Yeah, I don't hold that Klyden is irredeemable. Changing somebody like that is a matter of constantly challenging what is horrible about their traditions while also resisting the temptation to just write them off forever. Completely excluding them from reasonable society is tempting as an easier approach, but it's also what keeps that sort of person stuck in their traditions since they have nowhere else to go. They have to see that people who really care about other people aren't willing to arbitrarily destroy and/or condemn anyone just because that's how things have always been done.
It's not nearly enough for somebody like Klyden to be told they're wrong, they have to be shown how to feel and understand what's wrong about what they're doing, as well as being given a viable alternative to the situation that locked them into that mindset in the first place.
I agreed but then I took it back. Because while the premise rings true, I think you're describing Bortus here. Klyden doesn't come off like someone passively ignorant; he strikes me as more the "miserable black hole of a person who just wants a reason to lash out at someone who doesn't live in his mirror" type.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, I don't hold that Klyden is irredeemable. Changing somebody like that is a matter of constantly challenging what is horrible about their traditions while also resisting the temptation to just write them off forever. Completely excluding them from reasonable society is tempting as an easier approach, but it's also what keeps that sort of person stuck in their traditions since they have nowhere else to go. They have to see that people who really care about other people aren't willing to arbitrarily destroy and/or condemn anyone just because that's how things have always been done.
It's not nearly enough for somebody like Klyden to be told they're wrong, they have to be shown how to feel and understand what's wrong about what they're doing, as well as being given a viable alternative to the situation that locked them into that mindset in the first place.
I agreed but then I took it back. Because while the premise is rings true, I think you're describing Bortus here. Klyden doesn't come off like someone passively ignorant; he strikes me as more the "miserable black hole of a person who just wants a reason to lash out at someone who doesn't live in his mirror" type.
Bortus is Klyden with maybe a little bit more personal initiative (he didn't turn in his ex-lover, after all). You can only do so much for somebody who chooses to think and believe a certain way, but cutting them off completely takes a slim chance of change and turns it into essentially no chance for change. It's not a change of mind that you can force on somebody and it takes time, patience, and persistence. Somebody that miserable is also hurting pretty badly themselves, and it's extremely unlikely they can ever pull themselves out of their situation; it takes people willing to help.
That being said, I really don't want Klyden around long enough to see his character change. He just pisses me off at this point, and we get the point. I'd be perfectly content with him getting shuffled off the show, then maybe showing up at a later point after having a change of heart. There's a whole list of other characters I'd rather see get attention, and I actually like those characters as well.
Sidenote: if this episode had happened before the sex addiction episode, it'd have made bortus's actions a bit less bad, from a viewer's perspective.
In a way, I think the addiction episode works better coming before this one. The inciting incident is further away from it, so the audience doesn't immediately realize why he's acting that way, and it adds an interesting layer when we realize he still feels resentment over that (which, of course he would. It makes a lot of sense).
I feel like if it came right after this past episode, the audience might have realized what was up too quickly, and would have been much quicker to side with Bortus, not having that moment later in where we realize why he's doing what he's doing. Basically, I think if it had been right after this last episode, Klyden would have been too unsympathetic for some of the story beats. It also allows the fallout of this episode to build on those past ones.
Woah, that was certainly a way for a TNG parody show made by the guy behind family guy to end. Kidding, but still.... phew, that was intense.
One thing that made it good was the music. See, when Rick Berman ran TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT, one of the first things he did was to only do the bare minimum of music. That is why the later TNG era Treks sounded so generic. Like from season 3 to season 4 of Best of Both Worlds is a dramatic difference. One episode filled with dramatic tension filled music, scored to the exact beats of the episode. The other just using the music from previous season again and again.
Compare it to B5 or BSG and its not even close.
What I am saying is that Orville has good music.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
The funny thing is the episode basically confirms all of my wife's suspicions about Lt. Cmdr. Data. As was pointed out repeatedly, Isaac (like Data) is an unfeeling machine. She holds that all of Data's "quest to be human" was simply a machine calculating what it should tell the humans in order to fit in/survive among them. This bums me out as I love Data.
One is a virtually unique synthetic individual simply trying to exist in an organic world, the other is a sleeper agent trying to help his bosses rule the world.
I'd also like to say how happy I am that this isn't a wait until next season for the resolution of this.
Still, it's going to be a long week (something I never really thought I'd say in regards to a McFarlane show).
Data is genuine in his quest. He would never have bothered with the emotion chip otherwise . Also he is bound by the 3 laws( to a degree)
Issac is more like a Geth
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Did they give a reason why they needed to go to:
Earth, specifically? They're fully inorganic, right? Couldn't they take over basically any space rock with sufficient elements/materials required to build from? It's not like they need food, water... an atmosphere...
I don't know, I'm trying to roll with it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out their motivations here.
The funny thing is the episode basically confirms all of my wife's suspicions about Lt. Cmdr. Data. As was pointed out repeatedly, Isaac (like Data) is an unfeeling machine. She holds that all of Data's "quest to be human" was simply a machine calculating what it should tell the humans in order to fit in/survive among them. This bums me out as I love Data.
I'm sorry but this makes zero sense.
if his only incentive was to survive among humans, then why would he join Star Fleet, a dangerous occupation that put him in the center of attention much of which directly endangered him(Maddox)?
Earth, specifically? They're fully inorganic, right? Couldn't they take over basically any space rock with sufficient elements/materials required to build from? It's not like they need food, water... an atmosphere...
I don't know, I'm trying to roll with it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out their motivations here.
I'm assuming it's
an attempt at a quick coup.
If they take out the military/political/cultural heart of the Union first, then they reduce the chance that the PU (not the best initials) can oppose them with any real strength.
Earth, specifically? They're fully inorganic, right? Couldn't they take over basically any space rock with sufficient elements/materials required to build from? It's not like they need food, water... an atmosphere...
I don't know, I'm trying to roll with it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out their motivations here.
I think basically;
They've concluded that they'll need to take out humanity eventually, so no time like the present. Better to do it before the humans advance more and have a chance to realize what's going on and prepare.
Earth, specifically? They're fully inorganic, right? Couldn't they take over basically any space rock with sufficient elements/materials required to build from? It's not like they need food, water... an atmosphere...
I don't know, I'm trying to roll with it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out their motivations here.
The last organic race they had any extended contact with (the creators) tried to wipe them out, it seems logical that any other organic race they encountered would reach the same conclusion that they can't out compete the inorganic race and the only chance to survive is to destroy the inorganics before they can propagate beyond any chance of control (which the creator race failed to do). Taking over uninhabitable space rocks may delay this, but eventually... Resources are finite, and in the long term it'll come down to inorganics vs organics.
Earth, as the nominal leader of the Union, would logically be the most heavily defended and fortified world of the Union and thus the main source of resistance.
I don't think any of this was spelled out though, just guesses on my part.
I did find it odd that they all had eye dots, I thought Isaac said early on that they were an affectation to allow him to integrate better. I think having all the others with just the blank faces would have been a better visual.
They're also probably not wrong that eventually the union would grow big and powerful and advanced enough to figure out what they did, and stop any future expansion of theirs
It's pretty ballsy to take one of your utility relatively genial characters and make him play completely straight his role in a previous genocide and indifference to both future genocides and the extinction of his fellow crew members without an out like outside interference like the Borg or whatever.
The funny thing is the episode basically confirms all of my wife's suspicions about Lt. Cmdr. Data. As was pointed out repeatedly, Isaac (like Data) is an unfeeling machine. She holds that all of Data's "quest to be human" was simply a machine calculating what it should tell the humans in order to fit in/survive among them. This bums me out as I love Data.
I'm sorry but this makes zero sense.
if his only incentive was to survive among humans, then why would he join Star Fleet, a dangerous occupation that put him in the center of attention much of which directly endangered him(Maddox)?
Well, it gives him effectively unrestricted access (to the extent that he can imitate the captain and seize control) to the flagship of the Federation and all of their military and scientific resources. This could be worth the calculated risk - maybe the ship blows up but it is worth it for the access to Federation technology (Soong was a cutting edge cyberneticist but probably could not build a state of the art warp core). Similarly, with Maddox, it could be a calculated risk with the payoff being that he gets to make more Datas. The point is you really can't say. Data himself may not even know. Even if he has no hostile intentions toward humans, and Soong doesn't either, it would make sense to give him a stated goal that is relatable and somewhat flattering to humans rather than to make him alien or give him a potentially threatening goal (for instance, what if his statement was that he really wanted to be more Romulan?).
At issue with Data is that he (like the Kaylons) is in some sense a mysterious machine that is not fully understood by the humans he works with. If he works like other machines, it doesn't really make sense for him to "want" anything. Isaac, who it seems is much more machine-like than Data is portrayed to be, clearly falls into this category: he doesn't want relationships with humans (he doesn't not want them either), he is just fulfilling his programming. There's no telling if the Isaac they're dealing with after the Kaylons reactivate him is even the same Isaac (an analog to Data and Lore). The family, the party, the picture, etc don't mean anything to Isaac (as portrayed) - it is more akin to that episode where Data has the "relationship" with the blonde engineer; none of it really means anything to to him.
It's pretty ballsy to take one of your utility relatively genial characters and make him play completely straight his role in a previous genocide and indifference to both future genocides and the extinction of his fellow crew members without an out like outside interference like the Borg or whatever.
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to see how (or if) they redeem Isaac.
Cause he kicked the dog hard here.
I'm kind of hoping they don't, just because it would seem to be a real twist to see them play his whole non-emotional thing into a straight up mass xenocide attempt.
The Isaac we have now is reset or altered compared to the Isaac we've gotten to know. Something will happen to reawaken the 'robo-feelings' he has developed for the crew without realizing it, and he'll help save the day. We'll also learn that he wasn't actually around at the time of the genocide, and so he didn't directly participate in it.
Though obviously I could be completely wrong. Either way, it'll be interesting to see where they go with this.
If we have learned anything from Transformers, it's that robots with blue eyes are good and robots with red eyes are bad.
Was it just me, or was it the angles on the faceplates, or was it intentional, that the eye colors often didn't match? It seemed like a lot of them had one red, and one orange "eye".
The Isaac we have now is reset or altered compared to the Isaac we've gotten to know. Something will happen to reawaken the 'robo-feelings' he has developed for the crew without realizing it, and he'll help save the day. We'll also learn that he wasn't actually around at the time of the genocide, and so he didn't directly participate in it.
Though obviously I could be completely wrong. Either way, it'll be interesting to see where they go with this.
That might exonerate him from having participated in the genocide, but he still hid his true purpose and the whole genocide thing for his time on the ship.
Best case scenario, the Isaac we got to know was a sleeper agent who had his memories of his true mission and the race's history hidden from him during his time on the ship and only recovered that knowledge after he was reset. When they restored him, "our" Isaac's personality was put into storage and a default personality was loaded into the body. That way, it wasn't his fault that he lied to the entire crew, and the Isaac that betrayed them on the planet wasn't "our" Isaac.
I think it's likely they'll 7of9 him: turns out the Kaylon aren't actually individuals but are a hive mind (implied when they deactivated him from across the galaxy), so once he's removed from the collective intelligence he regains his individuality.
Alternative worst case scenario (from an audience standpoint) someone made a non-specific request while on the holodeck, and the computer took it and ran with it. Something like "What's the worst that could happen if we visited Kaylon?". Isaac accesses the simulation and is... well, not shocked because that would be an emotional response, but disappointed maybe? Kind of like that Voyager episode where the Maquis mutiny simulation was found and everyone assumed it was a holonovel and wanted to know how it all ended.
I doubt that's the way they'll take it, but if it is, I'm out.
Earth, specifically? They're fully inorganic, right? Couldn't they take over basically any space rock with sufficient elements/materials required to build from? It's not like they need food, water... an atmosphere...
I don't know, I'm trying to roll with it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out their motivations here.
I think basically;
They've concluded that they'll need to take out humanity eventually, so no time like the present. Better to do it before the humans advance more and have a chance to realize what's going on and prepare.
Orville seems to follow the sci-fi standard shard by Star Trek, Mass Effect, and others. Humans explode onto the galactic scene and blow past everyone.
In Mass Effect, humans go from barely spacefaring to fighting the biggest galactic superpower to a stalemate in a matter of decades. In Star Trek they have their first warp flight and less than 80 years later win a war with the Romulans who have been warp capable for centuries and had been the technological masters of the region. In both settings with a 2000s-2100s emergence by 2400s they're within sight of becoming the preeminent superpower.
The Union hasn't been given a lot of history, but it's still set in the 2400's so a similar emergence seems fair - spacefaring for a handful of generations and already making inroads as a superpower, if not by Trek style human exceptionalism then by allying with older species like the Moclans and getting a constant leg up like we saw last week.
So from the Kalon perspective
humans may not be the greatest short term threat, but very well may be the greatest long term threat, likely to catch up to or even surpass them, and rapidly surrounding themselves with a growing network of allies.
The Isaac we have now is reset or altered compared to the Isaac we've gotten to know. Something will happen to reawaken the 'robo-feelings' he has developed for the crew without realizing it, and he'll help save the day. We'll also learn that he wasn't actually around at the time of the genocide, and so he didn't directly participate in it.
Though obviously I could be completely wrong. Either way, it'll be interesting to see where they go with this.
When the Kaylons took Isaac's body away, they'd already said they had all his data, so when they opened up his head and messed with him, I assume that was altering his personality. They literally showed us them messing with his head. I'm betting that one of the kids is directly threatened next episode and that triggers Isaac's old personality to kick back in and he saves the day.
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I agreed but then I took it back. Because while the premise rings true, I think you're describing Bortus here. Klyden doesn't come off like someone passively ignorant; he strikes me as more the "miserable black hole of a person who just wants a reason to lash out at someone who doesn't live in his mirror" type.
Bortus is Klyden with maybe a little bit more personal initiative (he didn't turn in his ex-lover, after all). You can only do so much for somebody who chooses to think and believe a certain way, but cutting them off completely takes a slim chance of change and turns it into essentially no chance for change. It's not a change of mind that you can force on somebody and it takes time, patience, and persistence. Somebody that miserable is also hurting pretty badly themselves, and it's extremely unlikely they can ever pull themselves out of their situation; it takes people willing to help.
That being said, I really don't want Klyden around long enough to see his character change. He just pisses me off at this point, and we get the point. I'd be perfectly content with him getting shuffled off the show, then maybe showing up at a later point after having a change of heart. There's a whole list of other characters I'd rather see get attention, and I actually like those characters as well.
edit: Out of curiosity, was it him or Bortus that laid the egg?
According to S1E02, it was Bortus.
"Sir, I wish to request a leave of absence."
"For what reason?"
"I have laid an egg."
Now, that could be retconned, they might push it as a "we" situation. But he clearly says "I".
In a way, I think the addiction episode works better coming before this one. The inciting incident is further away from it, so the audience doesn't immediately realize why he's acting that way, and it adds an interesting layer when we realize he still feels resentment over that (which, of course he would. It makes a lot of sense).
I feel like if it came right after this past episode, the audience might have realized what was up too quickly, and would have been much quicker to side with Bortus, not having that moment later in where we realize why he's doing what he's doing. Basically, I think if it had been right after this last episode, Klyden would have been too unsympathetic for some of the story beats. It also allows the fallout of this episode to build on those past ones.
That's a hell of a cliffhanger there.
Damn.
Yeah this whole episode was crazy
One thing that made it good was the music. See, when Rick Berman ran TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT, one of the first things he did was to only do the bare minimum of music. That is why the later TNG era Treks sounded so generic. Like from season 3 to season 4 of Best of Both Worlds is a dramatic difference. One episode filled with dramatic tension filled music, scored to the exact beats of the episode. The other just using the music from previous season again and again.
Compare it to B5 or BSG and its not even close.
What I am saying is that Orville has good music.
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Still, it's going to be a long week (something I never really thought I'd say in regards to a McFarlane show).
Issac is more like a Geth
I don't know, I'm trying to roll with it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out their motivations here.
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if his only incentive was to survive among humans, then why would he join Star Fleet, a dangerous occupation that put him in the center of attention much of which directly endangered him(Maddox)?
I'm assuming it's
If they take out the military/political/cultural heart of the Union first, then they reduce the chance that the PU (not the best initials) can oppose them with any real strength.
I think basically;
Earth, as the nominal leader of the Union, would logically be the most heavily defended and fortified world of the Union and thus the main source of resistance.
I don't think any of this was spelled out though, just guesses on my part.
I did find it odd that they all had eye dots, I thought Isaac said early on that they were an affectation to allow him to integrate better. I think having all the others with just the blank faces would have been a better visual.
Data was programmed by Soong to want to be more human.
The Kaylons are like the human form Replicators from Stargate or the Cylons (Kaylon even sounds like Cylon).
Not that they'd realize it, akin to Issac not realizing he works more efficiently when he's around the Doctor.
to bite them on the ass, because it actually is pretty disrespectful
Well, it gives him effectively unrestricted access (to the extent that he can imitate the captain and seize control) to the flagship of the Federation and all of their military and scientific resources. This could be worth the calculated risk - maybe the ship blows up but it is worth it for the access to Federation technology (Soong was a cutting edge cyberneticist but probably could not build a state of the art warp core). Similarly, with Maddox, it could be a calculated risk with the payoff being that he gets to make more Datas. The point is you really can't say. Data himself may not even know. Even if he has no hostile intentions toward humans, and Soong doesn't either, it would make sense to give him a stated goal that is relatable and somewhat flattering to humans rather than to make him alien or give him a potentially threatening goal (for instance, what if his statement was that he really wanted to be more Romulan?).
At issue with Data is that he (like the Kaylons) is in some sense a mysterious machine that is not fully understood by the humans he works with. If he works like other machines, it doesn't really make sense for him to "want" anything. Isaac, who it seems is much more machine-like than Data is portrayed to be, clearly falls into this category: he doesn't want relationships with humans (he doesn't not want them either), he is just fulfilling his programming. There's no telling if the Isaac they're dealing with after the Kaylons reactivate him is even the same Isaac (an analog to Data and Lore). The family, the party, the picture, etc don't mean anything to Isaac (as portrayed) - it is more akin to that episode where Data has the "relationship" with the blonde engineer; none of it really means anything to to him.
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Cause he kicked the dog hard here.
I'm kind of hoping they don't, just because it would seem to be a real twist to see them play his whole non-emotional thing into a straight up mass xenocide attempt.
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Yeah thats a pretty obvious visual choice
Was it just me, or was it the angles on the faceplates, or was it intentional, that the eye colors often didn't match? It seemed like a lot of them had one red, and one orange "eye".
Best case scenario, the Isaac we got to know was a sleeper agent who had his memories of his true mission and the race's history hidden from him during his time on the ship and only recovered that knowledge after he was reset. When they restored him, "our" Isaac's personality was put into storage and a default personality was loaded into the body. That way, it wasn't his fault that he lied to the entire crew, and the Isaac that betrayed them on the planet wasn't "our" Isaac.
I think it's likely they'll 7of9 him: turns out the Kaylon aren't actually individuals but are a hive mind (implied when they deactivated him from across the galaxy), so once he's removed from the collective intelligence he regains his individuality.
Alternative worst case scenario (from an audience standpoint) someone made a non-specific request while on the holodeck, and the computer took it and ran with it. Something like "What's the worst that could happen if we visited Kaylon?". Isaac accesses the simulation and is... well, not shocked because that would be an emotional response, but disappointed maybe? Kind of like that Voyager episode where the Maquis mutiny simulation was found and everyone assumed it was a holonovel and wanted to know how it all ended.
I doubt that's the way they'll take it, but if it is, I'm out.
Dinobot had red eyes. Dinobot lived a warrior... and died a hero.
Me Grimlock no like puny Kaylons!
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Dinobot is a weird case. I sometimes wonder if he was with Megatron out of obligation or something.
Orville seems to follow the sci-fi standard shard by Star Trek, Mass Effect, and others. Humans explode onto the galactic scene and blow past everyone.
In Mass Effect, humans go from barely spacefaring to fighting the biggest galactic superpower to a stalemate in a matter of decades. In Star Trek they have their first warp flight and less than 80 years later win a war with the Romulans who have been warp capable for centuries and had been the technological masters of the region. In both settings with a 2000s-2100s emergence by 2400s they're within sight of becoming the preeminent superpower.
The Union hasn't been given a lot of history, but it's still set in the 2400's so a similar emergence seems fair - spacefaring for a handful of generations and already making inroads as a superpower, if not by Trek style human exceptionalism then by allying with older species like the Moclans and getting a constant leg up like we saw last week.
So from the Kalon perspective
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