Though there are a lot of post-crime lines where Spidey is like "I better leave before the cops get here".
Eh, yeah. They pop in lines that imply some sort of tension a few times but like there are four Bad Guy Factions, and they're the only people that ever hassle you. I mean you fast-travel to police stations.
Edit: Actually they also frequently have him reference the Raft when he's fighting Rikers folks, so it's possible they were waffling on whether or not the escapee gangs were going to be from the Raft. Which, since it's an extensively Marvel-y place for vaguely bad possibly Skrulls and Kree (there were orange and green Raft folks, right?), would have felt a bit better than beating up people with unpaid parking tickets.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited September 2018
Man, I am super-glad this game does not delve into real-world shit. The notion that every piece of media everywhere has to carry some real-world message is absurd, if not outright unhealthy to be obsessing about ugly topics 24/7. It's an excellent Spidey story and that's the part of the game I give a shit about, not whether or not there's sufficiently nuanced commentary directed at the NYPD. That isn't the story. Spidey and friends are the story, the NYPD is almost entirely part of the background except for one character.
Yes, there could be a Spider-Man game to handle these sorts of topics. It would not be this game, and I'm glad this is the Spider-Man game we got instead of Gritty Depressing Topical Spider-Man 2018. And just because it isn't politically charged has zero relation to whether or not it's a good game, it just means you want it to be something it isn't and that's like me dinging Monster Hunter because I'm mad at it for not being a heartfelt story about abusing animals instead of a game about hunting monsters.
Ninja Snarl P on
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
edited September 2018
Also people are acting like there is just one single right way to handle the situation which just seems so very wrong.
First we need to note that this is specifically not our New York. Not just like a game based in New York obviously isn't real but is a complete alternate universe as part of the story as all Marvel stories are.
So now they are dealing with a fantastical world of their choosing. They have to pick and choose what subjects to tackle and what subjects they don't tackle. What things they want to see in this world and even what things they want to escape from in our world as escapism is also a part of superheros and video games for many people. Many of these are sensitive subjects. Subjects that if they don't tackle well there would be an endless outcry of people saying "If they couldn't handle the sensitivity of the subject they shouldn't have tried". So they picked the ones they felt they could handle and were best suited. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
DemonStacey on
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited September 2018
Yeah, I don't know how much more explicit it could be that this is not the real NYC, considering the enormous Avengers Tower and Oscorp towers planted squarely in the middle of the city and The Raft, filled with super-powered criminals, is sitting right offshore. Should the guys flying around with jetpacks also be carrying banners saying "this is not the real city"?
Oh, and there are mercenaries flying around with jetpacks hunting a guy with spider powers. Which is also a pretty good indicator of how much this isn't the real NYC.
I don't see why that's the most important part. It's not real. But real people form opinions on and take ideas from things that aren't real all the time.
that's like me dinging Monster Hunter because I'm mad at it for not being a heartfelt story about abusing animals instead of a game about hunting monsters.
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
I think you are applying a narrow and personal definition of what you want the game to be. It's a common nerd thing, I guess. People are allowed to engage with art and media based on their own personal experiences and background... indeed, that's all that we ever can do, as human beings. Art can be seen through so many lenses, and the spectrum of these lenses enriches the art... it doesn't diminish it.
While I don't personally agree with the sentiment that their depiction of the NYPD lacks the proper nuance (this is a superhero game about relationships, at its core, and trying to balance those relationships and failing), I won't disparage them from making those statements when obviously they saw something in it that did not sit well with them. Madden isn't going to talk about kneeling at football games or concussions/head injuries in anything other than the most superficial detail, but that doesn't mean that someone who is passionate about those subjects is simply going to ignore their own experience and knowledge when playing it.
This is not a game exploring the themes of police violence and the life of prisoners. Hell, go play A Way Out, a game about corrupt cops and prison breaks! That's a game literally built around the premise if you want that kind of thing.
Spider-Man is not a game with an agenda.
You don't need an agenda to have an impact. Knowing how people will perceive and respond to your work is useful regardless of tone.
I completely agree with this but I also think it’s totally possible for certain subjects to be outside the scope of this game.
I think the key is to discuss this kind of thing outside the game , as the media has done/is doing, and inform people that there is a much deeper issue at play than what the game portrays.
I think they could have made the game without the interaction with police, but it works into the narrative in an interesting way and I am glad that Peter has Yuri to communicate with besides the usual suspects. And thematically I think him having a line to the cops makes sense, since he is one of those heroes that has a positive reputation with the general public.
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
Actually, JJJ is not an Alex Jones analog. He's Bill O'Riley. A "journalist" forced out of his news program who moves to internet podcasts to push his crazy asshole agenda while using his "credentials" as a "journalist" to get people to believe him.
Clearly what they need to do is do some research, figure out exactly what percent of real world NY cops are corrupt, and have that percentage attack Spidey for no reason.
If you hang around after a crime you do get cops showing up. sometimes they say thanks, sometimes they say they already had it under control, and sometimes they say that Jameson's right, you're a menace.
And this is after 8 years of Spidey generally being a good guy, so the usual fear of change and the unknown can't apply anymore.
And while we're at it, let's assume that the non-pychopathic criminals who escaped from Rikers didn't go to the nearest rooftop to start taking potshots at passing superheros, and actually went home or ran for it, as suggested. But for some reason we didn't see them, since they weren't on a rooftop taking potshots at Spider-Man.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Though there are a lot of post-crime lines where Spidey is like "I better leave before the cops get here".
Eh, yeah. They pop in lines that imply some sort of tension a few times but like there are four Bad Guy Factions, and they're the only people that ever hassle you. I mean you fast-travel to police stations.
Edit: Actually they also frequently have him reference the Raft when he's fighting Rikers folks, so it's possible they were waffling on whether or not the escapee gangs were going to be from the Raft. Which, since it's an extensively Marvel-y place for vaguely bad possibly Skrulls and Kree (there were orange and green Raft folks, right?), would have felt a bit better than beating up people with unpaid parking tickets.
you seem to think that people worldwide playing this game know what rikers is for not criminals.
let me tell you, as a dude who is form north america, has lived in the states, and tends to be informed, I had NO IDEA rikers was closing and was mostly for minor style crimes. In the fiction of the game they are simply using a real world named prison because people recognize it and just assume bad criminals are in there! that's the long and short of it.
Whether they should have done it is I guess a different question but as some dude in Vancouver it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. (also all the people in jump suits with whips and shit are from the raft, the more thug type jump suit dudes are from rikers)
edit - a couple small things too
1) the police network spiderman hacks into is just a rebroadcaster of police chatter as far as I can tell and not some sort of crazy surveillance state thing
2) spider-man has literally 1 friend in the entire NYPD, Yuri
3) spider-man avoids the cops as much as he can during almost every crime activity, he actively comments on this
4) in a side mission where he helps a cop the mission opens with the cop not liking spider-man and ends with spider-man saying "hey i'm not bad, tell your friends"
like the game spends a ton of time talking about how cops don't like spider-man and how spider-man isn't a cop. people just get all pissy cause he's helping the cops in a general sense and that is INSANE. Cops are supposing to be helping the public in a "general" sense.
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
I think you are applying a narrow and personal definition of what you want the game to be. It's a common nerd thing, I guess. People are allowed to engage with art and media based on their own personal experiences and background... indeed, that's all that we ever can do, as human beings. Art can be seen through so many lenses, and the spectrum of these lenses enriches the art... it doesn't diminish it.
While I don't personally agree with the sentiment that their depiction of the NYPD lacks the proper nuance (this is a superhero game about relationships, at its core, and trying to balance those relationships and failing), I won't disparage them from making those statements when obviously they saw something in it that did not sit well with them. Madden isn't going to talk about kneeling at football games or concussions/head injuries in anything other than the most superficial detail, but that doesn't mean that someone who is passionate about those subjects is simply going to ignore their own experience and knowledge when playing it.
Right but.. I'm passionate about these issues too. I think real world police violence and criminal abuse is horrifying.
But I can separate fiction from reality. I know these people aren't real and that what they represent is akin to a Saturday morning cartoon version of bad guys. You notice how they never bleed, these bad guys are inherently non-realistic to make us feel ok about batting them around like a cat toy.
I don't think it's the game's responsibility to address the issues people want to see addressed. Remember, kids play these games and a child's opinion of police is set by things in the media like Paw Patrol. Cops in media are almost always portrayed as heroes. Expecting Spider-Man to change the status quo is unrealistic.
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
I think you are applying a narrow and personal definition of what you want the game to be. It's a common nerd thing, I guess. People are allowed to engage with art and media based on their own personal experiences and background... indeed, that's all that we ever can do, as human beings. Art can be seen through so many lenses, and the spectrum of these lenses enriches the art... it doesn't diminish it.
While I don't personally agree with the sentiment that their depiction of the NYPD lacks the proper nuance (this is a superhero game about relationships, at its core, and trying to balance those relationships and failing), I won't disparage them from making those statements when obviously they saw something in it that did not sit well with them. Madden isn't going to talk about kneeling at football games or concussions/head injuries in anything other than the most superficial detail, but that doesn't mean that someone who is passionate about those subjects is simply going to ignore their own experience and knowledge when playing it.
Right but.. I'm passionate about these issues too. I think real world police violence and criminal abuse is horrifying.
But I can separate fiction from reality.
And do you think these critics/gamers/people cannot?
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
Actually, JJJ is not an Alex Jones analog. He's Bill O'Riley. A "journalist" forced out of his news program who moves to internet podcasts to push his crazy asshole agenda while using his "credentials" as a "journalist" to get people to believe him.
Eh. Bill O'Reilly isn't known for his temper tantrums. Both JJJ and Alex Jones are VERY well-known for their temper tantrums on the air.
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
I think you are applying a narrow and personal definition of what you want the game to be. It's a common nerd thing, I guess. People are allowed to engage with art and media based on their own personal experiences and background... indeed, that's all that we ever can do, as human beings. Art can be seen through so many lenses, and the spectrum of these lenses enriches the art... it doesn't diminish it.
While I don't personally agree with the sentiment that their depiction of the NYPD lacks the proper nuance (this is a superhero game about relationships, at its core, and trying to balance those relationships and failing), I won't disparage them from making those statements when obviously they saw something in it that did not sit well with them. Madden isn't going to talk about kneeling at football games or concussions/head injuries in anything other than the most superficial detail, but that doesn't mean that someone who is passionate about those subjects is simply going to ignore their own experience and knowledge when playing it.
Right but.. I'm passionate about these issues too. I think real world police violence and criminal abuse is horrifying.
But I can separate fiction from reality.
And do you think these critics cannot?
They're being inconsistent then when acknowledging things that are problematic.
As I've brought up many times now, Spider-Man does worse things than police in this game version of New York. He consistently beats the crap out of criminals with little information on the situation; there is no due process with Spidey- he swings in, maims you, and leaves with a quip.
Don't be disappointed that Spidey helps the police, be mad he teaches kids it's okay to brutalize criminals.
It makes no sense to hold fake cops in a work of fiction to the same standard we do real police, because the real police aren't as corrupt from the ground up. The real police aren't jailing super villains thst can level whole city blocks in a single swoop. They don't compare in the slightest to real world situations
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
Actually, JJJ is not an Alex Jones analog. He's Bill O'Riley. A "journalist" forced out of his news program who moves to internet podcasts to push his crazy asshole agenda while using his "credentials" as a "journalist" to get people to believe him.
Eh. Bill O'Reilly isn't known for his temper tantrums. Both JJJ and Alex Jones are VERY well-known for their temper tantrums on the air.
Bill's temper tantrums were famous. He was also very big on belittling his guests and shutting them off before they could respond to him.
Why not take the game to task for the usage of firearms in public spaces? Mass shootings are a hot button issue im passionate about.
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think it does, actually! It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but there are definitely Osbourne/Trump parallels. JJJ is definitely an Alex Jones analogue in this one.
Actually, JJJ is not an Alex Jones analog. He's Bill O'Riley. A "journalist" forced out of his news program who moves to internet podcasts to push his crazy asshole agenda while using his "credentials" as a "journalist" to get people to believe him.
Eh. Bill O'Reilly isn't known for his temper tantrums. Both JJJ and Alex Jones are VERY well-known for their temper tantrums on the air.
Bill's temper tantrums were famous. He was also very big on belittling his guests and shutting them off before they could respond to him.
But they weren't a selling point of his "character" on Fox. He wasn't sold as a loud ranting conspiracy theorist.
It’s a testament to the game’s writing that, while he evokes other famous loudmouths, JJJ in the game is 100 percent classic Jameson. He’s a good reporter, a loudmouth bully, genuinely cares about New York, worships cops and soldiers and astronauts, and hates the crap out of Spider-Man.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
It’s a testament to the game’s writing that, while he evokes other famous loudmouths, JJJ in the game is 100 percent classic Jameson. He’s a good reporter, a loudmouth bully, genuinely cares about New York, worships cops and soldiers and astronauts, and hates the crap out of Spider-Man.
He's a terrible reporter though. Everything he says is tainted by his personal feelings and will make shit up on the fly and try and pass it off as factual.
That is literally the worst stuff a reporter can be doing and the opposite of what reporting is.
It’s a testament to the game’s writing that, while he evokes other famous loudmouths, JJJ in the game is 100 percent classic Jameson. He’s a good reporter, a loudmouth bully, genuinely cares about New York, worships cops and soldiers and astronauts, and hates the crap out of Spider-Man.
He's a terrible reporter though. Everything he says is tainted by his personal feelings and will make shit up on the fly and try and pass it off as factual.
That is literally the worst stuff a reporter can be doing and the opposite of what reporting is.
He’s generally correct about any given situation right up until the Spider-Man brain eater gets him. That setup is the joke in half the podcasts.
I think in-game JJJ is an alright depiction, and the radio show works as a way to have him consistently pop in. But he's overboard in a way I like less.
My favorite JJJ writing is generally EITHER he's like a solid investigative reporter who's categorically against giving a masked man the benefit of the doubt for what are pretty defensible reasons. He doesn't make things up, he just never reports with any positive bent anything Spider-Man does, because that guy could be anyone and if he's going to remain anonymous well he'll have to work for it, etc.
OR he's literally in the Spider-Slayer suit cackling maniacally as he chases Spider-Man through the city.
The game one was closer to that angle, but with the key flaw of never being featured in a side-mission where you fight the Spider-Slayer.
Though there are a lot of post-crime lines where Spidey is like "I better leave before the cops get here".
Eh, yeah. They pop in lines that imply some sort of tension a few times but like there are four Bad Guy Factions, and they're the only people that ever hassle you. I mean you fast-travel to police stations.
Edit: Actually they also frequently have him reference the Raft when he's fighting Rikers folks, so it's possible they were waffling on whether or not the escapee gangs were going to be from the Raft. Which, since it's an extensively Marvel-y place for vaguely bad possibly Skrulls and Kree (there were orange and green Raft folks, right?), would have felt a bit better than beating up people with unpaid parking tickets.
you seem to think that people worldwide playing this game know what rikers is for not criminals.
let me tell you, as a dude who is form north america, has lived in the states, and tends to be informed, I had NO IDEA rikers was closing and was mostly for minor style crimes. In the fiction of the game they are simply using a real world named prison because people recognize it and just assume bad criminals are in there! that's the long and short of it.
Whether they should have done it is I guess a different question but as some dude in Vancouver it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. (also all the people in jump suits with whips and shit are from the raft, the more thug type jump suit dudes are from rikers)
edit - a couple small things too
1) the police network spiderman hacks into is just a rebroadcaster of police chatter as far as I can tell and not some sort of crazy surveillance state thing
2) spider-man has literally 1 friend in the entire NYPD, Yuri
3) spider-man avoids the cops as much as he can during almost every crime activity, he actively comments on this
4) in a side mission where he helps a cop the mission opens with the cop not liking spider-man and ends with spider-man saying "hey i'm not bad, tell your friends"
like the game spends a ton of time talking about how cops don't like spider-man and how spider-man isn't a cop. people just get all pissy cause he's helping the cops in a general sense and that is INSANE. Cops are supposing to be helping the public in a "general" sense.
No no, that's literally the thing I'm talking about. Not that there's -and this is a term I just invented- Ludo-Narrative Dissonance, but that most people are playing yet another game that presents orange-jumpsuit wearing slavering monsters as the average inhabitant of Rikers Island, a real place that tortures real New Yorkers.
I think that presenting them like this contributes in a small way to the fact that we tend to forget what jails are and support torturing the poor because they can't pay bail. People in the US, people in New York are surprised that Rikers isn't just for face-eating monsters from Mars because we've spent so long using it as shorthand for Bad Dudes You Need To Punch. It makes it easier to be generically "tough on crime" when you think of prisoners as non-people.
I think in-game JJJ is an alright depiction, and the radio show works as a way to have him consistently pop in. But he's overboard in a way I like less.
My favorite JJJ writing is generally EITHER he's like a solid investigative reporter who's categorically against giving a masked man the benefit of the doubt for what are pretty defensible reasons. He doesn't make things up, he just never reports with any positive bent anything Spider-Man does, because that guy could be anyone and if he's going to remain anonymous well he'll have to work for it, etc.
OR he's literally in the Spider-Slayer suit cackling maniacally as he chases Spider-Man through the city.
The game one was closer to that angle, but with the key flaw of never being featured in a side-mission where you fight the Spider-Slayer.
The Aunt May bit was rough, but it was the final confrontation with Otto got that got me. When he promised that he definitely wouldn't use his knowledge of Spidey's identity as blackmail, you could just see Peter realize the person he knew was gone, and there wasn't any neuro-chip to blame this time. And that he was going to have to let what was left of that person go to prison, in a body that was slowly shutting down. Harsh. Lowenthal hit it out of the park all through that showdown and aftermath.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
I think in-game JJJ is an alright depiction, and the radio show works as a way to have him consistently pop in. But he's overboard in a way I like less.
My favorite JJJ writing is generally EITHER he's like a solid investigative reporter who's categorically against giving a masked man the benefit of the doubt for what are pretty defensible reasons. He doesn't make things up, he just never reports with any positive bent anything Spider-Man does, because that guy could be anyone and if he's going to remain anonymous well he'll have to work for it, etc.
OR he's literally in the Spider-Slayer suit cackling maniacally as he chases Spider-Man through the city.
The game one was closer to that angle, but with the key flaw of never being featured in a side-mission where you fight the Spider-Slayer.
Though there are a lot of post-crime lines where Spidey is like "I better leave before the cops get here".
Eh, yeah. They pop in lines that imply some sort of tension a few times but like there are four Bad Guy Factions, and they're the only people that ever hassle you. I mean you fast-travel to police stations.
Edit: Actually they also frequently have him reference the Raft when he's fighting Rikers folks, so it's possible they were waffling on whether or not the escapee gangs were going to be from the Raft. Which, since it's an extensively Marvel-y place for vaguely bad possibly Skrulls and Kree (there were orange and green Raft folks, right?), would have felt a bit better than beating up people with unpaid parking tickets.
you seem to think that people worldwide playing this game know what rikers is for not criminals.
let me tell you, as a dude who is form north america, has lived in the states, and tends to be informed, I had NO IDEA rikers was closing and was mostly for minor style crimes. In the fiction of the game they are simply using a real world named prison because people recognize it and just assume bad criminals are in there! that's the long and short of it.
Whether they should have done it is I guess a different question but as some dude in Vancouver it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. (also all the people in jump suits with whips and shit are from the raft, the more thug type jump suit dudes are from rikers)
edit - a couple small things too
1) the police network spiderman hacks into is just a rebroadcaster of police chatter as far as I can tell and not some sort of crazy surveillance state thing
2) spider-man has literally 1 friend in the entire NYPD, Yuri
3) spider-man avoids the cops as much as he can during almost every crime activity, he actively comments on this
4) in a side mission where he helps a cop the mission opens with the cop not liking spider-man and ends with spider-man saying "hey i'm not bad, tell your friends"
like the game spends a ton of time talking about how cops don't like spider-man and how spider-man isn't a cop. people just get all pissy cause he's helping the cops in a general sense and that is INSANE. Cops are supposing to be helping the public in a "general" sense.
No no, that's literally the thing I'm talking about. Not that there's -and this is a term I just invented- Ludo-Narrative Dissonance, but that most people are playing yet another game that presents orange-jumpsuit wearing slavering monsters as the average inhabitant of Rikers Island, a real place that tortures real New Yorkers.
I think that presenting them like this contributes in a small way to the fact that we tend to forget what jails are and support torturing the poor because they can't pay bail. People in the US, people in New York are surprised that Rikers isn't just for face-eating monsters from Mars because we've spent so long using it as shorthand for Bad Dudes You Need To Punch. It makes it easier to be generically "tough on crime" when you think of prisoners as non-people.
eh, it's a video game, showing a jail as having a violent criminal doesn't seem like a big stretch. I get what you're saying but the way it's presented in the game, especially since spider-man is generally not super friendly with the police, but still anti-crime, doesn't bug me.
I've had this game since release and played a fair bit, but I've barely even scratched the surface of the story. Got to find all those backpacks and take pics of landmarks!
Though I've done those now so it's on to thug crimes and Fisk towers.
Then I better go and check out something to do with this mask I guess...
This game is going to take me a LONG time to finish.
I think in-game JJJ is an alright depiction, and the radio show works as a way to have him consistently pop in. But he's overboard in a way I like less.
My favorite JJJ writing is generally EITHER he's like a solid investigative reporter who's categorically against giving a masked man the benefit of the doubt for what are pretty defensible reasons. He doesn't make things up, he just never reports with any positive bent anything Spider-Man does, because that guy could be anyone and if he's going to remain anonymous well he'll have to work for it, etc.
OR he's literally in the Spider-Slayer suit cackling maniacally as he chases Spider-Man through the city.
The game one was closer to that angle, but with the key flaw of never being featured in a side-mission where you fight the Spider-Slayer.
Though there are a lot of post-crime lines where Spidey is like "I better leave before the cops get here".
Eh, yeah. They pop in lines that imply some sort of tension a few times but like there are four Bad Guy Factions, and they're the only people that ever hassle you. I mean you fast-travel to police stations.
Edit: Actually they also frequently have him reference the Raft when he's fighting Rikers folks, so it's possible they were waffling on whether or not the escapee gangs were going to be from the Raft. Which, since it's an extensively Marvel-y place for vaguely bad possibly Skrulls and Kree (there were orange and green Raft folks, right?), would have felt a bit better than beating up people with unpaid parking tickets.
you seem to think that people worldwide playing this game know what rikers is for not criminals.
let me tell you, as a dude who is form north america, has lived in the states, and tends to be informed, I had NO IDEA rikers was closing and was mostly for minor style crimes. In the fiction of the game they are simply using a real world named prison because people recognize it and just assume bad criminals are in there! that's the long and short of it.
Whether they should have done it is I guess a different question but as some dude in Vancouver it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. (also all the people in jump suits with whips and shit are from the raft, the more thug type jump suit dudes are from rikers)
edit - a couple small things too
1) the police network spiderman hacks into is just a rebroadcaster of police chatter as far as I can tell and not some sort of crazy surveillance state thing
2) spider-man has literally 1 friend in the entire NYPD, Yuri
3) spider-man avoids the cops as much as he can during almost every crime activity, he actively comments on this
4) in a side mission where he helps a cop the mission opens with the cop not liking spider-man and ends with spider-man saying "hey i'm not bad, tell your friends"
like the game spends a ton of time talking about how cops don't like spider-man and how spider-man isn't a cop. people just get all pissy cause he's helping the cops in a general sense and that is INSANE. Cops are supposing to be helping the public in a "general" sense.
No no, that's literally the thing I'm talking about. Not that there's -and this is a term I just invented- Ludo-Narrative Dissonance, but that most people are playing yet another game that presents orange-jumpsuit wearing slavering monsters as the average inhabitant of Rikers Island, a real place that tortures real New Yorkers.
I think that presenting them like this contributes in a small way to the fact that we tend to forget what jails are and support torturing the poor because they can't pay bail. People in the US, people in New York are surprised that Rikers isn't just for face-eating monsters from Mars because we've spent so long using it as shorthand for Bad Dudes You Need To Punch. It makes it easier to be generically "tough on crime" when you think of prisoners as non-people.
eh, it's a video game, showing a jail as having a violent criminal doesn't seem like a big stretch. I get what you're saying but the way it's presented in the game, especially since spider-man is generally not super friendly with the police, but still anti-crime, doesn't bug me.
And 100% of the criminals we see Spidey going after in the game are actively committing violent crimes. The game isn't saying 100% of the people in Rikers are evil, but it's pretty obvious that a bunch of guys running around shooting rocket launcher and machine guns at cops and taking random civilians hostage are not in any kind of morally grey area. Any of the criminals that just light out and hide aren't Spidey's problem and it would be pretty pointless to put that in the game.
Parker helps his Aunt May at a homeless shelter for crying out loud, and works in a lab for little to no pay because he believes Otto is doing things that will help the world. Parker clearly backs the idea of helping people who need help instead of judging them, Spider-Man is what he does when people start pulling out guns and taking stuff by force.
I actually really like that JJJ has some really good insights and truly valid criticisms of Spider-Man, alongside his paranoia, narcissism, conspiracy, nationalism, hyperbole, deeply flawed and fallacious reasoning, etc
Because people are very complicated and the idea that we are fixed, definitive selves is kind of a fiction, and also sometimes the context can change how a person's ideas sound
It struck me as very plausible that JJJ actually was calmer, more reasonable and more convincing during times of real crisis. For that kind of person it would be almost a relief to see the crisis actually here
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
In fairness to Jonah, he’s never even come close to the sub-gutter-levels of depravity that Alex Jones is willing to sink to.
Eh, when he's slapping people with the label of being "low information", their veering pretty deep into Jones territory; he also frequently directly says that Spider-Man is actively causing the problems he solves in order to get the fame from solving them, despite having no evidence. The biggest difference is probably that Jameson only hates Spider-Man, whereas Jones hates a broad, diverse selection of groups and individuals.
I enjoyed the Jonah bits, but I'm honestly also glad they have an option to turn him off so people don't have to listen to an annoyingly good parody of Alex Jones if they don't want to.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
In my head cannon Peter Parker is a really shitty photographer but thinks he's great, so I always try to take the worst photo I can think of for any given landmark. Then I'm cackling like an idiot over this awful photo of an armpit on a statue and Peter's all like "Magnifique!" I should have taken screenshots. Some of them were really atrocious.
In fairness to Jonah, he’s never even come close to the sub-gutter-levels of depravity that Alex Jones is willing to sink to.
Eh, when he's slapping people with the label of being "low information", their veering pretty deep into Jones territory; he also frequently directly says that Spider-Man is actively causing the problems he solves in order to get the fame from solving them, despite having no evidence. The biggest difference is probably that Jameson only hates Spider-Man, whereas Jones hates a broad, diverse selection of groups and individuals.
I enjoyed the Jonah bits, but I'm honestly also glad they have an option to turn him off so people don't have to listen to an annoyingly good parody of Alex Jones if they don't want to.
Jonah would punch out Alex Jones as soon as the words “Sandy Hook” left his mouth.
Jonah’s an asshole and a blowhard, but deep, deep down there’s a heart in there. Alex Jones is a monster on every basic human level. I understand the easy comparison, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, personally.
Jonah warned about punks with tracksuits and goldchains, and what do you know, it's the next guy you fight.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
Alex Jones is at his core a shill, foisting fake supplements and bugout bags on people gullible enough to believe the drivel that comes out of his mouth. I don't think Alex Jones believes even half of the things he says. To him, it's just the product, and it makes him money.
J. Jonah Jameson is a fucking asshole and I wouldn't want to have even a five-minute conversation with him, but he seems like he's got principles.
At first the podcast makes him come off like a conspiracy assclown, but as the game progresses and the story moves forward he actually manages to say some reasonable and maybe even insightful things. He's still an asshole, he's just a correct asshole. God forbid someone contradict or outsmart him on his own show, but meaningful words come out of his mouth from time to time. He has conviction.
Alex Jones is at his core a shill, foisting fake supplements and bugout bags on people gullible enough to believe the drivel that comes out of his mouth.
I really like the bit in Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies where JJJ refuses to give any information on a freelancer he's used just out of principle. He treats Peter like shit but would rather be assaulted by a super villain than give out his contact info.
Probably the worst position JJJ takes in this game is the one bit where he asks why the government is, to paraphrase, "wasting money" on stuff like cancer treatments for the Vulture. Yes, the fact that Toomes is a big-time murderer is a big part of why he elicits no sympathy from Jonah, I'm sure. But that kinda attitude, applied more broadly to people in prison, is all too common in the real world, and it's not a good path to go down.
Enlong on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
Frankly I think the JJJ is some of the better social commentary in the game. For the most part you’re supposed to look at the things he says, like wasting money to treat criminals with cancer, as despicable talk from an unrepentant reprobate.
People should not come away from spider-man and be all “I wanna be just like J Jonah!”
It's hard to perfectly nail down JJJ's character, since he's been all over the place over the course of 55 years of comics. Sometimes he's a great journalist with integrity for days, sometimes he's written as a lunatic willing to do unethical things to expose Spider-Man for the menace he is. There was even a story that suggested that Jonah actually thinks SM is good, and only gives him shit in the newspaper to somehow motivate him to be even better (don't ask me to explain the logic). But there are loads of comics where it's clear he really believes SM to be a menace. And since Marvel refuses to do any real continuity reboots like DC, writers have to reconcile all these contradicting versions of Jonah, or they just pick their favorite version and ignore the rest.
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Eh, yeah. They pop in lines that imply some sort of tension a few times but like there are four Bad Guy Factions, and they're the only people that ever hassle you. I mean you fast-travel to police stations.
Edit: Actually they also frequently have him reference the Raft when he's fighting Rikers folks, so it's possible they were waffling on whether or not the escapee gangs were going to be from the Raft. Which, since it's an extensively Marvel-y place for vaguely bad possibly Skrulls and Kree (there were orange and green Raft folks, right?), would have felt a bit better than beating up people with unpaid parking tickets.
Yes, there could be a Spider-Man game to handle these sorts of topics. It would not be this game, and I'm glad this is the Spider-Man game we got instead of Gritty Depressing Topical Spider-Man 2018. And just because it isn't politically charged has zero relation to whether or not it's a good game, it just means you want it to be something it isn't and that's like me dinging Monster Hunter because I'm mad at it for not being a heartfelt story about abusing animals instead of a game about hunting monsters.
First we need to note that this is specifically not our New York. Not just like a game based in New York obviously isn't real but is a complete alternate universe as part of the story as all Marvel stories are.
So now they are dealing with a fantastical world of their choosing. They have to pick and choose what subjects to tackle and what subjects they don't tackle. What things they want to see in this world and even what things they want to escape from in our world as escapism is also a part of superheros and video games for many people. Many of these are sensitive subjects. Subjects that if they don't tackle well there would be an endless outcry of people saying "If they couldn't handle the sensitivity of the subject they shouldn't have tried". So they picked the ones they felt they could handle and were best suited. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Oh, and there are mercenaries flying around with jetpacks hunting a guy with spider powers. Which is also a pretty good indicator of how much this isn't the real NYC.
>.>
<.<
(I'm totally kidding and this is off-topic)
Why does the game not comment on the parallels between Osbourne and Trump? There's lots of room for allegories there!
Why why why? Because the game doesn't have to.
I think you are applying a narrow and personal definition of what you want the game to be. It's a common nerd thing, I guess. People are allowed to engage with art and media based on their own personal experiences and background... indeed, that's all that we ever can do, as human beings. Art can be seen through so many lenses, and the spectrum of these lenses enriches the art... it doesn't diminish it.
While I don't personally agree with the sentiment that their depiction of the NYPD lacks the proper nuance (this is a superhero game about relationships, at its core, and trying to balance those relationships and failing), I won't disparage them from making those statements when obviously they saw something in it that did not sit well with them. Madden isn't going to talk about kneeling at football games or concussions/head injuries in anything other than the most superficial detail, but that doesn't mean that someone who is passionate about those subjects is simply going to ignore their own experience and knowledge when playing it.
I completely agree with this but I also think it’s totally possible for certain subjects to be outside the scope of this game.
I think the key is to discuss this kind of thing outside the game , as the media has done/is doing, and inform people that there is a much deeper issue at play than what the game portrays.
I think they could have made the game without the interaction with police, but it works into the narrative in an interesting way and I am glad that Peter has Yuri to communicate with besides the usual suspects. And thematically I think him having a line to the cops makes sense, since he is one of those heroes that has a positive reputation with the general public.
Actually, JJJ is not an Alex Jones analog. He's Bill O'Riley. A "journalist" forced out of his news program who moves to internet podcasts to push his crazy asshole agenda while using his "credentials" as a "journalist" to get people to believe him.
If you hang around after a crime you do get cops showing up. sometimes they say thanks, sometimes they say they already had it under control, and sometimes they say that Jameson's right, you're a menace.
And this is after 8 years of Spidey generally being a good guy, so the usual fear of change and the unknown can't apply anymore.
And while we're at it, let's assume that the non-pychopathic criminals who escaped from Rikers didn't go to the nearest rooftop to start taking potshots at passing superheros, and actually went home or ran for it, as suggested. But for some reason we didn't see them, since they weren't on a rooftop taking potshots at Spider-Man.
you seem to think that people worldwide playing this game know what rikers is for not criminals.
let me tell you, as a dude who is form north america, has lived in the states, and tends to be informed, I had NO IDEA rikers was closing and was mostly for minor style crimes. In the fiction of the game they are simply using a real world named prison because people recognize it and just assume bad criminals are in there! that's the long and short of it.
Whether they should have done it is I guess a different question but as some dude in Vancouver it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. (also all the people in jump suits with whips and shit are from the raft, the more thug type jump suit dudes are from rikers)
edit - a couple small things too
1) the police network spiderman hacks into is just a rebroadcaster of police chatter as far as I can tell and not some sort of crazy surveillance state thing
2) spider-man has literally 1 friend in the entire NYPD, Yuri
3) spider-man avoids the cops as much as he can during almost every crime activity, he actively comments on this
4) in a side mission where he helps a cop the mission opens with the cop not liking spider-man and ends with spider-man saying "hey i'm not bad, tell your friends"
like the game spends a ton of time talking about how cops don't like spider-man and how spider-man isn't a cop. people just get all pissy cause he's helping the cops in a general sense and that is INSANE. Cops are supposing to be helping the public in a "general" sense.
But I can separate fiction from reality. I know these people aren't real and that what they represent is akin to a Saturday morning cartoon version of bad guys. You notice how they never bleed, these bad guys are inherently non-realistic to make us feel ok about batting them around like a cat toy.
I don't think it's the game's responsibility to address the issues people want to see addressed. Remember, kids play these games and a child's opinion of police is set by things in the media like Paw Patrol. Cops in media are almost always portrayed as heroes. Expecting Spider-Man to change the status quo is unrealistic.
They're being inconsistent then when acknowledging things that are problematic.
As I've brought up many times now, Spider-Man does worse things than police in this game version of New York. He consistently beats the crap out of criminals with little information on the situation; there is no due process with Spidey- he swings in, maims you, and leaves with a quip.
Don't be disappointed that Spidey helps the police, be mad he teaches kids it's okay to brutalize criminals.
It makes no sense to hold fake cops in a work of fiction to the same standard we do real police, because the real police aren't as corrupt from the ground up. The real police aren't jailing super villains thst can level whole city blocks in a single swoop. They don't compare in the slightest to real world situations
Bill's temper tantrums were famous. He was also very big on belittling his guests and shutting them off before they could respond to him.
He's a terrible reporter though. Everything he says is tainted by his personal feelings and will make shit up on the fly and try and pass it off as factual.
That is literally the worst stuff a reporter can be doing and the opposite of what reporting is.
He’s generally correct about any given situation right up until the Spider-Man brain eater gets him. That setup is the joke in half the podcasts.
My favorite JJJ writing is generally EITHER he's like a solid investigative reporter who's categorically against giving a masked man the benefit of the doubt for what are pretty defensible reasons. He doesn't make things up, he just never reports with any positive bent anything Spider-Man does, because that guy could be anyone and if he's going to remain anonymous well he'll have to work for it, etc.
OR he's literally in the Spider-Slayer suit cackling maniacally as he chases Spider-Man through the city.
The game one was closer to that angle, but with the key flaw of never being featured in a side-mission where you fight the Spider-Slayer.
No no, that's literally the thing I'm talking about. Not that there's -and this is a term I just invented- Ludo-Narrative Dissonance, but that most people are playing yet another game that presents orange-jumpsuit wearing slavering monsters as the average inhabitant of Rikers Island, a real place that tortures real New Yorkers.
I think that presenting them like this contributes in a small way to the fact that we tend to forget what jails are and support torturing the poor because they can't pay bail. People in the US, people in New York are surprised that Rikers isn't just for face-eating monsters from Mars because we've spent so long using it as shorthand for Bad Dudes You Need To Punch. It makes it easier to be generically "tough on crime" when you think of prisoners as non-people.
JJJ needs to settle the Scorpion lawsuit first!
eh, it's a video game, showing a jail as having a violent criminal doesn't seem like a big stretch. I get what you're saying but the way it's presented in the game, especially since spider-man is generally not super friendly with the police, but still anti-crime, doesn't bug me.
Though I've done those now so it's on to thug crimes and Fisk towers.
Then I better go and check out something to do with this mask I guess...
This game is going to take me a LONG time to finish.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
And 100% of the criminals we see Spidey going after in the game are actively committing violent crimes. The game isn't saying 100% of the people in Rikers are evil, but it's pretty obvious that a bunch of guys running around shooting rocket launcher and machine guns at cops and taking random civilians hostage are not in any kind of morally grey area. Any of the criminals that just light out and hide aren't Spidey's problem and it would be pretty pointless to put that in the game.
Parker helps his Aunt May at a homeless shelter for crying out loud, and works in a lab for little to no pay because he believes Otto is doing things that will help the world. Parker clearly backs the idea of helping people who need help instead of judging them, Spider-Man is what he does when people start pulling out guns and taking stuff by force.
Because people are very complicated and the idea that we are fixed, definitive selves is kind of a fiction, and also sometimes the context can change how a person's ideas sound
It struck me as very plausible that JJJ actually was calmer, more reasonable and more convincing during times of real crisis. For that kind of person it would be almost a relief to see the crisis actually here
Eh, when he's slapping people with the label of being "low information", their veering pretty deep into Jones territory; he also frequently directly says that Spider-Man is actively causing the problems he solves in order to get the fame from solving them, despite having no evidence. The biggest difference is probably that Jameson only hates Spider-Man, whereas Jones hates a broad, diverse selection of groups and individuals.
I enjoyed the Jonah bits, but I'm honestly also glad they have an option to turn him off so people don't have to listen to an annoyingly good parody of Alex Jones if they don't want to.
I have a weird sense of humor.
Jonah would punch out Alex Jones as soon as the words “Sandy Hook” left his mouth.
Jonah’s an asshole and a blowhard, but deep, deep down there’s a heart in there. Alex Jones is a monster on every basic human level. I understand the easy comparison, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, personally.
Could just be my problem. /shrug
J. Jonah Jameson is a fucking asshole and I wouldn't want to have even a five-minute conversation with him, but he seems like he's got principles.
At first the podcast makes him come off like a conspiracy assclown, but as the game progresses and the story moves forward he actually manages to say some reasonable and maybe even insightful things. He's still an asshole, he's just a correct asshole. God forbid someone contradict or outsmart him on his own show, but meaningful words come out of his mouth from time to time. He has conviction.
I read this in Jonah's voice and it was perfect.
People should not come away from spider-man and be all “I wanna be just like J Jonah!”