Well I guess now I'm confused as everyone else. Maybe she really did do it. I was under the impression that they just made her think she did it for some other reason that we'd find out about later.
I don't know, I think the Winter Soldier would be a perfect replacement. Part of the reason Cap got called out was that he wasn't in tune with modern America.
Are you trying to give me apoplexy?
No. I also agree that the whole "not relevant" argument is shit but it is what it is.
It was never about relevance, it was about awareness. It was about Rogers not relating to any actual America, or Americans. It was never that Captain America wasn't relevant: far from it, he was extremely relevant, and that's why it was so tragic that he was so disconnected from reality.
So yeah, the previews for Iron Man #18 show that she's a hypocritical bitch.
Wait, did she actually shoot him or was it just a hallucination of sorts?
Link?
Newsarama has it. I don't know how to link within text anymore. As for the Sally thing, it was simply a shit argument. It had no real substance. Just like most of the internet!
I don't know, I think the Winter Soldier would be a perfect replacement. Part of the reason Cap got called out was that he wasn't in tune with modern America.
Are you trying to give me apoplexy?
No. I also agree that the whole "not relevant" argument is shit but it is what it is.
It was never about relevance, it was about awareness. It was about Rogers not relating to any actual America, or Americans. It was never that Captain America wasn't relevant: far from it, he was extremely relevant, and that's why it was so tragic that he was so disconnected from reality.
So who do you think is in touch enough with America to be Captain America?
I don't think she was the one to actually kill him, I thought it was just a "suggestion" they used on her for some purpose that we'll see in the later books.
Then who killed him?
The sniper, I think
Wiki says:
The assassination, orchestrated by the Red Skull, involves Crossbones deployed as the sniper. In addition, Dr. Faustus, posing as a S.H.I.E.L.D. psychiatrist, has manipulated Sharon Carter and implanted in her mind a hypnotic suggestion that she believes caused her to shoot Rogers at the crucial moment.
No, she killed him:
She shoots him like five times in the stomach in the ambulance. The sentence means "She believes Dr. Faustus made her do it". Not "She believes she did it even though she didn't". *Edit*From her own wiki: In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr. Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.
In the end the sniper's bullet wasn't enough to take out cap, since he only got hit in the shoulder. I mean, how much of a puss would he have been if that had killed him?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
So if she did do it, the next Iron Man shows her to be a wee bit... Starkish.
So if she did do it, the next Iron Man shows her to be a wee bit... Starkish.
I couldn't find a preview of #18 with Sharon Carter in it, but I'm sure any blame she places on Stark can be read as an expression of her own feelings towards herself. The things we hate about others are the things we hate about ourselves, and all that.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
So if she did do it, the next Iron Man shows her to be a wee bit... Starkish.
I couldn't find a preview of #18 with Sharon Carter in it, but I'd guess that she's trying really hard not to think about the fact that she killed her lover.
It apparently wasn't Iron Man 18. I am now searching for whatever the hells it actually is.
Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with her behavior, and certainly nothing to earn her the title of hypocritical bitch.
She basically says that Stark isn't really allowed to be affected by Cap's death, when She was the one that killed him. The way it comes off it just seems like Tony is really overwhelmed and Sharon basically says "You don't deserve to grieve."
Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with her behavior, and certainly nothing to earn her the title of hypocritical bitch.
She basically says that Stark isn't really allowed to be affected by Cap's death, when She was the one that killed him. The way it comes off it just seems like Tony is really overwhelmed and Sharon basically says "You don't deserve to grieve."
I think she's projecting herself onto Stark, which is a perfectly valid response to the situation when she can't tell anyone what she's done and therefore has no outlet for her grief and guilt.
And everyone blames Stark for Cap's death, so her words aren't unique in that respect.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with her behavior, and certainly nothing to earn her the title of hypocritical bitch.
She basically says that Stark isn't really allowed to be affected by Cap's death, when She was the one that killed him. The way it comes off it just seems like Tony is really overwhelmed and Sharon basically says "You don't deserve to grieve."
I think she's projecting herself onto Stark, which is a perfectly valid response to the situation when she can't tell anyone what she's done and therefore has no outlet for her grief and guilt.
And everyone blames Stark for Cap's death, so her words aren't unique in that respect.
I guess. I'm just confused that nobody's noticed the SHIELD ammo in Steve's gut.
I don't know, I think the Winter Soldier would be a perfect replacement. Part of the reason Cap got called out was that he wasn't in tune with modern America.
Are you trying to give me apoplexy?
No. I also agree that the whole "not relevant" argument is shit but it is what it is.
It was never about relevance, it was about awareness. It was about Rogers not relating to any actual America, or Americans. It was never that Captain America wasn't relevant: far from it, he was extremely relevant, and that's why it was so tragic that he was so disconnected from reality.
So who do you think is in touch enough with America to be Captain America?
I don't have a good suggestion, frankly. That's why I didn't offer one. My point was apropos the question isn't whether there is someone who is more 'relevant' to America, but rather someone who is more connected to America.
It may be that the concept isn't easily doable right now; it may simply be too difficult for a person to be a Captain America in this context. Like a lot of Silver-Age characters, Captain America made sense when introduced but couldn't as easily be introduced (as a new character) today. Other examples are say, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, etc.
I am looking forward to how they move the Captain America concept forward, be it through a clone, a revived Rogers, a new person under the hood, etc.
I actually meant to ask who, of all the comic book characters out there, is as in touch with America as Captain America should have been.
Oh, good question. I don't have an answer to that one either, really. I'm certainly not going to say Stark, as much as that'd entertain you.
Frankly, I just don't think it's that possible for a super-powered crime-fighter to have that much in common with most Americans (I mean, hell, you're defined by what you do, and these people have little time to do anything but crime-fighting and sleeping). As for America, that's sort of a trick question.
Remember, the problem wasn't that Rogers was JUST disconnected from America/Americans, but rather that he was disconnected AND he led an armed insurrection. I don't think it's entirely problematic that he (or anyone else) were/are disconnected from America, so long as they don't start infringing on American's rights in the pursuit of their hobbies.
Long-time lurker of the forums, decided to post for my first time in this thread as I haven't seen anyone backing up Punisher as the new Captain America. I will, because I believe he's perfect for the job.
I disagree with the notion that a new Captain America was needed because Steve Rogers was disconnected from the America of today. That disconnect existed but it was the fault of the country, not of Rogers. Instead of aspiring to greatness, of working towards the representation of a "spotless" and moral man Captain America was, the people of America gave up. They became lazy, complacent, and too self-absorbed. In the view of those of us fully behind Rogers as Captain America, the American dream is that of someone bettering themself, of rising above their own expectations. A man may make a mistake and be forgiven, but that does not excuse said man and allow him to commit self-destructive mistakes over and over again. In our zeal to exclude nobody, we have become the proverbial 'enabler'. We let self-destructive behaviors and tendencies continue, in some cases even glorifying them! (I'm thinking of our treatment of people like Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, and Britney Spears.) In doing so we also create free passes for our own behavior, allowing us to indulge past the point of moderation into excess. We have thus lost our focus, our way, and this was the creation of the disconnect. Captain America did not follow this behavior, and as the striving to better ourselves was lost he no longer represented America. Our fault, not his.
The Punisher is the perfect 'new' Captain America because he represents those of us who see the moral stance Captain America stood for as quintessentially American. It may be narcissistic to think so, but I feel proud to be an American and believe that to be a citizen of this country means something. To see how far this country has fallen, granted in my own opinion, it's enough to make one bitter. Bitter that the system which stood for so much has allowed such degradation. That such a decline is unchecked. Those of us who held Rogers up as what it is to be American have become disillusioned; the people and law of this country we hold so dear have been lost. Instead of folding, of giving in, we fight back. As every possible mean is opposed to us, we must turn to vigilantism. That leads us to Frank Castle. The Punisher murders without question, but only those who do wrong. In our rose-colored glasses, Americans are to do no wrong and so the Punisher fits perfectly into the role as our 'new' Captain America. He is as outcast from society as Rogers followers are, he fights against wrongs as Rogers followers would, and he honors the man Rogers was. The Punisher has thus had the torch passed onto him by those who would follow Captain America.
Well that was quite the rant, heh, mixing a critique of real-life with Marvel Comics. :P But I fully back the Punisher as the 'new' Captain America, and felt that he needed a defense on here. To wrap it all up, I agree that the disconnect between the people of America and Captain America called for a new Cap to be found; but it was the people who lost their way, who are to blame, not Rogers himself.
Qonas on
There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility. - President Theodore Roosevelt
Long-time lurker of the forums, decided to post for my first time in this thread as I haven't seen anyone backing up Punisher as the new Captain America. I will, because I believe he's perfect for the job.
I disagree with the notion that a new Captain America was needed because Steve Rogers was disconnected from the America of today. That disconnect existed but it was the fault of the country, not of Rogers. Instead of aspiring to greatness, of working towards the representation of a "spotless" and moral man Captain America was, the people of America gave up. They became lazy, complacent, and too self-absorbed. In the view of those of us fully behind Rogers as Captain America, the American dream is that of someone bettering themself, of rising above their own expectations. A man may make a mistake and be forgiven, but that does not excuse said man and allow him to commit self-destructive mistakes over and over again. In our zeal to exclude nobody, we have become the proverbial 'enabler'. We let self-destructive behaviors and tendencies continue, in some cases even glorifying them! (I'm thinking of our treatment of people like Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, and Britney Spears.) In doing so we also create free passes for our own behavior, allowing us to indulge past the point of moderation into excess. We have thus lost our focus, our way, and this was the creation of the disconnect. Captain America did not follow this behavior, and as the striving to better ourselves was lost he no longer represented America. Our fault, not his.
The Punisher is the perfect 'new' Captain America because he represents those of us who see the moral stance Captain America stood for as quintessentially American. It may be narcissistic to think so, but I feel proud to be an American and believe that to be a citizen of this country means something. To see how far this country has fallen, granted in my own opinion, it's enough to make one bitter. Bitter that the system which stood for so much has allowed such degradation. That such a decline is unchecked. Those of us who held Rogers up as what it is to be American have become disillusioned; the people and law of this country we hold so dear have been lost. Instead of folding, of giving in, we fight back. As every possible mean is opposed to us, we must turn to vigilantism. That leads us to Frank Castle. The Punisher murders without question, but only those who do wrong. In our rose-colored glasses, Americans are to do no wrong and so the Punisher fits perfectly into the role as our 'new' Captain America. He is as outcast from society as Rogers followers are, he fights against wrongs as Rogers followers would, and he honors the man Rogers was. The Punisher has thus had the torch passed onto him by those who would follow Captain America.
Well that was quite the rant, heh, mixing a critique of real-life with Marvel Comics. :P But I fully back the Punisher as the 'new' Captain America, and felt that he needed a defense on here. To wrap it all up, I agree that the disconnect between the people of America and Captain America called for a new Cap to be found; but it was the people who lost their way, who are to blame, not Rogers himself.
I also think that the Punisher fits just fine.
Heck, look at Civil War. EVERYONE in both sides did bad shit, went against what they believed in, compromised against their morals, except the Punisher. He was hunted by SHIELD, but the agent going after him preferred to resign than take the Punisher down. The Punisher doesnt join anyside, as killing heroes is below him.
Only when Tony Stark brings villains to his side does the Punisher choose to help the resistance, saves Spidey´s life, and also saves Captain America from the worst decision ever in his life by shooting villains that Cap was about to let into the Resistance.
The Punisher was the only character who entered the Civil War and left it morally unscathed.
I thought "token black dude" was the guy that has brown skin meanwhile everything else about him is white, except that he's inept and always requires the white dudes to bail him out.
I thought "token black dude" was the guy that has brown skin meanwhile everything else about him is white, except that he's inept and always requires the white dudes to bail him out.
And that hardly applies to Patriot or Falcon or Josiah X either.
It's a little demeaning if you suggest tokenism everytime a minority, even a fictional one, makes it into a role usually reserved for white men. It implies that a minority can only succeed through special treatment, or that a minority character is never as good as a white character and will only be injected into a storyline for purposes of forced racial diversity (new Blue Beetle).
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
I thought "token black dude" was the guy that has brown skin meanwhile everything else about him is white, except that he's inept and always requires the white dudes to bail him out.
And that hardly applies to Patriot or Falcon or Josiah X either.
It's a little demeaning if you suggest tokenism everytime a minority, even a fictional one, makes it into a role usually reserved for white men. It implies that a minority can only succeed through special treatment, or that a minority character is never as good as a white character and will only be injected into a storyline for purposes of forced racial diversity (new Blue Beetle).
Jamie wasn't forced into anything. Griffen was told that they would be killing off Ted and asked if he wanted to do anything with the Scarab. So Griffen made Jamie.
I thought "token black dude" was the guy that has brown skin meanwhile everything else about him is white, except that he's inept and always requires the white dudes to bail him out.
And that hardly applies to Patriot or Falcon or Josiah X either.
It's a little demeaning if you suggest tokenism everytime a minority, even a fictional one, makes it into a role usually reserved for white men. It implies that a minority can only succeed through special treatment, or that a minority character is never as good as a white character and will only be injected into a storyline for purposes of forced racial diversity (new Blue Beetle).
Jamie wasn't forced into anything. Griffen was told that they would be killing off Ted and asked if he wanted to do anything with the Scarab. So Griffen made Jamie.
Oh, I didn't know that. I was just going by popular reactions to the character.
I thought "token black dude" was the guy that has brown skin meanwhile everything else about him is white, except that he's inept and always requires the white dudes to bail him out.
And that hardly applies to Patriot or Falcon or Josiah X either.
It's a little demeaning if you suggest tokenism everytime a minority, even a fictional one, makes it into a role usually reserved for white men. It implies that a minority can only succeed through special treatment, or that a minority character is never as good as a white character and will only be injected into a storyline for purposes of forced racial diversity (new Blue Beetle).
For fuck's sake. And here I thought we were just poking fun at the characters and the fact that there aren't many black super-heroes. Instead, I'm getting a fucking lecture about subtle racism. Stick it in your ear, Hooraydiation. In your goddamn ear.
Jamie wasn't forced into anything. Griffen was told that they would be killing off Ted and asked if he wanted to do anything with the Scarab. So Griffen made Jamie.
Giffen.
And while DC's always maintained that Ted wasn't killed just to racially diversify their universe a little more, the fact that Countdown heavily foreshadowed Ted's replacement, his killing being editorially mandated, and his replacement coming at a time when a lot of other white heroes were being replaced by minorites makes that kind of suspect. They may not have had a concrete plan to do so, but the idea was clearly there form the get go.
For fuck's sake. And here I thought we were just poking fun at the characters and the fact that there aren't many black super-heroes. Instead, I'm getting a fucking lecture about subtle racism. Stick it in your ear, Hooraydiation. In your goddamn ear.
I guess I was kind of a dick, taking an earnest attempt at conversation and responding with a wholly unwarranted flame. Thank god cooler heads prevail, and a guy like me can be shown the error of my ways.
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Wait, did she actually shoot him or was it just a hallucination of sorts?
Link?
Who cares abou the outfit?
Whats important is, does she have a Myspace page and watch Nascar races?
My digital art! http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=8168
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It was never about relevance, it was about awareness. It was about Rogers not relating to any actual America, or Americans. It was never that Captain America wasn't relevant: far from it, he was extremely relevant, and that's why it was so tragic that he was so disconnected from reality.
Newsarama has it. I don't know how to link within text anymore. As for the Sally thing, it was simply a shit argument. It had no real substance. Just like most of the internet!
So who do you think is in touch enough with America to be Captain America?
Maybe I should go scan them in. Their bios even say they've disappeared completely since Cap left them to run his program.
Jack Flag is paralyzed.
No, she killed him:
In the end the sniper's bullet wasn't enough to take out cap, since he only got hit in the shoulder. I mean, how much of a puss would he have been if that had killed him?
I couldn't find a preview of #18 with Sharon Carter in it, but I'm sure any blame she places on Stark can be read as an expression of her own feelings towards herself. The things we hate about others are the things we hate about ourselves, and all that.
It apparently wasn't Iron Man 18. I am now searching for whatever the hells it actually is.
Cap 26. oops. It's up at CBR.
She basically says that Stark isn't really allowed to be affected by Cap's death, when She was the one that killed him. The way it comes off it just seems like Tony is really overwhelmed and Sharon basically says "You don't deserve to grieve."
I think she's projecting herself onto Stark, which is a perfectly valid response to the situation when she can't tell anyone what she's done and therefore has no outlet for her grief and guilt.
And everyone blames Stark for Cap's death, so her words aren't unique in that respect.
I guess. I'm just confused that nobody's noticed the SHIELD ammo in Steve's gut.
I don't have a good suggestion, frankly. That's why I didn't offer one. My point was apropos the question isn't whether there is someone who is more 'relevant' to America, but rather someone who is more connected to America.
It may be that the concept isn't easily doable right now; it may simply be too difficult for a person to be a Captain America in this context. Like a lot of Silver-Age characters, Captain America made sense when introduced but couldn't as easily be introduced (as a new character) today. Other examples are say, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, etc.
I am looking forward to how they move the Captain America concept forward, be it through a clone, a revived Rogers, a new person under the hood, etc.
Wolverine, obviously.
Somebody already mentioned that according to Sally's dumbass argument,
Deadpool should be Captain America
I think the one he was most for was Hawkeye. He said that Punisher probably thinks he could do the job, but isn't the right guy for the job.
Oh, good question. I don't have an answer to that one either, really. I'm certainly not going to say Stark, as much as that'd entertain you.
Frankly, I just don't think it's that possible for a super-powered crime-fighter to have that much in common with most Americans (I mean, hell, you're defined by what you do, and these people have little time to do anything but crime-fighting and sleeping). As for America, that's sort of a trick question.
Remember, the problem wasn't that Rogers was JUST disconnected from America/Americans, but rather that he was disconnected AND he led an armed insurrection. I don't think it's entirely problematic that he (or anyone else) were/are disconnected from America, so long as they don't start infringing on American's rights in the pursuit of their hobbies.
$@*! Yes!
Anally.
I could live with Hawkeye.
I disagree with the notion that a new Captain America was needed because Steve Rogers was disconnected from the America of today. That disconnect existed but it was the fault of the country, not of Rogers. Instead of aspiring to greatness, of working towards the representation of a "spotless" and moral man Captain America was, the people of America gave up. They became lazy, complacent, and too self-absorbed. In the view of those of us fully behind Rogers as Captain America, the American dream is that of someone bettering themself, of rising above their own expectations. A man may make a mistake and be forgiven, but that does not excuse said man and allow him to commit self-destructive mistakes over and over again. In our zeal to exclude nobody, we have become the proverbial 'enabler'. We let self-destructive behaviors and tendencies continue, in some cases even glorifying them! (I'm thinking of our treatment of people like Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, and Britney Spears.) In doing so we also create free passes for our own behavior, allowing us to indulge past the point of moderation into excess. We have thus lost our focus, our way, and this was the creation of the disconnect. Captain America did not follow this behavior, and as the striving to better ourselves was lost he no longer represented America. Our fault, not his.
The Punisher is the perfect 'new' Captain America because he represents those of us who see the moral stance Captain America stood for as quintessentially American. It may be narcissistic to think so, but I feel proud to be an American and believe that to be a citizen of this country means something. To see how far this country has fallen, granted in my own opinion, it's enough to make one bitter. Bitter that the system which stood for so much has allowed such degradation. That such a decline is unchecked. Those of us who held Rogers up as what it is to be American have become disillusioned; the people and law of this country we hold so dear have been lost. Instead of folding, of giving in, we fight back. As every possible mean is opposed to us, we must turn to vigilantism. That leads us to Frank Castle. The Punisher murders without question, but only those who do wrong. In our rose-colored glasses, Americans are to do no wrong and so the Punisher fits perfectly into the role as our 'new' Captain America. He is as outcast from society as Rogers followers are, he fights against wrongs as Rogers followers would, and he honors the man Rogers was. The Punisher has thus had the torch passed onto him by those who would follow Captain America.
Well that was quite the rant, heh, mixing a critique of real-life with Marvel Comics. :P But I fully back the Punisher as the 'new' Captain America, and felt that he needed a defense on here. To wrap it all up, I agree that the disconnect between the people of America and Captain America called for a new Cap to be found; but it was the people who lost their way, who are to blame, not Rogers himself.
There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility. - President Theodore Roosevelt
So on that note, will the Punisher's next big foe be Jose, the infamous illegal immigrant who's stealing all our jobs?
I also think that the Punisher fits just fine.
Heck, look at Civil War. EVERYONE in both sides did bad shit, went against what they believed in, compromised against their morals, except the Punisher. He was hunted by SHIELD, but the agent going after him preferred to resign than take the Punisher down. The Punisher doesnt join anyside, as killing heroes is below him.
Only when Tony Stark brings villains to his side does the Punisher choose to help the resistance, saves Spidey´s life, and also saves Captain America from the worst decision ever in his life by shooting villains that Cap was about to let into the Resistance.
The Punisher was the only character who entered the Civil War and left it morally unscathed.
My digital art! http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=8168
My pen and paper art! http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=7462
And that hardly applies to Patriot or Falcon or Josiah X either.
It's a little demeaning if you suggest tokenism everytime a minority, even a fictional one, makes it into a role usually reserved for white men. It implies that a minority can only succeed through special treatment, or that a minority character is never as good as a white character and will only be injected into a storyline for purposes of forced racial diversity (new Blue Beetle).
Jamie wasn't forced into anything. Griffen was told that they would be killing off Ted and asked if he wanted to do anything with the Scarab. So Griffen made Jamie.
Oh, I didn't know that. I was just going by popular reactions to the character.
For fuck's sake. And here I thought we were just poking fun at the characters and the fact that there aren't many black super-heroes. Instead, I'm getting a fucking lecture about subtle racism. Stick it in your ear, Hooraydiation. In your goddamn ear.
Giffen.
And while DC's always maintained that Ted wasn't killed just to racially diversify their universe a little more, the fact that Countdown heavily foreshadowed Ted's replacement, his killing being editorially mandated, and his replacement coming at a time when a lot of other white heroes were being replaced by minorites makes that kind of suspect. They may not have had a concrete plan to do so, but the idea was clearly there form the get go.
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I guess I was kind of a dick, taking an earnest attempt at conversation and responding with a wholly unwarranted flame. Thank god cooler heads prevail, and a guy like me can be shown the error of my ways.