Frankly I'm stunned that there's people arguing, "Doing what's right doesn't mean that's what's best." Like what?
It's pretty simple. Does this actually help limit the damage Trump can do either by removing him from office or preventing re-election?
If not does it at least not *increase* those odds?
Dude has beat Nixon in the "deserves to be impeached" scoreboard and is creeping up on Jackson. I don't think anyone here doesn't think he deserves it.
An impeachment inquiry gets all the crimes on the front page every day for months. And by all the crimes, I mean the financial crimes. Voters HATE that shit.
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
+8
No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Frankly I'm stunned that there's people arguing, "Doing what's right doesn't mean that's what's best." Like what?
I am of the belief that the Democratic party gains true momentum when we firmly grasp the moral high ground, and we argue from moral points of view, and we lose when the energetic and populist part of the base feels like moral things are chess pieces that are only important when they're positioned for a viable move
it is constantly weird to me that these people, the highly principled and mercurial ones who only vote when they feel like they're taking part in something exciting, like real change and progress will happen and they get to be part of it, are vilified for this habit
maybe consider the possibility that they're a barometer for the health of the party, and if they, the supposed natural allies of the Democrats, are not showing up, that says something about how the party is meeting the needs of its most marginalized constituents
to put this another way: lots of Republicans are confused about the fact that Hispanics and Muslims don't vote for them more. we, on the left, do not find that even a little bit confusing, do we?
General elections are zero sum though and everyone should vote for whatever is closer to their interest even if they ain't thrilled by it.
Those people should be way more involved in primaries and downballot though. And hey in 2018, they were! Hooray!
Also yelling at people that they should show up regardless isn't zero sum with yelling at the politios for not inspiring them to do so. You need both, we just happen to do the former here more because only one group is actually on these forums.
(For which Tube is devoutly thankful).
Short version: if you want Trump impeached, two things:
Understand that he isn't getting removed, because the GOP is ass. Focus your anger their way most of all.
Call your reps and tell them so. Make the noise "support primary opponent" if they disagree. Do this even if they're GOPers.
I just sent a message to my representative that I will not vote for a single member of the democratic party in 2020 if they do not at least pursue impeachment.
I won't vote for a Republican, but I guess not even trying to fight a criminal president is the straw that will break my back.
I been arguing for impeachment since before the report because I think its a positive for the Dems to start proceedings even if it falls flat in the Senate.
The only people who are going to think Trump is innocent from a party-line vote in the Senate are the people who already do. The Democrats need energy in their own voting bloc. If they get everyone energized and off their asses, they don't need the stupid people who are on the fence and can't come to an opinion about Trumps fitness to hold the office of the President.
Symbolic or not, that this Impeachment will turn out to be, its a symbol of upholding the law that the Democrats need to ascribe to.
I just sent a message to my representative that I will not vote for a single democrat in 2020 if they do not at least pursue impeachment.
I won't vote for a Republican, but I guess not even trying to fight a criminal president is the straw that will break my back.
Don't do this, they'll shut you out. Tell them you'll support a primary challenge. People respond better to that kind of threat, usually.
(Also don't actually do this, we kinda need to replace RBG/Breyer with younger people and also pack the court)
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
I just sent a message to my representative that I will not vote for a single democrat in 2020 if they do not at least pursue impeachment.
I won't vote for a Republican, but I guess not even trying to fight a criminal president is the straw that will break my back.
Don't do this, they'll shut you out. Tell them you'll support a primary challenge. People respond better to that kind of threat, usually
I sincerely doubt Mark Pocan will be primaried, so this is an even bigger empty threat, and my wife would kill me if I attempted to do so myself.
Y'all can't find some liberal crusader in Madison to take a shot?
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
I just sent a message to my representative that I will not vote for a single democrat in 2020 if they do not at least pursue impeachment.
I won't vote for a Republican, but I guess not even trying to fight a criminal president is the straw that will break my back.
Don't do this, they'll shut you out. Tell them you'll support a primary challenge. People respond better to that kind of threat, usually
I sincerely doubt Mark Pocan will be primaried, so this is an even bigger empty threat, and my wife would kill me if I attempted to do so myself.
Y'all can't find some liberal crusader in Madison to take a shot?
Someone might take a shot, but most politics in Madison is centered around the city and state. Washington is an after thought if its thought of at all.
The only reason I think is potentially justification for not impeaching is if it poses some sort of double jeopardy issue for a future administration prosecuting Trump and associates.
Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
0
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
Frankly I'm stunned that there's people arguing, "Doing what's right doesn't mean that's what's best." Like what?
I am of the belief that the Democratic party gains true momentum when we firmly grasp the moral high ground, and we argue from moral points of view, and we lose when the energetic and populist part of the base feels like moral things are chess pieces that are only important when they're positioned for a viable move
it is constantly weird to me that these people, the highly principled and mercurial ones who only vote when they feel like they're taking part in something exciting, like real change and progress will happen and they get to be part of it, are vilified for this habit
maybe consider the possibility that they're a barometer for the health of the party, and if they, the supposed natural allies of the Democrats, are not showing up, that says something about how the party is meeting the needs of its most marginalized constituents
to put this another way: lots of Republicans are confused about the fact that Hispanics and Muslims don't vote for them more. we, on the left, do not find that even a little bit confusing, do we?
General elections are zero sum though and everyone should vote for whatever is closer to their interest even if they ain't thrilled by it.
Those people should be way more involved in primaries and downballot though. And hey in 2018, they were! Hooray!
Also yelling at people that they should show up regardless isn't zero sum with yelling at the politios for not inspiring them to do so. You need both, we just happen to do the former here more because only one group is actually on these forums.
(For which Tube is devoutly thankful).
Short version: if you want Trump impeached, two things:
Understand that he isn't getting removed, because the GOP is ass. Focus your anger their way most of all.
Call your reps and tell them so. Make the noise "support primary opponent" if they disagree. Do this even if they're GOPers.
The only reason I think is potentially justification for not impeaching is if it poses some sort of double jeopardy issue for a future administration prosecuting Trump and associates.
Not a legal proceeding, no jeopardy attached.
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Democrats should be moving to impeach. After the report there is no situation in which we cannot. If we do not move to impeach and start holding hearings then the media will claim that democrats in congress have exonerated trump.
Goumindong on
+5
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Exit polls from the election had 77% of Democrats wanting impeachment, with 5% of Republicans and 33% of Independents wanting it. After all that math it came out to 40% of "All Americans" (all voting). [1]
Democrat leadership is largely ignoring their fucking base right now and they suck ass for it.
What good does impeachment do? How does it help anything?
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
The same thing will happen in 2020. "What good will throwing him in jail do now?" Says the newly empowered Democratic majority. But then someone worse than Bush comes along in 2028 and wins because we are all corrupt anyway, just look at that President we didn't impeach / charge with war crimes... oh wait... I am getting my former presidents messed up. This is history repeating itself with the Democratic centrists just wanting to win elections and not do what is morally (then) and Constitutional (now) obligated.
Exit polls from the election had 77% of Democrats wanting impeachment, with 5% of Republicans and 33% of Independents wanting it. After all that math it came out to 40% of "All Americans" (all voting). [1]
Democrat leadership is largely ignoring their fucking base right now and they suck ass for it.
Huh, I'm surprised by those numbers. I expected pro-impeachment to be much lower.
If the Den base is strongly desiring impeachment, then it may be a good move to do it, even though Trump will not be removed. If "independents" or whatever go more for impeachment after the Mueller report, then it would be a really good idea. Rally the base, draw in independents, and drive a blue wave in 2020.
I think it's way to soon to gauge the fallout from the Mueller report to make any strong determinations yet. At the time I'm posting this it's not even 6 o'clock west coast. Impeachment's political value could change quite a bit depending on what rhe narrative is next week.
What good does impeachment do? How does it help anything?
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
You impeach if you think it gets you something. In my view it gets you nothing but I basically use Pelosi as my guide. She knows how to win. If she thinks she can get some advantage with impeachment the go for it. On the other hand, I think she realizes that she isn't going to lose any votes by not impeaching. It's not like people will be so mad the Dems didn't impeach that they are going to vote for the Green Party in 2020.
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
I see no definitive proof that impeaching Trump hurts the Dems in 2020. We have only one other example in modern history and it was a popular president over a petty issue. This is neither of those things and opens up the option of dragging out that much more in the light.
What good does impeachment do? How does it help anything?
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
You impeach if you think it gets you something. In my view it gets you nothing but I basically use Pelosi as my guide. She knows how to win. If she thinks she can get some advantage with impeachment the go for it. On the other hand, I think she realizes that she isn't going to lose any votes by not impeaching. It's not like people will be so mad the Dems didn't impeach that they are going to vote for the Green Party in 2020.
I think if the party continues to foster the perception that they don't particularly care whether Trump stays in office, the voters will respond in kind.
What good does impeachment do? How does it help anything?
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
You impeach if you think it gets you something. In my view it gets you nothing but I basically use Pelosi as my guide. She knows how to win. If she thinks she can get some advantage with impeachment the go for it. On the other hand, I think she realizes that she isn't going to lose any votes by not impeaching. It's not like people will be so mad the Dems didn't impeach that they are going to vote for the Green Party in 2020.
What good does impeachment do? How does it help anything?
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
You impeach if you think it gets you something. In my view it gets you nothing but I basically use Pelosi as my guide. She knows how to win. If she thinks she can get some advantage with impeachment the go for it. On the other hand, I think she realizes that she isn't going to lose any votes by not impeaching. It's not like people will be so mad the Dems didn't impeach that they are going to vote for the Green Party in 2020.
On the contrary, I think that kind of privileged indignation is entirely plausable. Flippantly dismissing the most passionate leftist could hamstring the Dems in 2020.
As a more productive post, Pelosi is excellent at managing the House. She's not as great at the other parts of the job and I wouldn't look to her on this.
I am definitely of the opinion that conflict should be avoided is bunk. People hemmed and hawed over the Kavanaugh hearings riling up the Pub base and it came to nothing. I see impeachment no more of a threat, especially if it finally gets him to sit in front of a camera and have to answer hard questions.
Fuck Adam Schiff in particular on this. Dude has spent the last couple years jumping in front of every camera he could find to talk about Russia and now cards on the table he's all well it won't succeed and bloo bloo bloo.
Only doing things the GOP will back you on is capitulating to the Republican dream of a darker and crueler world.
elect us so we can stop trump
okay
*immediately punts responsibility back to the voters*
good lord in heaven even i'm starting to think both parties are the same
I don't really understand what you mean.
Had "us" been elected in a wave in the Senate as well as the House, they would currently be impeaching because it would be an effective and straightforward way to stop the administration.
Unfortunately, the House is what we have. It is now arguable whether or not it is worth it to impeach, horribly. It's obviously correct, still. It's just that the Senate is 100% absolutely going to split on party lines. Which means it's a calculation about the relative benefits of impeachment proceedings. Will they be a useful way to make sure everyone is aware of the crimes and fired up to vote the bastards out? Will it be an effective method for Republicans to gin up party support by talking about how actually this is all just Democratic legislators being sore losers?
I don't have an answer to the question of what is most politically expedient, but that's the thing that matters right now. The correct moral, ethical, legislative, just... logical response to an utterly corrupt and unfit executive has been stymied by the fact that our system of governance is awful.
Do what you can to elect Harris/Walz and downticket Dem candidates in your area by doorknocking, phonebanking, or postcarding: https://www.mobilize.us/
What good does impeachment do? How does it help anything?
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
Its all optics. If not impeachment then hearings towards that effect with impeachment not off the table.
The point is to push enthusiasm so we can win an election. I absolutely think that if we don't push hard the media will hammer democrats for it. It will further the 'both ides are the same' narrative and all the other things that we must fight tooth and nail against.
+3
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I feel like some people are acting like impeachment means he can't be taken to court. "It's political not legal, just framed that way." So it's not a Double-Jeopardy thing of being tried for the same crime twice.
So you ask "what is there to gain" while I'm asking "what is there to lose."
+1
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
+24
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
now that the report is out, which I definitely thought they should wait for, so this isn't just speculation now... I don't think there's anyone that would be against impeachment that isn't already behind trump completely. make it clear from the get go that you know it will fail, never let it be sold as a loss, ever. say we want to make clear to the public that he has done /whatever the exact words are for impeachment, I can't remember, but use the exact wording/ and even though the republicans don't care, we do.
I saw 3 tweets from AOC that I thought framed it really well. and you also list, ya know, all the specific worst things in one 2-page statement or whatever, again use exact quotes
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
It'd be one thing if Democrat leadership was saying "we're not shutting down the idea of impeachment, we just have a couple things to do before we do it."
But they're shutting it down entirely for certain.
Just a reminder that Joe Crowley was as safe from a primary as any of the other senior Dems in the house, including Hoyer
The defeated former Dem House leader’s district is now represented by AOC
Dems need to be firing up their base vs worrying about “undecideds” or what the media is going to do- nearly everybody who could vote in 2020 has an opinion on Trump already and there’s way more that hate him than approve of him- you need to do things like standing up against the idea that the president is both above the law and too fucking stupid to properly commit crimes he wanted to commit to motivate them to vote for you
2018 may not have won the Senate but it was one of the biggest fucking midterm landslides in modern US history- it’s a huge, relevant and timely lesson about what happens when people are properly motivated to vote
Also Jesus Christ, the redacted report today contained dozens of paragraphs that could each serve as a separate article of impeachment! And it’s not just a news article people can dismiss because of the brain-rotting propaganda issue we have- this came from Trump’s DOJ! (yeah it’s his personal legal defense firm now)
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
“Based on what we have seen to date, going forward on impeachment is not worthwhile at this point. Very frankly, there is an election in 18 months and the American people will make a judgement,” is the quote. No mention of 'well we'll see what Mueller says, they seem content to do nothing and leave it for the election.
+5
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
It'd be one thing if Democrat leadership was saying "we're not shutting down the idea of impeachment, we just have a couple things to do before we do it."
But they're shutting it down entirely for certain.
I mean, well see. Not having the full report and hearing Muellers oral summary is kind of a big deal.
Trump’s actions this week, along with Barr’s, are continued evidence of his obstruction into several ongoing investigations.
Maybe the GOP can get away with impeaching a guy for a blowjob. The Dems unfortunately don’t live in the same reality, and if there’s more ammunition to be mined in just a few weeks, I’m all for waiting for it.
Still in the wild:
- full report
- Mueller’s testimony
- Tax subpoenas
- Financial subpoenas
All of those could be arriving in the next few weeks. I’m happy for the powers that be to keep the knives sheathed for now if it means they get to use axes later.
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
“Based on what we have seen to date, going forward on impeachment is not worthwhile at this point. Very frankly, there is an election in 18 months and the American people will make a judgement,” is the quote. No mention of 'well we'll see what Mueller says, they seem content to do nothing and leave it for the election.
My only hope is that I’m not wrong in my belief that 75% of House Dems are as sick of Hoyer’s shit as I am (and have been since 2006)
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
“Based on what we have seen to date, going forward on impeachment is not worthwhile at this point. Very frankly, there is an election in 18 months and the American people will make a judgement,” is the quote. No mention of 'well we'll see what Mueller says, they seem content to do nothing and leave it for the election.
Yeah. He needs to shut the fuck up. Impeachment proceedings have fuck-all to do with elections.
I have to hope this call for caution in the Dems is due to there still being several weeks’ worth of testimony and filings and subpoenas still out in the wild.
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
“Based on what we have seen to date, going forward on impeachment is not worthwhile at this point. Very frankly, there is an election in 18 months and the American people will make a judgement,” is the quote. No mention of 'well we'll see what Mueller says, they seem content to do nothing and leave it for the election.
My only hope is that I’m not wrong in my belief that 75% of House Dems are as sick of Hoyer’s shit as I am (and have been since 2006)
Then they probably should stop giving the idiot the Majority Leader spot.
Posts
An impeachment inquiry gets all the crimes on the front page every day for months. And by all the crimes, I mean the financial crimes. Voters HATE that shit.
Also yelling at people that they should show up regardless isn't zero sum with yelling at the politios for not inspiring them to do so. You need both, we just happen to do the former here more because only one group is actually on these forums.
(For which Tube is devoutly thankful).
Short version: if you want Trump impeached, two things:
Understand that he isn't getting removed, because the GOP is ass. Focus your anger their way most of all.
Call your reps and tell them so. Make the noise "support primary opponent" if they disagree. Do this even if they're GOPers.
I won't vote for a Republican, but I guess not even trying to fight a criminal president is the straw that will break my back.
The only people who are going to think Trump is innocent from a party-line vote in the Senate are the people who already do. The Democrats need energy in their own voting bloc. If they get everyone energized and off their asses, they don't need the stupid people who are on the fence and can't come to an opinion about Trumps fitness to hold the office of the President.
Symbolic or not, that this Impeachment will turn out to be, its a symbol of upholding the law that the Democrats need to ascribe to.
Don't do this, they'll shut you out. Tell them you'll support a primary challenge. People respond better to that kind of threat, usually.
(Also don't actually do this, we kinda need to replace RBG/Breyer with younger people and also pack the court)
I sincerely doubt Mark Pocan will be primaried, so this is an even bigger empty threat, and my wife would kill me if I attempted to do so myself.
Y'all can't find some liberal crusader in Madison to take a shot?
Someone might take a shot, but most politics in Madison is centered around the city and state. Washington is an after thought if its thought of at all.
Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
golly this sure was a wild couple of posts
Not a legal proceeding, no jeopardy attached.
Democrat leadership is largely ignoring their fucking base right now and they suck ass for it.
It hurts 2020 and we ain’t getting him convicted in the senate. What’s the point?
Beat him in 2020 then throw his ass in jail once he’s not president
I don't think it hurts 2020 anymore than being handed a bunch of verified criminal information and saying 'nah, we're good thanks'
I find fundamental fault with the formula that trying and failing is worse than not trying at all.
The same thing will happen in 2020. "What good will throwing him in jail do now?" Says the newly empowered Democratic majority. But then someone worse than Bush comes along in 2028 and wins because we are all corrupt anyway, just look at that President we didn't impeach / charge with war crimes... oh wait... I am getting my former presidents messed up. This is history repeating itself with the Democratic centrists just wanting to win elections and not do what is morally (then) and Constitutional (now) obligated.
Huh, I'm surprised by those numbers. I expected pro-impeachment to be much lower.
If the Den base is strongly desiring impeachment, then it may be a good move to do it, even though Trump will not be removed. If "independents" or whatever go more for impeachment after the Mueller report, then it would be a really good idea. Rally the base, draw in independents, and drive a blue wave in 2020.
I think it's way to soon to gauge the fallout from the Mueller report to make any strong determinations yet. At the time I'm posting this it's not even 6 o'clock west coast. Impeachment's political value could change quite a bit depending on what rhe narrative is next week.
okay
*immediately punts responsibility back to the voters*
good lord in heaven even i'm starting to think both parties are the same
You impeach if you think it gets you something. In my view it gets you nothing but I basically use Pelosi as my guide. She knows how to win. If she thinks she can get some advantage with impeachment the go for it. On the other hand, I think she realizes that she isn't going to lose any votes by not impeaching. It's not like people will be so mad the Dems didn't impeach that they are going to vote for the Green Party in 2020.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
I think if the party continues to foster the perception that they don't particularly care whether Trump stays in office, the voters will respond in kind.
Have you read the thread?
2019: what are they gonna do, vote green party?
On the contrary, I think that kind of privileged indignation is entirely plausable. Flippantly dismissing the most passionate leftist could hamstring the Dems in 2020.
Only doing things the GOP will back you on is capitulating to the Republican dream of a darker and crueler world.
I don't really understand what you mean.
Had "us" been elected in a wave in the Senate as well as the House, they would currently be impeaching because it would be an effective and straightforward way to stop the administration.
Unfortunately, the House is what we have. It is now arguable whether or not it is worth it to impeach, horribly. It's obviously correct, still. It's just that the Senate is 100% absolutely going to split on party lines. Which means it's a calculation about the relative benefits of impeachment proceedings. Will they be a useful way to make sure everyone is aware of the crimes and fired up to vote the bastards out? Will it be an effective method for Republicans to gin up party support by talking about how actually this is all just Democratic legislators being sore losers?
I don't have an answer to the question of what is most politically expedient, but that's the thing that matters right now. The correct moral, ethical, legislative, just... logical response to an utterly corrupt and unfit executive has been stymied by the fact that our system of governance is awful.
Its all optics. If not impeachment then hearings towards that effect with impeachment not off the table.
The point is to push enthusiasm so we can win an election. I absolutely think that if we don't push hard the media will hammer democrats for it. It will further the 'both ides are the same' narrative and all the other things that we must fight tooth and nail against.
So you ask "what is there to gain" while I'm asking "what is there to lose."
Honestly I’d be reluctant to press the Impeachment Button until Mueller gets his hearing and we get a full report. We still don’t know a whole lot about the case, and we have a president still (STILL!!) attempting to obscure any and all info related to the investigation.
I need momentum on this, but I don’t need it today. I do, however, need Steny Hoyer to shut his fucking yap.
I saw 3 tweets from AOC that I thought framed it really well. and you also list, ya know, all the specific worst things in one 2-page statement or whatever, again use exact quotes
But they're shutting it down entirely for certain.
The defeated former Dem House leader’s district is now represented by AOC
Dems need to be firing up their base vs worrying about “undecideds” or what the media is going to do- nearly everybody who could vote in 2020 has an opinion on Trump already and there’s way more that hate him than approve of him- you need to do things like standing up against the idea that the president is both above the law and too fucking stupid to properly commit crimes he wanted to commit to motivate them to vote for you
2018 may not have won the Senate but it was one of the biggest fucking midterm landslides in modern US history- it’s a huge, relevant and timely lesson about what happens when people are properly motivated to vote
Also Jesus Christ, the redacted report today contained dozens of paragraphs that could each serve as a separate article of impeachment! And it’s not just a news article people can dismiss because of the brain-rotting propaganda issue we have- this came from Trump’s DOJ! (yeah it’s his personal legal defense firm now)
“Based on what we have seen to date, going forward on impeachment is not worthwhile at this point. Very frankly, there is an election in 18 months and the American people will make a judgement,” is the quote. No mention of 'well we'll see what Mueller says, they seem content to do nothing and leave it for the election.
I mean, well see. Not having the full report and hearing Muellers oral summary is kind of a big deal.
Trump’s actions this week, along with Barr’s, are continued evidence of his obstruction into several ongoing investigations.
Maybe the GOP can get away with impeaching a guy for a blowjob. The Dems unfortunately don’t live in the same reality, and if there’s more ammunition to be mined in just a few weeks, I’m all for waiting for it.
Still in the wild:
- full report
- Mueller’s testimony
- Tax subpoenas
- Financial subpoenas
All of those could be arriving in the next few weeks. I’m happy for the powers that be to keep the knives sheathed for now if it means they get to use axes later.
My only hope is that I’m not wrong in my belief that 75% of House Dems are as sick of Hoyer’s shit as I am (and have been since 2006)
Yeah. He needs to shut the fuck up. Impeachment proceedings have fuck-all to do with elections.
Then they probably should stop giving the idiot the Majority Leader spot.