It wasn't every super fan's personal fanfic and they can't even, etc.
There are other complaints besides that, but the above comment is what a lot of people defending the movie have resorted to throwing out. It's not a good counter argument because the movie has issues that are unrelated to fanfic (like TOGSolid's points about how small the galaxy feels, the poor excuses to allow the Resistance ships to flee for 2 hours of the movie, etc).
There are people who are upset it didn't go how they expected, but some of that is due to this being the 9th film in the cinematic universe and it not really caring that it is in a cinematic universe.
I'd say they're doing a better job than the prequels did. That doesn't absolve the reasonable criticisms, they are legit but not every fan has reacted to the film like that, it's SW tradition - starting with ESB.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It wasn't every super fan's personal fanfic and they can't even, etc.
There are other complaints besides that, but the above comment is what a lot of people defending the movie have resorted to throwing out. It's not a good counter argument because the movie has issues that are unrelated to fanfic (like TOGSolid's points about how small the galaxy feels, the poor excuses to allow the Resistance ships to flee for 2 hours of the movie, etc).
There are people who are upset it didn't go how they expected, but some of that is due to this being the 9th film in the cinematic universe and it not really caring that it is in a cinematic universe.
Yeah but
1) The galaxy being small has been a Star Wars thing since Star Wars existed. It never felt huge, it always felt like shit was next door. This is a commentary on the SW universe as a whole and can't really be levied at this film by itself.
2) The excuse for the resistance ship fleeing is that they were faster than the bulky Star Destroyers. It seems likely that this could be the case because they're smaller and have less mass. I'm not sure how this is a poor excuse.
There's definitely a strange contingent of people who wanted Poe to actually be right all the time and put way more importance in his presence than the film can justify.
There are other issues that might be more subjective, but these seem to be the major glaring issues that make no damn sense to me.
I'd say they're doing a better job than the prequels did. That doesn't absolve the reasonable criticisms, they are legit but not every fan has reacted to the film like that, it's SW tradition - starting with ESB.
1) The galaxy being small has been a Star Wars thing since Star Wars existed. It never felt huge, it always felt like shit was next door. This is a commentary on the SW universe as a whole and can't really be levied at this film by itself.
Oh, I'm not saying every fan has, but still....the prequels are a pretty low bar. And a lot of the complaints, when you boil them down, surround world building, the size of the galaxy, and that the plot contrivances are a bit more than what they can suspend disbelief for. A lot of that comes from the prior films baggage. We've never seen force users not need a ton of training....
....until this film. Now we have Leia doing stuff that's far more powerful than any Jedi we've seen prior and Rey greatly increasing in power without training. Remember, this movie takes place literally minutes after The Force Awakens. I'm tempted to say that that'd be fine if this was a solo film, but even then, if you did even that, that makes Leia's space jaunt even worse since the only reason some people are handwaving it is she's a Skywalker / showed some bit of potential in the original trilogy / the previous EU, which doesn't even count anymore.
The film taking place literally minutes after The Force Awakens also harkens back to the world building and galaxy size. Did the galaxy seem like it was easy to zip around in before? Sure. Still, there was at least travel time. There's a whole part of the movie in the original of Luke traveling in the Falcon, training a bit, etc.
Now? We cut back immediately to Rey handing the saber over, the base being evac'd, etc., and subsequently have Rey leaving pretty soon after to be able to make it to rescue the Resistance. Finn and Rose are super duper fast in their ship that shouldn't have even been able to leave the Raddus (but why use their TIE's, fighters are useless..I guess haha).
2) The excuse for the resistance ship fleeing is that they were faster than the bulky Star Destroyers. It seems likely that this could be the case because they're smaller and have less mass. I'm not sure how this is a poor excuse.
There's definitely a strange contingent of people who wanted Poe to actually be right all the time and put way more importance in his presence than the film can justify.
There are other issues that might be more subjective, but these seem to be the major glaring issues that make no damn sense to me.
It's not about Poe, it's about the incompetence shown by the First Order to allow the story to happen as written makes them feel like the absolute worst threats in the Galaxy and how bad that must make the We only have 3 ship Resistance be. As TOGSolid said above, you have fighters and bombers in the slew of ships, blow them up. Yes, they handwave it, "We can't support you", but this makes no sense in the film because what does that even mean? The Resistance has no heavy resistance left except the one cruiser, their hangar is wrecked, their bridge just took a massive hit and presumably vacuumed their command staff out into space.
Essentially, the problem is Poe's not correct in the film....but if the bad guys were even slightly not being written to allow the movie to continue, he's actually correct. They should be dead, but that would not allow the themes and character beats to happen, so the bad guys are dumb....
Too dumb. I'm also resisting using space battles from previous movies / games / other Sci Fi franchises to ask "Why don't they just jump a few Star Destroyers away and have them come back in front of the Resistance ships. They have the coordinates, they should be able to do this" because, while valid I feel, people who are arguing against me don't seem to care.
Plot contrivances happen all the time in movies. Bad guys zig when they should zag, stuff like that. That's normal. The problem comes when it's enough to lessen their threat / make the good guys look bad because OMG how are they losing to these guys?!.
That's why I've finally evolved to where TLJ would be good / better if it wasn't a Star Wars movie, but there's so much weight from previous movies just in terms of world building, that it fails as part of the cinematic universe.
For example....
Luke's sacrifice at the end will apparently light the fire of Rebellion. That's great if this was a stand-alone.
But it shouldn't be needed. The time frame is so compressed, there should still be people who are alive that remember the Republic before the Empire. Given that, Luke should be an inspirational legend already. The final act of allowing 20 people to escape in a rusty old bucket of bolts should be nothing compared to blowing up the Death Star and, inevitably, getting credit for killing the Emperor. The Empire is still very recent memory, the FO should be facing a ridiculous rage / resistance for blowing up a star system, especially as it harkens back to the Death Star.
No, per the crawl, the FO took over between movies, movies that happen with basically no time between them.
That's why the galaxy feels even smaller than before and why I at least have problems with it. I like the bit with Luke and almost killing Solo. I like the hubris killing Snoke (even though it'd ridiculous he was there personally, but whatever).
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Before I saw the movie I heard there was some sort of controversy.
I saw it last night and I couldn't figure out what the controversy was all about.
Can anyone fill me in?
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but my biggest gripes:
I felt like the movie was a collection of cool scenes held together by a really, really dumb plot. The mutiny plotline was stupid. That the First Order didn't split their fleet and put the resistance in a position where they were trapped was stupid. The "fly to a planet, get a hacker, sneak on board the enemy flagship" plot was stupid. The kamikaze cruiser attack raises the question of why no one did before (at least at the Battle of Endor, it would have made sense to plow a cruiser into the Death Star superstructure under construction). The sandspeeder attack felt pretty stupid. Etc. The movie really felt to me like it was a series of excuses to have certain cool scenes. It didn't care much about having a coherent plot that made sense. It mostly just wanted to put people into certain situations so they could do certain cool things, and it didn't feel like there was much care given to how and why those scenes happened.
I hated how Luke's plotline ended. I enjoyed grumpy old Luke, but I think that Luke's death was both pointless and a thematic failure. The movie was ultimately about failure, and how people react to it, and move past it. And Luke never moves past his failure as a teacher. Yes, he confronts Kylo, but that's confronting the results of his failure, not his failure itself. I feel that his plot would have been much, much stronger if it ended with him teaching broom kid.
I thought that the movie was beautiful, that it was well acted, and that it often worked well on a scene-by-scene basis. But the overall plot and structure of the movie don't work for me.
I'm really somewhat surprised by some of the backlash to the backlash, the "it wasn't every super fan's personal fanfic and they can't even" and "just general nerds being nerds" dismissals. I get that people like the movie, and I will happily concede that there is a LOT to like. I just find the extent to which people can't see the other point of view a little surprising.
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Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
....until this film. Now we have Leia doing stuff that's far more powerful than any Jedi we've seen prior and Rey greatly increasing in power without training. Remember, this movie takes place literally minutes after The Force Awakens. I'm tempted to say that that'd be fine if this was a solo film, but even then, if you did even that, that makes Leia's space jaunt even worse since the only reason some people are handwaving it is she's a Skywalker / showed some bit of potential in the original trilogy / the previous EU, which doesn't even count anymore.
The bolded part is completely false. Leia in no way dude something more powerful than anyone else. She moved an object no more than 180lbs in a gravityless environment and survived maybe 5 minutes longer in space than a normal, unprotected human can. It looked impressive, but in actual power terms, it really was not.
Yoda moving the xwing and anikan surviving having his arms and legs chopped off and being burned alive by lava was far more powerful.
Oh, I'm not saying every fan has, but still....the prequels are a pretty low bar. And a lot of the complaints, when you boil them down, surround world building, the size of the galaxy, and that the plot contrivances are a bit more than what they can suspend disbelief for. A lot of that comes from the prior films baggage. We've never seen force users not need a ton of training....
....until this film. Now we have Leia doing stuff that's far more powerful than any Jedi we've seen prior and Rey greatly increasing in power without training. Remember, this movie takes place literally minutes after The Force Awakens. I'm tempted to say that that'd be fine if this was a solo film, but even then, if you did even that, that makes Leia's space jaunt even worse since the only reason some people are handwaving it is she's a Skywalker / showed some bit of potential in the original trilogy / the previous EU, which doesn't even count anymore.
The film taking place literally minutes after The Force Awakens also harkens back to the world building and galaxy size. Did the galaxy seem like it was easy to zip around in before? Sure. Still, there was at least travel time. There's a whole part of the movie in the original of Luke traveling in the Falcon, training a bit, etc.
Now? We cut back immediately to Rey handing the saber over, the base being evac'd, etc., and subsequently have Rey leaving pretty soon after to be able to make it to rescue the Resistance. Finn and Rose are super duper fast in their ship that shouldn't have even been able to leave the Raddus (but why use their TIE's, fighters are useless..I guess haha).
The PT wasn't an excuse, just a reminder that you're a bit late to throw that against the franchise. Literally almost every decision Disney's made has been done by pre-Lucas already, except they did it primarily in the EU.
Why are you assuming Leia wasn't trained by Luke in the years between ROTJ, and TFA? The OT heavily implied she was a Force sensitive, and overtly via Vader when he learnt Luke had a sister (which was later picked up in Legends) and once again in TFA. That's not handwaving, that's picking up a thread of continuity and pulling the trigger on film. Why would Leia being a (powerful) Force user be bad storytelling when the franchise has malted the audience over the head that some families are strong in the Force, as well the fact she had that ability in the OT, and even if she didn't it wouldn't be out of nowhere where she couldn't be a Force user since she is the daughter of Darth Vader, and sister to Luke Skywalker. The previous EU isn't in continuity, but the OT and PT is.
I agree the world building should be stricter and more coherent, but it's hardly the first time the world building has been sketchy in the movies. The movies are also unclear about what speeds some ships go, and the Falcon is a fast ship.
....until this film. Now we have Leia doing stuff that's far more powerful than any Jedi we've seen prior and Rey greatly increasing in power without training. Remember, this movie takes place literally minutes after The Force Awakens. I'm tempted to say that that'd be fine if this was a solo film, but even then, if you did even that, that makes Leia's space jaunt even worse since the only reason some people are handwaving it is she's a Skywalker / showed some bit of potential in the original trilogy / the previous EU, which doesn't even count anymore.
The bolded part is completely false. Leia in no way dude something more powerful than anyone else. She moved an object no more than 180lbs in a gravityless environment and survived maybe 5 minutes longer in space than a normal, unprotected human can. It looked impressive, but in actual power terms, it really was not.
Yoda moving the xwing and anikan surviving having his arms and legs chopped off and being burned alive by lava was far more powerful.
But a woman did it so she’s a mary sue
Never mind Luke fought and almost beat Darth Vader in ESB with like an afternoon of training
The bolded part is completely false. Leia in no way dude something more powerful than anyone else. She moved an object no more than 180lbs in a gravityless environment and survived maybe 5 minutes longer in space than a normal, unprotected human can. It looked impressive, but in actual power terms, it really was not.
Yoda moving the xwing and anikan surviving having his arms and legs chopped off and being burned alive by lava was far more powerful.
You're ignoring what she did prior to that.
She survived an explosion and was pulled out of the bridge at, literally, break neck speed. It was an explosive decompression. It looked more violent than a car crash. That beats Anakin burning up a bit.
She then did not freeze, retained consciousness, opened her eyes in a freezing vacuum, and willed herself through space back to the ship....a ship that would have still been moving. She would have actually had to reverse her direction, to, due to the prior explosive decompression that apparently she tanked like a boss.
Remember, Leia did all of this while being untrained. Anakin was trained and Yoda was a Master.
Luke, after being trained, couldn't even handle force lightning from the Emperor and do something Force related.
That feat from Leia was crazy. Think about it even from a sole movie point of view. What in TLJ justified her being able to do that? You'd have to go back to the originals to see that she even had potential, but even then....no training / she shouldn't have known how to do it based on what we know from the movies.
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Never mind Luke fought and almost beat Darth Vader in ESB with like an afternoon of training
Not at all and this is a pathetic comment. I'd be just as pissed if Finn or Poe did the same thing Leia did, or that small boy at the end with the broom. If he also survived explosive decompression, I'd be pissed.
And Luke did not almost beat Vader. Vader was toying with him and was in control the vast majority of the fight. The entire point of ESB was that Luke wasn't ready to face Vader.
Luke, justifiably, got his butt kicked.
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Even in the original trilogy, Luke was able to do stuff like pull lightsabers pretty quickly with almost no training. Luke's sister being able to pull herself towards a ship decades later with plenty of opportunities in the meantime to learn abou tth eforce isn't a huge deviation from what even the original trilogy showed.
Even in the original trilogy, Luke was able to do stuff like pull lightsabers pretty quickly with almost no training. Luke's sister being able to pull herself towards a ship decades later with plenty of opportunities in the meantime to learn abou tth eforce isn't a huge deviation from what even the original trilogy showed.
Luke didn't do it in vacuum, after an explosive decompression, tanking it with no problem and no training.
And as to your plenty of opportunities to learn about the Force....I'd be all on board with that if they showed it / referenced it / commented on it. Leia as another Jedi? Awesome.
They didn't do that.
The Emperor also should have pulled himself back up after being thrown down a shaft by Vader, but you know, whatever haha.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
edited December 2017
Leia's move was a new one because it's the first time I can think of someone using the Force to move themselves. Plus it basically comes out of nowhere, since they haven't exactly shown her doing crazy Jedi tricks previously. Not something that really threw me in the theater, but I remember going 'Huh, she can do that?'
Personally I think the weakest part of the story is Finn. Not that he's a bad character, but his story is the weakest of the bunch. They didn't do a good job of developing the relationship between him and Rosie, which made her line of 'fight to save what you love, not destroy what you hate' fail twice over. The first being that Finn doesn't exactly have a hate-boner for the First Order and a dubious survival instinct. So Finn learned a lesson he didn't need from someone who wasn't setup to deliver it. Never mind that saving Finn involved crashing her jet ski into him at 60mph or something. Ugh.
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Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited December 2017
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
Even in the original trilogy, Luke was able to do stuff like pull lightsabers pretty quickly with almost no training. Luke's sister being able to pull herself towards a ship decades later with plenty of opportunities in the meantime to learn abou tth eforce isn't a huge deviation from what even the original trilogy showed.
Luke didn't do it in vacuum, after an explosive decompression, tanking it with no problem and no training.
And as to your plenty of opportunities to learn about the Force....I'd be all on board with that if they showed it / referenced it / commented on it. Leia as another Jedi? Awesome.
They didn't do that.
The Emperor also should have pulled himself back up after being thrown down a shaft by Vader, but you know, whatever haha.
Being in a vacuum for a short period of time isn't a big deal, it's actually pretty accurate. Her velocity relative to the ship is probably fudgable as well. She starts off moving the same speed as the ship, so it depends on where the bridge window was relative to the direction they were going.
The truly inaccurate thing is her opening her eyes in space. I don't remember if she did that or not, but I believe you. I'd be willing to let that go for artistic purposes, but if "you aren't allowed to open your eyes in space" is a dealbreaker for you, that's fair.
As to the bolded in your quote? They did, it's the thing you are complaining about. You just want them to "tell, not show," which is generally considered the opposite of good storytelling for things that are obvious.
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
Being in a vacuum for a short period of time isn't a big deal, it's actually pretty accurate. Her velocity relative to the ship is probably fudgable as well. She starts off moving the same speed as the ship, so it depends on where the bridge window was relative to the direction they were going.
The truly inaccurate thing is her opening her eyes in space. I don't remember if she did that or not, but I believe you. I'd be willing to let that go for artistic purposes, but if "you aren't allowed to open your eyes in space" is a dealbreaker for you, that's fair.
As to the bolded in your quote? They did, it's the thing you are complaining about. You just want them to "tell, not show," which is generally considered the opposite of good storytelling for things that are obvious.
It's pedantic as hell on my part, so apologies, but she would have been moving faster than the ship since she was already moving ship speed when standing on the bridge. The decompression and ejection would have accelerated her. They also show the bridge was on the front of the ship, so....
I don't care about that specific point, by the way....once you can survive an explosion and ejection like that, speed is a nonissue....but just pointing out everything that she was able to handle.
Speaking of, it's not just the vacuum. She was conscious and alert enough to use force powers after the bridge exploded in a violent decompression that alone would have been enough to kill / knock out people. It's the total package. It's not like she just stepped out into space. She was ejected, quite violently, in an explosion caused by missiles / torpedoes that blew open the bridge.
As to the second, that's why I'm pairing it with the whole weight of the prior movies. If this was a stand-alone movie, sure, fine, OH CRAP SHE IS ALSO A SUPER BEING, and that's how they show it.
The weight of prior movies damages that here, though, because we've never seen her train, we've no indication she did or that she even has browsed it in her own time, and we've seen that you need training to be proficient with the Force.
Hell, Luke was somewhat trained, and he still willingly fell down a shaft in ESB and barely hung on when he hit the random antenna. He didn't even suffer an explosion that ripped him out of a starship at high velocity, he just lost a hand.
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I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
Why did Leia need to train with the force to move things with her mind, 10 year old padawans can do that, with enough time and even minimal practice an older person should be able to figure it out
If I found out I was sensitive in the force whenever I was on the shitter I'd be trying to move things with my mind, eventually I'd pick it up
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Doctor DetroitNot a doctorTree townRegistered Userregular
Why do we assume Leia had no training? And even if true, how about chalking it up to survival instinct?
Also, why do we assume Star Wars space behaves the same as our space?
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
No one says everyone must like it
But typically you want less controversy in your mega franchise
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
I would say instead that not everyone perceives the same things to be defects, and that the extent to which a person is bothered or not bothered by defects will vary greatly from person to person.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I don't understand the idea that this movie occurs minutes after TFA. I don't think anything actually backs that up. My impression is at least a few days have gone by for all of the story, except for Rey which picks up where she left off in TFA.
If we assume Rey's story is not in real time with the rest of the movie, until she heads to Snokes ship, then bare minimum 2 or 3 days have passed. We know this because actual days pass while Rey is convincing/training with Luke, but the resistance only has 18 hours or whatever it was of fuel.
Basically the movie starts at Reys last day with Luke, then flashes back to her first day when we get to her. Her final day with Luke is happening at the same time as the opening scene with the dreadnaught, roughly.
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
No one says everyone must like it
But typically you want less controversy in your mega franchise
The controversy is very niche. The masses, and therefore Disney, are not concerned with the nitpicks of the “hardcore fans”.
my in the moment reaction was that the trauma kickstarted an instinctive response. It's also possible that she was trained in between sagas. They showed just enough that she was force sensitive in TFA and prior to that scene in this movie for me to believe it was a conscious effort.
but then I realized it didn't really matter which version of events it was. I don't need the technical details of when and where leia learned to do that.
we've seen multiple times for 30 years most force learning is done by someone saying "reach out" when you're about to die. This was pretty consistent to all of that.
And the reaction of the cast to seeing it seemed appropriately shocked and awed but then they immediately jumped to having to save her life.
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
No one says everyone must like it
But typically you want less controversy in your mega franchise
The controversy is very niche. The masses, and therefore Disney, are not concerned with the nitpicks of the “hardcore fans”.
See no you’re doing it again. It’s not just hardcore fans coming out of this film with problems. It’s just not dud.
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I don't understand the idea that this movie occurs minutes after TFA. I don't think anything actually backs that up. My impression is at least a few days have gone by for all of the story, except for Rey which picks up where she left off in TFA.
If we assume Rey's story is not in real time with the rest of the movie, until she heads to Snokes ship, then bare minimum 2 or 3 days have passed. We know this because actual days pass while Rey is convincing/training with Luke, but the resistance only has 18 hours or whatever it was of fuel.
Basically the movie starts at Reys last day with Luke, then flashes back to her first day when we get to her. Her final day with Luke is happening at the same time as the opening scene with the dreadnaught, roughly.
That would make sense, but without any sort of reference point the audience assumes that everything is happening concurrently and it gets messy.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I don't understand the idea that this movie occurs minutes after TFA. I don't think anything actually backs that up. My impression is at least a few days have gone by for all of the story, except for Rey which picks up where she left off in TFA.
If we assume Rey's story is not in real time with the rest of the movie, until she heads to Snokes ship, then bare minimum 2 or 3 days have passed. We know this because actual days pass while Rey is convincing/training with Luke, but the resistance only has 18 hours or whatever it was of fuel.
Basically the movie starts at Reys last day with Luke, then flashes back to her first day when we get to her. Her final day with Luke is happening at the same time as the opening scene with the dreadnaught, roughly.
This scans fine but the movie doesn't make it explicit.
I'm not sure how they would make it explicit, beyond showing actual days passing for Rey, but not for the rest of the cast. They did explicitly give a time limit for the resistance (fuel reserves) and still have more than that amount of time passing for Rey. They did that. They didn't have an out of place "Three days ago" flash on the screen when going back to Rey, I'm not sure what else could have been done to make it more obvious, without some pretty big changes to the overall flow.
It's not the first movie to have characters in multiple places not necessarily at the exact same point in time.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
No one says everyone must like it
But typically you want less controversy in your mega franchise
The controversy is very niche. The masses, and therefore Disney, are not concerned with the nitpicks of the “hardcore fans”.
See no you’re doing it again. It’s not just hardcore fans coming out of this film with problems. It’s just not dud.
Considering people found it necessary to post triple, quadruple, quintiple reposts of their 1 star rating on Rottentomatoes user reviews, I can't help but feel it's way too overblown.
Like Wolfenstein 2 getting tanked on Steam because of a focused alt-right campaign.
jungleroomx on
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
I don't understand the idea that this movie occurs minutes after TFA. I don't think anything actually backs that up. My impression is at least a few days have gone by for all of the story, except for Rey which picks up where she left off in TFA.
If we assume Rey's story is not in real time with the rest of the movie, until she heads to Snokes ship, then bare minimum 2 or 3 days have passed. We know this because actual days pass while Rey is convincing/training with Luke, but the resistance only has 18 hours or whatever it was of fuel.
Basically the movie starts at Reys last day with Luke, then flashes back to her first day when we get to her. Her final day with Luke is happening at the same time as the opening scene with the dreadnaught, roughly.
This scans fine but the movie doesn't make it explicit.
I mean, it says really plainly that the bulk of the story for everyone (except Rey) takes place over about 18 hours. Rey, on the other hand, spends multiple days with Luke (we see multiple day/night cycles, we see her sleeping, Luke says "we start training tomorrow", etc).
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Not really going by RT reviews just word of mouth among friends, reviews from social media like Facebook, and video reviews.
I think at this point there is enough people saying very specific non-silly reasons they found the film lacking to put to bed the notion that it’s just fanboys crying about the death of their headcanon.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
No one says everyone must like it
But typically you want less controversy in your mega franchise
The controversy is very niche. The masses, and therefore Disney, are not concerned with the nitpicks of the “hardcore fans”.
See no you’re doing it again. It’s not just hardcore fans coming out of this film with problems. It’s just not dud.
I’m not doing anything again. In fact, the numbers are showing that hardcore fans and casual fans are pretty uniformly positive on the movie.
Having a critical view about a film doesn’t have to mean it isn’t popular, successful, and well made. The criticisms I keep seeing are coming down to personal taste which is fine but those that have them really want to expand that view to objectivity to I guess convince people who enjoyed the movie to accept their criticism as the only truth. Sorry, but it just rubs me the wrong way when it keeps happening repeatedly with these movies.
davidsdurions on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Not really going by RT reviews just word of mouth among friends, reviews from social media like Facebook, and video reviews.
And your evidence is circumstantial just like mine where everyone I know except 1 dude loved it, and all the video reviewers seemed really like it except for the casino portion except for 1 guy... who is a hardcore Star Wars fan.
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I'd say they're doing a better job than the prequels did. That doesn't absolve the reasonable criticisms, they are legit but not every fan has reacted to the film like that, it's SW tradition - starting with ESB.
Yeah but
1) The galaxy being small has been a Star Wars thing since Star Wars existed. It never felt huge, it always felt like shit was next door. This is a commentary on the SW universe as a whole and can't really be levied at this film by itself.
2) The excuse for the resistance ship fleeing is that they were faster than the bulky Star Destroyers. It seems likely that this could be the case because they're smaller and have less mass. I'm not sure how this is a poor excuse.
There's definitely a strange contingent of people who wanted Poe to actually be right all the time and put way more importance in his presence than the film can justify.
There are other issues that might be more subjective, but these seem to be the major glaring issues that make no damn sense to me.
Oh, I'm not saying every fan has, but still....the prequels are a pretty low bar. And a lot of the complaints, when you boil them down, surround world building, the size of the galaxy, and that the plot contrivances are a bit more than what they can suspend disbelief for. A lot of that comes from the prior films baggage. We've never seen force users not need a ton of training....
....until this film. Now we have Leia doing stuff that's far more powerful than any Jedi we've seen prior and Rey greatly increasing in power without training. Remember, this movie takes place literally minutes after The Force Awakens. I'm tempted to say that that'd be fine if this was a solo film, but even then, if you did even that, that makes Leia's space jaunt even worse since the only reason some people are handwaving it is she's a Skywalker / showed some bit of potential in the original trilogy / the previous EU, which doesn't even count anymore.
The film taking place literally minutes after The Force Awakens also harkens back to the world building and galaxy size. Did the galaxy seem like it was easy to zip around in before? Sure. Still, there was at least travel time. There's a whole part of the movie in the original of Luke traveling in the Falcon, training a bit, etc.
Now? We cut back immediately to Rey handing the saber over, the base being evac'd, etc., and subsequently have Rey leaving pretty soon after to be able to make it to rescue the Resistance. Finn and Rose are super duper fast in their ship that shouldn't have even been able to leave the Raddus (but why use their TIE's, fighters are useless..I guess haha).
It's not about Poe, it's about the incompetence shown by the First Order to allow the story to happen as written makes them feel like the absolute worst threats in the Galaxy and how bad that must make the We only have 3 ship Resistance be. As TOGSolid said above, you have fighters and bombers in the slew of ships, blow them up. Yes, they handwave it, "We can't support you", but this makes no sense in the film because what does that even mean? The Resistance has no heavy resistance left except the one cruiser, their hangar is wrecked, their bridge just took a massive hit and presumably vacuumed their command staff out into space.
Essentially, the problem is Poe's not correct in the film....but if the bad guys were even slightly not being written to allow the movie to continue, he's actually correct. They should be dead, but that would not allow the themes and character beats to happen, so the bad guys are dumb....
Too dumb. I'm also resisting using space battles from previous movies / games / other Sci Fi franchises to ask "Why don't they just jump a few Star Destroyers away and have them come back in front of the Resistance ships. They have the coordinates, they should be able to do this" because, while valid I feel, people who are arguing against me don't seem to care.
Plot contrivances happen all the time in movies. Bad guys zig when they should zag, stuff like that. That's normal. The problem comes when it's enough to lessen their threat / make the good guys look bad because OMG how are they losing to these guys?!.
That's why I've finally evolved to where TLJ would be good / better if it wasn't a Star Wars movie, but there's so much weight from previous movies just in terms of world building, that it fails as part of the cinematic universe.
For example....
Luke's sacrifice at the end will apparently light the fire of Rebellion. That's great if this was a stand-alone.
But it shouldn't be needed. The time frame is so compressed, there should still be people who are alive that remember the Republic before the Empire. Given that, Luke should be an inspirational legend already. The final act of allowing 20 people to escape in a rusty old bucket of bolts should be nothing compared to blowing up the Death Star and, inevitably, getting credit for killing the Emperor. The Empire is still very recent memory, the FO should be facing a ridiculous rage / resistance for blowing up a star system, especially as it harkens back to the Death Star.
No, per the crawl, the FO took over between movies, movies that happen with basically no time between them.
That's why the galaxy feels even smaller than before and why I at least have problems with it. I like the bit with Luke and almost killing Solo. I like the hubris killing Snoke (even though it'd ridiculous he was there personally, but whatever).
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I obviously can't speak for everyone, but my biggest gripes:
I thought that the movie was beautiful, that it was well acted, and that it often worked well on a scene-by-scene basis. But the overall plot and structure of the movie don't work for me.
I'm really somewhat surprised by some of the backlash to the backlash, the "it wasn't every super fan's personal fanfic and they can't even" and "just general nerds being nerds" dismissals. I get that people like the movie, and I will happily concede that there is a LOT to like. I just find the extent to which people can't see the other point of view a little surprising.
The bolded part is completely false. Leia in no way dude something more powerful than anyone else. She moved an object no more than 180lbs in a gravityless environment and survived maybe 5 minutes longer in space than a normal, unprotected human can. It looked impressive, but in actual power terms, it really was not.
Yoda moving the xwing and anikan surviving having his arms and legs chopped off and being burned alive by lava was far more powerful.
The PT wasn't an excuse, just a reminder that you're a bit late to throw that against the franchise. Literally almost every decision Disney's made has been done by pre-Lucas already, except they did it primarily in the EU.
Why are you assuming Leia wasn't trained by Luke in the years between ROTJ, and TFA? The OT heavily implied she was a Force sensitive, and overtly via Vader when he learnt Luke had a sister (which was later picked up in Legends) and once again in TFA. That's not handwaving, that's picking up a thread of continuity and pulling the trigger on film. Why would Leia being a (powerful) Force user be bad storytelling when the franchise has malted the audience over the head that some families are strong in the Force, as well the fact she had that ability in the OT, and even if she didn't it wouldn't be out of nowhere where she couldn't be a Force user since she is the daughter of Darth Vader, and sister to Luke Skywalker. The previous EU isn't in continuity, but the OT and PT is.
I agree the world building should be stricter and more coherent, but it's hardly the first time the world building has been sketchy in the movies. The movies are also unclear about what speeds some ships go, and the Falcon is a fast ship.
But a woman did it so she’s a mary sue
Never mind Luke fought and almost beat Darth Vader in ESB with like an afternoon of training
My opinion has really turned around on this one, it’s definitely top 3 for me now
She survived an explosion and was pulled out of the bridge at, literally, break neck speed. It was an explosive decompression. It looked more violent than a car crash. That beats Anakin burning up a bit.
She then did not freeze, retained consciousness, opened her eyes in a freezing vacuum, and willed herself through space back to the ship....a ship that would have still been moving. She would have actually had to reverse her direction, to, due to the prior explosive decompression that apparently she tanked like a boss.
Remember, Leia did all of this while being untrained. Anakin was trained and Yoda was a Master.
Luke, after being trained, couldn't even handle force lightning from the Emperor and do something Force related.
That feat from Leia was crazy. Think about it even from a sole movie point of view. What in TLJ justified her being able to do that? You'd have to go back to the originals to see that she even had potential, but even then....no training / she shouldn't have known how to do it based on what we know from the movies.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Not at all and this is a pathetic comment. I'd be just as pissed if Finn or Poe did the same thing Leia did, or that small boy at the end with the broom. If he also survived explosive decompression, I'd be pissed.
And Luke did not almost beat Vader. Vader was toying with him and was in control the vast majority of the fight. The entire point of ESB was that Luke wasn't ready to face Vader.
Luke, justifiably, got his butt kicked.
PSN: Bizazedo
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Luke didn't do it in vacuum, after an explosive decompression, tanking it with no problem and no training.
And as to your plenty of opportunities to learn about the Force....I'd be all on board with that if they showed it / referenced it / commented on it. Leia as another Jedi? Awesome.
They didn't do that.
The Emperor also should have pulled himself back up after being thrown down a shaft by Vader, but you know, whatever haha.
PSN: Bizazedo
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Personally I think the weakest part of the story is Finn. Not that he's a bad character, but his story is the weakest of the bunch. They didn't do a good job of developing the relationship between him and Rosie, which made her line of 'fight to save what you love, not destroy what you hate' fail twice over. The first being that Finn doesn't exactly have a hate-boner for the First Order and a dubious survival instinct. So Finn learned a lesson he didn't need from someone who wasn't setup to deliver it. Never mind that saving Finn involved crashing her jet ski into him at 60mph or something. Ugh.
Even though I loved the movie there is obviously flaws in the way it chose to convey its message that caused a sizable portion of the audience to either not receive it or outright feel like it didn’t send it well.
Being in a vacuum for a short period of time isn't a big deal, it's actually pretty accurate. Her velocity relative to the ship is probably fudgable as well. She starts off moving the same speed as the ship, so it depends on where the bridge window was relative to the direction they were going.
The truly inaccurate thing is her opening her eyes in space. I don't remember if she did that or not, but I believe you. I'd be willing to let that go for artistic purposes, but if "you aren't allowed to open your eyes in space" is a dealbreaker for you, that's fair.
As to the bolded in your quote? They did, it's the thing you are complaining about. You just want them to "tell, not show," which is generally considered the opposite of good storytelling for things that are obvious.
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I like to think it is possible for different people to like different things without their necessarily being something defective with it. In fact, I would say that is almost strictly necessary for art.
It's pedantic as hell on my part, so apologies, but she would have been moving faster than the ship since she was already moving ship speed when standing on the bridge. The decompression and ejection would have accelerated her. They also show the bridge was on the front of the ship, so....
I don't care about that specific point, by the way....once you can survive an explosion and ejection like that, speed is a nonissue....but just pointing out everything that she was able to handle.
Speaking of, it's not just the vacuum. She was conscious and alert enough to use force powers after the bridge exploded in a violent decompression that alone would have been enough to kill / knock out people. It's the total package. It's not like she just stepped out into space. She was ejected, quite violently, in an explosion caused by missiles / torpedoes that blew open the bridge.
As to the second, that's why I'm pairing it with the whole weight of the prior movies. If this was a stand-alone movie, sure, fine, OH CRAP SHE IS ALSO A SUPER BEING, and that's how they show it.
The weight of prior movies damages that here, though, because we've never seen her train, we've no indication she did or that she even has browsed it in her own time, and we've seen that you need training to be proficient with the Force.
Hell, Luke was somewhat trained, and he still willingly fell down a shaft in ESB and barely hung on when he hit the random antenna. He didn't even suffer an explosion that ripped him out of a starship at high velocity, he just lost a hand.
PSN: Bizazedo
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But, like, why did nobody say anything?
Is this commonly expected behaviour?
Presumably they did but they were too busy trying to keep her and themselves alive to dwell on it.
For art yes
For entertainment especially from a billions dollar franchise? Disney might disagree with that.
If I found out I was sensitive in the force whenever I was on the shitter I'd be trying to move things with my mind, eventually I'd pick it up
Also, why do we assume Star Wars space behaves the same as our space?
I can't think of a piece of popular media in recent memory that everyone liked.
No one says everyone must like it
But typically you want less controversy in your mega franchise
I would say instead that not everyone perceives the same things to be defects, and that the extent to which a person is bothered or not bothered by defects will vary greatly from person to person.
If we assume Rey's story is not in real time with the rest of the movie, until she heads to Snokes ship, then bare minimum 2 or 3 days have passed. We know this because actual days pass while Rey is convincing/training with Luke, but the resistance only has 18 hours or whatever it was of fuel.
Basically the movie starts at Reys last day with Luke, then flashes back to her first day when we get to her. Her final day with Luke is happening at the same time as the opening scene with the dreadnaught, roughly.
The controversy is very niche. The masses, and therefore Disney, are not concerned with the nitpicks of the “hardcore fans”.
but then I realized it didn't really matter which version of events it was. I don't need the technical details of when and where leia learned to do that.
we've seen multiple times for 30 years most force learning is done by someone saying "reach out" when you're about to die. This was pretty consistent to all of that.
And the reaction of the cast to seeing it seemed appropriately shocked and awed but then they immediately jumped to having to save her life.
See no you’re doing it again. It’s not just hardcore fans coming out of this film with problems. It’s just not dud.
That would make sense, but without any sort of reference point the audience assumes that everything is happening concurrently and it gets messy.
This scans fine but the movie doesn't make it explicit.
It's not the first movie to have characters in multiple places not necessarily at the exact same point in time.
Considering people found it necessary to post triple, quadruple, quintiple reposts of their 1 star rating on Rottentomatoes user reviews, I can't help but feel it's way too overblown.
Like Wolfenstein 2 getting tanked on Steam because of a focused alt-right campaign.
I mean, it says really plainly that the bulk of the story for everyone (except Rey) takes place over about 18 hours. Rey, on the other hand, spends multiple days with Luke (we see multiple day/night cycles, we see her sleeping, Luke says "we start training tomorrow", etc).
I’m not doing anything again. In fact, the numbers are showing that hardcore fans and casual fans are pretty uniformly positive on the movie.
Having a critical view about a film doesn’t have to mean it isn’t popular, successful, and well made. The criticisms I keep seeing are coming down to personal taste which is fine but those that have them really want to expand that view to objectivity to I guess convince people who enjoyed the movie to accept their criticism as the only truth. Sorry, but it just rubs me the wrong way when it keeps happening repeatedly with these movies.
And your evidence is circumstantial just like mine where everyone I know except 1 dude loved it, and all the video reviewers seemed really like it except for the casino portion except for 1 guy... who is a hardcore Star Wars fan.
Not exactly scientific.