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Posts

  • DracilDracil Registered User regular
    It should be the same as the Xenoblade ones. Slightly better, but still inconsistent QC

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  • LBD_NytetraynLBD_Nytetrayn TorontoRegistered User regular
    I've heard that regular lag aside, there seems to be extra lag in the Switch version of SEGA Genesis Classics. D=

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    Brainleech
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    I've heard that regular lag aside, there seems to be extra lag in the Switch version of SEGA Genesis Classics. D=

    It's why I am waiting on it

    jmcdonald
  • NeveronNeveron SwedenRegistered User regular
    there's also a certain amount of unavoidable input lag in using modern screens, hence why the Melee community lives and breathes CRT

    Street Fighter 5 had, what, eight frames of unavoidable input lag or something along those lines?

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  • GMaster7GMaster7 Chili Dog Enthusiast Registered User regular
    I went ahead and bought that Sega collection and I can confirm there is input lag. Whether it is bad enough that it matters to me is yet to be seen. I played Columns for about 15 minutes with no issue but things didn't get real fast. I played Alex Kidd just to see the lag situation and controlling it definitely felt weird. And Shining Force was the weirdest of all, a turn based tile based RPG that felt hard to just walk around in. I think it was originally coded strangely for movement anyway, the original didn't feel laggy as such but it never felt quite perfect, like the game was waiting every few milliseconds to check your controller input so if you were lucky you took off instantly and if not it took an instant to get going. So I think now it's lag combined with the movement engine. Phantasy Star 2 felt fine by comparison.

    Also there's a strange sense that the music is constantly trying to catch up with itself? It's not something really obvious, just a vague feeling. Like maybe the lead instrument is 1 or 2 milliseconds behind or ahead of where it should be. It sounds better than I expected but just very slightly off in a way I can't articulate.

    However in spite of all this I mostly got it for the RPGs where lag issues won't impact the game much.

    Thank you very much for this follow-up. Just saw it.

    I simply don't understand how all of these classic game port/emulation issues are making their way into modern releases. It's lazy and disappointing. PlayStation Classic with its wrong-region ROMs (resulting in graphical/framerate/music issues) and shitty open source emulation; now this Sega Collection with input lag and other wonkiness. I feel like I have to wait for a patch and a subsequent report from a trustworthy source (like you, Sporky, in the trenches) that things are improved, because like you said, nobody noted this stuff in any of the reviews, and I'm not going to spend money to revisit games that are near and dear to my heart if they're going to be completely off.

    The omission of Monster Boy in Baby World or whatever it's called is forgivable, because the remakes are supposedly terrific and are gorgeous. It stinks, but it's not make-or-break for me. But input lag and distorted music/gamefeel are cardinal sins.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Well there is no remake of Wonder Boy in Monster World, and that was the one I had as a kid, and it was kind of the culmination of art/music/gameplay design of the series and was generally awesome.

    I mean look at this game!



    Anyway, I've been playing a lot of Shining Force and the lag doesn't get to me anymore (I don't really notice it), nor does the music sound strange. I also played a little of Sonic 1 and it was good enough. Sonic 1 is a game where I used to just play through one or two levels randomly all the time, so I got really good at level 1. I missed a couple cues by an instant but I think it would be playable enough if I actually wanted to sit down and get through the whole game.

    I guess what I'm saying is, when you have heard there is lag and emulation oddities you take a critical eye to it and you go "hmmmm hmmmm" and you notice issues, but if you power through it you notice it less and the games are still awesome.

    The features are good too. Fast forward is great for grinding in RPGs, rewind is nice too, and every game has 4 save states.

    There's a favorites feature so I've stacked the 15 games I loved as a kid all to the forefront for quick access!

    UncleSporky on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    but you have the input lag too?

    Alright, I should clarify.

    Six frames of input lag over the standard is pretty huge. I did some testing for once in training mode (I went in and hit jump, which comes out in like, 2 frames? I think?) and you can tell just how much lag there is by moving your thumb off the button as fast as possible and see how far it travels before you start the animation. Or you can just slam the joystick in one direction and see how long it takes you to move.

    Even with a GCN controller it takes enough time to do basic movement for my thumb to completely extend from whatever starting position I'm in. That's quite a bit of time.

    You add into that the extra input lag from online play, like say just 4/10ths of a second, and you get a full half second of difference between when you want to act and when you do act.

    You can get an idea for how that can affect you by just saying one before you try to dodge a move. You just don't have enough time to react to and then punish a lot of stuff with all this input lag.

    It's funny cause I never remembered Melee or Brawl having this much lag. Hell, a lot of the tricks in Melee were frame perfect, so :shrug:

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  • NeveronNeveron SwedenRegistered User regular
    but you have the input lag too?

    Alright, I should clarify.

    Six frames of input lag over the standard is pretty huge. I did some testing for once in training mode (I went in and hit jump, which comes out in like, 2 frames? I think?) and you can tell just how much lag there is by moving your thumb off the button as fast as possible and see how far it travels before you start the animation. Or you can just slam the joystick in one direction and see how long it takes you to move.

    Even with a GCN controller it takes enough time to do basic movement for my thumb to completely extend from whatever starting position I'm in. That's quite a bit of time.

    You add into that the extra input lag from online play, like say just 4/10ths of a second, and you get a full half second of difference between when you want to act and when you do act.

    You can get an idea for how that can affect you by just saying one before you try to dodge a move. You just don't have enough time to react to and then punish a lot of stuff with all this input lag.

    It's funny cause I never remembered Melee or Brawl having this much lag. Hell, a lot of the tricks in Melee were frame perfect, so :shrug:

    Melee ran on CRT (and thus had less inherent lag) and Brawl was just a really slow game in general, so.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I don't think brawl had that much lag when played on a GCN controller though? Nobody used a wiimote.

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  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    RE: the pro controller d-pad;
    I just put a bit of tape over the d-pad contacts, and it got a hell lot better.
    Not an excuse for the issue existing, but at least we can deal with the problema.

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  • Road BlockRoad Block Registered User regular
    I've picked up Gris and the game is so cerebral that it makes me start to nod off. That's not a critism. It's like a playable lullaby to me.

  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Road Block wrote: »
    I've picked up Gris and the game is so cerebral that it makes me start to nod off. That's not a critism. It's like a playable lullaby to me.

    The Rock Paper Shotgun review of Gris was that there's not much there beyond it being very pretty, but that it's so very pretty that that's probably okay.

    Jam Warrior on
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  • NamrokNamrok Registered User regular
    I think input lag is one of those things you might not notice, but your brain does. For me it just slowly builds frustration in the disastrous disconnect between input and results.

  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Road Block wrote: »
    I've picked up Gris and the game is so cerebral that it makes me start to nod off. That's not a critism. It's like a playable lullaby to me.

    The Rock Paper Shotgun review of Gris was that there's not much there beyond it being very pretty, but that it's so very pretty that that's probably okay.

    I mean, that worked for Journey.

    TDawg
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Dirty wrote: »
    Road Block wrote: »
    I've picked up Gris and the game is so cerebral that it makes me start to nod off. That's not a critism. It's like a playable lullaby to me.

    The Rock Paper Shotgun review of Gris was that there's not much there beyond it being very pretty, but that it's so very pretty that that's probably okay.

    I mean, that worked for Journey.

    And ABZU!

    I miss Pikmin. I hope the Pikmin games get put on Switch.

    I kept my Wii U for all the software on it. I'm dwelling on finding a Wii U secondary controller so I can play Pikmin 3 with my girlfriend.

    Cantido on
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  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Is there no way to quantifiably test input lag? Because if everyone is just.... counting? Well uh...

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Figgy wrote: »
    Is there no way to quantifiably test input lag? Because if everyone is just.... counting? Well uh...

    I mean, counting is how most measurements work.

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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    If everyone has the same input lag then I don't see the issue. It's not like anyone has an unfair advantage.

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    Counting is literally quantifying

    BahamutZERO.gif
  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.

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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.

    Most modern phones have slow-motion video capture. Hit record, press button, see how much time passes before action on screen happens. Do simple math. Done.

    kimeLegacy
  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Cruor wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.

    Most modern phones have slow-motion video capture. Hit record, press button, see how much time passes before action on screen happens. Do simple math. Done.

    Yes, see that's answering the question. As in, what tools can we use to measure? Still not a science, though.

    They don't have people just looking at the finish line counting your time in the Olympics.

    Or I mean... there's this:

    So when you guys are saying "I count 6 frames of lag with this controller" is that based on methods like this? Or just your eye?

    Figgy on
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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Figgy wrote: »
    Cruor wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.

    Most modern phones have slow-motion video capture. Hit record, press button, see how much time passes before action on screen happens. Do simple math. Done.

    Yes, see that's answering the question. As in, what tools can we use to measure? Still not a science, though.

    They don't have people just looking at the finish line counting your time in the Olympics.

    Or I mean... there's this:

    So when you guys are saying "I count 6 frames of lag with this controller" is that based on methods like this? Or just your eye?

    I am a literal scientist. Sometimes just counting is all the measure you need. It is literally science to use the available tools to count (quantify) things.

    Both methods (automated counting or manual counting) are perfectly fine. Both will introduce some error and variability.

    The semanatics of what are and aren't valid ways to count frames is silly. The main point stands - there's input lag, it's more than other smash games, it's less than some other fighting games, and most everyone has the same amount of input lag across all controller schemes so it's mostly moot.

    Cruor on
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  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Cruor wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Cruor wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.

    Most modern phones have slow-motion video capture. Hit record, press button, see how much time passes before action on screen happens. Do simple math. Done.

    Yes, see that's answering the question. As in, what tools can we use to measure? Still not a science, though.

    They don't have people just looking at the finish line counting your time in the Olympics.

    Or I mean... there's this:

    So when you guys are saying "I count 6 frames of lag with this controller" is that based on methods like this? Or just your eye?

    I am a literal scientist. Sometimes just counting is all the measure you need. It is literally science to use the available tools to count (quantify) things.

    Both methods (automated counting or manual counting) are perfectly fine. Both will introduce some error and variability.

    The semanatics of what are and aren't valid ways to count frames is silly. The main point stands - there's input lag, it's more than other smash games, it's less than some other fighting games, and most everyone has the same amount of input lag across all controller schemes so it's mostly moot.

    You're getting annoyed over a perceived stance. It was just a question how you guys come up with the numbers.

    I'm not doubting there is input lag.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I mean, you started with this:
    Figgy wrote: »
    Is there no way to quantifiably test input lag? Because if everyone is just.... counting? Well uh...
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.



    You kinda set the tone here :)

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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Figgy wrote: »
    Cruor wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Cruor wrote: »
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.

    Most modern phones have slow-motion video capture. Hit record, press button, see how much time passes before action on screen happens. Do simple math. Done.

    Yes, see that's answering the question. As in, what tools can we use to measure? Still not a science, though.

    They don't have people just looking at the finish line counting your time in the Olympics.

    Or I mean... there's this:

    So when you guys are saying "I count 6 frames of lag with this controller" is that based on methods like this? Or just your eye?

    I am a literal scientist. Sometimes just counting is all the measure you need. It is literally science to use the available tools to count (quantify) things.

    Both methods (automated counting or manual counting) are perfectly fine. Both will introduce some error and variability.

    The semanatics of what are and aren't valid ways to count frames is silly. The main point stands - there's input lag, it's more than other smash games, it's less than some other fighting games, and most everyone has the same amount of input lag across all controller schemes so it's mostly moot.

    You're getting annoyed over a perceived stance. It was just a question how you guys come up with the numbers.

    I'm not doubting there is input lag.

    My bad, I thought you were implying one form of quantification was better than the other. I've been staring at data all day and it's making me jumpy.

    A pretty reasonable assumption given
    kime wrote: »
    I mean, you started with this:
    Figgy wrote: »
    Is there no way to quantifiably test input lag? Because if everyone is just.... counting? Well uh...
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.



    You kinda set the tone here :)

    Cruor on
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    So, Katamari on the Switch, huh?

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    The methodology I have heard was used to get that data was using a slow motion camera with very high framerates per second to record someone pressing a button on various controller setups and the screen to see when the input starts to cause an action on the screen, repeating that experiment many times, then counting the frames of the high framerate recordings in video editing software and converting that to milliseconds.

    BahamutZERO on
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  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    I mean, you started with this:
    Figgy wrote: »
    Is there no way to quantifiably test input lag? Because if everyone is just.... counting? Well uh...
    Figgy wrote: »
    Counting is literally quantifying

    Counting 6 frames in a split second. You're just... 1 through 6.. there goes 6 frames guys!

    Come on.



    You kinda set the tone here :)

    Well when I ask "Hey how is everyone measuring input lag" after seeing decimal points in charts, I get "I mean, counting is how most measurements work."

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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    So, Katamari on the Switch, huh?

    I've never really played a Katamari game more than a few minutes at a friend's house more than a decade ago (...that feels really gross to type out). I'm pretty intrigued to check out Reroll. Is it an updated HD Port of the first, or have there been meaningful additions?

  • NamrokNamrok Registered User regular
    Cruor wrote: »
    So, Katamari on the Switch, huh?

    I've never really played a Katamari game more than a few minutes at a friend's house more than a decade ago (...that feels really gross to type out). I'm pretty intrigued to check out Reroll. Is it an updated HD Port of the first, or have there been meaningful additions?

    No meaningful additions besides it now being portable. It even still had the old PS2, three save slots, and when you save it asks if you want to quit. Then the prince just waves goodbye to you waiting for you to power off the PS2 Switch. It just shows its a rather low effort port. I suppose they at least went to the effort of changing the button icons from PS2 to Switch.

    Still, I'll take even a low effort port of Katamari on Switch. Even if my dream would have been a Katamari Damacy and We <3 Katamari combo.

  • BronzeKoopaBronzeKoopa Registered User regular
    Finally opened up NES Online to check out the added games. Wario's Woods is surprisingly fun, never played it before.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    One thing that no reviews mention that actually matters to me is that in the Switch version the cutscene voice acting is all in Japanese for some reason.

    Original PS2 version was so goofy and I really miss it:

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Gigaboots used a cheaper common method of filming a pencil hitting the button and screen behind it at 120 FPS, counting the frames in slow motion, and subtracting the TV's known input lag. They took 30 trials per controller for each game and averaged them. The challenge with this method would be deciding what point of elevation counts as a button "press," but I can't see that being 2 frames off (out of 60) or something.

  • ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    That's when you program a microcontroller to simulate a button press, or wire a contact to the controller board. :biggrin:

    Let's science this properly, people!

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    @GMaster7 the Genesis Collection just got another update like within the past 5 hours. There are no patch notes or anything and nobody talking about it online yet. It could be placebo effect stuff but it feels like there may be a little less lag than before. But I have no idea, for all I know the update fixed some online mutli netcode and didn't touch lag at all.

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Hold up, Fast Racing Neo got a port to the Switch and no one told me! Aaa!

    Oh brilliant
  • ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    My kids did something to my left joycon. Feels like the analog stick is pushing through molasses. Is this a common thing people have been talking about with the analog sticks?

    It's like the spring is stuck or something and doesn't pop back to center and is much harder to push around.

    Edit: and of course it's a tri-wing. You'd think I would own one of these by now. Is there a recommended set or size of these I should get?

    ArcSyn on
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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Hold up, Fast Racing Neo got a port to the Switch and no one told me! Aaa!

    We did, like a year ago.

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  • Mr FuzzbuttMr Fuzzbutt Registered User regular
    ArcSyn wrote: »
    My kids did something to my left joycon. Feels like the analog stick is pushing through molasses. Is this a common thing people have been talking about with the analog sticks?

    It's like the spring is stuck or something and doesn't pop back to center and is much harder to push around.

    Edit: and of course it's a tri-wing. You'd think I would own one of these by now. Is there a recommended set or size of these I should get?

    Sounds like there's gunk in there. Try blowing air in there to dislodge it, or if you're feeling adventurous, grab a screwdriver and open it up to clean it and void the warranty.

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