So after this one it seems like they were going with a meditation on the main 3 characters in this trilogy and how they end/pass the torch.
TFA is about Han Solo, and its a messy scramble fly be the seat of your pants where people make bad decision but with good intentions
TLJ is about Luke and is a meditation on the force and regret and figuring out how to move on from your mistakes
Which means the last one would have been about Leia, war and hope, which seems like it would be hard because they lost Fisher
I actually think it's kind of a problem that so many fan theories keep wanting to redeem kylo.
He's straight up telling and showing us constantly that he's the bad guy and we keep going "you're just an angry young man, let's show you how to love"
Redemption is more interesting.
Also, he's cute.
Pain heals. Chicks dig scars.
+1
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
They said they wouldn't resurrect her with CGI either
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I mean fuck you watch this movie and you see him falter in his dedication to the path he's on over and over. He doesn't fire the missile at the bridge. He reaches out to Rey. He begs her to join him so he isn't alone. He destroys his master.
Like, he's not a good guy by any stretch, but he's absolutely redeemable. He just considers himself a monster and acts accordingly. If Darth fucking Vader is redeemable, you know the guy who started off his Dark Side kick by slaughtering a bunch of innocent children who he was supposed to be protecting in cold blood and only went downhill from there, then Kylo Ren can be. Kylo Ren hasn't done half the horrific shit Vader did!
ooooooohhh
What if this was all supposed to be building to Leia redeeming her son? OT was a son (Luke) redeeming his father. ST would be a mother (Leia) redeeming her son. The twins save both generations of their family and they both fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force.
So after this one it seems like they were going with a meditation on the main 3 characters in this trilogy and how they end/pass the torch.
TFA is about Han Solo, and its a messy scramble fly be the seat of your pants where people make bad decision but with good intentions
TLJ is about Luke and is a meditation on the force and regret and figuring out how to move on from your mistakes
Which means the last one would have been about Leia, war and hope, which seems like it would be hard because they lost Fisher
Yeah I recall they mentioned Leia was supposed to have a huge part in 9 but with her death it really hurts the overall production.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I mean, Vader was a straight up child murderer and he got his redemption. If anything, Kylo is a more fully fledged, well written character than Vader ever was. You see the good and the ugly, both in full effect. I honestly don't know where they're going to go with the story (which is exciting!), but I don't think redemption is 100% out of the question.
We didn't know exactly what he had done when he was redeemed. Also, his arc is way more interesting (the PT had good ideas, just executed in about the worst way while still being mostly coherent films).
Like, I'm of the opinion that a core element of Star Wars is that nobody is beyond redemption. It's easy to think they are, because you can then paint them into a place where you are okay with destroying them, but actually viewing someone as literally a monster with no redeeming features now or ever is actually just a way to make it easy to hate them, and that's the path of the Dark Side. If you are truly a virtuous soul, you'll take the hard path and try to redeem them if you can, stopping them from doing evil if you can't. I think that's important. I dunno if they will go with it, but I hope they do. I think that's a powerful essence of the setting narrative.
+5
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
I mean fuck you watch this movie and you see him falter in his dedication to the path he's on over and over. He doesn't fire the missile at the bridge. He reaches out to Rey. He begs her to join him so he isn't alone. He destroys his master.
Like, he's not a good guy by any stretch, but he's absolutely redeemable. He just considers himself a monster and acts accordingly. If Darth fucking Vader is redeemable, you know the guy who started off his Dark Side kick by slaughtering a bunch of innocent children who he was supposed to be protecting in cold blood and only went downhill from there, then Kylo Ren can be. Kylo Ren hasn't done half the horrific shit Vader did!
ooooooohhh
What if this was all supposed to be building to Leia redeeming her son? OT was a son (Luke) redeeming his father. ST would be a mother (Leia) redeeming her son. The twins save both generations of their family and they both fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force.
I feel like thematically that would work really, really well and I would have loved to see that.
I just feel like, realistically, I don't see how any approach other than opening episode XI with Leia's funeral (or the aftermath thereof) works out, in a purely logistical/personnel manner. Maybe news of her death, unrelated to anything about the war, shakes Kylo in some way that has repercussions throughout the movie. You know? It's one thing for him to kill his own father in the heat of a battle. It's another entirely to hear that his mom was just taken away from him by something as mundane as the ravages of old age.
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
I mean, it’s not like we’ve been given an opportunity to see a force user get blown into space before
I know we aren't supposed to care about EU stuff, but I remember one with one of lukes new jedi X-wing pilots being the last survivor in a big battle and his X-wing was inoperable and open to space so he went into a force trance for hours until he was found.
Pretty sure Luke also did a vacuum walk across a hangar once because the atmospheric shields had been destroyed, or something like that. EU Luke did a lot of things.
In the Corellian trilogy he crossed a large open space where most of the atmosphere had been burned away by the activation of the giant fusion generator in the center which the residents had just assumed was an artificial sun for making the station habitable.
I mean fuck you watch this movie and you see him falter in his dedication to the path he's on over and over. He doesn't fire the missile at the bridge. He reaches out to Rey. He begs her to join him so he isn't alone. He destroys his master.
Like, he's not a good guy by any stretch, but he's absolutely redeemable. He just considers himself a monster and acts accordingly. If Darth fucking Vader is redeemable, you know the guy who started off his Dark Side kick by slaughtering a bunch of innocent children who he was supposed to be protecting in cold blood and only went downhill from there, then Kylo Ren can be. Kylo Ren hasn't done half the horrific shit Vader did!
ooooooohhh
What if this was all supposed to be building to Leia redeeming her son? OT was a son (Luke) redeeming his father. ST would be a mother (Leia) redeeming her son. The twins save both generations of their family and they both fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force.
I feel like thematically that would work really, really well and I would have loved to see that.
I just feel like, realistically, I don't see how any approach other than opening episode XI with Leia's funeral (or the aftermath thereof) works out, in a purely logistical/personnel manner. Maybe news of her death, unrelated to anything about the war, shakes Kylo in some war that has repercussions throughout the movie. You know? It's one thing for him to kill his own father in the heat of a battle. It's another entirely to hear that his mom was just taken away from him by something as mundane as the ravages of old age.
or more that he had not control over the situation. There was not choice for him to make, it just happened.
I've been thinking really hard about it, and I'd be okay with Kylo getting a redemption arc...but I wouldn't be happy with DJ getting one.
For some reason, I find DJ's actions more monstrous than Kylo's, despite Kylo murdering an entire village in TFA. (I mean, not personally, but he ordered their execution...)
I've been thinking really hard about it, and I'd be okay with Kylo getting a redemption arc...but I wouldn't be happy with DJ getting one.
For some reason, I find DJ's actions more monstrous than Kylo's, despite Kylo murdering an entire village in TFA. (I mean, not personally, but he ordered their execution...)
Help me sort out these feeeeeeeeeelings
You hate people with vocal issues.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I've been thinking really hard about it, and I'd be okay with Kylo getting a redemption arc...but I wouldn't be happy with DJ getting one.
For some reason, I find DJ's actions more monstrous than Kylo's, despite Kylo murdering an entire village in TFA. (I mean, not personally, but he ordered their execution...)
Help me sort out these feeeeeeeeeelings
Because you totally thought DJ was misunderstood and going to turn out to be a good fellow. You know evil dude in the black cloak and scary mask being all evil with his evil-voice is gonna be bad.
I've been thinking really hard about it, and I'd be okay with Kylo getting a redemption arc...but I wouldn't be happy with DJ getting one.
For some reason, I find DJ's actions more monstrous than Kylo's, despite Kylo murdering an entire village in TFA. (I mean, not personally, but he ordered their execution...)
Help me sort out these feeeeeeeeeelings
I don’t feel too strongly against DJ. He’s clearly not trust worthy and holds no loyalties but he was also never malicious or cruel. I don’t want a redemption arc for him but I do hope he shows up again. I think a character like him being involved makes for a more interesting story.
I've been thinking really hard about it, and I'd be okay with Kylo getting a redemption arc...but I wouldn't be happy with DJ getting one.
For some reason, I find DJ's actions more monstrous than Kylo's, despite Kylo murdering an entire village in TFA. (I mean, not personally, but he ordered their execution...)
Help me sort out these feeeeeeeeeelings
I don’t feel too strongly against DJ. He’s clearly not trust worthy and holds no loyalties but he was also never malicious or cruel. I don’t want a redemption arc for him but I do hope he shows up again. I think a character like him being involved makes for a more interesting story.
An actual scoundrel instead of the scoundrel with a heart of gold we got in OT.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It's not like Anakin got to live out his days lounging at a resort after his redemption. He turned his back on the Dark Side and saved his son in the process. Then he died.
Kylo shouldn't get to be a good guy at the end of this. I'm ok with his redemption wrt The Force, but justice needs to be served. The man who killed Han Solo shouldn't be the hero of a Star Wars movie.
+3
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
If DJ is in the next film, I hope they can keep him as an absolute opportunist, willing to work the side that benefits him.
+6
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
The worst part of DJ is Benicio Del Toro’s lack of range.
I dunno I think it's cheap to say "you get your redemption and then you die so you never have to live with the consequences of your actions, having come to realise how fucked up they were"
It's really easy to redeem yourself and die. You don't actually need to be challenged by your past. Kylo Ren is redeemed, and then has to live the rest of his life with the burden of his own acts.
That's much more interesting. You can't say "you can only be redeemed if you die doing it," you say that redemption is a path and you start walking that path, knowing it will be hard.
What I'd want is DJ working for the first order up until the resistance can offer him more. A pay off of he's literally in it for who can benefit him at the time.
And how dare you guys insult the range of Antonio Banderas.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I dunno I think it's cheap to say "you get your redemption and then you die so you never have to live with the consequences of your actions, having come to realise how fucked up they were"
It's really easy to redeem yourself and die. You don't actually need to be challenged by your past. Kylo Ren is redeemed, and then has to live the rest of his life with the burden of his own acts.
That's much more interesting. You can't say "you can only be redeemed if you die doing it," you say that redemption is a path and you start walking that path, knowing it will be hard.
The consequence of his actions is that he's too monstrous to live.
DJ also seems to be a symptom of what the casino planet’s scenes touched on. Both sides were funneling money to the rich and neglecting the poor. The rebellion is demonstrably the just side but they’d gotten caught up in trying to fight the First Order instead of protecting the common folk.
I dunno I think it's cheap to say "you get your redemption and then you die so you never have to live with the consequences of your actions, having come to realise how fucked up they were"
It's really easy to redeem yourself and die. You don't actually need to be challenged by your past. Kylo Ren is redeemed, and then has to live the rest of his life with the burden of his own acts.
That's much more interesting. You can't say "you can only be redeemed if you die doing it," you say that redemption is a path and you start walking that path, knowing it will be hard.
The consequence of his actions is that he's too monstrous to live.
And that would be an interesting discussion to have in the setting! We have Kylo Ren, he has surrendered. Some will vouch for his desire to use his power for good. Others desire harder justice or revenge.
Dying is easy. Going on trial? Trying to do good? Trying to fix what you broke? That's hard. I want to see Kylo Ren do that.
+5
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I dunno I think it's cheap to say "you get your redemption and then you die so you never have to live with the consequences of your actions, having come to realise how fucked up they were"
It's really easy to redeem yourself and die. You don't actually need to be challenged by your past. Kylo Ren is redeemed, and then has to live the rest of his life with the burden of his own acts.
That's much more interesting. You can't say "you can only be redeemed if you die doing it," you say that redemption is a path and you start walking that path, knowing it will be hard.
The consequence of his actions is that he's too monstrous to live.
And that would be an interesting discussion to have in the setting! We have Kylo Ren, he has surrendered. Some will vouch for his desire to use his power for good. Others desire harder justice or revenge.
Dying is easy. Going on trial? Trying to do good? Trying to fix what you broke? That's hard. I want to see Kylo Ren do that.
I don't have any particular desire for Space Nuremburg trials, and then Space Rommel eating poison.
+1
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Like, in real life there is a guy called Joshua Balhyi, you may know his nom de guerre as General Butt Naked.
He was a fucking nutcase who fought in the Liberian Civil War. He killed and ate people, he committed horrific atrocities. He went as far down the path of wanton destructive evil as possible.
He now lives as a Christian priest, who speaks out against atrocities, who believes every single thing he ever did was wrong, who absolutely believes he deserves death, and has said he will happily be tried at the Hague for War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, but will try to do as much good with the life he has left in order to try to counteract the absolutely nightmarish acts he committed when younger.
So people can and do walk away from those lives. In fact fuck it! Kissinger! McNamara! Truman! Killed millions! But what is more interesting than "you are a monster, now die," "no I am no longer a monster, I will make this sacrifice" is "I am no longer a monster, I turn away from that path. Judge me as you will, do with me as you will. I will try to do right with what I now have."
Plus you even have the thing where the Dark Side literally drives people insane, twists them into evil and darkness. I think a redemptive arc where Ben Solo has to live with his past is faaaaarr more interesting.
I dunno I think it's cheap to say "you get your redemption and then you die so you never have to live with the consequences of your actions, having come to realise how fucked up they were"
It's really easy to redeem yourself and die. You don't actually need to be challenged by your past. Kylo Ren is redeemed, and then has to live the rest of his life with the burden of his own acts.
That's much more interesting. You can't say "you can only be redeemed if you die doing it," you say that redemption is a path and you start walking that path, knowing it will be hard.
The consequence of his actions is that he's too monstrous to live.
And that would be an interesting discussion to have in the setting! We have Kylo Ren, he has surrendered. Some will vouch for his desire to use his power for good. Others desire harder justice or revenge.
Dying is easy. Going on trial? Trying to do good? Trying to fix what you broke? That's hard. I want to see Kylo Ren do that.
I don't have any particular desire for Space Nuremburg trials, and then Space Rommel eating poison.
I do! If you can have Space Nazis you can have Space Nuremberg!
Leia's move was a new one because it's the first time I can think of someone using the Force to move themselves.
Sigh.
She didn't move herself - she pulled on the ship. Literally Force use 101, no?
Edit: That is, at least, my interpretation. But, WTF knows - space magic, eh?
Force users also use the force to move themselves plenty. They aren’t making 30 foot leaps through the air because they never skip leg day.
Exactly. Jedi may not be able to fly in normal gravity but they sure as hell can leap like crazy so the ability to do that in zero g is way more than sufficient to gently propel an adult woman without needing any excessive force required.
Leia's move was a new one because it's the first time I can think of someone using the Force to move themselves.
Sigh.
She didn't move herself - she pulled on the ship. Literally Force use 101, no?
Edit: That is, at least, my interpretation. But, WTF knows - space magic, eh?
Force users also use the force to move themselves plenty. They aren’t making 30 foot leaps through the air because they never skip leg day.
Exactly. Jedi may not be able to fly in normal gravity but they sure as hell can leap like crazy so the ability to do that in zero g is way more than sufficient to gently propel an adult woman without needing any excessive force required.
It's magic. The Force can do whatever the story requires of it.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
Ham-fisted redemption messages where they don't tie him up as a loose end are all well and good where thematically appropriate, but what will be done with the rest of the movie? Who's left to fight that's good enough to be in the "big bad" role - Hux? Captain Kenny come back for a third death? A new villain they introduce and kill in the last 30-60 minutes? Or maybe just redeem him at the very end, roll credits and greedily cash him in on future movie materials?
This could have been something if they did it in a place where they could have appropriately handled it(i.e. the throne room in the second movie, make it a fake Snoke or whatever and make Ben actually turn back there), but I think the third movie in a trilogy is the wrong place to try to make a turn like that for the result we're talking about.
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TFA is about Han Solo, and its a messy scramble fly be the seat of your pants where people make bad decision but with good intentions
TLJ is about Luke and is a meditation on the force and regret and figuring out how to move on from your mistakes
Which means the last one would have been about Leia, war and hope, which seems like it would be hard because they lost Fisher
Pain heals. Chicks dig scars.
ooooooohhh
What if this was all supposed to be building to Leia redeeming her son? OT was a son (Luke) redeeming his father. ST would be a mother (Leia) redeeming her son. The twins save both generations of their family and they both fulfill the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force.
Force users also use the force to move themselves plenty. They aren’t making 30 foot leaps through the air because they never skip leg day.
Yeah I recall they mentioned Leia was supposed to have a huge part in 9 but with her death it really hurts the overall production.
pleasepaypreacher.net
We didn't know exactly what he had done when he was redeemed. Also, his arc is way more interesting (the PT had good ideas, just executed in about the worst way while still being mostly coherent films).
Seems... unlikely now however
If Rey redeemed Kylo though...
Like, I'm of the opinion that a core element of Star Wars is that nobody is beyond redemption. It's easy to think they are, because you can then paint them into a place where you are okay with destroying them, but actually viewing someone as literally a monster with no redeeming features now or ever is actually just a way to make it easy to hate them, and that's the path of the Dark Side. If you are truly a virtuous soul, you'll take the hard path and try to redeem them if you can, stopping them from doing evil if you can't. I think that's important. I dunno if they will go with it, but I hope they do. I think that's a powerful essence of the setting narrative.
I feel like thematically that would work really, really well and I would have loved to see that.
I just feel like, realistically, I don't see how any approach other than opening episode XI with Leia's funeral (or the aftermath thereof) works out, in a purely logistical/personnel manner. Maybe news of her death, unrelated to anything about the war, shakes Kylo in some way that has repercussions throughout the movie. You know? It's one thing for him to kill his own father in the heat of a battle. It's another entirely to hear that his mom was just taken away from him by something as mundane as the ravages of old age.
or more that he had not control over the situation. There was not choice for him to make, it just happened.
For some reason, I find DJ's actions more monstrous than Kylo's, despite Kylo murdering an entire village in TFA. (I mean, not personally, but he ordered their execution...)
Help me sort out these feeeeeeeeeelings
Absolute sacrifice of Hux
You hate people with vocal issues.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Because you totally thought DJ was misunderstood and going to turn out to be a good fellow. You know evil dude in the black cloak and scary mask being all evil with his evil-voice is gonna be bad.
The betrayal hurts more this way
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I don’t feel too strongly against DJ. He’s clearly not trust worthy and holds no loyalties but he was also never malicious or cruel. I don’t want a redemption arc for him but I do hope he shows up again. I think a character like him being involved makes for a more interesting story.
An actual scoundrel instead of the scoundrel with a heart of gold we got in OT.
pleasepaypreacher.net
They were going to execute him.
He was never going to do that until they got caught. He has a view of the world that makes a degree of sense, and he accepts it might be wrong.
I thought DJ wasn't, like, sympathetic? But he's not a monster. He only does what... most people would do?
Kylo shouldn't get to be a good guy at the end of this. I'm ok with his redemption wrt The Force, but justice needs to be served. The man who killed Han Solo shouldn't be the hero of a Star Wars movie.
It's really easy to redeem yourself and die. You don't actually need to be challenged by your past. Kylo Ren is redeemed, and then has to live the rest of his life with the burden of his own acts.
That's much more interesting. You can't say "you can only be redeemed if you die doing it," you say that redemption is a path and you start walking that path, knowing it will be hard.
And how dare you guys insult the range of Antonio Banderas.
pleasepaypreacher.net
The consequence of his actions is that he's too monstrous to live.
As your attorney, I advise you to re-examine this statement.
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I stand by what I said!
And that would be an interesting discussion to have in the setting! We have Kylo Ren, he has surrendered. Some will vouch for his desire to use his power for good. Others desire harder justice or revenge.
Dying is easy. Going on trial? Trying to do good? Trying to fix what you broke? That's hard. I want to see Kylo Ren do that.
I don't have any particular desire for Space Nuremburg trials, and then Space Rommel eating poison.
He was a fucking nutcase who fought in the Liberian Civil War. He killed and ate people, he committed horrific atrocities. He went as far down the path of wanton destructive evil as possible.
He now lives as a Christian priest, who speaks out against atrocities, who believes every single thing he ever did was wrong, who absolutely believes he deserves death, and has said he will happily be tried at the Hague for War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, but will try to do as much good with the life he has left in order to try to counteract the absolutely nightmarish acts he committed when younger.
So people can and do walk away from those lives. In fact fuck it! Kissinger! McNamara! Truman! Killed millions! But what is more interesting than "you are a monster, now die," "no I am no longer a monster, I will make this sacrifice" is "I am no longer a monster, I turn away from that path. Judge me as you will, do with me as you will. I will try to do right with what I now have."
Plus you even have the thing where the Dark Side literally drives people insane, twists them into evil and darkness. I think a redemptive arc where Ben Solo has to live with his past is faaaaarr more interesting.
I do! If you can have Space Nazis you can have Space Nuremberg!
Exactly. Jedi may not be able to fly in normal gravity but they sure as hell can leap like crazy so the ability to do that in zero g is way more than sufficient to gently propel an adult woman without needing any excessive force required.
It's magic. The Force can do whatever the story requires of it.
I think that the end I want to see for Ben Solo is living alone on Luke's island, basically ending up like Napoleon on St. Helena.
This could have been something if they did it in a place where they could have appropriately handled it(i.e. the throne room in the second movie, make it a fake Snoke or whatever and make Ben actually turn back there), but I think the third movie in a trilogy is the wrong place to try to make a turn like that for the result we're talking about.