Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
seriously, what does that have to do with anything? We have a voter turnout that hovers around 20% every year
What? We don't have national elections every year. The midterm turnout was twice that. The presidential turnout was three times that.
public opinion polls that STILL show the majority of people believe that Saddam was somehow involved with September 11th
22%
... hell, there is still a significant portion of the population that believes we found WMDs in Iraq.
A significant minority might believe that Saddam had WMD before the war, but I doubt the percentage of people who believe they were actually found there exceeds the percentage that think Bush planned 9/11 himself.
It has nothing to do with feeling superior, but how can you argue that a large portion of the population is almost completely oblivious to anything happening beyond their front door?
Because it would seem you are the one who is completely misinformed.
Because it would seem you are the one who is completely misinformed.
Hmm... so, I bet it feels nice to feel superior, doesn't it?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I don't think they had much of anything that was operable thanks to all the sanctions. Wasn't there only like 1 mechanized division that even confronted our guys before getting bombed? Iran won't be in quite as bad a shape, but we'd be able to beat them soundly in a traditional conflict. The issue is that it wouldn't be a traditional conflict. Well, that and that you can't occupy a country from 30,000 feet.
I don't think they had much of anything that was operable thanks to all the sanctions. Wasn't there only like 1 mechanized division that even confronted our guys before getting bombed? Iran won't be in quite as bad a shape, but we'd be able to beat them soundly in a traditional conflict. The issue is that it wouldn't be a traditional conflict. Well, that and that you can't occupy a country from 30,000 feet.
Yeah, but I meant during the first time around. I don't recall us losing any planes in that one.
The air force is a mixture of Russian (MiG-29 and SU-24 represent the most recent) and legacy US kit. The status of the F-14 fleet has been a matter of some conjecture for a while. Certainly some are still flying as they have been used to probe along the border, probably because they have one of the better radars in the fleet, as aged as it is. The air force would probably offer the same resistance that the Iraqi air force did in Desert Storm although with nowhere to run they may be more likely to stand and fight at the end. The air crews will likelly be well motivated and trained but will be at a technological and situational disadvantage (not much in the way of AWACS although it is believed that the F-14 operate as airborne controllers) and will not have the benefit of the intensity of training that western air forces have (some western air crews claimed that Red flag was more challenging than the '91 Iraqi air defense! An exaggeration but the dissimilar combat and ECM exposure provided by the exercises certainly helps) http://www.scramble.nl/ir.htm
Iran recently purchased modern SAM systems from Russia. There has been a lot written about the capabilities of the modern double digits SAM, including claims of being able to beat LO aircraft. Such claims are generally treated with a pinch of salt but it never pays to dismiss such things until proven and any fixed sites would be high on the frag list to receive a visit from a stand off weapons of some description.
In short, the air war would be very much in favour of the USAF.
This may seem silly, but aren't SAM's useless now that stealth bombers have been invented?
I've heard stories about Desert Storm, in which SAM operators were executed because they said that they didn't see anything.
Yeah, I think the latest, greatest hybrid radar/sattelite systems do the job but I doubt the Iranians have enough of them. At least that's what I've gleaned from some Air Force dude that talked my ear off. I shut down a quarter way through the conversation though.
This may seem silly, but aren't SAM's useless now that stealth bombers have been invented?
I've heard stories about Desert Storm, in which SAM operators were executed because they said that they didn't see anything.
Stealth bombers (and fighters) aren't completely stealth, they just have a very low radar profile. I remember some guy talking about it on the History channel that the goal wasn't that they were undetectable, but that they wouldn't get detected until their target was receiving their bombs and the bomber was well on their way out of there.
I wouldn't be surprised if Iranian SAMs and radar detection wasn't up to snuff in stopping a stealth attack. However, the real danger is they would retaliate using other means more appropriate to their strengths.
This may seem silly, but aren't SAM's useless now that stealth bombers have been invented?
Ironically, the presumed invincibility is what got that stealth bomber shot down in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia. The pilots took the same route each night and the forces on the ground correlated the attacks behind them with a plane flying overhead. Doubtless the USAF wouldn't do the same now.
On a side note, I've read ideas for tracking stealth craft by the EM "hole" they leave in the rest of the spectrum. Not something that the Iranians are going to be able to afford, admittedly.
What savant said. Stealth decreases the maximum engagement range of a radar to the point where holes appear in what was once an overlapping network of radar sweeps. It does this by making sure that the majority of the received radar energy is reflected away from the incoming beam, typically along a few nodes, so only a small proportion returns to the emitter.
In theory if you have a REALLY smart radar system you could link a number of radars so one system is the emitter and one is the receiver, picking up the nodes of reflected energy being directed AWAY from the emitter and AT one of the remote recivers. I think this is what Malkor is getting at.
As I said, the Russian's have made all kinds of claims about the newest SAM. Most of it is questionable. I imagine the F-117 (as well as nullifying some of the RCS reductions incorporated into the B-1B and craft like the F/A-18E/F and Typhoon) might start suffering but that has been retired and the newer B-2 and F-22A shouldn't yet be at risk.
Quids in says that cruise missiles will deal with any fixed sites picked up by the RIVET JOINT ELINT aircraft over the last few years whilst F/A-22 beat a path for the older but still effective airframes like the F-15E (or allied Tornado if we get pulled into this mess...).
This may seem silly, but aren't SAM's useless now that stealth bombers have been invented?
I've heard stories about Desert Storm, in which SAM operators were executed because they said that they didn't see anything.
Stealth bombers (and fighters) aren't completely stealth, they just have a very low radar profile. I remember some guy talking about it on the History channel that the goal wasn't that they were undetectable, but that they wouldn't get detected until their target was receiving their bombs and the bomber was well on their way out of there.
I wouldn't be surprised if Iranian SAMs and radar detection wasn't up to snuff in stopping a stealth attack. However, the real danger is they would retaliate using other means more appropriate to their strengths.
And the soldiers conveniently located next door. I mean, if getting the shit bombed out of you isn't Casus Belli then I don't know what is.
Hmm, I thought I was meaner about than you and I didnt get one. But yes, the overall American knowledge of the middle east scares me. How many even realize there is a difference between the Kurds and Sunni's? Or that they arent both Arab.
Well, we could start with the fact that one's an ethnic group and the other's a religious sect.
Hence this is somewhat like asking if people know the difference between Basques and Lutherans.
Hmm, I thought I was meaner about than you and I didnt get one. But yes, the overall American knowledge of the middle east scares me. How many even realize there is a difference between the Kurds and Sunni's? Or that they arent both Arab.
Well, we could start with the fact that one's an ethnic group and the other's a religious sect.
Hence this is somewhat like asking if people know the difference between Basques and Lutherans.
What exactly is the difference between Basques and Lutherans? ;-)
At the risk of showing my ignorance, I'll admit that I'd be hard-pressed to tell you the difference between Shia or Sunnis, or between Arabs or Kurds. To be honest, I don't think that's something the average voter really needs to know; they simply need to know that there is a difference and that it may well affect the outcome of any policy decisions. And the people making those policy decision (or at least the people advising them) need to have a fair understanding of the difference so as to at least attempt to predict what those effects might be.
But expecting the average Joe over here to know the difference between them would seem to me like asking the average Iraqi to explain the difference between Catholics and Mormons...or between the English and Scots.
To be honest, I don't think that's something the average voter really needs to know; they simply need to know that there is a difference and that it may well affect the outcome of any policy decisions
if you don't know the difference, how are you going to know whose policy decisions/positions are most likely to resolve conflict between the factions and thus make an educated choice when asked to vote?
also: Lutherans are a religious movement from the 16th century that originated as part of the protestant reformation. Basque is an area in france and spain where the basques live. They are either an ethnic group or an annexed country depending on who's doing the talking, (kind of Like the Bretons or the Cornish).
Yes, I came across that youtube video looking for the Palestinian kids show that was on the Daily Show last night. Did anyone catch the name of that Palestinian show?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Also, Youtube comments remove my faith in hummanity.
Karim sucks.
Dude, his bigass sword oneshots the Horrors when enchanted.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
edited May 2007
Frankly, it reminds me of nothing so much as that whacked clip on youtube about the beliefs of Mormons which dovetailed a bit too nicely with the anti-mormon speakers who followed for the cartoon to strike me as being 'legit.'
Also, Youtube comments remove my faith in hummanity.
Karim sucks.
Dude, his bigass sword oneshots the Horrors when enchanted.
The style makes me think of some sort of bizzarro king of the hill.
As for stealth aircraft, they're not totally undetectable, there are ways of getting them, which basically involve getting radar beams to hit them from the top, rather than the bottom or sides. Granted, these methods are either incredibly inneficient (over the horizon radar systems) or incredibly vulnerable (high-flying AWACS planes).
In any case, large-scale radar operations would probably get a HARM up their ass within 10 minutes of hostility beginning, leaving the smaller SAM radars.
Also, Youtube comments remove my faith in hummanity.
Karim sucks.
Dude, his bigass sword oneshots the Horrors when enchanted.
The style makes me think of some sort of bizzarro king of the hill.
As for stealth aircraft, they're not totally undetectable, there are ways of getting them, which basically involve getting radar beams to hit them from the top, rather than the bottom or sides. Granted, these methods are either incredibly inneficient (over the horizon radar systems) or incredibly vulnerable (high-flying AWACS planes).
In any case, large-scale radar operations would probably get a HARM up their ass within 10 minutes of hostility beginning, leaving the smaller SAM radars.
Wouldn't stealth bombers still have a sizeable heat signature? Couldn't missiles work off of this or something? I really don't know here, just curious.
Stealth bombers have a thermal masking technology that reduces their effective engine heat signature. Modern strategies for detection involve non-LOS radar systems - basically, you assume the radar beam will end up somewhere funny and so you use an array of detectors around your emitter to work out if it's nothing or if there's a real radar reflector out there.
To those of you who sneer at the possibility of a draft,
How can you be so clueless???
When the American military is already stretched beyond it's means in a foreign occupation, what makes you think the government would HESITATE to draft us in the event of a national emergency (I.E.: following the next inevitable disaster).
Let's be honest here, if we go to war with Iran or any other country, if ANYTHING tips us beyond our capacity, we are going to see a draft. And considering the current state of America, I don't foresee people fighting back like they did in the '60's. No. We were shocked and appauled at protests being violently broken up back then,
but now: we have become used to the notion that protestors will be oppressed, under the Patriot Act anybody who commits a criminal act may be labeled a terrorist. In effect; Draft dodgers will be thrown in prison as will the general opposition of a draft, or war with Iran etc.
I wish I could claim tinfoil hat on this but I see it happening and it scares me.
Well, at least you can take comfort in the fact that you are wrong.
The government would hesitate to institute a draft because they would lose their jobs in the elections 18 months from now and no longer be the government.
You are all incredibly naiive. If both Democrats and Republicans swayed to a draft in a state of emergency, what would you say then?
I am scared for us all. The undue trust in this government is staggering.
A draft would completely fuck over the government because the only reason they've been able to get away with so much in Iraq is that it doesn't affect people's daily lives. As soon as you start forcing sons and daughters into combat situations, the population will explode.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
You are all incredibly naiive. If both Democrats and Republicans swayed to a draft in a state of emergency, what would you say then?
I am scared for us all. The undue trust in this government is staggering.
EntropyKid, is that-? No, wait, if it were then you would've called us all sheeple, and lamented that unlike you, we have never mastered the art of picking up a paper and reading the words upon it.
Posts
What? We don't have national elections every year. The midterm turnout was twice that. The presidential turnout was three times that.
22%
A significant minority might believe that Saddam had WMD before the war, but I doubt the percentage of people who believe they were actually found there exceeds the percentage that think Bush planned 9/11 himself.
Because it would seem you are the one who is completely misinformed.
They have a few F-14's, most of which they can't keep in the air because of a parts shortage. We would crush them.
The real threat are the russian SAMs they bought. Yeah, those could suck.
Hmm... so, I bet it feels nice to feel superior, doesn't it?
I don't think they had much of anything that was operable thanks to all the sanctions. Wasn't there only like 1 mechanized division that even confronted our guys before getting bombed? Iran won't be in quite as bad a shape, but we'd be able to beat them soundly in a traditional conflict. The issue is that it wouldn't be a traditional conflict. Well, that and that you can't occupy a country from 30,000 feet.
I'd rather have waffles.
Yeah, but I meant during the first time around. I don't recall us losing any planes in that one.
The air force is a mixture of Russian (MiG-29 and SU-24 represent the most recent) and legacy US kit. The status of the F-14 fleet has been a matter of some conjecture for a while. Certainly some are still flying as they have been used to probe along the border, probably because they have one of the better radars in the fleet, as aged as it is. The air force would probably offer the same resistance that the Iraqi air force did in Desert Storm although with nowhere to run they may be more likely to stand and fight at the end. The air crews will likelly be well motivated and trained but will be at a technological and situational disadvantage (not much in the way of AWACS although it is believed that the F-14 operate as airborne controllers) and will not have the benefit of the intensity of training that western air forces have (some western air crews claimed that Red flag was more challenging than the '91 Iraqi air defense! An exaggeration but the dissimilar combat and ECM exposure provided by the exercises certainly helps)
http://www.scramble.nl/ir.htm
Iran recently purchased modern SAM systems from Russia. There has been a lot written about the capabilities of the modern double digits SAM, including claims of being able to beat LO aircraft. Such claims are generally treated with a pinch of salt but it never pays to dismiss such things until proven and any fixed sites would be high on the frag list to receive a visit from a stand off weapons of some description.
In short, the air war would be very much in favour of the USAF.
My other sig sucks as well...
I've heard stories about Desert Storm, in which SAM operators were executed because they said that they didn't see anything.
Yeah, I think the latest, greatest hybrid radar/sattelite systems do the job but I doubt the Iranians have enough of them. At least that's what I've gleaned from some Air Force dude that talked my ear off. I shut down a quarter way through the conversation though.
Stealth bombers (and fighters) aren't completely stealth, they just have a very low radar profile. I remember some guy talking about it on the History channel that the goal wasn't that they were undetectable, but that they wouldn't get detected until their target was receiving their bombs and the bomber was well on their way out of there.
I wouldn't be surprised if Iranian SAMs and radar detection wasn't up to snuff in stopping a stealth attack. However, the real danger is they would retaliate using other means more appropriate to their strengths.
Ironically, the presumed invincibility is what got that stealth bomber shot down in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia. The pilots took the same route each night and the forces on the ground correlated the attacks behind them with a plane flying overhead. Doubtless the USAF wouldn't do the same now.
On a side note, I've read ideas for tracking stealth craft by the EM "hole" they leave in the rest of the spectrum. Not something that the Iranians are going to be able to afford, admittedly.
In theory if you have a REALLY smart radar system you could link a number of radars so one system is the emitter and one is the receiver, picking up the nodes of reflected energy being directed AWAY from the emitter and AT one of the remote recivers. I think this is what Malkor is getting at.
As I said, the Russian's have made all kinds of claims about the newest SAM. Most of it is questionable. I imagine the F-117 (as well as nullifying some of the RCS reductions incorporated into the B-1B and craft like the F/A-18E/F and Typhoon) might start suffering but that has been retired and the newer B-2 and F-22A shouldn't yet be at risk.
Quids in says that cruise missiles will deal with any fixed sites picked up by the RIVET JOINT ELINT aircraft over the last few years whilst F/A-22 beat a path for the older but still effective airframes like the F-15E (or allied Tornado if we get pulled into this mess...).
My other sig sucks as well...
Let's hope the US doesn't lay out Patriots on our flight path home.
And the soldiers conveniently located next door. I mean, if getting the shit bombed out of you isn't Casus Belli then I don't know what is.
Let's.
My other sig sucks as well...
That's not so clever a retort when you're the one who painted a bullseye on your ass.
Hence this is somewhat like asking if people know the difference between Basques and Lutherans.
What exactly is the difference between Basques and Lutherans? ;-)
At the risk of showing my ignorance, I'll admit that I'd be hard-pressed to tell you the difference between Shia or Sunnis, or between Arabs or Kurds. To be honest, I don't think that's something the average voter really needs to know; they simply need to know that there is a difference and that it may well affect the outcome of any policy decisions. And the people making those policy decision (or at least the people advising them) need to have a fair understanding of the difference so as to at least attempt to predict what those effects might be.
But expecting the average Joe over here to know the difference between them would seem to me like asking the average Iraqi to explain the difference between Catholics and Mormons...or between the English and Scots.
if you don't know the difference, how are you going to know whose policy decisions/positions are most likely to resolve conflict between the factions and thus make an educated choice when asked to vote?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-UZyNssGj0
Wow that is fucked up.
Also, Youtube comments remove my faith in hummanity.
Karim sucks.
Dude, his bigass sword oneshots the Horrors when enchanted.
My other sig sucks as well...
Fixed that for you.
The style makes me think of some sort of bizzarro king of the hill.
As for stealth aircraft, they're not totally undetectable, there are ways of getting them, which basically involve getting radar beams to hit them from the top, rather than the bottom or sides. Granted, these methods are either incredibly inneficient (over the horizon radar systems) or incredibly vulnerable (high-flying AWACS planes).
In any case, large-scale radar operations would probably get a HARM up their ass within 10 minutes of hostility beginning, leaving the smaller SAM radars.
Wouldn't stealth bombers still have a sizeable heat signature? Couldn't missiles work off of this or something? I really don't know here, just curious.
First we have to Ally with them, and work with them and train them to take on modern millitary squads.
Then, we give them tons of weapons.
Then we build an explosive depot in their land.
Then we can go to war.
And we'd still kick their ass.
HOO HA!
You are all incredibly naiive. If both Democrats and Republicans swayed to a draft in a state of emergency, what would you say then?
I am scared for us all. The undue trust in this government is staggering.
Watchout dude.
They are right behind you.
EntropyKid, is that-? No, wait, if it were then you would've called us all sheeple, and lamented that unlike you, we have never mastered the art of picking up a paper and reading the words upon it.