So @Dhalphir et al, I have a question about my DPS-readiness on my BM hunter, ilevel 932, no buffs.
Against a regular target dummy, I average about 1.35M DPS with a Core Hound Insanity.
Went into LFR Varithamas, my real performance was 1.06M DPS.
Where does that put me in terms of readiness for raids/mythic+s? Obviously I know it's more complicated than just my pure DPS numbers, but I'm having a really hard time getting a sense of where I'm supposed to be for what, especially since a lot of PUGs seem to list insane requirements. I tried looking at the Warcraft Logs site, but I don't even know where to start parsing, cuz people are at all different ilevels possibly slumming it in lower tier raids, etc..
Getting within 75% of your dummy DPS on your first time on a raid boss is pretty solid. And your output is good for your item level. Best way to evaluate yourself is to use the warcraftlogs uploader to create your own logs
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
After you have logs of yourself best thing to do is to find other comparable logs and work out what you can do better.
To search for compatible logs you can go to https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/17 and use the dropdown at the top to narrow your search. Select the boss you want, the difficulty, sort by class and item level, and then go down the list looking for a log with a similar length kill time to your log, and a similar number of players in the raid.
From there it's kind of hard to give a "quick" guide to comparing logs because there is SO much information to look at and it will be different for every class but I'd be happy to do a quick one for you if you post your log link, then you can get an idea of what you're looking for after that.
The caveat here is that a few specs don't have someone actively maintaining them, and for many others their spec suggestions still "need work." But even for those specs, you can get a good view on things like "You used this cooldown twice but the fight was long enough you could have used it 4-5 times," which is good for looking back and figuring out what you need to work on. For me as a healer, it was always using my shorter cooldowns more often, and this helped me see just how much I was leaving on the table.
It also provides a nice, slightly more accessible (IMO) summary of what's going on specific to you in a fight.
On YT, looking at Taliesen and Evitel on 7.3.5! This patch turned out to be quite the rollercoaster, but here you can see the whole thing and the several changes and how, despite all, the community sure took it easy and showed their appreciation for all the hard work that -
I took a closer look at some DPS logs to illustrate my point.
I looked at Havoc Demon Hunter logs from Heroic Varimathras. I chose Havoc because I understand the spec, and I chose Varimathras because it's a fight that tends not to have too many weird deaths or chaotic nonsense, it's the closest thing to a Patchwerk fight that this tier has, minimal RNG affecting DPS.
I picked four logs, all roughly the same kill time, within 20 seconds of one another.
A 99% rank, one of my own at 89%, a 49% rank, and a 16% log.
Now, the main things you look at when evaluating a Havoc DH log are;
1. Annihilation and Chaos Strike usage. This is our big damage ability, costs resources and is where most of our damage comes from.
2. Cooldown usage - Metamorphosis and other DPS cooldowns uptime is crucial to the spec and a good log should be within a few % of the optimal uptime. On top of that, did the player cast any abilities that shouldn't be used?
3. Resource management. Did the player spend their resources correctly, or sit at max Fury cap without spending it while still generating more? High usage of Demon's Bite is a red flag here for Havoc, because it's a weak ability that does nothing except generate Fury - if you're using it at max Fury, that hurts your damage.
4. Total number of casts per minute. We're all playing the same spec in the end, and Haste differences don't affect your average number of casts per minute. But end of the day, a fight only has so many GCDs in it, and a GCD-locked spec like Havoc should be filling every single one with an ability. Preferably the right ability, but even the wrong one is better than leaving a GCD empty.
5. Ability usage. Did the correct abilities get used? Did the DH use abilities they shouldn't be using?
So let's have a look at those, one by one.
First, Annihilation and Chaos Strike usage.
99% rank - ~34 uses per minute
My 89% rank - ~38 uses per minute
49% rank - ~30 uses per minute
16% rank - ~23 uses per minute
So right off the bat, you can see that there's a huge drop off in the usage rate of our hardest hitting ability between the four ranks. This doesn't tell us why, only that there's a problem. Also, there's probably something else I did wrong in my log, because I actually had more usage of the harder hitting abilities.
Seems normal here. We've just identified the reason for the gap between my log and the 99% log - He had more and better Meta uptime than I did, so although I had more Chaos Strikes & Annihilations, he had a better ratio of Annihilations, which is the harder hitting of the two. The lower logs had similar uptimes, so this isn't the reason.
Thirdly, resource management.
99% rank - ~1200 Fury per minute, wasted ~15 per minute
My 89% rank - ~1362 Fury per minute, wasted none
49% rank - ~1050 Fury per minute, wasted ~25 per minute
16% rank - ~900 Fury per minute, wasted ~50 per minute
Here's a HUGE difference. We've identified the reason for my increased ability usage over the 99% log - I generated more pain than he did, and wasted none of it. And we've also identified a huge problem with the lower ranks. They're just not generating enough resources, and of the stuff they do generate, they're wasting big chunks. Chaos Strike costs 40 Fury and has the potential to refund 20 of that on a crit, so the 16% rank was wasting nearly two Chaos Strikes every minute worth of Fury! I suspect if we go into the total ability usage next, we're going to identify the same pattern.
Fourth, total casts per minute.
99% rank - ~54 casts per minute
My 89% rank - ~57 casts per minute
49% rank - ~ 55 casts per minute
16% rank - ~55 casts per minute
Everything's fine here, nobody's sitting AFK in the middle of the fight or anything. However, here's where the next point comes in.
Fifth, ability usage.
99% rank - Log is mostly made up of Annihilation, Demon's Bite, Chaos Strike, Eye Beam. Other abilities are used in the single digits, like DPS cooldowns.
89% rank - Same story, no wasted GCDs here.
49% rank - Ah, now we start to identify some problems. While his log is still dominated by the correct abilities, he used Throw Glaive 9 times during the fight. That's a ranged ability, only EVER used to pull mobs, or hit something when you literally cannot get into melee range. It does not belong in the Havoc rotation, and he spent 9 GCDs on it! He wasted about another 10 GCDs on miscellaneous abilities which don't belong in the Havoc rotation.
16% rank - This one is all over the fucking place. 15 uses of Death Sweep and Blade Dance combined, which is an ability that is only ever used when fighting more than 6 mobs in an AOE situation. A bunch of uses of Throw Glaive. And apparently he also used his Chaos Nova stun? It does essentially no damage, and bosses are immune to stuns. Bizarre.
So we've just identified, really, the main differences between these logs. Everyone's doing roughly the same number of total casts, but the better logs are using those casts correctly. Everyone's got roughly the same RNG on buff uptime, but the better logs are using the right abilities during those buffs.
The people on the bottom aren't getting bad latency, or bad RNG, or bad anything. They're just making bad decisions, dumb decisions, about how to play their spec in a raid fight, using completely wrong abilities half the time, and getting the results commensurate with their level of knowledge about the encounter.
Not pressing the buttons as often can also be a symptom of bad latency eating your ability casts. If you tried playing with 200+ ms ping and see how smooth it feels compares to a good ping, you might see what I mean.
Also did you look at whether any of these parses got targetted by the necrotic thing that makes you run out of the raid? That could explain 9 throw glaive casts, for example.
I see Blizzard still has the habit of locking things behind raids and such. The best one I've found so far is skinning needing a drop from Tol Barad - apparently Horde in my battlegroup never bothers. Had 10 alliance at each flag and 10 at the graveyard - against 3 people. About 5 times running now.
Not pressing the buttons as often can also be a symptom of bad latency eating your ability casts. If you tried playing with 200+ ms ping and see how smooth it feels compares to a good ping, you might see what I mean.
Firstly, all the logs had the same number of total ability uses through the fight, so that wasn't even a reason for it. Secondly, I've played from Europe on holiday with 350ms and gotten within 3% of my best rankings. It's not an excuse.
Also did you look at whether any of these parses got targetted by the necrotic thing that makes you run out of the raid? That could explain 9 throw glaive casts, for example.
All of them got targeted at least once, but even if you got hit by every single one in the fight, that doesn't explain 9 casts. There aren't that many Necrotic Embraces happening in the fight total. On top of that, moving out for Necrotic Embrace doesn't turn someone's fight from an 80% parse into a 16% parse. I didn't post the actual DPS numbers that went along with those logs, but the 99% was 2.2M DPS, my 89% was 1.9M DPS, the 49% was 1.6M DPS and the 16% was 1.2M DPS
If you're claiming latency and moving out for mechanics as the difference then your assertion is that moving out of melee range for 10 seconds + a bit of extra latency is the difference of 700k+ DPS. Which is, obviously, an absurd assertion.
The *only* possible reasons for a 16% parse are either dying in the fight (which this guy didn't) or being bad at the class. There are no other justifications for it, save perhaps if it's a progress fight, in which case everyone in the raid will have a bad parse. But if everyone else is decent and one or two people are parsing grey, they're being carried.
Why would you need a Cataclysm era skinning recipe?
It's not. It's a legion skinning skill. Don't really need it, but it still begs the question why old stuff in the first place.
Try being on a server where Alliance accounts for 70%-80% of the population.
I have had that quest for nearly 3 months at this point, and I check Tol Barad 2-3 times a day. Alliance has ALWAYS owned it. Tol Barad isn't cross-realm either, so I can't bounce between servers until I find one the Horde actually participates in.
I honestly don't know the reasoning behind the Alliance holding on to a 3 expansion old PVP area, but I think it's utter crap that they put a Legion recipe behind a dungeon that is permanently gated if your faction is in the vast minority. Isn't the Vault permanently open for everyone, no matter who owns Wintergrasp?
I see Blizzard still has the habit of locking things behind raids and such. The best one I've found so far is skinning needing a drop from Tol Barad - apparently Horde in my battlegroup never bothers. Had 10 alliance at each flag and 10 at the graveyard - against 3 people. About 5 times running now.
Fun.
With LFR, I think raids are actually fine? I mean, I can do LFR pretty easily now despite not having played WoW for like 10 years before last month.
Why would you need a Cataclysm era skinning recipe?
It's not. It's a legion skinning skill. Don't really need it, but it still begs the question why old stuff in the first place.
Try being on a server where Alliance accounts for 70%-80% of the population.
I have had that quest for nearly 3 months at this point, and I check Tol Barad 2-3 times a day. Alliance has ALWAYS owned it. Tol Barad isn't cross-realm either, so I can't bounce between servers until I find one the Horde actually participates in.
I honestly don't know the reasoning behind the Alliance holding on to a 3 expansion old PVP area, but I think it's utter crap that they put a Legion recipe behind a dungeon that is permanently gated if your faction is in the vast minority. Isn't the Vault permanently open for everyone, no matter who owns Wintergrasp?
If I were to guess?
Free honor from winning. I think the quests out there for winning give honor too.
PMAvers on
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
It’s not like a faction makes some decision to camp it; a handful of people at a given time are still interested in tol barad and on an alliance-dominant server the preponderance of them will naturally be alliance.
Maybe see if you could get some people out of trade or the finder, I dunno. Why is TB even still useful?
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I am very sad that while a temp fix for a weapon trait was in essentially shooting my rogues single target dps through the roof, this massive east coast lag had to kill my chance to shine
Hitting 1.4mil dps while going at times 20 seconds without an input registering just makes me wonder what I was missing out on.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I don't know what recruit a friend mount to get. I have the two seat sandstone drake so a two seat mount isn't important. I kind of want the fire horse but that rocket mount is cool simply because it is a rocket. I can't decide.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
You do have a chance at the Love Rocket mount coming up soon during the Valentine's Day holiday stuff.
Decided to go on my guild's progression run, which is basically poking at some heroic modes while working on normals.
Stopped by Blistermaw on the way and it graciously dropped its mount.
Then Eonar gave me Titanforged normal bracers (955 ilvl).
That and the portal master kill got me enough guild rep where I discovered (and purchased) both the guild "glory" mounts I was missing (the Panda one and the Draenor one).
I found a normal Antorus PUG with min ilvl 920. We might be falling apart at Kin'garoth now because the tanks left, but we've come all this way with no wipes so far.
So... yeah. The 940+ AOTC stuff seems... :bigfrown:
I found a normal Antorus PUG with min ilvl 920. We might be falling apart at Kin'garoth now because the tanks left, but we've come all this way with no wipes so far.
So... yeah. The 940+ AOTC stuff seems... :bigfrown:
It's just grouos with different priorities. Some people are willing to take a chance on a few wipes with a lower group requirement, others are not and want to all but guarantee a flawless run.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
And lots of them are undergeared and unskilled and looking for a carry.
Most absurd requirement groups are people without the credentials themselves who think they can pretend to be the big boys and find overpowered groups since they can't get in one themselves.
In my limited pug experience, I've had far more success with the former. Because in the latter, everyone is looking to get carried, not just the person making the group.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2018
Often times though the person is as good at making the group as they are at playing. The put up those requirements but invite people not meeting them anyway because surprisingly the good players know how to spot a leech and avoid the group.
I mean maybe its not as often as it seems to me, but I hear about it a lot. I would assume if you are a good player and pugging you know how to find a solid group anyway. Since I have a guild, I have never lacked the requirements so it has been a while since I dealt with that.
Also, in the latter it isn't people looking to get carried so much as people who might not be excellent at the game just making mistakes. That guy asking for requirements he doesn't fulfill fully expects to have other people do all the work and suck ass himself.
Most geared players just see ilvl on the description and not as a requirement and tell you to piss off as a matter of principle, since that group isn't likely to be successful anyways.
EDIT: I always see this argument on Reddit and the answer is always "well, I got enough suckers to carry me to AOTC, so if you don't like it make your own groups lololol". No, piss off, you aren't leading shit since those groups immediatly pass leadership to the tanks and Blizz decided since Cata that the "difficulty" of raid leading should not have any additional rewards since they made 10 and 25 man give the same loot even though "leading 25 is harder".
You do have a chance at the Love Rocket mount coming up soon during the Valentine's Day holiday stuff.
Ha! That's smallest mount drop chance in game iirc.
I broke out alts I had on other realms made them healers and tanks last year for a vain chance at the rocket
Years ago someone showed me they had the rocket and got it again complaining how they could not get the pet that cruel joke has become an obsession for me
Healer Mage Tower done. Goddamn thing takes forever, waiting for Bloodlust is the absolutely worst thing ever.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Zone scaling is really weird with heirlooms and recruit a friend exp. My brother and I are playing trolls. We hit 16 at Razor Hill and decided to do a random dungeon to close out the night. We hit 20 in the dungeon, we ran the one in Orgrimmar.
We haven't even really cleared the newbie zone and we are at 20. The very first quest we got right after the cutscene to go talk to our class trainer leveled us.
Not sure where we should head to at 20.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The world map now has a player level range on it when you mouse over the zones, same way it shows pet level. Just pick any one your level range and head over.
There's also the adventurer's boards all over Org (one's next to the Warchief building right inside the gate) that gives breadcrumb quests for the next zone.
Also the journal will also try to point you to available zones
I've had reasonable luck with pugs. 50% of the time it's a bust... one or two wipes and half the group leaves. Other times it is fine: we either 1 shot stuff or the group at least has the patience to stick out a wipe or two.
That's Elemental Mage Tower down, is Agatha and I'm more familiar with Elemental as a spec and had done a few tries before, but yeah, just crushed it. Prydaz + Healing Pants means that a lot of stuff can't really hurt me and had checked where to use my CDs (save Stormbringer for the small Imps), and have 940+ ilvl on my Ele set so just blew it up.
Third is Enhancement, which is Sigryn. Need some time with it, to get used to the mechanics since they can one-shot you, and to the spec in general so maybe not enough time on this Mage Tower, have work and stuff.
I should bother with the tower things to unlock the ones I care about I suppose. On my paladin at least. I hope I don't like any of my alts' appearances because I don't feel like spending the time to gear them so I can steamroll their challenges.
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Getting within 75% of your dummy DPS on your first time on a raid boss is pretty solid. And your output is good for your item level. Best way to evaluate yourself is to use the warcraftlogs uploader to create your own logs
To search for compatible logs you can go to https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/17 and use the dropdown at the top to narrow your search. Select the boss you want, the difficulty, sort by class and item level, and then go down the list looking for a log with a similar length kill time to your log, and a similar number of players in the raid.
From there it's kind of hard to give a "quick" guide to comparing logs because there is SO much information to look at and it will be different for every class but I'd be happy to do a quick one for you if you post your log link, then you can get an idea of what you're looking for after that.
The caveat here is that a few specs don't have someone actively maintaining them, and for many others their spec suggestions still "need work." But even for those specs, you can get a good view on things like "You used this cooldown twice but the fight was long enough you could have used it 4-5 times," which is good for looking back and figuring out what you need to work on. For me as a healer, it was always using my shorter cooldowns more often, and this helped me see just how much I was leaving on the table.
It also provides a nice, slightly more accessible (IMO) summary of what's going on specific to you in a fight.
Not pressing the buttons as often can also be a symptom of bad latency eating your ability casts. If you tried playing with 200+ ms ping and see how smooth it feels compares to a good ping, you might see what I mean.
Also did you look at whether any of these parses got targetted by the necrotic thing that makes you run out of the raid? That could explain 9 throw glaive casts, for example.
Fun.
It's not. It's a legion skinning skill. Don't really need it, but it still begs the question why old stuff in the first place.
Firstly, all the logs had the same number of total ability uses through the fight, so that wasn't even a reason for it. Secondly, I've played from Europe on holiday with 350ms and gotten within 3% of my best rankings. It's not an excuse.
All of them got targeted at least once, but even if you got hit by every single one in the fight, that doesn't explain 9 casts. There aren't that many Necrotic Embraces happening in the fight total. On top of that, moving out for Necrotic Embrace doesn't turn someone's fight from an 80% parse into a 16% parse. I didn't post the actual DPS numbers that went along with those logs, but the 99% was 2.2M DPS, my 89% was 1.9M DPS, the 49% was 1.6M DPS and the 16% was 1.2M DPS
If you're claiming latency and moving out for mechanics as the difference then your assertion is that moving out of melee range for 10 seconds + a bit of extra latency is the difference of 700k+ DPS. Which is, obviously, an absurd assertion.
The *only* possible reasons for a 16% parse are either dying in the fight (which this guy didn't) or being bad at the class. There are no other justifications for it, save perhaps if it's a progress fight, in which case everyone in the raid will have a bad parse. But if everyone else is decent and one or two people are parsing grey, they're being carried.
Try being on a server where Alliance accounts for 70%-80% of the population.
I have had that quest for nearly 3 months at this point, and I check Tol Barad 2-3 times a day. Alliance has ALWAYS owned it. Tol Barad isn't cross-realm either, so I can't bounce between servers until I find one the Horde actually participates in.
I honestly don't know the reasoning behind the Alliance holding on to a 3 expansion old PVP area, but I think it's utter crap that they put a Legion recipe behind a dungeon that is permanently gated if your faction is in the vast minority. Isn't the Vault permanently open for everyone, no matter who owns Wintergrasp?
With LFR, I think raids are actually fine? I mean, I can do LFR pretty easily now despite not having played WoW for like 10 years before last month.
Your situation sounds ass though.
If I were to guess?
Free honor from winning. I think the quests out there for winning give honor too.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Maybe see if you could get some people out of trade or the finder, I dunno. Why is TB even still useful?
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Hitting 1.4mil dps while going at times 20 seconds without an input registering just makes me wonder what I was missing out on.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Ha! That's smallest mount drop chance in game iirc.
Stopped by Blistermaw on the way and it graciously dropped its mount.
Then Eonar gave me Titanforged normal bracers (955 ilvl).
That and the portal master kill got me enough guild rep where I discovered (and purchased) both the guild "glory" mounts I was missing (the Panda one and the Draenor one).
So... yeah. The 940+ AOTC stuff seems... :bigfrown:
5/10 Done.
Made sure to get the annoying one's done first.
It's just grouos with different priorities. Some people are willing to take a chance on a few wipes with a lower group requirement, others are not and want to all but guarantee a flawless run.
Most absurd requirement groups are people without the credentials themselves who think they can pretend to be the big boys and find overpowered groups since they can't get in one themselves.
I mean maybe its not as often as it seems to me, but I hear about it a lot. I would assume if you are a good player and pugging you know how to find a solid group anyway. Since I have a guild, I have never lacked the requirements so it has been a while since I dealt with that.
Also, in the latter it isn't people looking to get carried so much as people who might not be excellent at the game just making mistakes. That guy asking for requirements he doesn't fulfill fully expects to have other people do all the work and suck ass himself.
EDIT: I always see this argument on Reddit and the answer is always "well, I got enough suckers to carry me to AOTC, so if you don't like it make your own groups lololol". No, piss off, you aren't leading shit since those groups immediatly pass leadership to the tanks and Blizz decided since Cata that the "difficulty" of raid leading should not have any additional rewards since they made 10 and 25 man give the same loot even though "leading 25 is harder".
I broke out alts I had on other realms made them healers and tanks last year for a vain chance at the rocket
Years ago someone showed me they had the rocket and got it again complaining how they could not get the pet that cruel joke has become an obsession for me
Healer Mage Tower done. Goddamn thing takes forever, waiting for Bloodlust is the absolutely worst thing ever.
We haven't even really cleared the newbie zone and we are at 20. The very first quest we got right after the cutscene to go talk to our class trainer leveled us.
Not sure where we should head to at 20.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Also the journal will also try to point you to available zones
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Yes.
I think they did that for the little event they have going on right now.
DS Friend code: 3840-6605-3406
Apparently this Silithus thing only lasts for another 24 hours so I can't really participate.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
That's Elemental Mage Tower down, is Agatha and I'm more familiar with Elemental as a spec and had done a few tries before, but yeah, just crushed it. Prydaz + Healing Pants means that a lot of stuff can't really hurt me and had checked where to use my CDs (save Stormbringer for the small Imps), and have 940+ ilvl on my Ele set so just blew it up.
Third is Enhancement, which is Sigryn. Need some time with it, to get used to the mechanics since they can one-shot you, and to the spec in general so maybe not enough time on this Mage Tower, have work and stuff.