Somebody explain to me why impeachment, which has no hope of succeeding in the Senate, is political theater, while passing HR 1, which has no hope of succeeding in the Senate, is not
I think "theatre" is the wrong metaphor. The Democrats aren't putting on a play, they're giving a sales pitch, and everything they do between now and November of 2020 is part of that pitch. And there's only so much oxygen in the room so what is part of the pitch and what isn't should be chosen carefully.
Trump won because he promised people shit. A big wall. A muslim ban. Etc. It was stupid, xenophobic shit, but it was shit that a large portion of the country ate up. Now the country wants to know: what's the counter offer? What are you, the Democrats, gonna offer me, the voter, if I vote for you?
Impeachment? That's a weak pitch. You want me to vote for you so you can vote Trump out? We can vote him out ourselves, thanks. HR1? You want me to vote for you so you can make it easier for people to vote for you?
No. Wrong. Offer me something that will make my life better. Focus on that. Write big, ambitious House bills that could become law if you won the Senate and the Presidency. Hold big rallies to promote them. Promise me a living wage. Healthcare as a basic right. The end of fossil fuels. The end of mass shootings. People want ideas, not infighting.
Pence feels like the most non-present VP in my personal memory. Am I off about that? I constantly forget he exists.
He's been the one trying to convince Republican Congress-critters to vote for bills Trump wants. He was heavily involved in the ACA repeal attempt, among other things.
What he's doing isn't very public because it's mostly behind closed doors with Republican Senators, etc.
Somebody explain to me why impeachment, which has no hope of succeeding in the Senate, is political theater, while passing HR 1, which has no hope of succeeding in the Senate, is not
I think "theatre" is the wrong metaphor. The Democrats aren't putting on a play, they're giving a sales pitch, and everything they do between now and November of 2020 is part of that pitch. And there's only so much oxygen in the room so what is part of the pitch and what isn't should be chosen carefully.
Trump won because he promised people shit. A big wall. A muslim ban. Etc. It was stupid, xenophobic shit, but it was shit that a large portion of the country ate up. Now the country wants to know: what's the counter offer? What are you, the Democrats, gonna offer me, the voter, if I vote for you?
Impeachment? That's a weak pitch. You want me to vote for you so you can vote Trump out? We can vote him out ourselves, thanks. HR1? You want me to vote for you so you can make it easier for people to vote for you?
No. Wrong. Offer me something that will make my life better. Focus on that. Write big, ambitious House bills that could become law if you won the Senate and the Presidency. Hold big rallies to promote them. Promise me a living wage. Healthcare as a basic right. The end of fossil fuels. The end of mass shootings. People want ideas, not infighting.
Trump also promised to "lock her up". So if we're following Trump's example we should also run on lock him up.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Pence feels like the most non-present VP in my personal memory. Am I off about that? I constantly forget he exists.
Pence has been busy doing a lot of stuff that doesn't garner a lot of big media attention, like visiting the area of the massive flood disasters in Nebraska, traveling around central/south America to bolster support for the opposition in Venezuela, campaigning for various Republicans, and pretty constantly attending big "faith" events.
The Senate will never convict him, so even if the House does vote to impeach nothing will happen. It's not a roll of the dice or whatever other metaphor you prefer for me, it's a statement of fact. With how things are set up right now there is no benefit from starting impeachment proceedings.
Continue the other investigations. Vote him out. Lock his ass up for the crimes he's done once he doesn't have an entire political party in position to block all the levers of punishment.
Yes this puts all the eggs in the 2020 basket but I don't see any other ways to get things done before then.
It is absolutely not a statement of fact, as we saw with the Republican senators voting to overturn Trump's Emergency Powers.
The only statement of fact here is that Trump will not be impeached if impeachment never starts. I would certainly agree that it is very unlikely that Trump will be impeached if proceeding start now, but it is possible.
I think that since January 20th of this year, Democrats have had both a moral and ethical responsibility to impeach the president. We know that he's been involved in many felony crimes and that his continuing time in office is literally killing people. Would you tell someone stuck in one of Trumps detention camps or someone who is being denied necessary government care due to Trumps redefinition of poverty levels that they should be patient because realpolitik?
The realpolitik situation is that the Democratic party cannot directly stop the Republicans. This means we have to use indirect means, such as the media, to undermine the Republicans. Someone stated earlier in the thread that impeachment would essentially cut-off all other messaging from the Democrats. And while this is true, I think the current messaging is ineffective, and we should keep in mind that it will also cut off Republican messaging.
Right now instead of impeachment the dem comittees would be a lot better off investigating quietly for a year and then releasing every bit of dirt they found in July of next year.
I've been waiting for two years on the current investigation, and now you're telling me I should wait for another year and a half? And you think voters won't recognize that if impeachment and/or releases happen in an election year, it's because it is meant to affect the election?
If we impeach now and it fails the Senate, then Democrats messaging from the date of failure until the election day should be "Look at how corrupt our system has become. Vote out these clowns."
Somebody explain to me why impeachment, which has no hope of succeeding in the Senate, is political theater, while passing HR 1, which has no hope of succeeding in the Senate, is not
Edit: to be more substantive:
The dichotomy between campaiging on 2020 policy and impeaching Trump is a competely false one
In fact, even if you assume it’s not, now is the perfect time for impeachment, while the Democratic primary is underway.
I don't see why we should take it as a given that impeachment is "the right thing to do" in an ethical or moral sense. I haven't seen anyone actually make that case, rather than just asserting it true.
Impeachment is a way for congress to serve as a check on the president. But it is not the only way for congress to do so - they can also run investigations on the president and his minions.
Also consider that the electorate is ALSO a check on the president - every four years, they get to decide if he sucks or not.
So what if one of those checks might interfere with another one? What if the act of impeachment gives the president ammo to further subvert justice by keeping himself in office?
I can't tell if your argument is that we don't know if impeachment will hurt or help, therefore we should do it, or that it doesn't matter if it will make things worse, it doesn't matter if it has any chance of working, we need to do it because the simple act of impeaching is worth all the bad things.
Or are you actually assuming the Senate might vote to convict? Because if so, then.... um.
I don’t believe the Senate would vote to convict.
But take that out of the equation. Does Trump deserve to be removed from office? I would argue that that is undeniable. He sided with a foreign government over this country for financial gain, attempted to cover up an attack by that foreign government, lied repeatedly to the American people, violated campaign finance laws, put kids in cages, is manifestly unfit to do the job, the list goes on and on and on and I’m not even including the stuff that isn’t confirmed & public.
Imagine Trump had shot someone on 5th Avenue—do we leave it up to the voters in a couple years to decide whether they want him as president? Presidents should not be above the law, and the Constitutional remedy for this situation is impeachment.
We can argue the political wisdom of launching an impeachment attempt, but I had assumed everybody in this thread would be calling for impeachment if they thought the Senate would convict.
Can you explain why it was the right decision to impeach Nixon but not the right decision now to impeach Trump, based on the merits of their actions and not the makeup of the Senate or the political fallout? Or do you believe Nixon should not have been impeached?
I believe it was the right action to impeach Nixon because it was an appropriate response that had a chance of being effective in its goal of removing Nixon from power, and doing it didn't actively make it LESS likely that Nixon would be removed from power. The fact that it had a chance of working is why it's not directly comparable.
Your argument in favor of impeaching Trump seems to consist almost entirely of "Trump should be removed from power." Which, yeah, we agree on that. I don't think either of us dispute that getting Trump out of office is the right thing to do. He is a blight on democracy and on the presidency. He does immense harm every day he's in power. I think he deserves to be impeached, and if there was a measurable chance of him being removed from office via impeachment, I'd be leading the fucking charge.
But the point of contention - and correct me i'm wrong - is that I am concerned with the outcome while you think the actual impeachment is the most important thing. Basically, I think we should weigh the possibility that impeachment makes it LESS likely that we actually neuter Trump by getting him out of office, while you find that irrelevant and feel we should impeach Trump on principle, damn the consequences.
I think that maybe your main goal is seeing Trump formally rebuked, while my main goal is getting him out of a position to inflict further harm. Is this accurate?
You're putting realpolitik ahead of the ethical and moral concerns, then stating that nobody has successfully demonstrated that there are ethical and moral concerns. I've seen you call many others on this forum when they've tried this type of argument. I expected better of you.
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
Because impeachment is, ultimately, a political process, not a legal one. The Republicans will never vote to impeach or to remove their own president - they know that doing so will cut their own throats. And knowing that, what are you going to accomplish with impeachment proceedings?
Note well, this fucking sucks. But as long as the GOP puts their own well-being before the country, this is the problem.
The man is a clear and present danger. He must be removed. Hoyer needs a primary.
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
Because people not voting is how we got in to this situation in the first place.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
The man is a clear and present danger. He must be removed. Hoyer needs a primary.
Impeachment will not remove him - the GOP has made sure of that. An election can.
Doesn't matter. I often argue for political expediency, but not this time.
If Donald Trump is not impeached, we are accepting that the president is above the law. If he's not removed, that's on the GOP Senators and may they burn in hell. But force them to make the fucking decision.
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Everyone's acting like Trump's already lost the next election which isn't true
If we remove him we can save the country another 4 years of corrupt bullshit
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Up to today I was thinking "impeachment proceedings must take forever." Then I looked up Clinton's and the timetable was Dec 1998 to Feb 1999.
So the "it takes a long time, we're close enough to election" excuse that I helped push up until now is a huge load of shit. What then is the reason why this isn't "worthwhile"? Don't tell me 5th Dimensional Chess bullshit because it is exactly that and any politician who claims it truly does not give a damn about the country.
Everyone's acting like Trump's already lost the next election which isn't true
If we remove him we can save the country another 4 years of corrupt bullshit
Technically he can be impeached and still run. Go figure.
The higher up Dems if they aren't going to impeach ought to be clearer as to why. I can get the calculus but I shouldn't have to. Put it on McConnell and hang his ass around every GOPers neck like they try with Pelosi.
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ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
I believe with things being this close to an election, I believe part of the calculus goes along the lines of, "failing to impeach him will depress Dem turnout and increase GOP turnout." Which isn't something I can argue against in good faith, even if I think he should be impeached post haste. Especially considering the GOP in the Senate wouldn't dare vote to remove him from office.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
"Close enough to an election" is the bullshit the GOP used to not nominate Obama's SCOTUS pick.
Unless the election is next fucking week, it's a garbage excuse.
Up to today I was thinking "impeachment proceedings must take forever." Then I looked up Clinton's and the timetable was Dec 1998 to Feb 1999.
So the "it takes a long time, we're close enough to election" excuse that I helped push up until now is a huge load of shit. What then is the reason why this isn't "worthwhile"? Don't tell me 5th Dimensional Chess bullshit because it is exactly that and any politician who claims it truly does not give a damn about the country.
Look what being impeached and acquitted did for Clinton's approval ratings. That's what they are scared of happening.
+2
MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
Because impeachment is, ultimately, a political process, not a legal one. The Republicans will never vote to impeach or to remove their own president - they know that doing so will cut their own throats. And knowing that, what are you going to accomplish with impeachment proceedings?
Force them to take the vote and defend it.
Even if the outcome is "nope, he stays," having the fight is important because it is right and necessary thing to do.
Up to today I was thinking "impeachment proceedings must take forever." Then I looked up Clinton's and the timetable was Dec 1998 to Feb 1999.
So the "it takes a long time, we're close enough to election" excuse that I helped push up until now is a huge load of shit. What then is the reason why this isn't "worthwhile"? Don't tell me 5th Dimensional Chess bullshit because it is exactly that and any politician who claims it truly does not give a damn about the country.
Because impeachment is a political process, even though it has the trappings of a legal one. In fact, the fact that it is wrapped in the garb of the law is what makes it so problematic - because how do you think the Senate voting party line not to remove will be framed?
Up to today I was thinking "impeachment proceedings must take forever." Then I looked up Clinton's and the timetable was Dec 1998 to Feb 1999.
So the "it takes a long time, we're close enough to election" excuse that I helped push up until now is a huge load of shit. What then is the reason why this isn't "worthwhile"? Don't tell me 5th Dimensional Chess bullshit because it is exactly that and any politician who claims it truly does not give a damn about the country.
Because impeachment is a political process, even though it has the trappings of a legal one. In fact, the fact that it is wrapped in the garb of the law is what makes it so problematic - because how do you think the Senate voting party line not to remove will be framed?
Because I can tell you - exoneration.
Sometimes you have to do what's right and fuck the fucking New York Times' spin.
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
It's not surprising; the House was banking on Mueller giving them clearer direction, or just doing it himself. For him to say 'I can't do anything, but there's enough in here to make it' just means that nothing is going to happen.
Everyone is going to walk right up to that line and then never cross it, hoping to make it someone elses problem. Dems wanted to make it Mueller's, Mueller made it Congresses problem, and Congress is going to make it the voters problem. And none of them will fail to claim credit from whoever actually fixes it.
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
Not voting is why we are in this mess!
Edit: Wow, beaten multiple times.
So instead I should vote for people who are demonstrably useless and unwilling to even attempt to make people answer for their crimes because protecting a couple of vulnerable house districts and Joe (Fuckin') Manchin is more important?
I would posit that this is a distinction without difference. Democratic leadership doesn't care, and everyone else is unwilling or unable to put someone in place who will.
Its odd to spin a hilariously corrupt president going through public impeachment as a liability for anyone other than him and his party.
Maybe the investigation itself was unfair, but that wasn't Bill Clinton's call and he was blatantly guilty of obstruction of justice. That didn't stop his impeachment from shooting his approval up 20 points.
Its odd to spin a hilariously corrupt president going through public impeachment as a liability for anyone other than him and his party.
Maybe the investigation itself was unfair, but that wasn't Bill Clinton's call and he was blatantly guilty of obstruction of justice. That didn't stop his impeachment from shooting his approval up 20 points.
I think comparing going after Trump to what Clinton was liable for is misleading. For all his sins Clinton never had the liability Trump does.
Posts
Can't speak to past VPs, but yeah, I'm convinced that he does literally nothing. He's just in hiding until this whole thing blows over.
Trump won because he promised people shit. A big wall. A muslim ban. Etc. It was stupid, xenophobic shit, but it was shit that a large portion of the country ate up. Now the country wants to know: what's the counter offer? What are you, the Democrats, gonna offer me, the voter, if I vote for you?
Impeachment? That's a weak pitch. You want me to vote for you so you can vote Trump out? We can vote him out ourselves, thanks. HR1? You want me to vote for you so you can make it easier for people to vote for you?
No. Wrong. Offer me something that will make my life better. Focus on that. Write big, ambitious House bills that could become law if you won the Senate and the Presidency. Hold big rallies to promote them. Promise me a living wage. Healthcare as a basic right. The end of fossil fuels. The end of mass shootings. People want ideas, not infighting.
He's been the one trying to convince Republican Congress-critters to vote for bills Trump wants. He was heavily involved in the ACA repeal attempt, among other things.
What he's doing isn't very public because it's mostly behind closed doors with Republican Senators, etc.
Trump also promised to "lock her up". So if we're following Trump's example we should also run on lock him up.
The last two VPs have been abberantly active, so it's more of a reversion to the mean than anything else.
Pence has been busy doing a lot of stuff that doesn't garner a lot of big media attention, like visiting the area of the massive flood disasters in Nebraska, traveling around central/south America to bolster support for the opposition in Venezuela, campaigning for various Republicans, and pretty constantly attending big "faith" events.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
It is absolutely not a statement of fact, as we saw with the Republican senators voting to overturn Trump's Emergency Powers.
The only statement of fact here is that Trump will not be impeached if impeachment never starts. I would certainly agree that it is very unlikely that Trump will be impeached if proceeding start now, but it is possible.
I think that since January 20th of this year, Democrats have had both a moral and ethical responsibility to impeach the president. We know that he's been involved in many felony crimes and that his continuing time in office is literally killing people. Would you tell someone stuck in one of Trumps detention camps or someone who is being denied necessary government care due to Trumps redefinition of poverty levels that they should be patient because realpolitik?
The realpolitik situation is that the Democratic party cannot directly stop the Republicans. This means we have to use indirect means, such as the media, to undermine the Republicans. Someone stated earlier in the thread that impeachment would essentially cut-off all other messaging from the Democrats. And while this is true, I think the current messaging is ineffective, and we should keep in mind that it will also cut off Republican messaging.
I've been waiting for two years on the current investigation, and now you're telling me I should wait for another year and a half? And you think voters won't recognize that if impeachment and/or releases happen in an election year, it's because it is meant to affect the election?
If we impeach now and it fails the Senate, then Democrats messaging from the date of failure until the election day should be "Look at how corrupt our system has become. Vote out these clowns."
You're putting realpolitik ahead of the ethical and moral concerns, then stating that nobody has successfully demonstrated that there are ethical and moral concerns. I've seen you call many others on this forum when they've tried this type of argument. I expected better of you.
Honestly not sure why I should bother voting if the leadership is just going to turn a blind eye to flagrant criminality out of political concern for a handful of districts.
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Because impeachment is, ultimately, a political process, not a legal one. The Republicans will never vote to impeach or to remove their own president - they know that doing so will cut their own throats. And knowing that, what are you going to accomplish with impeachment proceedings?
Note well, this fucking sucks. But as long as the GOP puts their own well-being before the country, this is the problem.
Impeachment will not remove him - the GOP has made sure of that. An election can.
People not voting is how we got into this mess
Because people not voting is how we got in to this situation in the first place.
Not voting is why we are in this mess!
Edit: Wow, beaten multiple times.
Doesn't matter. I often argue for political expediency, but not this time.
If Donald Trump is not impeached, we are accepting that the president is above the law. If he's not removed, that's on the GOP Senators and may they burn in hell. But force them to make the fucking decision.
But if they don’t I’m still volunteering and voting in 2020.
If we remove him we can save the country another 4 years of corrupt bullshit
So the "it takes a long time, we're close enough to election" excuse that I helped push up until now is a huge load of shit. What then is the reason why this isn't "worthwhile"? Don't tell me 5th Dimensional Chess bullshit because it is exactly that and any politician who claims it truly does not give a damn about the country.
Technically he can be impeached and still run. Go figure.
The higher up Dems if they aren't going to impeach ought to be clearer as to why. I can get the calculus but I shouldn't have to. Put it on McConnell and hang his ass around every GOPers neck like they try with Pelosi.
Unless the election is next fucking week, it's a garbage excuse.
Look what being impeached and acquitted did for Clinton's approval ratings. That's what they are scared of happening.
Force them to take the vote and defend it.
Even if the outcome is "nope, he stays," having the fight is important because it is right and necessary thing to do.
Because impeachment is a political process, even though it has the trappings of a legal one. In fact, the fact that it is wrapped in the garb of the law is what makes it so problematic - because how do you think the Senate voting party line not to remove will be framed?
Because I can tell you - exoneration.
Sometimes you have to do what's right and fuck the fucking New York Times' spin.
I still don’t think the senate convicts, but the electoral risk to Dems is significantly reduced as of this morning.
Everyone is going to walk right up to that line and then never cross it, hoping to make it someone elses problem. Dems wanted to make it Mueller's, Mueller made it Congresses problem, and Congress is going to make it the voters problem. And none of them will fail to claim credit from whoever actually fixes it.
So instead I should vote for people who are demonstrably useless and unwilling to even attempt to make people answer for their crimes because protecting a couple of vulnerable house districts and Joe (Fuckin') Manchin is more important?
I would posit that this is a distinction without difference. Democratic leadership doesn't care, and everyone else is unwilling or unable to put someone in place who will.
Maybe the investigation itself was unfair, but that wasn't Bill Clinton's call and he was blatantly guilty of obstruction of justice. That didn't stop his impeachment from shooting his approval up 20 points.
His party isn't going to abandon him, for a number of reasons. Which changes the calculus.
I think comparing going after Trump to what Clinton was liable for is misleading. For all his sins Clinton never had the liability Trump does.