Sentencing guidelines for the crime of lying to federal investigators are 0-6 months, so he got the lighter end of a sentence.
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
I can’t find the article, but he has access to info that is not readily available to the public. Apparently he “waived his FOIA” rights as part of an agreement? It sounded like the reasoning was that it would compromise info if certain things came to light as part of a FOIA request due to the nature of the information. It read like “there is info that can ruin some of our investigation if it were to be made publicly available.”
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Drake ChambersLay out my formal shorts.Registered Userregular
Sentencing guidelines for the crime of lying to federal investigators are 0-6 months, so he got the lighter end of a sentence.
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
To be clear, the formula for sentencing guidelines is more complicated than that, factoring in the defendant's criminal history and other aggravating/mitigating factors.
The statute itself allows for a sentence of up to 5 years. Though 30 days sounds like a slap on the wrist, the fact that there's any kind of custodial sentence in this case at all is significant. For a cooperator with no criminal history and a non-violent crime it wouldn't be unusual for the guy to just get probation.
Sentencing guidelines for the crime of lying to federal investigators are 0-6 months, so he got the lighter end of a sentence.
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
He is specifically NOT helping the investigation. He refused to, and his explanation for "why" he lied is shady and bullshitty as fuck. So him only getting 30 days, as a fucking lawyer himself to super duper doubly should have known better and the implications, is complete bullshit.
alternately, if that's what people are getting, so what? People get worse for DWIs
People get worse for having recreational amounts of weed but comparing sentencing for white collar crimes vs all other crimes is a wacky rabbit hole we shouldn’t go down in this thread
Sentencing guidelines for the crime of lying to federal investigators are 0-6 months, so he got the lighter end of a sentence.
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
He is specifically NOT helping the investigation. He refused to, and his explanation for "why" he lied is shady and bullshitty as fuck. So him only getting 30 days, as a fucking lawyer himself to super duper doubly should have known better and the implications, is complete bullshit.
Can you cite that? I was under the impression he plead guilty and is helping
alternately, if that's what people are getting, so what? People get worse for DWIs
People get worse for having recreational amounts of weed but comparing sentencing for white collar crimes vs all other crimes is a wacky rabbit hole we shouldn’t go down in this thread
Also, from what I read, this was for a relatively minor lie that he voluntarily corrected later. Van der Zwaan's wife is also six months pregnant, and the defense requested no jail time because of that along with the other mitigating factors (first offense, voluntary correction, guilty plea, etc). The prosecutors requested that the judge issue "some" jail time as part of the sentence, likely to show that they were serious about the whole thing, as it wouldn't be uncommon for this type of case to result in no jail time.
Sentencing guidelines for the crime of lying to federal investigators are 0-6 months, so he got the lighter end of a sentence.
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
He is specifically NOT helping the investigation. He refused to, and his explanation for "why" he lied is shady and bullshitty as fuck. So him only getting 30 days, as a fucking lawyer himself to super duper doubly should have known better and the implications, is complete bullshit.
Can you cite that? I was under the impression he plead guilty and is helping
Yeah, RTÉ are reporting he got 30 days as part of a plea deal. You don’t get those without the prosecutor being on board.
Sentencing guidelines for the crime of lying to federal investigators are 0-6 months, so he got the lighter end of a sentence.
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
He is specifically NOT helping the investigation. He refused to, and his explanation for "why" he lied is shady and bullshitty as fuck. So him only getting 30 days, as a fucking lawyer himself to super duper doubly should have known better and the implications, is complete bullshit.
Can you cite that? I was under the impression he plead guilty and is helping
Yeah, RTÉ are reporting he got 30 days as part of a plea deal. You don’t get those without the prosecutor being on board.
alternately, if that's what people are getting, so what? People get worse for DWIs
People get worse for having recreational amounts of weed but comparing sentencing for white collar crimes vs all other crimes is a wacky rabbit hole we shouldn’t go down in this thread
I’m not particularly bloodthirsty regarding sentencing. I think it’s unbecoming and kind of weird considering that hypercarceal frothing is exactly the ridiculousness that progressives should be wary to embrace. I really only care about one particular person getting the book thrown at them and even then I’m unsure it will happen. But at least the investigation seems to be moving forward and is a real thing with actual prosecutorial power.
The total time he could be sentenced to was just 6 months. I think 1 month is just way too light. At least 2 months in my opinion, though I'd have liked to have seen 3.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I’m fine with people cutting deals for low sentences. But ultimately what happened here is one of the most serious crimes in American history, and in order to effectively deter things like this from happening, the punishments must be commensurate with how difficult it is to get a group of people who are pretty much above the law to a sentencing hearing in the first place. They all said to themselves, we’ll never get caught, and so if we do catch them the price needs to be super serious. I don’t think there’s any sentence below the death penalty I would truly think was too extreme for what is essentially a conspiracy to commit treason.
This is also not a conviction for underlying crimes he might have done.
He is still open to that if he actually was part of anything.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Plus he has a coviction of a fellony. This is not just lost job territory it is find a new carreer territory.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
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The total time he could be sentenced to was just 6 months. I think 1 month is just way too light. At least 2 months in my opinion, though I'd have liked to have seen 3.
What I've seen this sentence is a mix of heavier than normal as well as lighter than normal.
Jail time for a first offense is typically zero but with a couple years supervised release. He got a month of jail but only two months of supervised release. At the end of which he'll be deported and barred from reentry.
I’m fine with people cutting deals for low sentences. But ultimately what happened here is one of the most serious crimes in American history, and in order to effectively deter things like this from happening, the punishments must be commensurate with how difficult it is to get a group of people who are pretty much above the law to a sentencing hearing in the first place. They all said to themselves, we’ll never get caught, and so if we do catch them the price needs to be super serious. I don’t think there’s any sentence below the death penalty I would truly think was too extreme for what is essentially a conspiracy to commit treason.
None of that has been demonstrated in the court of law. No one has been charged with treason.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
It is basically treason and they are clearly guilty, but obviously if they’re not guilty they’ll never get to be sentenced to a term I will or will not agree with, so it doesn’t really matter
It is basically treason and they are clearly guilty, but obviously if they’re not guilty they’ll never get to be sentenced to a term I will or will not agree with, so it doesn’t really matter
You realize this guy literally can't be guilty of that because he's not American?
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Treason is the only crime defined by the Constitution. I would hesitate to throw that charge around. Even if something is espionage by a US citizen against the us government it may not meet the definition of treason.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
It is basically treason and they are clearly guilty, but obviously if they’re not guilty they’ll never get to be sentenced to a term I will or will not agree with, so it doesn’t really matter
So the guy in question, the one who was just sentenced? I can say 1000% it wasn't treason. Because he's not a US citizen.
Whatever enormous crimes happened we still need to convict and sentence folks for things they actually did. Facts and actual laws still matter, at least to me.
The definition of treason has happened here before, gone on for pages and pages and never concluded.
It either is or isn't treason (whatever that might be defined as), "basically" treason isn't something that exists or would effect sentencing; and whether it is or isn't actually treason will be determined by the investigation and/or any other investigations that might be produced by it.
We can desire whatever outcome we personally want, but as of now we're still all at the mercy of whatever happens with the investigation.
ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
Before we get too frothy here, let's remember that not everyone in this circus is "guilty of conspiracy to commit treason." Not every lie is equal, not every deleted email is equal, and not every player is equal.
If Manafort gets 30 days and a twenty grand fine, then I'll cue up the outrage symphony. But this is a minor player who told a minor lie and received a minor punishment. Will this kind of punishment deter the next van der Zwaan? Probably. Would it deter a Kushner? No, but it wasn't a Kushner who just got sentenced.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
It is basically treason and they are clearly guilty, but obviously if they’re not guilty they’ll never get to be sentenced to a term I will or will not agree with, so it doesn’t really matter
You realize this guy literally can't be guilty of that because he's not American?
Like half a page up I said I’m fine with this guy getting off light as a cooperating witness. I was responding to the general idea that it doesn’t matter if the Americans in this investigation get light sentences.
It is basically treason and they are clearly guilty, but obviously if they’re not guilty they’ll never get to be sentenced to a term I will or will not agree with, so it doesn’t really matter
"It's basically treason and they're clearly guilty" is some dark as fuck thinking.
The endless arguments over the specific constitutional definition of treason are pointless and silly. There is no technical crime called "collusion" either but when someone says "they are guilty of collusion", everyone knows what you mean. Same shit with treason.
When people say treason they mean "whatever the specifically legal charge is for the crimes people colloquially call treason".. You can call that treason and we all know what it means without getting pedantic.
These people are all clearly flagrantly guilty of a ton of crimes, including some of them conspiring with a foreign government to win the election is the basic point here. Mueller isn't an idiot, I'm sure he knows what specific charges that ends up being under the law.
The problem there is people colloquially call all manner of things treason. If it can be stretched to include people who have no claimed or expected loyalty to the US government it's devoid of use.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
"increasing punishments will stop crimes" is illiberal nonsense even when we really dislike the people who are being shitty.
Actively enforcing laws and providing appropriate punishment shouldn't be beyond the pale.
I don't think anyone here expects them to have been drawn and quartered, but when people go to jail for decades over a little weed or even a mid tier serious crime, the slap on the wrist (or literally zero punishment whatsoever) that occurred during that clusterfuck already has set a precedent that continues to have effects felt to this day.
If Mueller's investigation ends and he has a list of people and crimes so long that it looks like a phone book when stacked up, and nobody gets more than a stern glare for it, that's not going to help. I'm certainly not expecting them to get a guillotine on Capital Hill, but where people have actually broken laws and committed crimes, it'd be nice to see them stand trial (or whatever is appropriate) and if found guilty, receive punishment as listed by law.
Which then butts up against Spoits point; we shouldn't get our hopes up too high for that, because of aforementioned precedent.
I see it as 'what I'd like to have happen' versus 'what I expect to have happen'.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
"increasing punishments will stop crimes" is illiberal nonsense even when we really dislike the people who are being shitty.
No. It’s not. It doesn’t hold up when the crimes are not premediated or are perpetrated out of necessity. But this does not negate the base structure of the disincentives, just that there are situations where they dont matter.
If you want to stop political crimes throwing people in jail for them is going to work.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
"increasing punishments will stop crimes" is illiberal nonsense even when we really dislike the people who are being shitty.
This is Laffer Curve thinking. Increasing punishments could very well deter crimes if the current punishments are so low as to be under the optimum amount.
The real problem is consistency of enforcement. If everyone involved had been repeatedly convicted over the past decade or so, we wouldn't need to go to such extremes now. Even if we all we did was enforce money laundering laws better, we could probably have prevented this whole thing entirely.
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alternately, if that's what people are getting, so what? People get worse for DWIs
Van der Zwaan probably knows something that is helping Mueller but what exactly that is is a tightly guarded secret. It's still unclear if and how he is connected to the Trump campaign.
To be clear, the formula for sentencing guidelines is more complicated than that, factoring in the defendant's criminal history and other aggravating/mitigating factors.
The statute itself allows for a sentence of up to 5 years. Though 30 days sounds like a slap on the wrist, the fact that there's any kind of custodial sentence in this case at all is significant. For a cooperator with no criminal history and a non-violent crime it wouldn't be unusual for the guy to just get probation.
He is specifically NOT helping the investigation. He refused to, and his explanation for "why" he lied is shady and bullshitty as fuck. So him only getting 30 days, as a fucking lawyer himself to super duper doubly should have known better and the implications, is complete bullshit.
This is the 'cooperated with the FBI' sentence, isn't it?
Manafort sure as hell is getting hit with a lot more
edit: disregard post, nothing to see here
People get worse for having recreational amounts of weed but comparing sentencing for white collar crimes vs all other crimes is a wacky rabbit hole we shouldn’t go down in this thread
Can you cite that? I was under the impression he plead guilty and is helping
Also, from what I read, this was for a relatively minor lie that he voluntarily corrected later. Van der Zwaan's wife is also six months pregnant, and the defense requested no jail time because of that along with the other mitigating factors (first offense, voluntary correction, guilty plea, etc). The prosecutors requested that the judge issue "some" jail time as part of the sentence, likely to show that they were serious about the whole thing, as it wouldn't be uncommon for this type of case to result in no jail time.
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Yeah, RTÉ are reporting he got 30 days as part of a plea deal. You don’t get those without the prosecutor being on board.
He plead guilty, but he is not helping.
Yes, that tangent is off topic.
He is still open to that if he actually was part of anything.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
What I've seen this sentence is a mix of heavier than normal as well as lighter than normal.
Jail time for a first offense is typically zero but with a couple years supervised release. He got a month of jail but only two months of supervised release. At the end of which he'll be deported and barred from reentry.
You realize this guy literally can't be guilty of that because he's not American?
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
So the guy in question, the one who was just sentenced? I can say 1000% it wasn't treason. Because he's not a US citizen.
Whatever enormous crimes happened we still need to convict and sentence folks for things they actually did. Facts and actual laws still matter, at least to me.
It either is or isn't treason (whatever that might be defined as), "basically" treason isn't something that exists or would effect sentencing; and whether it is or isn't actually treason will be determined by the investigation and/or any other investigations that might be produced by it.
We can desire whatever outcome we personally want, but as of now we're still all at the mercy of whatever happens with the investigation.
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If Manafort gets 30 days and a twenty grand fine, then I'll cue up the outrage symphony. But this is a minor player who told a minor lie and received a minor punishment. Will this kind of punishment deter the next van der Zwaan? Probably. Would it deter a Kushner? No, but it wasn't a Kushner who just got sentenced.
Like half a page up I said I’m fine with this guy getting off light as a cooperating witness. I was responding to the general idea that it doesn’t matter if the Americans in this investigation get light sentences.
He lied to his firm. He was already completely radioactive.
"It's basically treason and they're clearly guilty" is some dark as fuck thinking.
When people say treason they mean "whatever the specifically legal charge is for the crimes people colloquially call treason".. You can call that treason and we all know what it means without getting pedantic.
These people are all clearly flagrantly guilty of a ton of crimes, including some of them conspiring with a foreign government to win the election is the basic point here. Mueller isn't an idiot, I'm sure he knows what specific charges that ends up being under the law.
Perhaps one reason history has been able to repeat itself!
Actively enforcing laws and providing appropriate punishment shouldn't be beyond the pale.
I don't think anyone here expects them to have been drawn and quartered, but when people go to jail for decades over a little weed or even a mid tier serious crime, the slap on the wrist (or literally zero punishment whatsoever) that occurred during that clusterfuck already has set a precedent that continues to have effects felt to this day.
If Mueller's investigation ends and he has a list of people and crimes so long that it looks like a phone book when stacked up, and nobody gets more than a stern glare for it, that's not going to help. I'm certainly not expecting them to get a guillotine on Capital Hill, but where people have actually broken laws and committed crimes, it'd be nice to see them stand trial (or whatever is appropriate) and if found guilty, receive punishment as listed by law.
Which then butts up against Spoits point; we shouldn't get our hopes up too high for that, because of aforementioned precedent.
I see it as 'what I'd like to have happen' versus 'what I expect to have happen'.
No. It’s not. It doesn’t hold up when the crimes are not premediated or are perpetrated out of necessity. But this does not negate the base structure of the disincentives, just that there are situations where they dont matter.
If you want to stop political crimes throwing people in jail for them is going to work.
This is Laffer Curve thinking. Increasing punishments could very well deter crimes if the current punishments are so low as to be under the optimum amount.