The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
Precise jumps are difficult and maintaining distance when you’re capable of higher acceleration would be pretty easy/exactly how things would work. Like exactly how physics works in the real world in addition to how it works in Star Wars naval physics
Tell that to Han Solo jumping into a planetary atmosphere in TFA. Or every other Star Destroyer jumping right next to a planet without crashing into it.
Han Solo's jump in TFA was, as I remembered, thought to be some combination of almost impossible and insane wasn't it?
I imagine insanely difficult.
Still, even in TLJ, we see Star Destroyers jumping above the planet close enough to be seen from the ground.
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The right choice is not the right choice only in hindsight.
Additionally it would have worked out in the end because that is how the force works, by saving what we love and not killing what we hate
woah slow down there trudeau. The story does not magically become internally consistent just because that's what makes the writers' hamfisted moral work at the end.
Poe made the right decision at the time and gave a perfectly valid reason for it, not only in hindsight.
No. That is how the force works. In every movie. The Jedi are ineffectual because they have locked themselves out of emotion. Everything turns to shit for the sith because they act out of hate and fear. Luke succeeds because he acts out of positive emotional reasoning.
Finn succeeds in saving Rey on the starkiller base because he wants to save her and not because he wants to destroy the base. Rey fails in turning Kylo because she doesn’t care about him but is rather acting out of rote.
That doesn’t matter with regards to this action though because the dice rolling snake eyes does not make betting on it a good idea. It was always the wrong bet
do you have a single fact to back that up? Rey failed to turn Kylo because he actually believes in something else, Luke won the battle with his anger before having his epiphany, there are plenty of alternative explanations for these sequences of events that aren't a painfully deterministic fairy tale framework. Explanations that allow characters agency beyond the purity of their intentions.
Also, again, Holdo is dressed just like previous women in command in Star Wars.
I already proved to you that she is not with specific examples. Leia wore a uniform as a General in ESB and ROTJ. Mon Mothma was a politician who is never, EVER described as a military officer, and is addressed only as Senator in Rogue One. Star Wars has never had a female admiral onscreen, and they decided for some reason she would dress like a senator and not like an actual star wars admiral. She is fucking STANDING NEXT TO several women dressed like normal officers. Why do you believe Holdo is the normal one here in this context?
No, you didn't dude. I literally pointed out Mon Mothma giving a briefing for the first or second most important strike in the rebellion's history in a similarish dress. Leia is wandering around the whole movie in no sort of uniform as well. They are referencing things that happened in previous Star Wars movies.
Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.
She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.
Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.
Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.
Here is the god damn scene in the Endor briefing where you can SEE Leia is wearing a rank insignia identical to General Madine's and Lando's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWXVUJfSvDs
square, two circles, square. General's tab. She is not "wandering around" out of uniform. And why do you keep insisting Mon Mothma is a general and not a politician? Holdo is. an. admiral. We. know. how. admirals. dress. Her decision to dress like Mon Mothma and not like an Admiral says something about her character.
No, that is absolutely all that is required. It's a story about Poe and Holdo. Whatever everyone else is doing doesn't matter except in that they are either one of the few that side with Poe or they are ones Poe's people were holding at gunpoint. So clearly none of them felt the need to act or had the gumption to act on their own.
Holdo is in charge. Poe is the kind of person who thinks he should have a say in everything and who thinks he's right. This brings them into conflict. That's your story.
Just because a story is simple doesn't mean it's good. Or smartly written. The inaction of these characters raises questions of its own unless you're somehow satisfied with the idea that the spear-carriers simply don't have agency. I am not satisfied in the least by that kind of solipsism.
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
The right choice is not the right choice only in hindsight.
Additionally it would have worked out in the end because that is how the force works, by saving what we love and not killing what we hate
woah slow down there trudeau. The story does not magically become internally consistent just because that's what makes the writers' hamfisted moral work at the end.
Poe made the right decision at the time and gave a perfectly valid reason for it, not only in hindsight.
No. That is how the force works. In every movie. The Jedi are ineffectual because they have locked themselves out of emotion. Everything turns to shit for the sith because they act out of hate and fear. Luke succeeds because he acts out of positive emotional reasoning.
Finn succeeds in saving Rey on the starkiller base because he wants to save her and not because he wants to destroy the base. Rey fails in turning Kylo because she doesn’t care about him but is rather acting out of rote.
That doesn’t matter with regards to this action though because the dice rolling snake eyes does not make betting on it a good idea. It was always the wrong bet
do you have a single fact to back that up? Rey failed to turn Kylo because he actually believes in something else, Luke won the battle with his anger before having his epiphany, there are plenty of alternative explanations for these sequences of events that aren't a painfully deterministic fairy tale framework. Explanations that allow characters agency beyond the purity of their intentions.
Besides like.. everything that happens in all of the movies? Reach out with your feelings Luke; not reach out with your ideology.
Luke won the battle with his anger but he did not win the fight with it... it’s kinda like.. the centerpiece of the 3 films that he does not win with his anger. Had he continued he would have lost. He realizes this immediately after cutting off Vader’s hand.
“Winning” in this context does not mean “the thing I want to have happen happens” but rather having good things happen in net. That doesn’t mean characters don’t have agency it just means that the force has agency as well... and it clearly does in all of the films.
And like... it’s Star Wars of course it has a fairy tale framework...
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
I like it too, but there’s a difference between hubris and cartoonishly incompetent.
In the very beginning, even though the Raddus is clearly visible from the dreadnough, seen from underneath implying it is within its field of view of the cannons, opts to try to shoot the planet first. Planets can’t just jump to light speed. Kill the Raddus, blow up base later at convenience.
The other Star Destroyers that came in with the dreadnought just sat there. No attempt at orbital bombardment or attempting to cut the Raddus from fleeing like in ROTJ.
Not pre-launching fighters the moment you come out of hyperspace, let alone when seeing an enemy fighter in range.
Falling for “can you hear me now/yo momma” jokes as a distraction while gloating about how you will kill everyone instead of just killing them. Mercy is a quick death and blah blah blah.
Only having a single ship use the tracker at once, despite that all of them can supposedly do it.
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
Not scanning for obviously eventual escape craft, allowing Finn and Rose to leave and return at convenience. The Empire at least scanned for escape pods/craft.
Not running constant decloaking scans despite capability.
Not jumping a couple Star Destroyers ahead to cut the Raddus off.
Not noticing the Millennium Falcon jump in, launch an escape pod, then jump out. It’s not like a ship that small can have a cloaking device :P
Not having guards in tracker room, despite them having nothing else to do and the tracker being the key to your entire plan.
Losing track of BB-8, despite a very obvious camera pan of Nazi BB unit looking at him during the capture.
Snoke falling for an “exact words” trick. (This is fine, Snoke was overconfident, even though I thought it was so obviously telegraphed, that it would be just another subversion. I guess it was a double subversion. Still fine though, hubris works here.)
Stupid laser ax execution instead of just shooting them. How is beheading more painful than a blaster anyhow?
Plasma putting away her blaster rifle to have melee duel with Finn, despite having the rifle and a side pistol too.
Sending all fighters after the Millennium Falcon on the planet instead of destroying the remaining speeders. (This one is justified due to Kylo having a personal connection to it).
The gorilla walkers stop firing despite Finn nearly about to hit the battering ram.
Allowing Finn to drag back Rose, despite wrecking right at the foot of the walkers, over a mile from the base with no cover.
A comedy of errors indeed. Unintentional comedy though.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
...
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
...
This one was really bad for me, as in it had me pull a WTF while I was in the theater. Kylo and his cohorts were freaking wreaking everything. Everything. Main hanger (or at least the fighter hanger) was gone, the bridge was gone, five more minutes and the Resistance is nothing more than space dust; and yet they pull the fighters back and say it's because they 'can't cover them'. Cover them from what, with what, heck, why what? They just showed the Resistance losing a hanger bay and they don't show any further fighters launching. The also don't show the First Order ships firing any weapons at anything. So I saw it as a clunky 'we need to stop doing this or the movie is over' move.
It was the plot driving the action. They needed Poe on the ship, so they blew up the hanger; but they couldn't have Kylo blow up everything, so they just said 'stop that'. At least have Snoke join the call and monologue about how he's going to make them suffer or try and draw out their allies or something.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
How was Holdo's plan ever going to work, anyway? The transports slip to the planet surface, the fleet blows the Raddus out of space, and Kylo still senses his mom alive. Or, if Ben fails to notice through the force, there is Snoke, who's kinda hard to miss, seeing as how he's flying around in the biggest ship imaginable. Her whole plan was the equivalent of jumping out of your car into a cornfield to avoid 2 police helicopters. But for the sake of argument, let's say Ben and Snoke sense nothing because...whatever. There are still about 6 million assholes on all the assorted Star Destroyers. Even if we give each of them just a 1% just to think, huh, maybe they left the ship and landed on that planet, Holdo's jig is up 60 thousand times.
It's just...ugh, this is the plan the movie wanted me to believe was the *good* one. If only Poe hadn't gotten in the way, *this* would have gone off without a hitch.
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
...
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
...
This one was really bad for me, as in it had me pull a WTF while I was in the theater. Kylo and his cohorts were freaking wreaking everything. Everything. Main hanger (or at least the fighter hanger) was gone, the bridge was gone, five more minutes and the Resistance is nothing more than space dust; and yet they pull the fighters back and say it's because they 'can't cover them'. Cover them from what, with what, heck, why what? They just showed the Resistance losing a hanger bay and they don't show any further fighters launching. The also don't show the First Order ships firing any weapons at anything. So I saw it as a clunky 'we need to stop doing this or the movie is over' move.
It was the plot driving the action. They needed Poe on the ship, so they blew up the hanger; but they couldn't have Kylo blow up everything, so they just said 'stop that'. At least have Snoke join the call and monologue about how he's going to make them suffer or try and draw out their allies or something.
The notion that the fundamental flaw of the First Order is its tendency towards being blindsided/tunnel vision is theatrically interesting, but it does make you wonder how if it's this bad, how did they ascend to such enormous heights in the first place?
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
...
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
...
This one was really bad for me, as in it had me pull a WTF while I was in the theater. Kylo and his cohorts were freaking wreaking everything. Everything. Main hanger (or at least the fighter hanger) was gone, the bridge was gone, five more minutes and the Resistance is nothing more than space dust; and yet they pull the fighters back and say it's because they 'can't cover them'. Cover them from what, with what, heck, why what? They just showed the Resistance losing a hanger bay and they don't show any further fighters launching. The also don't show the First Order ships firing any weapons at anything. So I saw it as a clunky 'we need to stop doing this or the movie is over' move.
It was the plot driving the action. They needed Poe on the ship, so they blew up the hanger; but they couldn't have Kylo blow up everything, so they just said 'stop that'. At least have Snoke join the call and monologue about how he's going to make them suffer or try and draw out their allies or something.
The notion that the fundamental flaw of the First Order is its tendency towards being blindsided/tunnel vision is theatrically interesting, but it does make you wonder how if it's this bad, how did they ascend to such enormous heights in the first place?
If we knew the answer to this, do you think the current state of the American political landscape would exist?
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
...
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
...
This one was really bad for me, as in it had me pull a WTF while I was in the theater. Kylo and his cohorts were freaking wreaking everything. Everything. Main hanger (or at least the fighter hanger) was gone, the bridge was gone, five more minutes and the Resistance is nothing more than space dust; and yet they pull the fighters back and say it's because they 'can't cover them'. Cover them from what, with what, heck, why what? They just showed the Resistance losing a hanger bay and they don't show any further fighters launching. The also don't show the First Order ships firing any weapons at anything. So I saw it as a clunky 'we need to stop doing this or the movie is over' move.
It was the plot driving the action. They needed Poe on the ship, so they blew up the hanger; but they couldn't have Kylo blow up everything, so they just said 'stop that'. At least have Snoke join the call and monologue about how he's going to make them suffer or try and draw out their allies or something.
The notion that the fundamental flaw of the First Order is its tendency towards being blindsided/tunnel vision is theatrically interesting, but it does make you wonder how if it's this bad, how did they ascend to such enormous heights in the first place?
If we knew the answer to this, do you think the current state of the American political landscape would exist?
I mean, I would say, "Because they're not as hilariously incompetent/easy to blindside. They're certainly capable of making mistakes, and they're occasionally their own worse enemy," but the White House isn't destroyed very often, and nor are governments in general. But that's just my quick take.
I actually like that the First Order kept missing details because they were focused on one thing, it felt like developing an organic weakness in their strategic abilities, namely a tendency to tunnel vision. Focus on the big ship and miss the shuttles until someone points it out. Now they focus on the shuttles and ignore the cruiser until it's too late. It makes how Luke confronts them feel plausible.
...
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
...
This one was really bad for me, as in it had me pull a WTF while I was in the theater. Kylo and his cohorts were freaking wreaking everything. Everything. Main hanger (or at least the fighter hanger) was gone, the bridge was gone, five more minutes and the Resistance is nothing more than space dust; and yet they pull the fighters back and say it's because they 'can't cover them'. Cover them from what, with what, heck, why what? They just showed the Resistance losing a hanger bay and they don't show any further fighters launching. The also don't show the First Order ships firing any weapons at anything. So I saw it as a clunky 'we need to stop doing this or the movie is over' move.
It was the plot driving the action. They needed Poe on the ship, so they blew up the hanger; but they couldn't have Kylo blow up everything, so they just said 'stop that'. At least have Snoke join the call and monologue about how he's going to make them suffer or try and draw out their allies or something.
The notion that the fundamental flaw of the First Order is its tendency towards being blindsided/tunnel vision is theatrically interesting, but it does make you wonder how if it's this bad, how did they ascend to such enormous heights in the first place?
If we knew the answer to this, do you think the current state of the American political landscape would exist?
I mean, I would say, "Because they're not as hilariously incompetent/easy to blindside. They're certainly capable of making mistakes, and they're occasionally their own worse enemy," but the White House isn't destroyed very often, and nor are governments in general. But that's just my quick take.
To shift from real-world back to Star Wars, it seems likely that when the Emperor was taken out, it's not like all the commanders in the Imperial Navy immediately decided to hang up their hats. Enough of them gathered together to hang out in a little sector for a while and they were ignored because the Republic felt like the cost to clean up the last pockets wasn't worth it, they'd die out on their own eventually. But then Snoke came along and consolidated them together and only Leia saw it as a threat worth directly opposing.
How was Holdo's plan ever going to work, anyway? The transports slip to the planet surface, the fleet blows the Raddus out of space, and Kylo still senses his mom alive. Or, if Ben fails to notice through the force, there is Snoke, who's kinda hard to miss, seeing as how he's flying around in the biggest ship imaginable. Her whole plan was the equivalent of jumping out of your car into a cornfield to avoid 2 police helicopters. But for the sake of argument, let's say Ben and Snoke sense nothing because...whatever. There are still about 6 million assholes on all the assorted Star Destroyers. Even if we give each of them just a 1% just to think, huh, maybe they left the ship and landed on that planet, Holdo's jig is up 60 thousand times.
It's just...ugh, this is the plan the movie wanted me to believe was the *good* one. If only Poe hadn't gotten in the way, *this* would have gone off without a hitch.
It was shown that the First Order are ridiculously devoted to blindly following the chain of command.
The captain of the dreadnought knew he needed his fighter screen up as soon as they dropped out of hyperspace, because his ship is a juicy target for small, fast moving attackers and it doesn't have sufficient anti fighter capability to defend itself without a fighter screen. And once his AA is stripped by said fast mover(s), he's an even juicier target for a wing of slow moving bombers.
But he didn't launch his TIEs until directly ordered to do so.
If the captain of a ship isn't willing to step out of line to defend his life and his massively armed and expensive warship (by following what should be logical doctrine for an engagement of this kind) until he's given permission, what's the likelihood that some random storm trooper is going to speak up with a "Hey, that planet that was 5, 10 minutes away... any chance that it's habitable and they may have made their way to it using cloaked ships? Maybe we should go check that out, huh?".
"They'd evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."
I really like this. This is really good
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
edited September 2018
Thinking about it, the movie is an interesting juxtaposition of "follow the chain of command" (Rebels) and "the chain of command is stupid" (First Order).
I'm not really going anywhere with this, but the discussion has brought that element into stark relief and I hadn't noticed it before (I'd only focused on the Rebel-side lesson of following the chain of command).
Thinking about it, the movie is an interesting juxtaposition of "follow the chain of command" (Rebels) and "the chain of command is stupid" (First Order).
I'm not really going anywhere with this, but the discussion has brought that element into stark relief and I hadn't noticed it before (I'd only focused on the Rebel-side lesson of following the chain of command).
Evil will always win because good is dumb!
Also, evil has a bigger budget.
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I did not mind Holdo's outfit at all for her rank. Throughout the originals and reinforced by Rogue One, the Rebel Alliance allows many styles of uniform from the various component allies and readily conscripts civilians into service. It also does seem to have its own rank structure which is similar to but not quite the same as real world counterparts. Maybe Holdo is dressed in the military standard of her home planet, or maybe she was conscripted into service directly after some prior heroics and does not feel like wearing the uniform. I dunno, it never bothered me.
And here's the thing with the various plans of the cast: None of them worked as intended the story is mostly about why. Hux's chase of the capitol ships is ruined by a suicide lightspeed sacrifice (Hux is consistently baffled when resistance chooses the last ditch effort instead of giving up), Holdo and Leia's longshot of a cloaked evacuation is ruined by Poe thinking he can create a better plan (at best their plan just kept a few important Resistance members alive with little to no resources), Poe's plan is ruined because he is assuming everyone will sacrifice themselves to execute the plan (obviously codebreaker not this devoted).
Same goes for the force users (except Yoda). Kylo fails to turn Rey, Rey fails to turn Luke, Luke fails to end the Jedi. At least with the force users we can see their failures lead to chances at personal victories. Kylo stopped trying to convert Rey and instead seized an opportunity to strike Snoke down. Rey didn't succeed directly, but her presence helped Kylo remove Snoke and her taking the Jedi teachings allowed Yoda to prompt Luke into action one last time.
Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
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Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
Palpatine doesn't exist in ANH. There is an Emperor, who is referred to a couple times in vague terms, but everything about how the first Death Star was run was Tarkin's call.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
Precise jumps are difficult and maintaining distance when you’re capable of higher acceleration would be pretty easy/exactly how things would work. Like exactly how physics works in the real world in addition to how it works in Star Wars naval physics
Tell that to Han Solo jumping into a planetary atmosphere in TFA. Or every other Star Destroyer jumping right next to a planet without crashing into it.
Han Solo's jump in TFA was, as I remembered, thought to be some combination of almost impossible and insane wasn't it?
I imagine insanely difficult.
Still, even in TLJ, we see Star Destroyers jumping above the planet close enough to be seen from the ground.
Visible from low planetary orbit, given some wiggle room for a good shot, isn't unreasonable. The ISS is 108m on its largest dimension and you can see it reflecting light under the right circumstances. An Imperial Star Destroyer is just under a mile long.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
Precise jumps are difficult and maintaining distance when you’re capable of higher acceleration would be pretty easy/exactly how things would work. Like exactly how physics works in the real world in addition to how it works in Star Wars naval physics
Tell that to Han Solo jumping into a planetary atmosphere in TFA. Or every other Star Destroyer jumping right next to a planet without crashing into it.
Han Solo's jump in TFA was, as I remembered, thought to be some combination of almost impossible and insane wasn't it?
I imagine insanely difficult.
Still, even in TLJ, we see Star Destroyers jumping above the planet close enough to be seen from the ground.
Visible from low planetary orbit, given some wiggle room for a good shot, isn't unreasonable. The ISS is 108m on its largest dimension and you can see it reflecting light under the right circumstances. An Imperial Star Destroyer is just under a mile long.
I'd have to mock it up to be sure, but I'm fairly certain the SDs were still way too visible for how far out they were showed to be later.
Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
Palpatine doesn't exist in ANH. There is an Emperor, who is referred to a couple times in vague terms, but everything about how the first Death Star was run was Tarkin's call.
Yeah, it's the same Guvna' Tarkin who gently jerks back Darth Vader's chain when he starts to get a little too choke happy. A lot of that is another strong Peter Cushing performance, but I can't help but think of it as an authoritative, brutal and in fact fearless military leader and dictator who doesn't mind polite disagreement or dissent (he shows no anger when his staff officers refute him in the conference, unlike Vader) but doesn't suffer fools (like Vader)--with no shortage of arrogance derived from supreme confidence in the military machine he controls. And he happens to be willing to expose himself to the same risks as the rest of the officers under his command for that reason (hence his refusal to evacuate). It could just be me, but ratio of screen time to clarity of character, Tarkin is pretty high on the list of any performance in those films.
In any case, the point was "given that they can clearly jump to within 100 miles of a planet with no problems, why couldn't they jump 100 miles ahead of the rebel fleet without fear"
In any case, the point was "given that they can clearly jump to within 100 miles of a planet with no problems, why couldn't they jump 100 miles ahead of the rebel fleet without fear"
They know where a planet will be precisely if the system is charted.
In any case, the point was "given that they can clearly jump to within 100 miles of a planet with no problems, why couldn't they jump 100 miles ahead of the rebel fleet without fear"
They know where a planet will be precisely if the system is charted.
SW films have never used micro jumps, either. The Death Star flew around Yavin, the rebel fleet didn't GTFO from the DS2 while staying in radio range to monitor the attack, etc. It's more noticeable in TLJ, definitely.
In any case, the point was "given that they can clearly jump to within 100 miles of a planet with no problems, why couldn't they jump 100 miles ahead of the rebel fleet without fear"
They know where a planet will be precisely if the system is charted.
SW films have never used micro jumps, either. The Death Star flew around Yavin, the rebel fleet didn't GTFO from the DS2 while staying in radio range to monitor the attack, etc. It's more noticeable in TLJ, definitely.
Yeah my guess is that by the time you could turn off the hyperdrive you're already half a system away. Its more akin to just going silly-fast than some kind of worm hole thing.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
Precise jumps are difficult and maintaining distance when you’re capable of higher acceleration would be pretty easy/exactly how things would work. Like exactly how physics works in the real world in addition to how it works in Star Wars naval physics
Tell that to Han Solo jumping into a planetary atmosphere in TFA. Or every other Star Destroyer jumping right next to a planet without crashing into it.
Han Solo's jump in TFA was, as I remembered, thought to be some combination of almost impossible and insane wasn't it?
I imagine insanely difficult.
Still, even in TLJ, we see Star Destroyers jumping above the planet close enough to be seen from the ground.
Visible from low planetary orbit, given some wiggle room for a good shot, isn't unreasonable. The ISS is 108m on its largest dimension and you can see it reflecting light under the right circumstances. An Imperial Star Destroyer is just under a mile long.
I'd have to mock it up to be sure, but I'm fairly certain the SDs were still way too visible for how far out they were showed to be later.
This is pretty common in the series. For instance if the DSII were as close to the planet as it looks in the space wide shots it should be about 10 times larger in shots on the ground.
Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
Palpatine doesn't exist in ANH. There is an Emperor, who is referred to a couple times in vague terms, but everything about how the first Death Star was run was Tarkin's call.
Oh, I thought you meant ROTJ.
That said, it’s still discussed in ANH by the Rebels on Yavin. The Empire never considered small ships a threat to the station, “else they would have had a tighter defense.”
Once Vader realizes the fighters are too small, he sends out his own fighters.
It’s both explained and reacted to in the plot by the characters, not because the movie says so, the characters do.
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Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
Palpatine doesn't exist in ANH. There is an Emperor, who is referred to a couple times in vague terms, but everything about how the first Death Star was run was Tarkin's call.
Oh, I thought you meant ROTJ.
That said, it’s still discussed in ANH by the Rebels on Yavin. The Empire never considered small ships a threat to the station, “else they would have had a tighter defense.”
Once Vader realizes the fighters are too small, he sends out his own fighters.
It’s both explained and reacted to in the plot by the characters, not because the movie says so, the characters do.
"The first Death Star" means ANH, not ROTJ.
Vader does his thing because he's not entirely beholden to Tarkin.
In any case, the point was "given that they can clearly jump to within 100 miles of a planet with no problems, why couldn't they jump 100 miles ahead of the rebel fleet without fear"
They know where a planet will be precisely if the system is charted.
SW films have never used micro jumps, either. The Death Star flew around Yavin, the rebel fleet didn't GTFO from the DS2 while staying in radio range to monitor the attack, etc. It's more noticeable in TLJ, definitely.
True, but unless fuel was an issue for the First Order, which it could have been, but we don’t really know. Just jump the ships 100 light years or any arbitrary distance. Since communication in Star Wars is instant, just tell them the Raddus’ vector, then jump ahead of that vector by x distance and wait for the Raddus to come to them.
It doesn’t have to be precise, just precise enough to gain distance and time to get ahead and position themselves. It’s not like the Star Destroyers were actually doing anything to prevent that. They were kinda just there.
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Arguing those points is like arguing why the first Death Star didn't immediately launch its entire fighter complement to obliterate the 24 X and Y-wings closing on their invincible station.
Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
Palpatine doesn't exist in ANH. There is an Emperor, who is referred to a couple times in vague terms, but everything about how the first Death Star was run was Tarkin's call.
Oh, I thought you meant ROTJ.
That said, it’s still discussed in ANH by the Rebels on Yavin. The Empire never considered small ships a threat to the station, “else they would have had a tighter defense.”
Once Vader realizes the fighters are too small, he sends out his own fighters.
It’s both explained and reacted to in the plot by the characters, not because the movie says so, the characters do.
"The first Death Star" means ANH, not ROTJ.
Yes, thank you. I understand that now, no need to further emphasize it.
Vader does his thing because he's not entirely beholden to Tarkin.
Agreed. That’s why it works, the characters have agency and react accordingly to the internal logic of their traits and the setting.
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The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
The "cruising out of range" bit doesn't make any sense either, even within the confines of Star Wars. For one thing, the fleet holding back the hundreds of TIE ships that would have obliterated the fleet in a single pass (and the First Order, suddenly, cares about losing fighters). For another, the entire First Order is somehow located behind the Resistance fleet, and nobody just jumps out in front of them. For another, how is it that all of the ships involved have the same top speed limited only by, for the very very first time in Star Wars cinema, how much fuel they carry?
The Emperor was evil, but he wasn't plain stupid. That whole chase was like something cooked up by Dr. Evil because just blowing them up would make too much sense.
Precise jumps are difficult and maintaining distance when you’re capable of higher acceleration would be pretty easy/exactly how things would work. Like exactly how physics works in the real world in addition to how it works in Star Wars naval physics
Tell that to Han Solo jumping into a planetary atmosphere in TFA. Or every other Star Destroyer jumping right next to a planet without crashing into it.
Han Solo's jump in TFA was, as I remembered, thought to be some combination of almost impossible and insane wasn't it?
I imagine insanely difficult.
Still, even in TLJ, we see Star Destroyers jumping above the planet close enough to be seen from the ground.
Visible from low planetary orbit, given some wiggle room for a good shot, isn't unreasonable. The ISS is 108m on its largest dimension and you can see it reflecting light under the right circumstances. An Imperial Star Destroyer is just under a mile long.
I'd have to mock it up to be sure, but I'm fairly certain the SDs were still way too visible for how far out they were showed to be later.
This is pretty common in the series. For instance if the DSII were as close to the planet as it looks in the space wide shots it should be about 10 times larger in shots on the ground.
Quoting myself because I had done some fun mathing last night.
If the DSII were as large as the folks at Endor holocaust say it is and as close to the planet as they say it is then it would have taken up 22.7 degrees of vision from the ground (for reference the moon takes up half a degree). It would have been so big that if you were looking at the horizon straight it would take up 1/3 of the sky by verticality.
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I imagine insanely difficult.
Still, even in TLJ, we see Star Destroyers jumping above the planet close enough to be seen from the ground.
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Yes, I did:
Here is the god damn scene in the Endor briefing where you can SEE Leia is wearing a rank insignia identical to General Madine's and Lando's:
square, two circles, square. General's tab. She is not "wandering around" out of uniform. And why do you keep insisting Mon Mothma is a general and not a politician? Holdo is. an. admiral. We. know. how. admirals. dress. Her decision to dress like Mon Mothma and not like an Admiral says something about her character.
Just because a story is simple doesn't mean it's good. Or smartly written. The inaction of these characters raises questions of its own unless you're somehow satisfied with the idea that the spear-carriers simply don't have agency. I am not satisfied in the least by that kind of solipsism.
Besides like.. everything that happens in all of the movies? Reach out with your feelings Luke; not reach out with your ideology.
Luke won the battle with his anger but he did not win the fight with it... it’s kinda like.. the centerpiece of the 3 films that he does not win with his anger. Had he continued he would have lost. He realizes this immediately after cutting off Vader’s hand.
“Winning” in this context does not mean “the thing I want to have happen happens” but rather having good things happen in net. That doesn’t mean characters don’t have agency it just means that the force has agency as well... and it clearly does in all of the films.
And like... it’s Star Wars of course it has a fairy tale framework...
I like it too, but there’s a difference between hubris and cartoonishly incompetent.
In the very beginning, even though the Raddus is clearly visible from the dreadnough, seen from underneath implying it is within its field of view of the cannons, opts to try to shoot the planet first. Planets can’t just jump to light speed. Kill the Raddus, blow up base later at convenience.
The other Star Destroyers that came in with the dreadnought just sat there. No attempt at orbital bombardment or attempting to cut the Raddus from fleeing like in ROTJ.
Not pre-launching fighters the moment you come out of hyperspace, let alone when seeing an enemy fighter in range.
Falling for “can you hear me now/yo momma” jokes as a distraction while gloating about how you will kill everyone instead of just killing them. Mercy is a quick death and blah blah blah.
Only having a single ship use the tracker at once, despite that all of them can supposedly do it.
Calling Kylo and the other fighters back despite just doing massive damage to Raddus bridge and hanger bay. Kylo sure, the others are cannon fodder. Maybe Huxley was worried about going over budget in this attack or something.
Not scanning for obviously eventual escape craft, allowing Finn and Rose to leave and return at convenience. The Empire at least scanned for escape pods/craft.
Not running constant decloaking scans despite capability.
Not jumping a couple Star Destroyers ahead to cut the Raddus off.
Not noticing the Millennium Falcon jump in, launch an escape pod, then jump out. It’s not like a ship that small can have a cloaking device :P
Not having guards in tracker room, despite them having nothing else to do and the tracker being the key to your entire plan.
Losing track of BB-8, despite a very obvious camera pan of Nazi BB unit looking at him during the capture.
Snoke falling for an “exact words” trick. (This is fine, Snoke was overconfident, even though I thought it was so obviously telegraphed, that it would be just another subversion. I guess it was a double subversion. Still fine though, hubris works here.)
Stupid laser ax execution instead of just shooting them. How is beheading more painful than a blaster anyhow?
Plasma putting away her blaster rifle to have melee duel with Finn, despite having the rifle and a side pistol too.
Sending all fighters after the Millennium Falcon on the planet instead of destroying the remaining speeders. (This one is justified due to Kylo having a personal connection to it).
The gorilla walkers stop firing despite Finn nearly about to hit the battering ram.
Allowing Finn to drag back Rose, despite wrecking right at the foot of the walkers, over a mile from the base with no cover.
A comedy of errors indeed. Unintentional comedy though.
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This one was really bad for me, as in it had me pull a WTF while I was in the theater. Kylo and his cohorts were freaking wreaking everything. Everything. Main hanger (or at least the fighter hanger) was gone, the bridge was gone, five more minutes and the Resistance is nothing more than space dust; and yet they pull the fighters back and say it's because they 'can't cover them'. Cover them from what, with what, heck, why what? They just showed the Resistance losing a hanger bay and they don't show any further fighters launching. The also don't show the First Order ships firing any weapons at anything. So I saw it as a clunky 'we need to stop doing this or the movie is over' move.
It was the plot driving the action. They needed Poe on the ship, so they blew up the hanger; but they couldn't have Kylo blow up everything, so they just said 'stop that'. At least have Snoke join the call and monologue about how he's going to make them suffer or try and draw out their allies or something.
It's just...ugh, this is the plan the movie wanted me to believe was the *good* one. If only Poe hadn't gotten in the way, *this* would have gone off without a hitch.
The notion that the fundamental flaw of the First Order is its tendency towards being blindsided/tunnel vision is theatrically interesting, but it does make you wonder how if it's this bad, how did they ascend to such enormous heights in the first place?
If we knew the answer to this, do you think the current state of the American political landscape would exist?
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I mean, I would say, "Because they're not as hilariously incompetent/easy to blindside. They're certainly capable of making mistakes, and they're occasionally their own worse enemy," but the White House isn't destroyed very often, and nor are governments in general. But that's just my quick take.
To shift from real-world back to Star Wars, it seems likely that when the Emperor was taken out, it's not like all the commanders in the Imperial Navy immediately decided to hang up their hats. Enough of them gathered together to hang out in a little sector for a while and they were ignored because the Republic felt like the cost to clean up the last pockets wasn't worth it, they'd die out on their own eventually. But then Snoke came along and consolidated them together and only Leia saw it as a threat worth directly opposing.
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It was shown that the First Order are ridiculously devoted to blindly following the chain of command.
The captain of the dreadnought knew he needed his fighter screen up as soon as they dropped out of hyperspace, because his ship is a juicy target for small, fast moving attackers and it doesn't have sufficient anti fighter capability to defend itself without a fighter screen. And once his AA is stripped by said fast mover(s), he's an even juicier target for a wing of slow moving bombers.
But he didn't launch his TIEs until directly ordered to do so.
If the captain of a ship isn't willing to step out of line to defend his life and his massively armed and expensive warship (by following what should be logical doctrine for an engagement of this kind) until he's given permission, what's the likelihood that some random storm trooper is going to speak up with a "Hey, that planet that was 5, 10 minutes away... any chance that it's habitable and they may have made their way to it using cloaked ships? Maybe we should go check that out, huh?".
I really like this. This is really good
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I'm not really going anywhere with this, but the discussion has brought that element into stark relief and I hadn't noticed it before (I'd only focused on the Rebel-side lesson of following the chain of command).
Evil will always win because good is dumb!
Also, evil has a bigger budget.
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And here's the thing with the various plans of the cast: None of them worked as intended the story is mostly about why. Hux's chase of the capitol ships is ruined by a suicide lightspeed sacrifice (Hux is consistently baffled when resistance chooses the last ditch effort instead of giving up), Holdo and Leia's longshot of a cloaked evacuation is ruined by Poe thinking he can create a better plan (at best their plan just kept a few important Resistance members alive with little to no resources), Poe's plan is ruined because he is assuming everyone will sacrifice themselves to execute the plan (obviously codebreaker not this devoted).
Same goes for the force users (except Yoda). Kylo fails to turn Rey, Rey fails to turn Luke, Luke fails to end the Jedi. At least with the force users we can see their failures lead to chances at personal victories. Kylo stopped trying to convert Rey and instead seized an opportunity to strike Snoke down. Rey didn't succeed directly, but her presence helped Kylo remove Snoke and her taking the Jedi teachings allowed Yoda to prompt Luke into action one last time.
I don't think anyone had given Luke a direct order not to follow up on his crazy Jedi vision quest though.
Imagine if Yoda was like Holdo?
A Princess and a Wook-now are on a cloud-where?
Do my orders you must, or get off my bridge, there is no try to save everyone.
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Because the movie says so.
No, because Palpatine says so. This is his hubris, similar to what I said Snoke did in my list. It’s an in-movie justification for an obvious error. Palpatine wanted to use his toy to send a message just like he did in ANH.
An example for “the movie says so” is why the gorilla walkers were shooting at the speeders, then stopped when it was just Finn. It’s framed and everything. They are shooting, then Finn has a POV looking at the battering and all the walkers are not shooting. No reason, no explanation.
Rey gets off the Supremacy in Snoke’s ship. The characters discuss this. There is nothing wrong with how she gets off, it’s fine.
Finn drags Rose back all the way from the walkers. No visual or dialog as to how. This is not fine.
There is a difference between errors for character reasons or visuals/dialog showing or discussing, and obvious errors in scripting and editing.
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Palpatine doesn't exist in ANH. There is an Emperor, who is referred to a couple times in vague terms, but everything about how the first Death Star was run was Tarkin's call.
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Visible from low planetary orbit, given some wiggle room for a good shot, isn't unreasonable. The ISS is 108m on its largest dimension and you can see it reflecting light under the right circumstances. An Imperial Star Destroyer is just under a mile long.
I'd have to mock it up to be sure, but I'm fairly certain the SDs were still way too visible for how far out they were showed to be later.
Yeah, it's the same Guvna' Tarkin who gently jerks back Darth Vader's chain when he starts to get a little too choke happy. A lot of that is another strong Peter Cushing performance, but I can't help but think of it as an authoritative, brutal and in fact fearless military leader and dictator who doesn't mind polite disagreement or dissent (he shows no anger when his staff officers refute him in the conference, unlike Vader) but doesn't suffer fools (like Vader)--with no shortage of arrogance derived from supreme confidence in the military machine he controls. And he happens to be willing to expose himself to the same risks as the rest of the officers under his command for that reason (hence his refusal to evacuate). It could just be me, but ratio of screen time to clarity of character, Tarkin is pretty high on the list of any performance in those films.
They know where a planet will be precisely if the system is charted.
SW films have never used micro jumps, either. The Death Star flew around Yavin, the rebel fleet didn't GTFO from the DS2 while staying in radio range to monitor the attack, etc. It's more noticeable in TLJ, definitely.
Yeah my guess is that by the time you could turn off the hyperdrive you're already half a system away. Its more akin to just going silly-fast than some kind of worm hole thing.
Oh, I thought you meant ROTJ.
That said, it’s still discussed in ANH by the Rebels on Yavin. The Empire never considered small ships a threat to the station, “else they would have had a tighter defense.”
Once Vader realizes the fighters are too small, he sends out his own fighters.
It’s both explained and reacted to in the plot by the characters, not because the movie says so, the characters do.
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"The first Death Star" means ANH, not ROTJ.
Vader does his thing because he's not entirely beholden to Tarkin.
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True, but unless fuel was an issue for the First Order, which it could have been, but we don’t really know. Just jump the ships 100 light years or any arbitrary distance. Since communication in Star Wars is instant, just tell them the Raddus’ vector, then jump ahead of that vector by x distance and wait for the Raddus to come to them.
It doesn’t have to be precise, just precise enough to gain distance and time to get ahead and position themselves. It’s not like the Star Destroyers were actually doing anything to prevent that. They were kinda just there.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yes, thank you. I understand that now, no need to further emphasize it.
Agreed. That’s why it works, the characters have agency and react accordingly to the internal logic of their traits and the setting.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Quoting myself because I had done some fun mathing last night.
If the DSII were as large as the folks at Endor holocaust say it is and as close to the planet as they say it is then it would have taken up 22.7 degrees of vision from the ground (for reference the moon takes up half a degree). It would have been so big that if you were looking at the horizon straight it would take up 1/3 of the sky by verticality.