It's completely possible that they make a good game out of what they have. I was....just excited to play a Bloodlines game where the series actually had a present and a future. I know it's ultimately silly, but that was exciting! Troika was dead when Bloodlines hit the shelves -- it was a great game but had a bittersweet tinge knowing that the developers involved were out of a job, and that the game I loved was a total commercial failure. Now the best case scenario appears to be the same thing -- they cobble it together, make a game I really enjoy, but the people tying it to the first game are already out of work, and regardless of success or failure will not be involved in the project going forward.
Take it with a grain of salt, but here's the aforementioned Paradox posting:
The good news is, it sounds like they're not scrapping Brian's work. The bad news is, how's it going to end up?
Still really weird. I mean, Bloodstained ended up in development hell and they had to bring in an outside team to finish it, but they didn’t fire Iga.
It sounds like someone may have just made the decision to basically say “your part of the work is done here, byebye”. Which really brings up a lot of questions about how well they know the market, the original guys are tied up in the worth of the ip.
They already have a very clear narrative path set up, I really can't imagine what they're going to do to it this late in the game.
And I sure hope he's still being credited.
The Konami way.
Taking out people who left the company is a very Japanese thing to do, I don't know if that happens as much with western games.
0
Options
ThePantsAssociationA million could-be years on a thousand may-be worldsRegistered Userregular
With the game at such a late stage (and apparently not being behavioral issues), I wonder if the reason was a disagreement over compromises to get the game past the goal line.
With the game at such a late stage (and apparently not being behavioral issues), I wonder if the reason was a disagreement over compromises to get the game past the goal line.
Yeah, or maybe its a Blade Runner situation where the actual creative people are happy with the product as is but paradox isn’t for whatever reason. Mitsoda said he wasn’t a part of the decision to delay the game, which implies maybe he didn’t see the need for a delay for polish/reworking/etc but someone higher up did.
Again this doesn’t really inspire confidence in the project, though.
Gut feeling is that the dev studio made the call for whatever reason they had and Paradox is simply backing it up. The way other studios under Paradox work- especially their in-house studio- doesn't jive with this being a case of a publisher being a medling asshole.
They already have a very clear narrative path set up, I really can't imagine what they're going to do to it this late in the game.
And I sure hope he's still being credited.
The Konami way.
Taking out people who left the company is a very Japanese thing to do, I don't know if that happens as much with western games.
Yes. Yes it does.
Paradox has not been the sort of company that is known for things like that, however, and they did recognize a worker's union not so long ago.
Most famous example I can think of is when a group of employees left 3D Realms, in the middle of development of the Duke Nukem 3D expansion, to go form what would later become Ritual Entertainment. In retaliation, 3D Realms stripped them from the credits on the game, even though their work was all over it. (I recall Richard "Levellord" Grey being angry that they included one of his levels, with minor changes, and credited the entire level to the person who made the changes.)
This has definitely pushed the game into "troubled development" territory. I'm not going to cancel my pre-order, because there isn't a universe where I don't play Bloodlines 2, but it seems like a really curious and bizarre situation.
Heh damn, I forgot that I dropped $90 on the full thing with all of the future DLC pre-purchased too. I've never done that -- I can't remember the last time I've preordered something at all -- buuut yeah, cancelled. They really need to do some messaging damage control soon, because silence isn't a great look.
If Bloodlines 2 was initially announced as a game by Hardsuit Labs, with no other context, I would have been incredibly skeptical. Who the hell are Hardsuit Labs? But having Mitsoda along made them feel like a friend of a friend -- this guy who did a thing I loved trusted you, so I'll give you some trust. Here's hoping we get a good game, but we're back to "Who the hell are these guys and what right do they have to make a game called Bloodlines 2?" until proven otherwise.
This along with BG3 and 2077 comprised the only three games I was looking forward to. I'm not writing the game off, but this ominous maneuver really kneecaps the hype.
Damn, I’m super bummed about this. I just hope that they don’t scrap his work in the process. I know they say they aren’t going to, but it’s hard to trust now.
Neco on
0
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Damn, I’m super bummed about this. I just hope that they don’t scrap his work in the process. I know they say they aren’t going to, but it’s hard to trust now.
I mean, the game is in the finishing stages, and as head writer, his work basically is the game.
+10
Options
UnluckyThat's not meant to happenRegistered Userregular
Honestly with all the reporting going on for the internals of game development over the last ten years(see; Bioware), I am astonished anytime a project with more than ten people can get finished in the video game world.
Still, this has definitely put me in the 'Watch reviews and judge' rather than 'day one buy' crowd.
I don't know enough about Mitsoda to perform a real opinion about what may or may not be happening behind the scenes. I know that aside from Bloodlines, Mitsoda has worked for several other companies and started his own, and really isn't known for anything other than his work on Bloodlines. He also hasn't had a lot of full creative control on the projects he's been a part of I believe.
Something like Bloodlines 2 shouldn't take that long to produce, it's not or at least shouldn't be handled like a AAA game. My guess for now is either that the people making the game had creative differences with the two members, enough to let them go at this critical stage. Or that the two were the actual cause of the delays, and were removed to try and guarantee that it was the last one.
Hopefully more comes out later, and hopefully Mitsoda bounces back from this. But it sounded like he wasn't comfortable in the role given to him, and he tried his best, and in the end Paradox maybe decided putting him in that role was a mistake. But... the way it was handled was obviously subpar.
I don't know enough about Mitsoda to perform a real opinion about what may or may not be happening behind the scenes. I know that aside from Bloodlines, Mitsoda has worked for several other companies and started his own, and really isn't known for anything other than his work on Bloodlines. He also hasn't had a lot of full creative control on the projects he's been a part of I believe.
Something like Bloodlines 2 shouldn't take that long to produce, it's not or at least shouldn't be handled like a AAA game. My guess for now is either that the people making the game had creative differences with the two members, enough to let them go at this critical stage. Or that the two were the actual cause of the delays, and were removed to try and guarantee that it was the last one.
Hopefully more comes out later, and hopefully Mitsoda bounces back from this. But it sounded like he wasn't comfortable in the role given to him, and he tried his best, and in the end Paradox maybe decided putting him in that role was a mistake. But... the way it was handled was obviously subpar.
The majority of his work post Bloodlines 1 was on Dead State, a game that he created made by a studio he founded that he had full creative control over (the two lead designers and writers are Brian Mitsoda and Annie Mitsoda). That part's not accurate at all. The "full creative control" term is a bit nebulous too -- I don't know that I've seen anything to suggest he had more/less control over Bloodlines 2 than he did 1. He was lead designer and the main story writer for Bloodlines 1; for Bloodlines 2 he was the "narrative lead" who appeared to be working alongside a separate creative director who was also fired. Going from job title alone, he may have had slightly less influence on Bloodlines 2 than 1 just because he didn't seem to be as involved in the game design side.
The other stuff is entirely speculation, and could be true! But with Paradox not saying anything, and Mitsoda giving a lengthy detailed statement and his history of making things I like, he gets my benefit of a doubt for now. His history does suggest that he's probably not an ultra efficient lead developer -- we know what Bloodlines 1 was like at release, and Dead State had a fairly long development time and was fairly buggy until the end (it was a very small studio to be fair) -- but he wasn't in that role for Bloodlines 2, so it's a bit puzzling all around.
VNs just do nothing for me. If I'm going to read a book, I'd rather read an actual book.
Not a fan of RPGs?
That isn't the same thing at all. RPGs have actual gameplay.
Edit: And to be clear, I'm not saying visual novels are bad. I'm just saying they aren't for me.
The biggest thing people complain about in RPGs are choices and consequences. VN are C&C in distilled form.
I used to be all "VNs aren't really games," but, like the Phoenix Wright series are visual novels. So are the Danganronpa series, Monster Prom, Zero Escape, Doki Doki Literature Club, Long Live the Queen, Magical Diary, The Yawhg. I'd argue that Tales from the Borderlands, the Walking Dead games, and A Wolf Among Us are VNs as well.
There are visual novels with branching paths and visual novels that are basically literally a "visual novel" with one path start to finish. Not all of them have choice or consequence, just a story you're reading.
I don't know where these ones fall on that spectrum but the genre is what made me decide to give them a pass as well.
There are visual novels with branching paths and visual novels that are basically literally a "visual novel" with one path start to finish. Not all of them have choice or consequence, just a story you're reading.
I don't know where these ones fall on that spectrum but the genre is what made me decide to give them a pass as well.
They're called 'kinetic' VNs. An example would be the (Very Good) Planetarian. Umineko and Higurashi largely fall under that category too.
Ones with lots of choices and multiple endings are more the norm, like Fate Stay/Night, House in Fata Morgana, Shadows/Coteries, etc.
Posts
The good news is, it sounds like they're not scrapping Brian's work. The bad news is, how's it going to end up?
Still really weird. I mean, Bloodstained ended up in development hell and they had to bring in an outside team to finish it, but they didn’t fire Iga.
It sounds like someone may have just made the decision to basically say “your part of the work is done here, byebye”. Which really brings up a lot of questions about how well they know the market, the original guys are tied up in the worth of the ip.
I also hadn't heard about Paradox being shitty to work with before. :bigfrown:
The Konami way.
Taking out people who left the company is a very Japanese thing to do, I don't know if that happens as much with western games.
Yeah, or maybe its a Blade Runner situation where the actual creative people are happy with the product as is but paradox isn’t for whatever reason. Mitsoda said he wasn’t a part of the decision to delay the game, which implies maybe he didn’t see the need for a delay for polish/reworking/etc but someone higher up did.
Again this doesn’t really inspire confidence in the project, though.
Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines 2: Seasons 6 and 7 of Game of Thrones
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Yes. Yes it does.
Paradox has not been the sort of company that is known for things like that, however, and they did recognize a worker's union not so long ago.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Most famous example I can think of is when a group of employees left 3D Realms, in the middle of development of the Duke Nukem 3D expansion, to go form what would later become Ritual Entertainment. In retaliation, 3D Realms stripped them from the credits on the game, even though their work was all over it. (I recall Richard "Levellord" Grey being angry that they included one of his levels, with minor changes, and credited the entire level to the person who made the changes.)
I hope it turns out good, still! Expectations are uh, a lot lower than they used to be though.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
If Bloodlines 2 was initially announced as a game by Hardsuit Labs, with no other context, I would have been incredibly skeptical. Who the hell are Hardsuit Labs? But having Mitsoda along made them feel like a friend of a friend -- this guy who did a thing I loved trusted you, so I'll give you some trust. Here's hoping we get a good game, but we're back to "Who the hell are these guys and what right do they have to make a game called Bloodlines 2?" until proven otherwise.
I mean, the game is in the finishing stages, and as head writer, his work basically is the game.
Still, this has definitely put me in the 'Watch reviews and judge' rather than 'day one buy' crowd.
Something like Bloodlines 2 shouldn't take that long to produce, it's not or at least shouldn't be handled like a AAA game. My guess for now is either that the people making the game had creative differences with the two members, enough to let them go at this critical stage. Or that the two were the actual cause of the delays, and were removed to try and guarantee that it was the last one.
Hopefully more comes out later, and hopefully Mitsoda bounces back from this. But it sounded like he wasn't comfortable in the role given to him, and he tried his best, and in the end Paradox maybe decided putting him in that role was a mistake. But... the way it was handled was obviously subpar.
The majority of his work post Bloodlines 1 was on Dead State, a game that he created made by a studio he founded that he had full creative control over (the two lead designers and writers are Brian Mitsoda and Annie Mitsoda). That part's not accurate at all. The "full creative control" term is a bit nebulous too -- I don't know that I've seen anything to suggest he had more/less control over Bloodlines 2 than he did 1. He was lead designer and the main story writer for Bloodlines 1; for Bloodlines 2 he was the "narrative lead" who appeared to be working alongside a separate creative director who was also fired. Going from job title alone, he may have had slightly less influence on Bloodlines 2 than 1 just because he didn't seem to be as involved in the game design side.
The other stuff is entirely speculation, and could be true! But with Paradox not saying anything, and Mitsoda giving a lengthy detailed statement and his history of making things I like, he gets my benefit of a doubt for now. His history does suggest that he's probably not an ultra efficient lead developer -- we know what Bloodlines 1 was like at release, and Dead State had a fairly long development time and was fairly buggy until the end (it was a very small studio to be fair) -- but he wasn't in that role for Bloodlines 2, so it's a bit puzzling all around.
I enjoyed Coteries well enough so I'll probably pick this up some time.
Does Iga even have a boss?
So it's not DLC, a whole separate game?
Guess so!
I'll give it a go shortly, the protagonist looks a lot more fleshed out than the one(s) in Coteries.
Yeah, looks like a continuation of the previous story but in a separate game.
I'm guessing this is part of the current lore where being a Lasombra in Cam territory isn't a gigantic death sentence like in the original.
I feel like the writers must have been doing other stuff, they're too good to have come from nowhere.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
That isn't the same thing at all. RPGs have actual gameplay.
Edit: And to be clear, I'm not saying visual novels are bad. I'm just saying they aren't for me.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
I used to be all "VNs aren't really games," but, like the Phoenix Wright series are visual novels. So are the Danganronpa series, Monster Prom, Zero Escape, Doki Doki Literature Club, Long Live the Queen, Magical Diary, The Yawhg. I'd argue that Tales from the Borderlands, the Walking Dead games, and A Wolf Among Us are VNs as well.
What is gameplay but making choices?
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
I don't know where these ones fall on that spectrum but the genre is what made me decide to give them a pass as well.
Not sure how much it'll affect things, but hey.
They're called 'kinetic' VNs. An example would be the (Very Good) Planetarian. Umineko and Higurashi largely fall under that category too.
Ones with lots of choices and multiple endings are more the norm, like Fate Stay/Night, House in Fata Morgana, Shadows/Coteries, etc.