My position is that the x-men uses minorities to polish its shlock. It's a mostly one way relationship that consists of x-men writers exploiting real people's pain to sell comic books.
I think Grant Morrison said the X-Men was about being teenagers and I think that's right. It's definitely about youth and people's relationship with other young people and authority figures. It's why putting them in a school always works so well.
I think Grant Morrison said the X-Men was about being teenagers and I think that's right. It's definitely about youth and people's relationship with other young people and authority figures. It's why putting them in a school always works so well.
That's what any teen book is essentially about, though
Fencingsax on
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
I think Grant Morrison said the X-Men was about being teenagers and I think that's right. It's definitely about youth and people's relationship with other young people and authority figures. It's why putting them in a school always works so well.
That's what any teen book is essentially about, though
that's not what's unique about this teen book, i think the point is that it is always in essence, at its best, a teen book at all. which may seem obvious, but then you remember that loads of the most popular x-men are grown-ass adults and there are many tacks seemingly available to take any given x-book
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AtomicTofuShe's a straight-up supervillain, yoRegistered Userregular
Is the whole 'Spiderverse' thing gone now, with the winnowing of the multiverse? I mean, I know Spider-Gwen is still out there, but I just feel like it's an overall missed opportunity.
Because... are we pretending that Peter Parker couldn't at this point just... build a dimensional portal? Because Peter Parker probably could've done that shit over summer break when he was 17.
And how awesome would it be to have that be a thing?
Miles is in trouble, and gets to tell the bad guy "I have a Leopardon."
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
The whole point of the allegory is to essentially make minority issues relatable for people who are white, cis, and primarily male, though.
And really, when Kirby and Lee started, I don't think they were thinking of any specific minorities, they spent a lot more time on the superhero part than the minority issues part.
I've always been of two kinds about the whole mutants-as-minorities thing, I guess.
Right now, though, I cut the early days a lot of slack. In the 60s and 70s, the mostly-white media were so removed from non-white populations that mutants and aliens were almost more decipherable culturally. Like, the divide was real. The divide is still there, it's just that there's NO excuse not to be hiring POC, LGBTQ, and female creators.
I feel, pretty strongly, that Lee was saying something important in the only language he knew.
Also? Hard talk? A book about four Brown teenagers with superpowers fighting discrimination against Brown people would've sold about fifteen copies before watchdog and hate groups put an end to it. The 60s was a different time.
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
Like say, orcs in do-rags.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
That's where the super powers come in?
There is zero reason at least one of the original X-Men couldn't have been a minority, especially since Lee and Kirby would introduce Black Panther 3 years later.
It took 12 years for a non-white person to join the X-Men, a comic with a core premise of starring a group of hated and feared minorities.
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
Okay but it's not a terribly good allegory on that broad of a scale for the reason Blank pointed out. Animals as an allegory for the working class is a good allegory because the working class is often treated a lot like animals.
The original X-Men standing in for gay and trans people is an alright allegory because it's otherwise privileged white people who have some core part of themselves that the rest of their society finds distasteful and in response revokes some of those privileges from anyone who doesn't (or can't) suppress that part of themselves to "fit in".
Trying to map that to racial/ethnic minorities leaves a huge fucking gap because of the systemic oppression that affects these minorities from birth. Mutants that can hide their powers are fine. Mutants aren't vilified until their powers manifest, which explicitly doesn't happen until adolescence.
There's also the part where there is actually a good reason to be afraid of mutants and there is no good reason to be afraid of real life minorities, and conflating the two is... not good
I'm pretty sure that the allegory that was in the back of Kirby and Lee's minds was mainly anti-semitism. After all, they were two Jewish guys who both changed their names to better fit in with society. That it maps just as well (if not better) with LGBT folk was not something that I think occurred to them.
There's also the part where there is actually a good reason to be afraid of mutants and there is no good reason to be afraid of real life minorities, and conflating the two is... not good
I think it works better when you compare them to other powered heroes, like the FF and the Avengers. The public has just as much reason to hate and fear them, but they don't. It's arbitrary, just like real life discrimination.
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
That's where the super powers come in?
There is zero reason at least one of the original X-Men couldn't have been a minority, especially since Lee and Kirby would introduce Black Panther 3 years later.
It took 12 years for a non-white person to join the X-Men, a comic with a core premise of starring a group of hated and feared minorities.
That's not great!
To my understanding, white people didn't do a lot of writing about minorities as protagonists at all in the 60s, period. That was kind of a Thing. And inclusion of POC heroes was a BFD when it began. That's why Black Panther and Falcon were a huge deal.
Somebody's gotta be the first.
Also, Stanley Lieber changed his name to Stan Lee at least partially because comics weren't seen as legit work at the time. I literally just listened to him say this yesterday.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
That's a weird way to look at it. It's not like they use X-Men comics as an excuse for not having a lot of minority characters.
If you are using the X-Men as an allegory for minority issues, it kinda means you are not actually writing about the minority issues themselves. Now, that was important in, say, the 60s. But doing it now is weakass, and kind of cowardly
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The problem here is that the allegory involved a bunch of straight white people being labeled as minorities because of comic book super powers for a significant early chunk of their existence until they started bringing in actual minority characters. It's telling a minority allegory without any actual minorities involved.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
That's where the super powers come in?
There is zero reason at least one of the original X-Men couldn't have been a minority, especially since Lee and Kirby would introduce Black Panther 3 years later.
It took 12 years for a non-white person to join the X-Men, a comic with a core premise of starring a group of hated and feared minorities.
That's not great!
To my understanding, white people didn't do a lot of writing about minorities as protagonists at all in the 60s, period. That was kind of a Thing.
I think Ben Grimm was the Thing.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Also, if minorities screw their underage girlfriend while their parents look on approvingly, I don't want to know.
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Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
That's kind of a depressing moniker, now that I think about it
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
There was a terrible scene from Chuck Austen's X-Men run which was in the 2000s and about 40 years divorced from what the current discussion was talking about
Also, if minorities screw their underage girlfriend while their parents look on approvingly, I don't want to know.
I think I missed something, here...
I believe it’s a reference to Husk and Angel banging in the sky above Ma Guthrie. To be fair, Ma Guthrie is not into it and walks away.
And Husk was not underage, but the age differences are still big enough to be uncomfortable.
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
There was a terrible scene from Chuck Austen's X-Men run which was in the 2000s and about 40 years divorced from what the current discussion was talking about
ah, yes. i see now the entire conversation, and the causality in play that led from the first post to this one
Some spoilers for Venom #1 leaked and it sounds like Cates and Stegman are doing Immortal Iron Fist but for Venom
Which, yeah sure, okay
A Symbiote landed on Earth a loooong time ago, like in the middle ages at earliest, and it has woken up for the first time in a long time and is coming for Eddie. It can also fuck with and control other symbiotes and is trying to control Venom.
There's a new gruff old man who captures Eddie and is basically Symbiote Orson Randall, who reveals that black ops symbiote enhanced soldiers have been secretly used by governments for a long time, Flash was just the latest one
And now Eddie and the new guy are on the run from an ancient Symbiote living god and it's squad of possessed Symbiote super soldiers
Some spoilers for Venom #1 leaked and it sounds like Cates and Stegman are doing Immortal Iron Fist but for Venom
Which, yeah sure, okay
A Symbiote landed on Earth a loooong time ago, like in the middle ages at earliest, and it has woken up for the first time in a long time and is coming for Eddie. It can also fuck with and control other symbiotes and is trying to control Venom.
There's a new gruff old man who captures Eddie and is basically Symbiote Orson Randall, who reveals that black ops symbiote enhanced soldiers have been secretly used by governments for a long time, Flash was just the latest one
And now Eddie and the new guy are on the run from an ancient Symbiote living god and it's squad of possessed Symbiote super soldiers
For a minute I thought you meant this was the Venom movie and I was like "Man, the trailer was really misleading."
Some spoilers for Venom #1 leaked and it sounds like Cates and Stegman are doing Immortal Iron Fist but for Venom
Which, yeah sure, okay
A Symbiote landed on Earth a loooong time ago, like in the middle ages at earliest, and it has woken up for the first time in a long time and is coming for Eddie. It can also fuck with and control other symbiotes and is trying to control Venom.
There's a new gruff old man who captures Eddie and is basically Symbiote Orson Randall, who reveals that black ops symbiote enhanced soldiers have been secretly used by governments for a long time, Flash was just the latest one
And now Eddie and the new guy are on the run from an ancient Symbiote living god and it's squad of possessed Symbiote super soldiers
Posts
X-Men: School class
F4: Family
Justice League: Pantheon
That's what any teen book is essentially about, though
that's not what's unique about this teen book, i think the point is that it is always in essence, at its best, a teen book at all. which may seem obvious, but then you remember that loads of the most popular x-men are grown-ass adults and there are many tacks seemingly available to take any given x-book
Steam
Steam
Also, Comixology seems to be having a big Avengers/Thanos sale. Nothing crazy like the .99 thingy, but still pretty good maybe?
Any pretty good self-contained stuff that would be worth picking up?
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
Because... are we pretending that Peter Parker couldn't at this point just... build a dimensional portal? Because Peter Parker probably could've done that shit over summer break when he was 17.
And how awesome would it be to have that be a thing?
Miles is in trouble, and gets to tell the bad guy "I have a Leopardon."
I would argue that if you are writing about a thing via an allegory, then you are actually writing about the thing.
Now, whether that writing is any good or not is debatable, but that's like saying Orwell wasn't really writing about authoritarianism when he wrote Animal Farm.
The Animal Farm comparison doesn't hold up because Farm Animals aren't a privileged group suddenly made to be subjugated and feared because of a fantasy plot point.
And really, when Kirby and Lee started, I don't think they were thinking of any specific minorities, they spent a lot more time on the superhero part than the minority issues part.
I've always been of two kinds about the whole mutants-as-minorities thing, I guess.
Right now, though, I cut the early days a lot of slack. In the 60s and 70s, the mostly-white media were so removed from non-white populations that mutants and aliens were almost more decipherable culturally. Like, the divide was real. The divide is still there, it's just that there's NO excuse not to be hiring POC, LGBTQ, and female creators.
I feel, pretty strongly, that Lee was saying something important in the only language he knew.
Also? Hard talk? A book about four Brown teenagers with superpowers fighting discrimination against Brown people would've sold about fifteen copies before watchdog and hate groups put an end to it. The 60s was a different time.
Though... not that different, I guess.
I mean, if you tell a story as an allegory for minority rights, and use actual minorities, then it's just a story. Allegory requires a removal from the real life.
Like say, orcs in do-rags.
There is zero reason at least one of the original X-Men couldn't have been a minority, especially since Lee and Kirby would introduce Black Panther 3 years later.
It took 12 years for a non-white person to join the X-Men, a comic with a core premise of starring a group of hated and feared minorities.
That's not great!
Okay but it's not a terribly good allegory on that broad of a scale for the reason Blank pointed out. Animals as an allegory for the working class is a good allegory because the working class is often treated a lot like animals.
The original X-Men standing in for gay and trans people is an alright allegory because it's otherwise privileged white people who have some core part of themselves that the rest of their society finds distasteful and in response revokes some of those privileges from anyone who doesn't (or can't) suppress that part of themselves to "fit in".
Trying to map that to racial/ethnic minorities leaves a huge fucking gap because of the systemic oppression that affects these minorities from birth. Mutants that can hide their powers are fine. Mutants aren't vilified until their powers manifest, which explicitly doesn't happen until adolescence.
I think it works better when you compare them to other powered heroes, like the FF and the Avengers. The public has just as much reason to hate and fear them, but they don't. It's arbitrary, just like real life discrimination.
To my understanding, white people didn't do a lot of writing about minorities as protagonists at all in the 60s, period. That was kind of a Thing. And inclusion of POC heroes was a BFD when it began. That's why Black Panther and Falcon were a huge deal.
Somebody's gotta be the first.
Also, Stanley Lieber changed his name to Stan Lee at least partially because comics weren't seen as legit work at the time. I literally just listened to him say this yesterday.
I think Ben Grimm was the Thing.
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
I believe it’s a reference to Husk and Angel banging in the sky above Ma Guthrie. To be fair, Ma Guthrie is not into it and walks away.
And Husk was not underage, but the age differences are still big enough to be uncomfortable.
ah, yes. i see now the entire conversation, and the causality in play that led from the first post to this one
Chuck Austen
Which, yeah sure, okay
There's a new gruff old man who captures Eddie and is basically Symbiote Orson Randall, who reveals that black ops symbiote enhanced soldiers have been secretly used by governments for a long time, Flash was just the latest one
And now Eddie and the new guy are on the run from an ancient Symbiote living god and it's squad of possessed Symbiote super soldiers
For a minute I thought you meant this was the Venom movie and I was like "Man, the trailer was really misleading."
Goddamn it
I can't believe I want to read a Venom book!
Did David aja stop working