other games got popular with. I'd hate to see HBS' efforts negatively impacted because of the fickle nature of streaming games as advertisement.
This is actually why I'm super happy that Paradox picked up the publishing duties. Their core audience is nothing but people that want to play 600-hour strategic games.
Turn sequence manipulation and focusing fire seems like they are going to be the two most important aspects of this game. Focus fire is pretty typical for most turnbased games, but knocking out key weapon systems can be a huge swing, or even better just killing a mech. Couple this with the evasion chit and stability system and two things become true.
1. As more of your units attack a single enemy, the more accurate your attacks become and the more likely you are to knock them down: so focus fire.
2. The more of your units get turns after a single enemy, the more accurate your attacks become, as they will not be able to generate more evasion chits until they move again. This means you should delay all units until the enemy you want to destroy acts.
This brings me to the concern of: if the AI is bad this game will just become a rinse, wash, repeat cycle of delay until one enemy mech approaches too close, and then your entire lance pounces on and devours them.
Of course I haven’t actually played the game, just watched streams, so take this all with a huge grain of salt. I’m mostly just going stir crazy waiting for the game to release.
On the plus side it does mean the derpy canon builds that mount one lrm5 might actually be okay now because an out of position mech stripping one evasion pip and causing a little stability damage to the turns focus fire target might be a pretty useful contribution.
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NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
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Other than that, that all looks like bare minimum decent game design for a modern game. Which is already a lot more effort than I would've expected out of PGI, so hey, maybe this thing won't actually be a total waste of time.
Mech_Con attendees thought the game played fine, though the AI was a bit busted on the build they played. Still, PGI has had 4 months to work on it since then and another 7-8 until release if they make their 2018 deadline.
I'm not really that concerned about the AI being mediocre as long as the combat feels good. My biggest concern for MW5 is whether PGI can get the feel of the campaign right. A lot of what they've shown so far is clearly inspired by the XCOM reboot, and Russ has stated that MW2:Mercs is one of his favorite games, which is encouraging. They've also got HBS's Battletech to take lessons from when that comes out.
Didn't they announce that from way back when they revealed that they were working on MW5? I seem to remember that with the first Shadow Hawk footage they released from a year or two (or whenever it was)(edit: just checked, it was a year) back.
An odd sentiment since $50+ backers got beta access 8 months ago.
AFAIK all of those people were also backers. Most of them above the $50 level, from what I can tell.
e: but hey I can PayPal you $40 for your copy if you want.
He also doesn't understand combat order (how many times has he used his AC20 mech to attack before his laser/SRM mech?) or how to effectively minimize enemy firepower. Or the concept of falling back. And keeps forgetting to move his mechs.
His jumpy panther PPC mech is a pretty good build, as is his AC20 Centurion mech. But the rest are kind of built oddly, and used oddly (but not as badly as the early days of "Lets scout with our overgunned Sniper mech").
To be fair though, this is the 3025 universe, so the overarmored mech isn't quite as dead as it would have been 25 years later, in a universe filled with Railguns, Ultra ACs, Clan PPCs, HAGs and stuff.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
To be fair, HAG's are closer to 50 years off.
In @Buttcleft defense, the beta we played was nothing like what the streamers are playing now. It was fun, but no mechlab or story to try out. It was just bare bones 4v4 battles with prebuilt mechs. Yes, we could change the builds by playing with files, but nothing really close to what the streamers have now.
Myself, I just will wait for the game and ignore streamers for games. Sort of like the old days when you just saw magazine pictures and articles then waited patiently for the game to eventually come out to try out yourself.
Plus this game, no matter how bad, will still be fun for me.
Steam: betsuni7
Oh no, two parties are engaging in a mutually beneficial relationship? Woe is me? The sky, she is falling?
And to be honest, giving the game to established streamers who don't know the game well, so people can learn alongside them, is probably a lot better for the game than giving it to a skilled nobody who makes the game seem intimidating and complex by instantly launching into well developed tactics.
Edit:
Wait, don't you want to attack with your ac20 mech before your laser/srm mech? Or have they changed this from tabletop? Or are you saying that he rarely attacks in this (correct) order of big single hit guns before small multi hit guns.
Judging from the beta videos I've watched (I kickstarted at the "Watch Nips play" level, so no personal experience), hitting with an AC20 first then multiple lasers means the lasers will most likely distribute their damage across multiple different sections, possibly including the section that had been hit by the AC20.
Doing it the other way means the lasers distributed damage weakens more sections, increasing the likelihood that the AC20 is going to hit weakened armor and deal massive damage.
But I could be wrong here.
In tabletop it is hit with ac20 first to expose internals on a section, then hit with multiple small damage hits, as each hit on an exposed internal has the same odds of causing a critical.
This could easily be changed for the videogame though.
man they're not getting an (early, incomplete) version of the game for being number one best fans forever. It's because they're successful streamers/LPers in this genre, with established audiences. CohhCarnage gets thousands and thousands of people watching when he streams and he has a referral link to GOG on all of his videos; it's probably not a coincidence that Battletech hit #1 on GOG last week.
It's marketing, and that shit matters. It's important. There are lots of strategy gamers out there who could become Battletech fans if they get turned on to the game in the right way, and there are still Battletech fans who don't even know the game exists. Streamers are just another advertising vector, like banners and youtube spots, to help get the word out.
Some dudes are mad that they're not getting first crack but it's like, a) that was never ever ever the promise from day 1, and b) frankly I don't want some of the hardcore Battletech fans out there being the game's ambassadors to the world. Some of them are giant assholes. Some of them are worse than assholes. There are guys on the official forums with names like LightningSS or whatever and I'm just like oh jesus god please never talk about this game where a normal person will see.
Ultimately, I want this game to do well, because I want expansions and sequels and generally way more stuff than will just be in this game. I want a Hatchetman and a Rifleman, I want a full-on Battletech RPG where in between missions you go attend a fancy ball and use your persuasion skill to unmask the assassin at the party, I want a wargame where we move companies and regiments across the IS. I wouldn't want some dorkus messing that up for me.
If I recall, the argument would be if you theoretically hit a location multiple times, enough to strip armor but don't do enough damage to destroy it, it's better if you can strip the armor with a big hit first because the small followup hits would hit internals and can each roll for a crit. If the small hits come first, the final big hit can only roll once for a crit.
But I just got bugged that Padre got ticked off about a decision and people jumped on him. I don't always agree with Padre, but I do respect his opinion.
Also the marketing choice the company made is a good way to show off their game to potential buyers. But it can also backfire by turning people off thinking the game isn't good because the streamers do not show off the best of what the game could be.
Just saying... Sorry to ruffle people the wrong way with my comments.
Edit: Also I forgot that some of us learned that Padre can be a bit overly dramatic sometimes. Then shoot you in the back with machine guns. Or in one case a full alpha "by mistake".
Steam: betsuni7
Or just right :twisted:
@DaMoonRulz Oh man, Chris has been streaming the game? I gotta see this.
Also I really, really wanna volunteer as an OpFor for DFA. I live in the area and when I'm home I have all the time ever. I'd even show up in Oosik uniform
On the flipside, their games, at least to me, are more about the weird shit that happens while playing the games than about actually winning or losing. I get way more vested in the side research in Stellaris than with the actual conquering the galaxy bit.
Re: MW5 destruction trailer. I'm not gonna lie, I was kinda smiling at how cheesey that trailer felt but for Mechwarrior, that sorta cheese is the finest kind of cheese.
Unless this is one of those rules that got revamped, ammo explosions, while wrecking the 'Mech, aren't generally fatal to the pilot. Although explosions do 2 damage to the pilot, they also usually take the 'Mech out of the game, so unless the pilot was badly hurt to begin with they'll just take the damage and peace out. CASE specifically doesn't prevent this damage, though.
Chiding someone for being overly negative is far preferable to shitting on someone's positivity. It seems every time I express any kind of enthusiasm for MW5 I get hit with a barrage of "blah blah fuck PGI", which is incredibly grating.
Years from now a fan will gush about how much they enjoy shooting down helicopters before closing with that classic line,
"Furthermore, I consider that PGI must be destroyed."
Because of the way evasion works. The laser/SRM mech saturates shit. It's perfectly fine to make a risky shot since you fire enough projectiles that it's just a bit less damage. For a mech that fires 4 lasers and 12 missiles it's OK to miss with a couple of them. However, with the AC20 you need to risk minimize. Either you hit (and then you hit hard) or you don't hit, and that gives your opponents a huge advantage since they're suddenly up alot in the damage race.
The bigger the gamble, the more you should hedge your bets.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
EDIT:
Steam profile.
Getting started with BATTLETECH: Part 1 / Part 2
NGNG I get. The others? I don't follow many streamers (old man here), so it feels like HBS picked a bunch of randoms. Someone help me out here.
A dirty white tank top, yesterday’s boxer shorts, and a hangover?
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Oh yes, their new evasion chit system where your ability to evade degrades with the number of attacks launched at you. (I think this does make for a more tactically interesting game but does make the light mech lover in me slightly sad.)
This actually puts you in an interesting decision space:
Optimal damage is few high damage attacks followed by multiple low damage attacks.
Optimal accuracy is multiple low damage attacks followed by few high damage attacks.
Deciding what situation calls for what approach should be fun.
Cohh’s streams had 20k+ people watching live and his YouTube vods of those streams have cracked 100k views. And it’s a whole bunch of “I love this game, this is great.” That stuff is super effective advertising. It doesn’t matter that he’s not great right off the bat. It’s about watching someone figure out the systems and learn, which is going to involve people committing mech crimes out of ignorance.
Going in with a whole bunch of gatekeeping nonsense does the game no favors. If we want sequels with more robust feature sets and all of the lovely things that we want, we need the people who are new to the franchise.
I don't know if it's what got him picked (it seemed like it was his sponsor relationship with GoG maybe?), but he was also a super backer - like at the flight jacket level. To the extent that there's a fairness issue letting a streamer in early (which I don't think there really is because marketing?), he was already committed to the game long before the opportunity to stream it came about.
Steam profile.
Getting started with BATTLETECH: Part 1 / Part 2
I know Cohh and Chris were actually picked by GoG as part of their partnered marketing push with Paradox
NGNG was obviously picked by HBS
Sidestrafe I’m not sure about
Dress uniform, just to keep things classy.
That means the clean tank top, and a half full flask tucked into the boxer shorts waistband.
Sorry, I wasn't talking direct damage. Without CASE, an ammo explosion can spread to the center torso and core the mech which as I recall then made for a rather low percentage roll to successfully eject.
One LRM 5 pack being fired at you costs you as much evasion as a salvo of 12 medium lasers.
If this is accurate, really seems like something to anchor mech designs and strategies around.
That is accurate. The trick, though, is that the more things are being thrown at the mech at any given stage, the more chances you have to hit. So when the hit chance is lower (via more pips), you want to throw missiles because you're gonna get more chances to pierce the evasion. Then a pip comes off. Now you throw lasers, since yeah you've got a bunch, but even a Hunchie -4P isn't gonna have as many chances as a Kintaro or even a ShadowHawk -2H. Now, if you've used Sensor Lock and organized your fire line, the mech shouldn't have more than 2 pips, so your -Wang is way more likely to core it, not just from better hit chance, but you've also stripped off a whole mess of armor from all over the place, so even a side torso hit may transfer enough damage to crit something in the CT.
This is, of course, how you use an entire lance to take down a light mech in (hopefully) a single round. That's a lot of force commitment and should not be viewed as a commentary on how "weak" light mechs are.
Also I really like the -2H I saw in SideStrafe's stream. AC/5 and 2xLRM-5, 2xML. Nice overwatch/sniper style 'mech. I really want to find something I can slap 2xAC/2 and 2xLRM-5 on, ideally also with a ML or two, for back up. I feel like that'd be a really solid sniper mech.
Also, if you do enough stability damage to make a mech unsteady, that removes all remaining evasion. An LRM boat might be a must-have for any lance.
Do you need to actually connect to remove an evasion pip? My impression was the attack, hit or miss, removed one pip.
The only concern I would have is that it seems a game with enough tactical and strategic complexity that streaming it may not give people the sort of instant "I must play that!" that other games got popular with. I'd hate to see HBS' efforts negatively impacted because of the fickle nature of streaming games as advertisement.
This is actually why I'm super happy that Paradox picked up the publishing duties. Their core audience is nothing but people that want to play 600-hour strategic games.
Turn sequence manipulation and focusing fire seems like they are going to be the two most important aspects of this game. Focus fire is pretty typical for most turnbased games, but knocking out key weapon systems can be a huge swing, or even better just killing a mech. Couple this with the evasion chit and stability system and two things become true.
1. As more of your units attack a single enemy, the more accurate your attacks become and the more likely you are to knock them down: so focus fire.
2. The more of your units get turns after a single enemy, the more accurate your attacks become, as they will not be able to generate more evasion chits until they move again. This means you should delay all units until the enemy you want to destroy acts.
This brings me to the concern of: if the AI is bad this game will just become a rinse, wash, repeat cycle of delay until one enemy mech approaches too close, and then your entire lance pounces on and devours them.
Of course I haven’t actually played the game, just watched streams, so take this all with a huge grain of salt. I’m mostly just going stir crazy waiting for the game to release.
On the plus side it does mean the derpy canon builds that mount one lrm5 might actually be okay now because an out of position mech stripping one evasion pip and causing a little stability damage to the turns focus fire target might be a pretty useful contribution.
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