Tech company job offer

Meerkat

Hey guys,

So this isn't set in stone yet, but I got an interview with a dream company and things seem to be really promising, the thing is this would be the first actual tech company I would be working at and up until now I've only worked either gigs/odd jobs/freelance. They also sent me an email asking me a few things, and I want to make sure I don't do anything wrong. One thing they are asking for is what my preferred salary would be, and honestly for that I looked into glassdoor and have a good idea of what the salary is, it's a lot more than I make now so I was going to just give them the number I saw there.

One thing they are asking about also is bonus and equity, which I have zero clue about, can I just say whatever is standard? Does that come off wrong or is there a way I can look into that.

[Michael]

There was a little discussion in the programming thread a while back with some links with resources for this situation: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/37301979/#Comment_37301979

First job is tough to decide on how to negotiate, since you may feel like you're just lucky to find a job. I didn't negotiate at all my first job, but in retrospect, I probably should have at least a little.

The TLDR version is don't give them a preferred salary.

Meerkat

When you say don’t give them a preferred salary, does that mean don’t give them a low number they would be happy with? I’m totally in the boat of feeling lucky I even got the offer.

I just prefer giving the impression that I did my research, and am asking for something reasonable. They didn’t ask me what I am already making. Thank you so much for that link though, I’ll look into that thread.

CelestialBadger

I’ve never managed to dodge giving a preferred salary. It’s such an annoying question. Either you price yourself too high or undercut yourself. I guess from their point of view they know their budget and they don’t want to waste time interviewing someone who wants twice that.

zepherin

It's a mix. I know hiring managers who get annoyed at candidates who don't follow simple instructions. Others don't mind. Glassdoor and indeed are reasonably good, but it depends on what you are doing how much credible experience you have. If you do give them a preferred salary give them a range.

The other end of the spectrum is a psychological technique known as anchoring. If know you what a positions pay range is because you've been doing it for ten years, you give a number on the top end, and let them tell you what the budget is. Then they are negotiating you down as opposed to you bringing them up.

kime

Assuming you don't desperately need the job, pick something high. Like, unlikely they'd go for, but within reason and something you'd be very pleased with. Then, phrase it like "This is a salary that I'd prefer, but it all depends on the total package. Other benefits, equity, bonuses, and just the overall fit of the team will all be taken into account." I like the idea of giving a range, too.

Yeah, nowadays tech recruiters don't really let go without a preferred salary from my experience. In part because there's a big range, and they want to make sure this isn't a waste of everyone's time, and in part because I'm sure they're hoping to get lucky and have you lowball it

Take this all with a grain of salt, though, I've never really been involved on the salary negotiation from the company's side.

evilmrhenry

I'm not sure why they're asking for your opinion on bonuses and equity. That's usually not part of the negotiation. If they are offering you stock options in a private company, mentally set the value of those to 0. While you can get lucky, you probably won't. As for bonuses, that might be a signing bonus, which is usually to pay moving expenses, or a yearly bonus, which is like salary, but not as good.

CelestialBadger

I don’t believe in stock or bonuses. Had plenty of companies boast about them, never recieved any. They are mythical like fairies.

kime

evilmrhenry wrote: »

I'm not sure why they're asking for your opinion on bonuses and equity. That's usually not part of the negotiation. If they are offering you stock options in a private company, mentally set the value of those to 0. While you can get lucky, you probably won't. As for bonuses, that might be a signing bonus, which is usually to pay moving expenses, or a yearly bonus, which is like salary, but not as good.

I've had questions in both directions on equity, I think because opinions can vary wildly. As in, some companies have said "some of your compensation will be in regular stock grants, are you OK with that?" and some companies have said "none of your compensation will be in stock grants, are you OK with that?"

I agreed that bonuses deserve more poking as to the specifics of what's in writing/guaranteed and what's "expected" or whatnot if they are counting that as part of your compensation package.

CelestialBadger wrote: »

I don’t believe in stock or bonuses. Had plenty of companies boast about them, never recieved any. They are mythical like fairies.

If it's in writing, it can be just fine. For example, at Amazon I was guaranteed stock and annual bonuses for my first few years there, with more stock grants scheduled regularly in the future. It was part of my contract, so of course I received them. Definitely don't trust verbal promises or anything.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

Meerkat wrote: »

When you say don’t give them a preferred salary, does that mean don’t give them a low number they would be happy with? I’m totally in the boat of feeling lucky I even got the offer.

I just prefer giving the impression that I did my research, and am asking for something reasonable. They didn’t ask me what I am already making. Thank you so much for that link though, I’ll look into that thread.

a pretty common axiom in salary negotiation is to never make the first offer; this is because 1) you run the risk of offering either too high (potentially appearing unreasonable and/or hurting hiring prospects) or too low (reducing compensation, leading to resentment later) and 2) their counter-offer will then certainly come in a bit lower, and you've essentially negotiated against yourself. Of course, this reasoning also applies to the person doing the hiring so they will generally try to get you to give an opening number.

The company has some idea of what they want to pay you; if you responded to an ad that listed a range then you can just say you're comfortable negotiating within that and see what they come back with. If you haven't had the interview yet I also would be perfectly comfortable telling them you don't want to negotiate before then.

If on the other hand you don't mind being lowballed at bit (which is a fair decision) you could just kick them the glassdoor average; they're certainly aware of it as well so it won't seem like some outlandish number

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Meerkat

Wow, this has been an amazing read and I thank you all for the generous help, I hope this thread can help others too. So I set up a schedule for an interview, and there was a few questions in the email such as wages and such, I sent a formal reply thanking them for the response and was excited to move forward, and if they preferred to discuss the bullet points in the interview or if they needed an email response for them. I imagine I'll get a response by tomorrow for that.

It's a mix. I know hiring managers who get annoyed at candidates who don't follow simple instructions. Others don't mind. Glassdoor and indeed are reasonably good, but it depends on what you are doing how much credible experience you have. If you do give them a preferred salary give them a range.

Assuming you don't desperately need the job, pick something high. Like, unlikely they'd go for, but within reason and something you'd be very pleased with. Then, phrase it like "This is a salary that I'd prefer, but it all depends on the total package. Other benefits, equity, bonuses, and just the overall fit of the team will all be taken into account." I like the idea of giving a range, too.

If they press for numbers, I think I'll go ahead and give some sort of range like you guys mentioned. They also asked if I had any other pending offers, so the cards are not really in my favor in that regard. I just don't want to make a decision I'll kick myself for in a few years, but I have been looking into all the glassdoor info I can find, and the salaries I saw didn't vary too much from employee to employee who seemed to have reported and it was generally rising a little by each year. I just wanted to double check to see if asking for the entry glassdoor amounts would sound about right, again I still wouldn't know what to say for equity, so I'll give them a range if they push for it and let them hopefully give me some options.

If on the other hand you don't mind being lowballed at bit (which is a fair decision) you could just kick them the glassdoor average; they're certainly aware of it as well so it won't seem like some outlandish number

That's exactly what I was thinking, I have worked freelance for quite some while and with people they know, which is how this all started, but I really could use the office experience and the name will help a lot too I imagine. I'm honestly not worried about squeezing in a few extra grand or anything.

kime

At this stage, where you haven't interviewed yet, "Do you have any pending offers we should know about now?" is basically "We don't want to lose you, do we need to expedite the interview process to make sure we have an opportunity to give you an offer (if we want) before you just start accepting something from someone else?"

Don't worry about that not giving you leverage. Just, like always, phrase it positively. "No, I'm still in the interviewing stage with other companies too." Some recruiters will ask what companies, but I've never had anyone actually press on that if you don't want to answer.

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schuss

Also, I've found some success with "I look for interesting opportunities first, so if you can share some of the general range for this position it would help in determining if it's something I need to worry about"
Half the time they just spit out bottom half of the range, which gives you what you need. For companies that have glass door ranges, try dividing the range in 4, then adding 1/4 to the bottom of the range and it will often be close.

mts

you could probably say something like I was hoping for $XXXX based on x but I understand that there is going to be an amount you have available and that number is not a hard number. or something like that.

khain

If the company is large then levels.fyi or Paysa are way better for compensation than Glassdoor.

amateurhour

Personally, if they're asking about bonus and equity, I'd say "my estimation for salary is X, but I'm willing to consider less depending on the equity available"

OP I don't know how old you are, but there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong taking less (especially if less is going to be more than you make now) while also making sure you're getting a leg up on your retirement years.

I'm 35 and have been in the tech industry both private and public sector since I was 22, so what I'm telling you is just based on my personal experiences.

...also I'm about to leave technology behind to go be a farmer, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I am going to be a farmer with two nicely fed 401s / hybrid IRAs and a decent stock portfolio in case the corn doesn't grow.

Meerkat

My initial interview is next week, I'll let you guys know how that goes, thank you for all the help! Another weird question I had, so I emailed back asking if they preferred to discuss the questions in the email during the introductory interview or if they wanted me to let them know by email, I never got a response back, should I double dip and just give them the answers? (they were asking if I had any other pending offers and what my preference was for salary along with a few other questions)

Or should I just wait until interview.

kime

Meerkat wrote: »

My initial interview is next week, I'll let you guys know how that goes, thank you for all the help! Another weird question I had, so I emailed back asking if they preferred to discuss the questions in the email during the introductory interview or if they wanted me to let them know by email, I never got a response back, should I double dip and just give them the answers? (they were asking if I had any other pending offers and what my preference was for salary along with a few other questions)

Or should I just wait until interview.

Just wait. If it's a tech interview, your interviewer almost certainly won't care. The recruiter/HR will follow up when they actually want the info. You've replied, so it's not like they are waiting on you.

If this intro interview is with the recruiter/HR or otherwise not a technical interview, be ready for them to ask that, yeah. Generally that type of recruiter interview is very basic with those process-y questions and clarifying about some of the stuff on your resume (what programming languages have you used, what teams were you on, what are you looking for, what do you know about the company, etc.) Generally low-pressure stuff, but they do weed out some people if they just think they won't be a good fit (ie it's for a Machine Learning position and you actually don't have much Machine Learning experience or similar).

schuss

Also, general tip for if they use behavioral interviewing (you can usually Google):
They'll ask something like "tell me about a challenge you worked through" and they're looking for 3 things:
Situation: set the stage and context
Action: what did you do and why
Result: what were the results

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MsAnthropy

A few other pieces of advice for when you eventually get to technical interviews:

• Practice, practice, practice! Make sure that you really understand anything listed prominently on your resume.
• If you are asked to work through a problem / code /etc, make sure you clearly explain your thinking and put things down in writing on a whiteboard (if available).
• You won't know the answer to every question--when we interview we're often trying to find where the limits of everyone's knowledge is at, and everyone has limits.
• Don't get flustered or downtrodden when you don't have an answer, try to work through it with the interviewer by asking questions and explaining your thought processes. If you get completely stuck, it's okay to admit you are not sure how to proceed. Keeping your confidence up through difficulties will help you get through the process successfully.
• The questions you ask your interviewers are as important as the ones you answer. If your questions show that you have thought through the business, understand the culture, and care about things that are well aligned with those, then you will stand out from people with more generic queries.

Meerkat

So the interview was not with HR, but was with the actual team. I was rapid fired A LOT of questions, most of them I answered as best as possible. There was a few questions I had to pass up on, 2 of which the moment I hung up it hit me right away and was aware of what he was actually asking, I just wasn't familiar with the terminology he used at that moment. I am hoping my other answers is enough evidence that those were actually things I could normally answer.

Thanks again for all the help, I wish I was getting more interviews in general so I would have had more experience with answering. I want to say I was about 80-85% successful with my answers, and I also had a small list of questions I asked that opened up more conversations afterwards.

kime

Meerkat wrote: »

So the interview was not with HR, but was with the actual team. I was rapid fired A LOT of questions, most of them I answered as best as possible. There was a few questions I had to pass up on, 2 of which the moment I hung up it hit me right away and was aware of what he was actually asking, I just wasn't familiar with the terminology he used at that moment. I am hoping my other answers is enough evidence that those were actually things I could normally answer.

Thanks again for all the help, I wish I was getting more interviews in general so I would have had more experience with answering. I want to say I was about 80-85% successful with my answers, and I also had a small list of questions I asked that opened up more conversations afterwards.

That sounds positive, congrats! Good luck on results!