Sure it is. It’s demoralising to “supporters” who want the impossible, and refuse to take any effort the Dems do as a betrayal. Despite the context that it is literally impossible for them to get what you want right now. They can’t snap their fingers and get the votes for this. Not being able to stop a stronger opposition is not a sign that they aren’t your allies.
Why is sticking to their guns for more than few hours or maintaining a level of rhetoric on par with their claimed policies desires "wanting the impossible"? Pretty big criticism of Dems there imo.
It’s not silliness, the Dems are not equal to the GOP in their operations. There is no left equiveksnt of Fox News.
This is just evasion. Fox News, or a lack of a liberal equivalent, has nothing to do with the Democrat's inability to get a cohesive message going into the shutdown. Their responsible for their own lack of strategic planning.
Nothing wrong with criticism, but this is not doing that. I’m honestly not sure what the Dems could do right now to get your loyalty or respect. Even if they did what you wanted.
I've spent pages saying, clearly, what I want them to be doing. Its all perfectly manageable.
edit: You know what, this isn't worth it. You've made it clear that anyone who's critical of the party is a far left extremist to you.
Sure it is. It’s demoralising to “supporters” who want the impossible, and refuse to take any effort the Dems do as a betrayal. Despite the context that it is literally impossible for them to get what you want right now. They can’t snap their fingers and get the votes for this. Not being able to stop a stronger opposition is not a sign that they aren’t your allies.
Why is sticking to their guns for more than few hours or maintaining a level of rhetoric on par with their claimed policies desires "wanting the impossible"? Pretty big criticism of Dems there imo.
Because ultimately it won't work. It risks alienating left voters in the coalition, and people are going to angry when their lives are affected or destroyed by it. I don't know why you keep on assuming the Dems can win this thing like the only thing stopping them is because they simply --- don't want to? You're completely ignoring the GOP shaped elephant in the room.
This is just evasion. Fox News, or a lack of a liberal equivalent, has nothing to do with the Democrat's inability to get a cohesive message going into the shutdown. Their responsible for their own lack of strategic planning.
You don't think how much influence the GOP has over the media, and lack thereof for Dems is going to affect how they're going to appeal to the public on issues like DACA? Fox News is a huge advantage for the GOP over framing causes like this. They're experts at it, and have been building up a solid network for decades. Strategic planning is a long shot when the opponents holds a better hand. They're not going up against a bunch of amateur's here, they're fighting the most powerful right wing political party in the world. Plus, they have the president, who has veto power and the VP.
I've spent pages saying, clearly, what I want them to be doing. Its all perfectly manageable.
No, it's not. They could do everything you're outlined and 99% of the time will end up where we are right now, then they'll get blamed for losing. What you're proposing is not guaranteed to settle this as you want it to.
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
I get the argument that this might not be 'worth fighting' because of the political costs involved, and may make sense when you view it from that lens, but I feel like the majority of the liberal base probably aren't going to be thinking very much about that. Most people do not think about politics like some of us do.
Most people are thinking about their immediate issues and needs, and that is not an invalid way of thinking. Mexican people don't want persecution via the immigration policy of the USA, they want their loved ones to be safe and have a means to come over. If anyone faults them for not setting all of that aside in the name of the strategy game that us US Politics, that's really messed up.
Republicans only needed Democrat support to pass the budget because they assumed it would be less painful than what they would need to do to get their caucus in line. And turns out they were right, all they needed to give up was a nothing promise for a nothing vote that everyone knew was nothing when they agreed to it. Democrats caving in less than a weekend, their refusal to fight in the face of 800,000 Americans being removed from their homes and kicked out of the country is a red line for me. If the Republicans can't get their own party in line to pass a budget when they control both chambers and the Presidency, then make them actually give something up in exchange for cooperation. Capitulating here means that whenever the Democrats retake power will be too late to do anything for 800,000 Americans.
Republicans only needed Democrat support to pass the budget because they assumed it would be less painful than what they would need to do to get their caucus in line. And turns out they were right, all they needed to give up was a nothing promise for a nothing vote that everyone knew was nothing when they agreed to it. Democrats caving in less than a weekend, their refusal to fight in the face of 800,000 Americans being removed from their homes and kicked out of the country is a red line for me. If the Republicans can't get their own party in line to pass a budget when they control both chambers and the Presidency, then make them actually give something up in exchange for cooperation. Capitulating here means that whenever the Democrats retake power will be too late to do anything for 800,000 Americans.
You're assuming that continuing the shutdown would have gotten somewhere. You'll need to provide support for that argument.
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Things I agree with:
-Democratic leadership should message better and be angrier
-Democrats should have held the shutdown longer and tried to force not just a vote but passage
Things I don’t agree with:
-Leadership just doesn’t care enough about DACA
-Democrats should shut down again
All of which comes back to the fact that voters in the center, including voters driven by broad media coverage, are uncomfortable with hostage taking and also uncomfortable with racial politics, while voters in the Dem party are split on hostage taking and split on how important DACA is to them.
So an all-out push on this issue is unlikely. Change the polticians, fine, but we have not yet won the argument on the ground.
-Democratic leadership should message better and be angrier
-Democrats should have held the shutdown longer and tried to force not just a vote but passage
Things I don’t agree with:
-Leadership just doesn’t care enough about DACA
-Democrats should shut down again
All of which comes back to the fact that voters in the center, including voters driven by broad media coverage, are uncomfortable with hostage taking and also uncomfortable with racial politics, while voters in the Dem party are split on hostage taking and split on how important DACA is to them.
So an all-out push on this issue is unlikely. Change the polticians, fine, but we have not yet won the argument on the ground.
On top of all this the situation in the House is still unchanged. The House is the biggest issue with any DACA fix and there's still no clear way to do anything about it.
The general shape of things there is that Ryan won't bring it up for a vote because it would destroy the GOP caucus and end his leadership. So they'll just do nothing.
If you assume that no amount of shutdown would be able to pass legislation with the current Congress, your options are reduced to "what will win in November?". I feel like a lot of people are assuming that there's some length of shutdown and other stuff that would get a racist POTUS and racist house majority (with a side of nutcases who think shutdowns are good) to allow it to pass.
Yes, the messaging has been poor. But realistically, nothing can be done to help these people before November, because all the power is held by racists right now. And frankly, as much as it sucks, I don't believe this is the most pressing issue facing the country (I direct your attention to the Mueller thread), or that it deserves to be the primary focus of the Democrats. I don't even know that it's in the top three.
Which loops back to "what wins in November", since that isn't necessarily the same as what the important issues are, but... even then I'm not sure. That's a complicated problem to which it feels like a lot of simple answers are being thrown out, and, well... you know how that goes.
Most people are thinking about their immediate issues and needs, and that is not an invalid way of thinking. Mexican people don't want persecution via the immigration policy of the USA, they want their loved ones to be safe and have a means to come over. If anyone faults them for not setting all of that aside in the name of the strategy game that us US Politics, that's really messed up.
Gonna clarify, 'cause that's not what I meant.
Most people don't think about stuff like this, to any great degree. They've got better things to do with their (limited) time and energy. Politics is not part of their daily lives.
But when something happens that forces them to consider an issue, most of them still don't think, not really. They definitely don't research the issue. Instead, they either go with their gut, their instincts, their feelings, or they find someone they trust to tell them what to think and do.
And thus we are ruled, largely, by passions, prejudices, and the persuasive. By people reacting, or following, and not thinking.
IMO.
edit: and of course, the powers that be - those who benefit from this - do what they can to keep it so.
Most people are thinking about their immediate issues and needs, and that is not an invalid way of thinking. Mexican people don't want persecution via the immigration policy of the USA, they want their loved ones to be safe and have a means to come over. If anyone faults them for not setting all of that aside in the name of the strategy game that us US Politics, that's really messed up.
It is when it's not balanced, going to deep into that leads to selfishness and self destruction*. No one is disagreeing with the Mexicans about that goal, the disagreement is over how to get there. Doing that relies entirely on utilizing politics, that's how politics is enacted all over the world. That's why congress and Trump's veto is a barrier to overcome, and how Trump is trying to deport the DACAs (and other immigration issues) in the first place. This is not a game, this is how you'll get what you want - but there are limits. Unless a cause has enough votes to pass through congress and overcome the veto of a hostile president there's not much to do until the next election time comes. I implore not to ignore how tough this issue is to accomplish politically.
edit: This is also why it's frustrating for me to see them protesting the Dems in this, when the real power behind the disaster is the GOP. Protesting the Dems isn't going to change the GOP's mind, it's going to divide the left and risks long term developments on this very issue and others in the future.
edit 2: To clarify, I'm not saying anyone doing this over DACA are selfish, this falls into the self destructive umbrella. I get being angry and disappointed with the Dems and there are things they could improve on, but this is not what's bene going on. Dems are being declared enemies for not winning an impossible situation, that's why the votes from last election were so important and the lack thereof is why the Dems aren't being able to save everyone as much as they'd like to. Blaming firemen for not being able to save your house from a fire is not going to help your cause, all it does is make enemies of friends and lets the real problem off the hook.
IMO, most of this is impotent frustration being vented. The Republicans are the ones who are actually to blame, but are untouchable; they hold all the cards and there's nothing we can actually do about that right now. ("Symbolically" is another matter, but symbols that are important to some are meaningless to others.) It also really doesn't help that the media seem willing to carry water for one party and take them at their word on everything, and blame everything on the other.
Go ahead and keep blowing off steam if it makes you feel better, but don't forget - if we're divided when opportunity for action comes, they win.
I’ve been thinking that an interesting ‘symbol’ for opposition to deporting the Dreamers would be the “Superman” logo.
Technically he would be considered a Dreamer, sent to America for a better life by his parents who werent citizens, spent his entire life living by American ideals and exemplified them.
On the other hand it may be too corporatist to be giving a company that much cash in merchandising for an issue like this.
CBP commissioner Kevin McAleenan was confirmed 77-19 today.
This good or bad?
Well he's popular on both sides of the isle and due to Republican absences was confirmed by Dems. He's been involved in Wall planning and will continue to be so. It signals that Dems are more or less happy letting CBP do business as usual.
No votes were a mix of Dem leftists and 2020 contenders.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited March 2018
The other problem with the spending bill is that there are at least a half dozen other critical areas that Dems and Republicans are fighting on. It is neither fair nor right that DACA and Dreamers get shoved to the side, nor women, nor healthcare in general, and so on. The basic problem we have now is that our government isn't actually operating very well, and pretending like Dems are the cause of that seems to be a missing forest for trees type situation.
Dem voters look for the smallest reason to justify not voting while GOP voters look for the smallest reason to justify voting. As long as this continues the Dem politicians will keep losing battles like these because no one has their backs. In the best case scenario they'll win office for one term and then promptly get voted out because they can't undo three decades worth of rightward movement in the span of a few years.
Pressure applied by the refusal to vote does not work on the minority party. They're already the minority party, all you're doing by refusing to vote is shrinking their numbers further, reducing their ability to do what you want. The GOP have effective counters to Dem pushes for DACA ready to deploy, which means the Dems cannot take action unless they either preemptively figure out a way to dodge those counters or figure out super-effective indisputable counters to those counters that are powerful enough they can cut through the right-wing media's spin. It sounds to me like you want to watch them throw themselves against the wall for your own amusement, like if they aren't bloody, beaten, and broken, you just won't believe they care about you.
The other problem with the spending bill is that there are at least a half dozen other critical areas that Dems and Republicans are fighting on. It is neither fair nor right that DACA and Dreamers get shoved to the side, nor women, nor healthcare in general, and so on. The basic problem we have now is that our government isn't actually operating very well, and pretending like Dems are the cause of that seems to be a missing forest for trees type situation.
The problem is, that's the message being taken away, and it's not really accurate.
I don't think anyone legitimately believes that it's the Democrats fault more than Republicans.
The reason why there is so much more volume directed at the Democrats, is that we know that volume CAN result in change that people want to see. If that volume were directed at Republicans, it's just shouting into the void. So protests, letter writing, phone calls, are going to go to the party that has the emotional capacity to see these people as actually human. Why waste your voice screaming at Republicans that will never move on the subject.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Dem voters look for the smallest reason to justify not voting while GOP voters look for the smallest reason to justify voting. As long as this continues the Dem politicians will keep losing battles like these because no one has their backs. In the best case scenario they'll win office for one term and then promptly get voted out because they can't undo three decades worth of rightward movement in the span of a few years.
Pressure applied by the refusal to vote does not work on the minority party. They're already the minority party, all you're doing by refusing to vote is shrinking their numbers further, reducing their ability to do what you want. The GOP have effective counters to Dem pushes for DACA ready to deploy, which means the Dems cannot take action unless they either preemptively figure out a way to dodge those counters or figure out super-effective indisputable counters to those counters that are powerful enough they can cut through the right-wing media's spin. It sounds to me like you want to watch them throw themselves against the wall for your own amusement, like if they aren't bloody, beaten, and broken, you just won't believe they care about you.
Maybe if the Democrats actually had values they held on to rather than abandon so willy-nilly they wouldn't have this problem.
Politicians serve us, we don't serve them. The idea that WE have to have THEIR back when they don't do much for the issues we face is abhorrent.
Politicians can't reasonably be expected to serve if the rug is going to always be pulled out from underneath them the second people like you don't have their unrealistic expectations filled within an unrealistic deadline. Without our support, the politicians cannot do what we want them to do. Currently the Dems are fighting against a Democratic voter base that said "we'd rather let the GOP who we know will fuck over the country in rather than vote for a Democrat who doesn't pass our purity test" and you constantly reinforce that behavior with your wailing and gnashing at the remaining Dem politicians for having the gall to behave like the 3-branch minority they actually are.
Democrats need to message better, granted it's difficult with how idiotic the media is.
Anyways, I don't think anyone reasonable expected so many of the GOP to be fucking morons that have decided they are subservient to Trump. I think most of use figured there were enough republicans from the more moderate wing, not to be confused with being moderate, that got the racist shit would eventually kill their party's rule and likely within the next decade. With Trump not being very popular and the Russian scandal, not permanently pissing the bed with Latinos and Hispanics for 2+ generations would have been high on the list. Now it doesn't appear there is enough votes to override Trump and Trump is really hellbent on doubling down on the racist shit weasel stuff. As for a shut down, the problem is it still wouldn't convinced the GOP to not fuck over Dreamers and a good chunk of the party wants the government shut down anyways because they are fucking morons that view the government as a problem, while you have a handful that don't want it functioning because it's still kind of preventing them from being Nazi fuckers that deny people their rights (yeah, it could use a ton of work).
So were at this shitty spot where there are no good cards. Pass a budget with nothing to help dreamers and a ton of people aren't happy and we have to pray that SCOTUS rules against Trump's bullshit. Cause a shutdown a ton of people aren't happy, except for the asshole racist crowd and a ton of morons. Only real option is to pass a budget and hope that SCOTUS tells Trump and his racist pals to go fuck themselves. This assumes a ruling happens before the next Congress gets seated or in the event that Nov isn't a wave against the GOP. Even if they pick up the Senate and the House, they may still not have enough votes to shut Trump's shit down. I mean always possible that the Trump admin ain't long for the world, but I doubt Pence or whichever republican we get is much better. I suppose the silver lining is we can go back to not letting the GOP piss away 25 billion on Trump's stupid ass monument to racism, when we have infrastructure and other programs that would be worth a damn (hell throwing 25 billion one dollar bills in barrels to keep hobos warm, would still be a bigger net positive to the nation, than Trump's stupid ass border wall).
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I don't belong to an organized political party; I'm a democrat.
As usual, the left spend their time in-fighting, while the right are in lock-step. To the surprise of, for some reason, many people, the left agenda never goes anywhere.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
800k lives are neither a "small reason" to justify judging the Democrats harshly, nor a "purity test" from the left of the party
And if the Republicans were so goddamned lockstep they wouldn't need Democratic votes to pass their budget
Again, "it doesn't look possible to win, better not try" is a pathetic message to send when you're literally giving up on 800k American lives
You guys desperately need a better voting system so you can vote for a Dem that stands up for DACA, whilst also voting for the Dem who doesn't quite get it if the first guy loses, rather than in effect letting the Republican win.
In the meantime, all you've got is direct democracy to get stuff done.
Probably a better plan to put the marches so they inconvenience the Repulicans rather than the Dems though.
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited March 2018
As much as I agree that everything that should be done should be done, and as much as I wish we lived in a world where we actually could have a unified left that was actually left, we don't live in that world and nothing we do immediately will change that aside from the slow shifting of cultural norms over time.
When your options are:
[people who generally try not to do harm, and occasionally do good]
versus
[people who want to deport/kill/otherwise make miserable everyone not them]
I don't see how the focus of your ire should be against the former group, nor do I see a point in not supporting it, as pragmatically it is your best bet not to be preyed upon by the latter.
I'm all for idealism, and for taking what options have a reasonable chance for success in changing our political spectrum. That doesn't happen at the national level. You get democrat or republican, or you vote third party Left and help republicans win or third party right and help democrats win. First past the post prevents any other outcome from succeeding by design.
Want to change politics? You have to do that locally. Get as many local and state reps as you can on your political spectrum, and slowly the states GOP or Democrats will start adjusting policies to match. If enough states change their stance on certain topics, then the national parties will start changing their stance to adjust to the changing demographics.
But sudden, sweeping change is literally not possible with our political system, and by its nature the institutional momentum of our political system makes sudden revolutionary changes equally unlikely due to the relative economic stability, citizen military, and diverse media narratives. The US system has a toxic banality problem which only changes slowly (and that is partially by design, partially by how our culture has matured).
Politicians serve themselves, in our government. They always have. The fact it is both high paying and career-based means that US politics is by no means public serving except where state and local laws provide grounds for it to be such. Believing otherwise is ignoring our history and actual legal framework at the national level.
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
That was not the problem. The point was that Dems were willing to give the wall for dACA, but Trump want fewer brown people in the Country, period. Because Dems refused on limiting legal immigration.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
That was not the problem. The point was that Dems were willing to give the wall for dACA, but Trump want fewer brown people in the Country, period. Because Dems refused on limiting legal immigration.
Per that Politico article though:
A trio of organizations supported by Charles and David Koch is urging Trump to accept congressional Democrats’ weekend offer, which would deliver $25 billion for a border wall and security in exchange for a pathway to citizenship for 1.8 million young immigrants, according to officials in the Koch network. The White House was unwilling to accept the deal, instead offering Democrats a two-and-a-half-year extension of protections for so-called Dreamers facing deportation in return for wall money and dropping their demands for cuts to legal immigration.
The Democrat's proposal is obviously better, but the WH counter-offer doesn't include a decrease in existing immigration. So if Trump absolutely won't budge on citizenship I'd be willing to settle for an extension that goes until January 21, 2021.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
I'm torn here.
On the one hand, Wall + 3 year covers us (hopefully) until Dems can retake.
On the other hand: definitely some Wall. I guess it depends on the actual funding is actually going to this idiocy, but it may also mean lots more OCE agents.
On the other hand, the Dems deal was path to citizenship or no wall. And I seem to recall that the "path" the GOP agreed to sucked ass. 12 years or something? And also Wall/ICE funds.
In both cases, we already know ICE wouldn't give a fuck about either DACA reform. Amd the new more certainly wouldn't make matter better.
I think I'd prefer neither. The courts seem to be covering the Dreamers. If we can hold the status quo until Jan and get a majority; that's optimal.
This budget will only cover FY18 right? Which means a new budget fight right before the election? If so: I don't want any deal with Wall/ICE funds short of Dreamer amnesty.
The other problem with the spending bill is that there are at least a half dozen other critical areas that Dems and Republicans are fighting on. It is neither fair nor right that DACA and Dreamers get shoved to the side, nor women, nor healthcare in general, and so on. The basic problem we have now is that our government isn't actually operating very well, and pretending like Dems are the cause of that seems to be a missing forest for trees type situation.
The problem is, that's the message being taken away, and it's not really accurate.
I don't think anyone legitimately believes that it's the Democrats fault more than Republicans.
The reason why there is so much more volume directed at the Democrats, is that we know that volume CAN result in change that people want to see. If that volume were directed at Republicans, it's just shouting into the void. So protests, letter writing, phone calls, are going to go to the party that has the emotional capacity to see these people as actually human. Why waste your voice screaming at Republicans that will never move on the subject.
Because the ACA vote shows that's not the case? Because that at it's heart doesn't make any sense? Because even if it did right now you can't win with just Dem votes ?
It's pretty fucking ridiculous to claim "we can't operate like the GOP, they vote in lockstep!" when Paul Ryan is basing every decision off of what will stop a GOP civil war from consuming him.
If you want to fix the DACA situation, you need to vote in more Democrats. That's it. That's the only possible solution. And no amount of being mad at what they are up to in Congress right now is gonna change that fact. Ya can vote in primaries right now to make your annoyance heard but there is only one course of action at the end of the day.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The Dems also offered up the wall for $25 billion in exchange for 1.8 million Dreamers getting the pathway to citizenship. Trump counters with $25 billion for 2 year extension to DACA. Koch Bros. wants Trump to take the Dems’ deal.
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
I'm torn here.
On the one hand, Wall + 3 year covers us (hopefully) until Dems can retake.
On the other hand: definitely some Wall. I guess it depends on the actual funding is actually going to this idiocy, but it may also mean lots more OCE agents.
On the other hand, the Dems deal was path to citizenship or no wall. And I seem to recall that the "path" the GOP agreed to sucked ass. 12 years or something? And also Wall/ICE funds.
In both cases, we already know ICE wouldn't give a fuck about either DACA reform. Amd the new more certainly wouldn't make matter better.
I think I'd prefer neither. The courts seem to be covering the Dreamers. If we can hold the status quo until Jan and get a majority; that's optimal.
This budget will only cover FY18 right? Which means a new budget fight right before the election? If so: I don't want any deal with Wall/ICE funds short of Dreamer amnesty.
Yeah, the courts are holding up the DACA so far, but as far as I can tell the only reason they're able to do so is because of the administration's incompetence; and while their incompetence has been flowing like an unending stream for the last year, I'm not exactly comfortable betting 800k lives against them finally getting their shit together for the all of ten minutes it would take to put together a valid executive order on this. Whether some of the wall funds could go towards more ICE agents is a worry. The wall is a non-starter: between the bidding process, graft, and lawsuits it's not going anywhere, more ICE agents OTOH are a direct increase in the harm caused to immigrant groups, so if there were a possibility that some (or worse, all) of that $25B could go towards a massive ramp-up in ICE activities... yeah, that's gonna be a problem.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
And other people would have s very different reaction to you on the wall.
The thing about the court case and DACA is Trump wants to pretend that he's not against it, because it is broadly popular. But that means he has to invent bullshit to get rid of it and that bullshit hurts him in court.
And other people would have s very different reaction to you on the wall.
The thing about the court case and DACA is Trump wants to pretend that he's not against it, because it is broadly popular. But that means he has to invent bullshit to get rid of it and that bullshit hurts him in court.
More importantly, if Trump just rescinds the EO, a Dem president can reinstate it. But, if the Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional, then is permanent.
Posts
This is just evasion. Fox News, or a lack of a liberal equivalent, has nothing to do with the Democrat's inability to get a cohesive message going into the shutdown. Their responsible for their own lack of strategic planning.
I've spent pages saying, clearly, what I want them to be doing. Its all perfectly manageable.
edit: You know what, this isn't worth it. You've made it clear that anyone who's critical of the party is a far left extremist to you.
Because ultimately it won't work. It risks alienating left voters in the coalition, and people are going to angry when their lives are affected or destroyed by it. I don't know why you keep on assuming the Dems can win this thing like the only thing stopping them is because they simply --- don't want to? You're completely ignoring the GOP shaped elephant in the room.
You don't think how much influence the GOP has over the media, and lack thereof for Dems is going to affect how they're going to appeal to the public on issues like DACA? Fox News is a huge advantage for the GOP over framing causes like this. They're experts at it, and have been building up a solid network for decades. Strategic planning is a long shot when the opponents holds a better hand. They're not going up against a bunch of amateur's here, they're fighting the most powerful right wing political party in the world. Plus, they have the president, who has veto power and the VP.
No, it's not. They could do everything you're outlined and 99% of the time will end up where we are right now, then they'll get blamed for losing. What you're proposing is not guaranteed to settle this as you want it to.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/19/koch-network-trump-democrats-immigration-472462?cid=apn
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
That is why we fail.
You're assuming that continuing the shutdown would have gotten somewhere. You'll need to provide support for that argument.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
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PSN: AbEntropy
-Democratic leadership should message better and be angrier
-Democrats should have held the shutdown longer and tried to force not just a vote but passage
Things I don’t agree with:
-Leadership just doesn’t care enough about DACA
-Democrats should shut down again
All of which comes back to the fact that voters in the center, including voters driven by broad media coverage, are uncomfortable with hostage taking and also uncomfortable with racial politics, while voters in the Dem party are split on hostage taking and split on how important DACA is to them.
So an all-out push on this issue is unlikely. Change the polticians, fine, but we have not yet won the argument on the ground.
On top of all this the situation in the House is still unchanged. The House is the biggest issue with any DACA fix and there's still no clear way to do anything about it.
The general shape of things there is that Ryan won't bring it up for a vote because it would destroy the GOP caucus and end his leadership. So they'll just do nothing.
If you assume that no amount of shutdown would be able to pass legislation with the current Congress, your options are reduced to "what will win in November?". I feel like a lot of people are assuming that there's some length of shutdown and other stuff that would get a racist POTUS and racist house majority (with a side of nutcases who think shutdowns are good) to allow it to pass.
Yes, the messaging has been poor. But realistically, nothing can be done to help these people before November, because all the power is held by racists right now. And frankly, as much as it sucks, I don't believe this is the most pressing issue facing the country (I direct your attention to the Mueller thread), or that it deserves to be the primary focus of the Democrats. I don't even know that it's in the top three.
Which loops back to "what wins in November", since that isn't necessarily the same as what the important issues are, but... even then I'm not sure. That's a complicated problem to which it feels like a lot of simple answers are being thrown out, and, well... you know how that goes.
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Gonna clarify, 'cause that's not what I meant.
Most people don't think about stuff like this, to any great degree. They've got better things to do with their (limited) time and energy. Politics is not part of their daily lives.
But when something happens that forces them to consider an issue, most of them still don't think, not really. They definitely don't research the issue. Instead, they either go with their gut, their instincts, their feelings, or they find someone they trust to tell them what to think and do.
And thus we are ruled, largely, by passions, prejudices, and the persuasive. By people reacting, or following, and not thinking.
IMO.
edit: and of course, the powers that be - those who benefit from this - do what they can to keep it so.
It is when it's not balanced, going to deep into that leads to selfishness and self destruction*. No one is disagreeing with the Mexicans about that goal, the disagreement is over how to get there. Doing that relies entirely on utilizing politics, that's how politics is enacted all over the world. That's why congress and Trump's veto is a barrier to overcome, and how Trump is trying to deport the DACAs (and other immigration issues) in the first place. This is not a game, this is how you'll get what you want - but there are limits. Unless a cause has enough votes to pass through congress and overcome the veto of a hostile president there's not much to do until the next election time comes. I implore not to ignore how tough this issue is to accomplish politically.
edit: This is also why it's frustrating for me to see them protesting the Dems in this, when the real power behind the disaster is the GOP. Protesting the Dems isn't going to change the GOP's mind, it's going to divide the left and risks long term developments on this very issue and others in the future.
edit 2: To clarify, I'm not saying anyone doing this over DACA are selfish, this falls into the self destructive umbrella. I get being angry and disappointed with the Dems and there are things they could improve on, but this is not what's bene going on. Dems are being declared enemies for not winning an impossible situation, that's why the votes from last election were so important and the lack thereof is why the Dems aren't being able to save everyone as much as they'd like to. Blaming firemen for not being able to save your house from a fire is not going to help your cause, all it does is make enemies of friends and lets the real problem off the hook.
This good or bad?
I’ve been thinking that an interesting ‘symbol’ for opposition to deporting the Dreamers would be the “Superman” logo.
Technically he would be considered a Dreamer, sent to America for a better life by his parents who werent citizens, spent his entire life living by American ideals and exemplified them.
On the other hand it may be too corporatist to be giving a company that much cash in merchandising for an issue like this.
MWO: Adamski
Well he's popular on both sides of the isle and due to Republican absences was confirmed by Dems. He's been involved in Wall planning and will continue to be so. It signals that Dems are more or less happy letting CBP do business as usual.
No votes were a mix of Dem leftists and 2020 contenders.
Pressure applied by the refusal to vote does not work on the minority party. They're already the minority party, all you're doing by refusing to vote is shrinking their numbers further, reducing their ability to do what you want. The GOP have effective counters to Dem pushes for DACA ready to deploy, which means the Dems cannot take action unless they either preemptively figure out a way to dodge those counters or figure out super-effective indisputable counters to those counters that are powerful enough they can cut through the right-wing media's spin. It sounds to me like you want to watch them throw themselves against the wall for your own amusement, like if they aren't bloody, beaten, and broken, you just won't believe they care about you.
I don't think anyone legitimately believes that it's the Democrats fault more than Republicans.
The reason why there is so much more volume directed at the Democrats, is that we know that volume CAN result in change that people want to see. If that volume were directed at Republicans, it's just shouting into the void. So protests, letter writing, phone calls, are going to go to the party that has the emotional capacity to see these people as actually human. Why waste your voice screaming at Republicans that will never move on the subject.
Politicians serve us, we don't serve them. The idea that WE have to have THEIR back when they don't do much for the issues we face is abhorrent.
Anyways, I don't think anyone reasonable expected so many of the GOP to be fucking morons that have decided they are subservient to Trump. I think most of use figured there were enough republicans from the more moderate wing, not to be confused with being moderate, that got the racist shit would eventually kill their party's rule and likely within the next decade. With Trump not being very popular and the Russian scandal, not permanently pissing the bed with Latinos and Hispanics for 2+ generations would have been high on the list. Now it doesn't appear there is enough votes to override Trump and Trump is really hellbent on doubling down on the racist shit weasel stuff. As for a shut down, the problem is it still wouldn't convinced the GOP to not fuck over Dreamers and a good chunk of the party wants the government shut down anyways because they are fucking morons that view the government as a problem, while you have a handful that don't want it functioning because it's still kind of preventing them from being Nazi fuckers that deny people their rights (yeah, it could use a ton of work).
So were at this shitty spot where there are no good cards. Pass a budget with nothing to help dreamers and a ton of people aren't happy and we have to pray that SCOTUS rules against Trump's bullshit. Cause a shutdown a ton of people aren't happy, except for the asshole racist crowd and a ton of morons. Only real option is to pass a budget and hope that SCOTUS tells Trump and his racist pals to go fuck themselves. This assumes a ruling happens before the next Congress gets seated or in the event that Nov isn't a wave against the GOP. Even if they pick up the Senate and the House, they may still not have enough votes to shut Trump's shit down. I mean always possible that the Trump admin ain't long for the world, but I doubt Pence or whichever republican we get is much better. I suppose the silver lining is we can go back to not letting the GOP piss away 25 billion on Trump's stupid ass monument to racism, when we have infrastructure and other programs that would be worth a damn (hell throwing 25 billion one dollar bills in barrels to keep hobos warm, would still be a bigger net positive to the nation, than Trump's stupid ass border wall).
Make it a three year extension and I'd vote for it. The wall is never going to get past the planning phase due to all the lawsuits, so throw as much money at that as you want. It's a waste, but a harmless one.
As usual, the left spend their time in-fighting, while the right are in lock-step. To the surprise of, for some reason, many people, the left agenda never goes anywhere.
And if the Republicans were so goddamned lockstep they wouldn't need Democratic votes to pass their budget
Again, "it doesn't look possible to win, better not try" is a pathetic message to send when you're literally giving up on 800k American lives
There's nothing to try other than just calling it quits on the country functioning at all.
At least not as it pertains to this proceeding
In the meantime, all you've got is direct democracy to get stuff done.
Probably a better plan to put the marches so they inconvenience the Repulicans rather than the Dems though.
When your options are:
[people who generally try not to do harm, and occasionally do good]
versus
[people who want to deport/kill/otherwise make miserable everyone not them]
I don't see how the focus of your ire should be against the former group, nor do I see a point in not supporting it, as pragmatically it is your best bet not to be preyed upon by the latter.
I'm all for idealism, and for taking what options have a reasonable chance for success in changing our political spectrum. That doesn't happen at the national level. You get democrat or republican, or you vote third party Left and help republicans win or third party right and help democrats win. First past the post prevents any other outcome from succeeding by design.
Want to change politics? You have to do that locally. Get as many local and state reps as you can on your political spectrum, and slowly the states GOP or Democrats will start adjusting policies to match. If enough states change their stance on certain topics, then the national parties will start changing their stance to adjust to the changing demographics.
But sudden, sweeping change is literally not possible with our political system, and by its nature the institutional momentum of our political system makes sudden revolutionary changes equally unlikely due to the relative economic stability, citizen military, and diverse media narratives. The US system has a toxic banality problem which only changes slowly (and that is partially by design, partially by how our culture has matured).
Politicians serve themselves, in our government. They always have. The fact it is both high paying and career-based means that US politics is by no means public serving except where state and local laws provide grounds for it to be such. Believing otherwise is ignoring our history and actual legal framework at the national level.
The GOP are not in perfect lock-step, but when compared to the Democrats…
That was not the problem. The point was that Dems were willing to give the wall for dACA, but Trump want fewer brown people in the Country, period. Because Dems refused on limiting legal immigration.
Per that Politico article though:
The Democrat's proposal is obviously better, but the WH counter-offer doesn't include a decrease in existing immigration. So if Trump absolutely won't budge on citizenship I'd be willing to settle for an extension that goes until January 21, 2021.
I'm torn here.
On the one hand, Wall + 3 year covers us (hopefully) until Dems can retake.
On the other hand: definitely some Wall. I guess it depends on the actual funding is actually going to this idiocy, but it may also mean lots more OCE agents.
On the other hand, the Dems deal was path to citizenship or no wall. And I seem to recall that the "path" the GOP agreed to sucked ass. 12 years or something? And also Wall/ICE funds.
In both cases, we already know ICE wouldn't give a fuck about either DACA reform. Amd the new more certainly wouldn't make matter better.
I think I'd prefer neither. The courts seem to be covering the Dreamers. If we can hold the status quo until Jan and get a majority; that's optimal.
This budget will only cover FY18 right? Which means a new budget fight right before the election? If so: I don't want any deal with Wall/ICE funds short of Dreamer amnesty.
Because the ACA vote shows that's not the case? Because that at it's heart doesn't make any sense? Because even if it did right now you can't win with just Dem votes ?
Yeah, the courts are holding up the DACA so far, but as far as I can tell the only reason they're able to do so is because of the administration's incompetence; and while their incompetence has been flowing like an unending stream for the last year, I'm not exactly comfortable betting 800k lives against them finally getting their shit together for the all of ten minutes it would take to put together a valid executive order on this. Whether some of the wall funds could go towards more ICE agents is a worry. The wall is a non-starter: between the bidding process, graft, and lawsuits it's not going anywhere, more ICE agents OTOH are a direct increase in the harm caused to immigrant groups, so if there were a possibility that some (or worse, all) of that $25B could go towards a massive ramp-up in ICE activities... yeah, that's gonna be a problem.
The thing about the court case and DACA is Trump wants to pretend that he's not against it, because it is broadly popular. But that means he has to invent bullshit to get rid of it and that bullshit hurts him in court.
More importantly, if Trump just rescinds the EO, a Dem president can reinstate it. But, if the Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional, then is permanent.
"Go big or go broke" is the name of the game.