Some of these are a bit more complicated than just bad booking but this still is a pretty big indictment on modern WWE.
If only the writing matched the talent level today this would without question be the greatest era ever. Oh well.
I was listening to that episode of The Attitude Era Podcast I posted earlier and Rhyno stood out as somebody who is currently suffering from WWE's shitty writing. When he first resurfaced in NXT he seemed like an absolute badass. It was like coming across a secret boss in a videogame. His presence lent credibility to Balor's main event push and the brand as a whole. Then he came up to main roster to achieve the same stuff for Smackdown and for a while it worked. Then they started having him make jokes and forgot to make him serious when it matters. Eventually this lead to Rhyno and by association Slater disappearing from TV because hey...those guys aren't serious characters who matter.
Some of these are a bit more complicated than just bad booking but this still is a pretty big indictment on modern WWE.
If only the writing matched the talent level today this would without question be the greatest era ever. Oh well.
I was listening to that episode of The Attitude Era Podcast I posted earlier and Rhyno stood out as somebody who is currently suffering from WWE's shitty writing. When he first resurfaced in NXT he seemed like an absolute badass. It was like coming across a secret boss in a videogame. His presence lent credibility to Balor's main event push and the brand as a whole. Then he came up to main roster to achieve the same stuff for Smackdown and for a while it worked. Then they started having him make jokes and forgot to make him serious when it matters. Eventually this lead to Rhyno and by association Slater disappearing from TV because hey...those guys aren't serious characters who matter.
I wonder if this is one of those things that is an issue with the WWE's fanaticism about, well, the last letter in the acronym? They fall back on jokes so quickly for so many characters, because every segment has to be "entertaining", that they forget that like, audiences appreciate serious stories/characters too, just in different ways.
So professionally, I speak for a living. About history specifically, but that's not important for the point I'm about to make, except that it acknowledges that things can, and indeed have to be, serious sometimes. At my first job in this field, one of our trainers has a spiel he frequently makes, about how it's very easy to fall back on making too many jokes in your presentations because it's much easier to gauge your audience's reactions if they're being audible, and the most common audible reaction is laughter. Basically the ultimate 'punchline' of his thing is that if you stop being serious and telling actual history, and only tell jokes to get that laughter, you are no longer a historian, you're a clown.
I think you can translate that to a medium like WWE too. And it's not just laughter and jokes, it's chants, it's catchphrases, it's cheap heat or pops, whatever. They fall back on those quick moments of reaction because they don't know how to tell longer-form, slower-build stories it sometimes seems. I have to believe Vince probably starts shouting at people if the audience is quiet for five minutes. But the jokes particularly, because they're so branded and built around being "entertainment", really ruin so many characters - and not just the characters that tell them, but the characters (like Cena) who make jokes about characters who should be viewed seriously.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
Maybe things change if WWE gets severely financially hit when their TV deal expires in 2019.
Maybe. I mean companies have stuck to shitty business practices till their end or rode outdated business models into the ground.
"It'll all change when they get financially hit or it'll all change when Vince dies, etc..."
We can guess/hope all we want but the reality is we don't know if it will ever change until it does. Or doesn't.
Some of these are a bit more complicated than just bad booking but this still is a pretty big indictment on modern WWE.
If only the writing matched the talent level today this would without question be the greatest era ever. Oh well.
I was listening to that episode of The Attitude Era Podcast I posted earlier and Rhyno stood out as somebody who is currently suffering from WWE's shitty writing. When he first resurfaced in NXT he seemed like an absolute badass. It was like coming across a secret boss in a videogame. His presence lent credibility to Balor's main event push and the brand as a whole. Then he came up to main roster to achieve the same stuff for Smackdown and for a while it worked. Then they started having him make jokes and forgot to make him serious when it matters. Eventually this lead to Rhyno and by association Slater disappearing from TV because hey...those guys aren't serious characters who matter.
I wonder if this is one of those things that is an issue with the WWE's fanaticism about, well, the last letter in the acronym? They fall back on jokes so quickly for so many characters, because every segment has to be "entertaining", that they forget that like, audiences appreciate serious stories/characters too, just in different ways.
So professionally, I speak for a living. About history specifically, but that's not important for the point I'm about to make, except that it acknowledges that things can, and indeed have to be, serious sometimes. At my first job in this field, one of our trainers has a spiel he frequently makes, about how it's very easy to fall back on making too many jokes in your presentations because it's much easier to gauge your audience's reactions if they're being audible, and the most common audible reaction is laughter. Basically the ultimate 'punchline' of his thing is that if you stop being serious and telling actual history, and only tell jokes to get that laughter, you are no longer a historian, you're a clown.
I think you can translate that to a medium like WWE too. And it's not just laughter and jokes, it's chants, it's catchphrases, it's cheap heat or pops, whatever. They fall back on those quick moments of reaction because they don't know how to tell longer-form, slower-build stories it sometimes seems. I have to believe Vince probably starts shouting at people if the audience is quiet for five minutes. But the jokes particularly, because they're so branded and built around being "entertainment", really ruin so many characters - and not just the characters that tell them, but the characters (like Cena) who make jokes about characters who should be viewed seriously.
It just feels like their writing team is in this constant, almost nihilistic, crisis mode. Like, they've got an attitude of "why plan more than a week in advance because someone's ACL is going to disintegrate and ruin everything." That, combined with the let's say "mercurial" nature of the man at the top of the org chart hamstring any long-term plotting they might want to do.
Don't be silly he'd have worn the full Parka outfit.
He had it on under his clothes. Walked out the Cirkle K, turned a corner, yanked off the sweater and jeans and strutted away whistling. Thief, what thief? I'm just a totally regular La Parka.
Thank you for providing me this material. In November I'm gonna photoshop theater logos and movie posters to make it look like AJ just snuck out of the theater after having successfully watched the shitty Death Wish remake
Some of these are a bit more complicated than just bad booking but this still is a pretty big indictment on modern WWE.
If only the writing matched the talent level today this would without question be the greatest era ever. Oh well.
I was listening to that episode of The Attitude Era Podcast I posted earlier and Rhyno stood out as somebody who is currently suffering from WWE's shitty writing. When he first resurfaced in NXT he seemed like an absolute badass. It was like coming across a secret boss in a videogame. His presence lent credibility to Balor's main event push and the brand as a whole. Then he came up to main roster to achieve the same stuff for Smackdown and for a while it worked. Then they started having him make jokes and forgot to make him serious when it matters. Eventually this lead to Rhyno and by association Slater disappearing from TV because hey...those guys aren't serious characters who matter.
I wonder if this is one of those things that is an issue with the WWE's fanaticism about, well, the last letter in the acronym? They fall back on jokes so quickly for so many characters, because every segment has to be "entertaining", that they forget that like, audiences appreciate serious stories/characters too, just in different ways.
So professionally, I speak for a living. About history specifically, but that's not important for the point I'm about to make, except that it acknowledges that things can, and indeed have to be, serious sometimes. At my first job in this field, one of our trainers has a spiel he frequently makes, about how it's very easy to fall back on making too many jokes in your presentations because it's much easier to gauge your audience's reactions if they're being audible, and the most common audible reaction is laughter. Basically the ultimate 'punchline' of his thing is that if you stop being serious and telling actual history, and only tell jokes to get that laughter, you are no longer a historian, you're a clown.
I think you can translate that to a medium like WWE too. And it's not just laughter and jokes, it's chants, it's catchphrases, it's cheap heat or pops, whatever. They fall back on those quick moments of reaction because they don't know how to tell longer-form, slower-build stories it sometimes seems. I have to believe Vince probably starts shouting at people if the audience is quiet for five minutes. But the jokes particularly, because they're so branded and built around being "entertainment", really ruin so many characters - and not just the characters that tell them, but the characters (like Cena) who make jokes about characters who should be viewed seriously.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure that the WWE's audience actually wants long-form storytelling either. In this age of social media, reactions tend to be knee-jerk. Say a wrestler loses a match as part of a longer storyline (example: the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth storyline from last year). Back in the day, you'd only have the crowd's reaction to go on for about 24+ hours. The dirtsheets would react a day or so later, and wrestling forums would be isolated pockets of opinions. Now, if they make a booking decision that they see as valuable to a story but a portion of the audience does not, the tsunami of vitriol is instantaneous thanks to Twitter.
So maybe they gave up. The Twitter fans continuously demonstrate that they only talk about moments, so why not give them only moments? Turns out the WWE does listen to the fans on social media. They just took the worst lesson from them.
As for the entertainment aspect of wrestling, they need fewer jokes and more physical in-ring comedy, especially if it's presented with a straight face.
Literally everything Daniel Bryan has said about wrestling after retiring and when he came back after dropping the World Title has heavily pointed at him valuing wrestling over his own well being and I do not trust his word one bit regarding how well he is to get back in the ring
I mean the last time we had Bryan comment on returning was when he came back before Mania 31 and insisted he would work a much safer style and then proceeded to immediately get into Headbutt Contests with Ziggler and Sheamus
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
Daniel Bryan manages to land on his head and neck while doing his corner dropkicks.
Miz manages to do those same corner dropkicks and not land on his head and neck.
Daniel Bryan has a ton of fire wrapped inside of a paper mache shell and it's a tragedy in the making.
Some of these are a bit more complicated than just bad booking but this still is a pretty big indictment on modern WWE.
If only the writing matched the talent level today this would without question be the greatest era ever. Oh well.
I was listening to that episode of The Attitude Era Podcast I posted earlier and Rhyno stood out as somebody who is currently suffering from WWE's shitty writing. When he first resurfaced in NXT he seemed like an absolute badass. It was like coming across a secret boss in a videogame. His presence lent credibility to Balor's main event push and the brand as a whole. Then he came up to main roster to achieve the same stuff for Smackdown and for a while it worked. Then they started having him make jokes and forgot to make him serious when it matters. Eventually this lead to Rhyno and by association Slater disappearing from TV because hey...those guys aren't serious characters who matter.
I wonder if this is one of those things that is an issue with the WWE's fanaticism about, well, the last letter in the acronym? They fall back on jokes so quickly for so many characters, because every segment has to be "entertaining", that they forget that like, audiences appreciate serious stories/characters too, just in different ways.
So professionally, I speak for a living. About history specifically, but that's not important for the point I'm about to make, except that it acknowledges that things can, and indeed have to be, serious sometimes. At my first job in this field, one of our trainers has a spiel he frequently makes, about how it's very easy to fall back on making too many jokes in your presentations because it's much easier to gauge your audience's reactions if they're being audible, and the most common audible reaction is laughter. Basically the ultimate 'punchline' of his thing is that if you stop being serious and telling actual history, and only tell jokes to get that laughter, you are no longer a historian, you're a clown.
I think you can translate that to a medium like WWE too. And it's not just laughter and jokes, it's chants, it's catchphrases, it's cheap heat or pops, whatever. They fall back on those quick moments of reaction because they don't know how to tell longer-form, slower-build stories it sometimes seems. I have to believe Vince probably starts shouting at people if the audience is quiet for five minutes. But the jokes particularly, because they're so branded and built around being "entertainment", really ruin so many characters - and not just the characters that tell them, but the characters (like Cena) who make jokes about characters who should be viewed seriously.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure that the WWE's audience actually wants long-form storytelling either. In this age of social media, reactions tend to be knee-jerk. Say a wrestler loses a match as part of a longer storyline (example: the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth storyline from last year). Back in the day, you'd only have the crowd's reaction to go on for about 24+ hours. The dirtsheets would react a day or so later, and wrestling forums would be isolated pockets of opinions. Now, if they make a booking decision that they see as valuable to a story but a portion of the audience does not, the tsunami of vitriol is instantaneous thanks to Twitter.
So maybe they gave up. The Twitter fans continuously demonstrate that they only talk about moments, so why not give them only moments? Turns out the WWE does listen to the fans on social media. They just took the worst lesson from them.
I think clearly they do want long form storytelling, because they've given Roman a tonne of moments and it isn't working. They gave Bayley a moment and the crowd is turning on her because it was a completely idiotic time and decision to do that moment and ignored what was a perfect storytelling opportunity. Not everything needs to be epic, but the point about Ryhno is a valid one, you had two underdogs rising to the top, then Ryhno had a kind of one week heel turn then went back to comedy stuff. Which the guy might not mind, he seems nice, and it pays the bills, but from a storytelling point your former tag champs are now joke jobbers.
I might be misremembering and maybe it was shorter than I think, but DX V Austin was great long form storytelling, a constant uphill battle of one man vs an entire group of competent people that culminated in a fantastic title match that the crowd were invested in. Or even Daniel Bryan's story, which wasn't so much storytelling as fluke, but it led to one of those Eddie Guerrero, or Chris Benoit feel good moments at the top of the show where they make it big.
There is a new epic story to be told between now and Mania, of a superstar who can't get that opportunity, because the authority is against him, because the current champ is holding him back or a faction is in his way, but he makes it through a condition match or wins the Rumble against overwhelming odds (and is someone the crowd will go nuts for winning), and then has to fight his way through to Mania to crown a new superstar.
It seems more like WWE is lazy than the audience just don't like following a story for more than a week. They've been following Fashion Peaks.
The current audience having no patience is a valid argument.
I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular
It's not even a "funny don't draw money" thing, which is hard to believe because all the most well thought out plattitudes rhyme. There are a lot of acts in other companies that are primarily comedic but they know when to hit those serious moments.
It's not even a "funny don't draw money" thing, which is hard to believe because all the most well thought out plattitudes rhyme. There are a lot of acts in other companies that are primarily comedic but they know when to hit those serious moments.
Or exhibit A in the WWE, the New Day. They largely became popular because of how funny they were and their chemistry together, on top of in-ring skill.
I think there is a difference between being funny, and being a joke. The New Day are funny, but they also win and do so effectively and competently where most joke teams will lose to silly distractions and quick rollups. Breeze dressing up as a janitor and tripping up opponents is funny, but on a regular basis it makes both teams look weak, Breezango for not taking it seriously and the other team for pratfalling.
The whole "WWE creative can't do long term booking because it's paranoid about injuries" theory wouldn't even matter if Vince just fucking protected his talent better in terms of wins and losses.
Which is why the wins and losses don't matter booking philosophy needs to die.
I'm going to bet Hunter is saying that not to ruffle feathers. He doesn't have that mindset for NXT.
I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
edited September 2017
Wins and losses kinda matter. Only kinda, though. Everything needs to be in service to telling the story.
Back to the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth angle from last year. People lost their minds that Ellsworth was even in the ring with AJ. They couldn't believe that Ellsworth got some shots in, that he won the ladder match, even through shenanigans. They focused so much on the week to week that they lost sight of the story in the mix.
Wins and losses do matter, but not nearly as much as some people say. The story is what really matters. Now, the WWE is indeed lacking in the story department much of the time. Oftentimes, the story sucks. But fans scrambling to Twitter every time they disagree with a match result are often missing the forest for the trees. They wanted a moment and got a story beat instead.
Wins and losses kinda matter. Only kinda, though. Everything needs to be in service to telling the story.
Back to the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth angle from last year. People lost their minds that Ellsworth was even in the ring with AJ. They couldn't believe that Ellsworth got some shots in, that he won the ladder match, even through shenanigans. They focused so much on the week to week that they lost sight of the story in the mix.
Wins and losses do matter, but not nearly as much as some people say. The story is what really matters. Now, the WWE is indeed lacking in the story department much of the time. Oftentimes, the story sucks. But fans scrambling to Twitter every time they disagree with a match result are often missing the forest for the trees. They wanted a moment and got a story beat instead.
I think part of the problem is that the fans don't trust WWE to give us great stories at this point. Other promotions like ROH, Lucha Underground, even NXT seem to be able to do these things without people freaking out, but nobody really trusts mainline WWE to tell the story in the end, and part of that is that we've already seen so many stories and characters ruined in service to the almighty moment and/or making the current chosen one look strong. And I think that will continue until WWE earns back that trust, and the only way to do that would be to put together a good story and stick with it even if the initial reaction is not good.
Wins and losses kinda matter. Only kinda, though. Everything needs to be in service to telling the story.
Back to the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth angle from last year. People lost their minds that Ellsworth was even in the ring with AJ. They couldn't believe that Ellsworth got some shots in, that he won the ladder match, even through shenanigans. They focused so much on the week to week that they lost sight of the story in the mix.
Wins and losses do matter, but not nearly as much as some people say. The story is what really matters. Now, the WWE is indeed lacking in the story department much of the time. Oftentimes, the story sucks. But fans scrambling to Twitter every time they disagree with a match result are often missing the forest for the trees. They wanted a moment and got a story beat instead.
I think part of the problem is that the fans don't trust WWE to give us great stories at this point. Other promotions like ROH, Lucha Underground, even NXT seem to be able to do these things without people freaking out, but nobody really trusts mainline WWE to tell the story in the end, and part of that is that we've already seen so many stories and characters ruined in service to the almighty moment and/or making the current chosen one look strong. And I think that will continue until WWE earns back that trust, and the only way to do that would be to put together a good story and stick with it even if the initial reaction is not good.
Doesn't help that the one long term plan WWE has right now is hated by the ever increasing smart fan base.
Posts
Steam
But I don't.
I was listening to that episode of The Attitude Era Podcast I posted earlier and Rhyno stood out as somebody who is currently suffering from WWE's shitty writing. When he first resurfaced in NXT he seemed like an absolute badass. It was like coming across a secret boss in a videogame. His presence lent credibility to Balor's main event push and the brand as a whole. Then he came up to main roster to achieve the same stuff for Smackdown and for a while it worked. Then they started having him make jokes and forgot to make him serious when it matters. Eventually this lead to Rhyno and by association Slater disappearing from TV because hey...those guys aren't serious characters who matter.
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
I wonder if this is one of those things that is an issue with the WWE's fanaticism about, well, the last letter in the acronym? They fall back on jokes so quickly for so many characters, because every segment has to be "entertaining", that they forget that like, audiences appreciate serious stories/characters too, just in different ways.
So professionally, I speak for a living. About history specifically, but that's not important for the point I'm about to make, except that it acknowledges that things can, and indeed have to be, serious sometimes. At my first job in this field, one of our trainers has a spiel he frequently makes, about how it's very easy to fall back on making too many jokes in your presentations because it's much easier to gauge your audience's reactions if they're being audible, and the most common audible reaction is laughter. Basically the ultimate 'punchline' of his thing is that if you stop being serious and telling actual history, and only tell jokes to get that laughter, you are no longer a historian, you're a clown.
I think you can translate that to a medium like WWE too. And it's not just laughter and jokes, it's chants, it's catchphrases, it's cheap heat or pops, whatever. They fall back on those quick moments of reaction because they don't know how to tell longer-form, slower-build stories it sometimes seems. I have to believe Vince probably starts shouting at people if the audience is quiet for five minutes. But the jokes particularly, because they're so branded and built around being "entertainment", really ruin so many characters - and not just the characters that tell them, but the characters (like Cena) who make jokes about characters who should be viewed seriously.
Steam: Chagrin LoL: Bonhomie
Maybe. I mean companies have stuck to shitty business practices till their end or rode outdated business models into the ground.
"It'll all change when they get financially hit or it'll all change when Vince dies, etc..."
We can guess/hope all we want but the reality is we don't know if it will ever change until it does. Or doesn't.
Comics, Games, Booze
I don't see how it could get worse though if Hunter takes over. NXT has to count for something.
It just feels like their writing team is in this constant, almost nihilistic, crisis mode. Like, they've got an attitude of "why plan more than a week in advance because someone's ACL is going to disintegrate and ruin everything." That, combined with the let's say "mercurial" nature of the man at the top of the org chart hamstring any long-term plotting they might want to do.
@Rorshach Kringle ??
Don't be silly he'd have worn the full Parka outfit.
{Twitter, Everybody's doing it. }{Writing and Story Blog}
He had it on under his clothes. Walked out the Cirkle K, turned a corner, yanked off the sweater and jeans and strutted away whistling. Thief, what thief? I'm just a totally regular La Parka.
Thank you for providing me this material. In November I'm gonna photoshop theater logos and movie posters to make it look like AJ just snuck out of the theater after having successfully watched the shitty Death Wish remake
Steam
circumstantial evidence at best
well you fucked up because when you stole a soft drink you had the cashier put it on your loyalty card.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure that the WWE's audience actually wants long-form storytelling either. In this age of social media, reactions tend to be knee-jerk. Say a wrestler loses a match as part of a longer storyline (example: the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth storyline from last year). Back in the day, you'd only have the crowd's reaction to go on for about 24+ hours. The dirtsheets would react a day or so later, and wrestling forums would be isolated pockets of opinions. Now, if they make a booking decision that they see as valuable to a story but a portion of the audience does not, the tsunami of vitriol is instantaneous thanks to Twitter.
So maybe they gave up. The Twitter fans continuously demonstrate that they only talk about moments, so why not give them only moments? Turns out the WWE does listen to the fans on social media. They just took the worst lesson from them.
As for the entertainment aspect of wrestling, they need fewer jokes and more physical in-ring comedy, especially if it's presented with a straight face.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
This is a completely unfair take. Bryan himself admitted to scary concussion complications since 2012 that he kept hidden.
Unless all his matches involve him taking NO bumps, he shouldn't be allowed to wrestle.
i show loyalty to no man
or convenience store
Bryan
Bryan
This carny, fake-ass business isn't worth it
Miz manages to do those same corner dropkicks and not land on his head and neck.
Daniel Bryan has a ton of fire wrapped inside of a paper mache shell and it's a tragedy in the making.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
I might be misremembering and maybe it was shorter than I think, but DX V Austin was great long form storytelling, a constant uphill battle of one man vs an entire group of competent people that culminated in a fantastic title match that the crowd were invested in. Or even Daniel Bryan's story, which wasn't so much storytelling as fluke, but it led to one of those Eddie Guerrero, or Chris Benoit feel good moments at the top of the show where they make it big.
There is a new epic story to be told between now and Mania, of a superstar who can't get that opportunity, because the authority is against him, because the current champ is holding him back or a faction is in his way, but he makes it through a condition match or wins the Rumble against overwhelming odds (and is someone the crowd will go nuts for winning), and then has to fight his way through to Mania to crown a new superstar.
It seems more like WWE is lazy than the audience just don't like following a story for more than a week. They've been following Fashion Peaks.
Or exhibit A in the WWE, the New Day. They largely became popular because of how funny they were and their chemistry together, on top of in-ring skill.
Which is why the wins and losses don't matter booking philosophy needs to die.
I thought you just said HHH would definitely do better running things than Vince
One of these people has been very much "wins and losses don't matter" publicly, and it isn't Vince
Bonus: Road Dogg (HHH's bff and current SD booker) is also publicly of the W&LDM mentality
Steam
Back to the AJ/Dean/Ellsworth angle from last year. People lost their minds that Ellsworth was even in the ring with AJ. They couldn't believe that Ellsworth got some shots in, that he won the ladder match, even through shenanigans. They focused so much on the week to week that they lost sight of the story in the mix.
Wins and losses do matter, but not nearly as much as some people say. The story is what really matters. Now, the WWE is indeed lacking in the story department much of the time. Oftentimes, the story sucks. But fans scrambling to Twitter every time they disagree with a match result are often missing the forest for the trees. They wanted a moment and got a story beat instead.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
I think part of the problem is that the fans don't trust WWE to give us great stories at this point. Other promotions like ROH, Lucha Underground, even NXT seem to be able to do these things without people freaking out, but nobody really trusts mainline WWE to tell the story in the end, and part of that is that we've already seen so many stories and characters ruined in service to the almighty moment and/or making the current chosen one look strong. And I think that will continue until WWE earns back that trust, and the only way to do that would be to put together a good story and stick with it even if the initial reaction is not good.
Doesn't help that the one long term plan WWE has right now is hated by the ever increasing smart fan base.