You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.
There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.
That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.
And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.
Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.
Even the most awesome writing would feel incredibly rushed for that to have a satisfying ending.
Instead, it's gonna be Jon being forced into it. Or Dany wins, and rules over ashes. Anyone who cared about Dany being completely unsatisfied.
They had as long as they wanted, they wanted 70 minutes
Good thing it turned out she didnt need half her forces.
Or a quarter.
Or any of her forces.
She could have taken by herself in a morning run to Starbucks
Anyone that's played Advance Wars knows you still need to have infantry to capture cities by stomping on them.
More seriously, I don't think any of the strategists could really plan for what Drogon would do to the city because none of them had actually seen what a dragon could do to a city including Daenerys. They were expecting to have to do a more traditional siege with some suggesting just starving out the city until the people surrendered and opened the gates.
They also couldn't have accounted for the low morale of their opponents. The Lannister forces are mostly non-nobles drawn from the families huddled in the city who've traded stories of the dragon attack on the supply train. The Golden Company are fresher and (in theory) more experienced troops but they're mercenaries. They fight for money and have little incentive to go down fighting once their morale starts cracking. But the protagonists had just finished fighting a force that has no real morale to speak of that had much less reason to fear dragons even if they could.
I think it only seems too easy because we saw Rhaegal go down like a chump to aimhacked ship guns last episode. This was in line with what we've seen the dragons do to the loot train and the Masters previously.
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
One of the funniest things about these last few episodes is how moot it renders so much of Season 7’s plotting.
Going north of the wall and losing Viserion, parleying with Cersei for help in the North against the Night King, Cersei making an alliance with Euron, Yara getting captured and then freed, Arya’s list, Jaime’s climb from ignominy, and now possibly Jon bending the knee.
I think if it had played out over a longer run, Dany’s descent into madness would have been fascinating. The core of the turn is the irony: she knew she had these tendencies and tried to leaven them with her ties to people she met along the way in Essos. Then losing those people during her conquest is actually what sets her down that path.
Outside of the story being nonsense, I had mixed feelings about the battle itself. While the cinematography was amazing, the battle seemed really boring. There was no ebb or flow to it. Dany and Drogon basically took out all of Cersei's forces after all the building up by themselves.
Outside of the story being nonsense, I had mixed feelings about the battle itself. While the cinematography was amazing, the battle seemed really boring. There was no ebb or flow to it. Dany and Drogon basically took out all of Cersei's forces after all the building up by themselves.
The power levels were very much “whatever we need them to be this week.”
Wait till next week when Baelerion goes down like a chump now that he’s not needed anymore
I especially enjoyed how everyone’s been chewing at the bit for, what, 20 years now, for some crazy prophecy to come true. I thought we learned in season/book 2 that prophecies are bullshit. Everyone thinks the red comet is about them and that so and so in the prince that was whatever. There are no prophecies and everyone is an asshole. This is a tragedy for all the protagonists and there is no happy ending here for anyone except Hot Pie.
As for the episode. I still liked it.
Except for the horse. WTF was up with that?
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
When was the last time a movie or show depicted a really cool and maybe even sensible big battle? At the top of my head I'm thinking LotR and then kinda drawing a blank.
I especially enjoyed how everyone’s been chewing at the bit for, what, 20 years now, for some crazy prophecy to come true. I thought we learned in season/book 2 that prophecies are bullshit. Everyone thinks the red comet is about them and that so and so in the prince that was whatever. There are no prophecies and everyone is an asshole. This is a tragedy for all the protagonists and there is no happy ending here for anyone except Hot Pie.
When was the last time a movie or show depicted a really cool and maybe even sensible big battle? At the top of my head I'm thinking LotR and then kinda drawing a blank.
Blackwater Bay was the peak of the show and one of the best episodes of television ever
When was the last time a movie or show depicted a really cool and maybe even sensible big battle? At the top of my head I'm thinking LotR and then kinda drawing a blank.
GoT itself had some good to great battle scenes in previous seasons. Blackwater Bay, Harrenhold and the Battle of the Bastards being the standouts.
When was the last time a movie or show depicted a really cool and maybe even sensible big battle? At the top of my head I'm thinking LotR and then kinda drawing a blank.
Infinity War had a little battle that looked cool with all the aliens attacking Wakanda.
When was the last time a movie or show depicted a really cool and maybe even sensible big battle? At the top of my head I'm thinking LotR and then kinda drawing a blank.
GoT itself had some good to great battle scenes in previous seasons. Blackwater Bay, Harrenhold and the Battle of the Bastards being the standouts.
Yeah, Battle of the Bastards really feels like it's among the best, if not the best battle committed to film.
My question is why couldn't this be done last season. Mad Queen Dany versus the dead would of been interesting. It's like they needed Dany's forces so her versus Cersei would be interesting but then decided to make it a stomp anyways.
I think if it had played out over a longer run, Dany’s descent into madness would have been fascinating. The core of the turn is the irony: she knew she had these tendencies and tried to leaven them with her ties to people she met along the way in Essos. Then losing those people during her conquest is actually what sets her down that path.
If done well, I guess it could have been interesting. I just find the "like father, like daughter" stuff boring. Oh look, she's crazy just like her dad!
I personally would have preferred Cersei going mad instead. From a series perspective, you have more evidence that it could happen (maybe her child miscarried or something). It also sets up for better possible character moments from other characters. I'd have rather Dany's natural temperament be the cause for tension between her and the Westerosi lords. Another reason putting the NK battle last would have helped. She wins the throne but now needs the support of all the other lords. She has to do some Magna Carta stuff to get them on board to fight the dead.
I was bothered by the fact that Jaime didn't know a secret entrance into the Red Keep beyond the one Tyrion mentioned. One would think that being part of the Kingsguard would create an intimate knowledge of all potential entrances and exits. Also I imagine sneaking around to fuck your sister would involve some creativity on finding privacy.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It is possible that, given two full length seasons, they could have made Dany's character adjustment feel natural and not have total tonal whiplash.
But given the writing of the past two seasons uh...
My hopes wouldn't be high.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
If Nymeria appears out of nowhere with her Wolfpack to distract/kill Drogon while Arya makes the kill...it won’t salvage the series, but I will be slightly less disappointed.
Black lives matter.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I know the two showrunner doofuses hate magic with a passion but, like
Would it have killed them to have someone warging into a fucking dragon?
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Dany "I'm not here to be queen of the ashes" Targaryen....
"No but don't you seeeeee, that's the irony! Aren't we so clever? She's just the mad king all over again! Genetics is destiny!"
I'm trying to figure out, now, what the message of the show is. I used to think it was that our petty squabbles aren't important - that arguing about who gets to sit on a chair isn't important in the end, not when there's this huge looming threat to all life that's been building for the entire series. That maybe this can say something about humanity...
And then the NK gets aced in one battle and oh I guess that problem's solved.
Okay, it wouldn't be as appropriate or satisfying, but maybe the message will be that what we were born as doesn't matter. Stark, Targ, Lannister - that our genes don't determine our destiny. That we can rise up to become better people, that the influence of those around us, even if they're not our blood family, shapes us more than that...
Oops I guess that's not true, either.
Uhm... "Shit sucks, people suck, history repeats no matter how much you try to change it because they suck, so agency means nothing"? I guess?
I suppose for most people, the final aftershow will tell them what they're supposed to feel. I guess.
There’s something I found fascinating as I started re-reading the series.This is a book spoiler only in that it happens in the prologue of the first book and hasn’t come up since, so I think it’s alright to leave it in the open.
The Others/White Walkers talk to each other. More, they laugh.
Maybe GRRM also decided he didn’t like that idea, but I think it’s a difference between book and show that’s ultimately very telling. Enemies who can talk and do talk are generally more interesting and complicated than a silent evil threat of completely unknown motivations. The latter might ultimately be what the story needs for the undead army, but it seems like everybody who is deemed a villain eventually stops talking about why they’re doing what they’re doing.
Maybe Arya is actually died in that last explosion, and the scene was just an artistic representation of her coming to peace with death, and riding out to meet him. <.< >.> Why are you looking at me like that? ;-)
As others have said, I totally buy that Martin's ending was that Dany goes all Mad Targ, burns the city, and becomes a new Tyrant, its just the way that it was conveyed was just bleh. As some others have said on this thread, I think a much better way was not for her to go "BURN THEM ALL" with some ringing of the bells, but to do something at least partly defensible but still horrific, like burning down the Red Keep. Still thousands will die, its still shows that Dany is willing to sacrifice innocents, but it provides her with a fig leaf of "I did it so that the battle will end quicker and net save lives" (mirroring the U.S.'s excuses for bombing Japan in WW2). Jon and Co can (and should!) be appalled by the move, but still be a open question about how well she'll be a ruler going forward.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
I honestly thought Dany has had a very dark streak to her the moment she used fire and blood magic to get three dragons while also getting revenge against the woman that took her husband and child.
Interestingly (to me at least) Dany’s justification for burning the city is pretty much the same as the witch from season 1. The witch’s justification is that the stallion that mounts the world will lead to much death, now he will burn no cities. Dany uses the same logic in the beginning to justify why she wanted to burn kings landing, we have to kill them to save the future.
I mean, she’s been wanting to burn that fucking place since the very beginning of season 7, it’s not like it came from nowhere. Only her advisers talked her out of it. Except now she trusts none of them cause they’ve been wrong about pretty much everything and then betrayed her. She has lost all but one of her children, her besties are dead, her lover doesn’t wanna fuck, she trusts nobody, everyone’s doubting her, traitors are everywhere, and there’s this fucking city just sitting there, thinking she’s gonna let her guard down again.
You push that renegade button Dany! Not saying I agree with her, but I understand.
Fuck kings landing.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Maybe Arya is actually died in that last explosion, and the scene was just an artistic representation of her coming to peace with death, and riding out to meet him. <.< >.> Why are you looking at me like that? ;-)
As others have said, I totally buy that Martin's ending was that Dany goes all Mad Targ, burns the city, and becomes a new Tyrant, its just the way that it was conveyed was just bleh. As some others have said on this thread, I think a much better way was not for her to go "BURN THEM ALL" with some ringing of the bells, but to do something at least partly defensible but still horrific, like burning down the Red Keep. Still thousands will die, its still shows that Dany is willing to sacrifice innocents, but it provides her with a fig leaf of "I did it so that the battle will end quicker and net save lives" (mirroring the U.S.'s excuses for bombing Japan in WW2). Jon and Co can (and should!) be appalled by the move, but still be a open question about how well she'll be a ruler going forward.
Yeah maybe this is what GRRM was going to do, but the show was not in a position to pull it off. They should have scaled it down to destruction of the red keep. I can buy that Dany would do that even after a surrender if she's in a bad enough mood, and I can buy Jon turning on her over just that.
Dany "I'm not here to be queen of the ashes" Targaryen....
"No but don't you seeeeee, that's the irony! Aren't we so clever? She's just the mad king all over again! Genetics is destiny!"
I'm trying to figure out, now, what the message of the show is. I used to think it was that our petty squabbles aren't important - that arguing about who gets to sit on a chair isn't important in the end, not when there's this huge looming threat to all life that's been building for the entire series. That maybe this can say something about humanity...
And then the NK gets aced in one battle and oh I guess that problem's solved.
Okay, it wouldn't be as appropriate or satisfying, but maybe the message will be that what we were born as doesn't matter. Stark, Targ, Lannister - that our genes don't determine our destiny. That we can rise up to become better people, that the influence of those around us, even if they're not our blood family, shapes us more than that...
Oops I guess that's not true, either.
Uhm... "Shit sucks, people suck, history repeats no matter how much you try to change it because they suck, so agency means nothing"? I guess?
I suppose for most people, the final aftershow will tell them what they're supposed to feel. I guess.
The lust for power and a willingness to use violence is bad no matter what you do with it
Or monarchy is bad maybe
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Being so in love with subverting expectations, youd think that with how thick they laid on the mad queen at the episode intro, they do do, you know, something unexpected
The only real difference between burning King's Landing and burning the Masters or whatever is in feeling justified to do it.
She's been burning people alive from the start of the show. That's the whole thing, she's always been a tyrant, she's just had less sympathetic targets until now.
I think if it had played out over a longer run, Dany’s descent into madness would have been fascinating. The core of the turn is the irony: she knew she had these tendencies and tried to leaven them with her ties to people she met along the way in Essos. Then losing those people during her conquest is actually what sets her down that path.
If done well, I guess it could have been interesting. I just find the "like father, like daughter" stuff boring. Oh look, she's crazy just like her dad!
I personally would have preferred Cersei going mad instead. From a series perspective, you have more evidence that it could happen (maybe her child miscarried or something). It also sets up for better possible character moments from other characters. I'd have rather Dany's natural temperament be the cause for tension between her and the Westerosi lords. Another reason putting the NK battle last would have helped. She wins the throne but now needs the support of all the other lords. She has to do some Magna Carta stuff to get them on board to fight the dead.
Hell, thinking about just this episode. Keep all the crappy writing for the last 2 seasons. If they had cut the "Dany looking "mad"" scene's with Tyrion and instead had scene where Cersei is talking with Qyburn and the alchemists guild leader around "preparations". Then have Dany/Drogon wipe the Iron Fleet and start working on the Scorpions. Have the gold company getting routed by the North and Dany's forces. You could show scene's of Lannister troops dropping weapons and running (screw fighting a dragon and all that). Cersei heads to the basement of the red keep where we see a ton of wildfire stockpiled. Then you get Jaime showing up, knowing what Cersei might do. He has to make the choice of killing his sister, lover, and child or again saving the city full of people that don't care about him (pulling back lines from early seasons around stopping the mad king and none one would know or thank him for it). Throw in a better cleganebowl fight where the Hound has to face his fear of fire to overcome his brother. Don't even bother with Arya and the random people on the street. Have her show up next episode.
I think I'd have probably enjoyed the episode a lot more and would have at least fit better with what they've given us so far.
The only real difference between burning King's Landing and burning the Masters or whatever is in feeling justified to do it.
She's been burning people alive from the start of the show. That's the whole thing, she's always been a tyrant, she's just had less sympathetic targets until now.
Also proportionality. Using a flamethrower against enemy troops in a fortified location (the Masters) is terrible, but understandable. Firebombing Dresden (everything in King's Landing, probably including some of her own forces) is just terrible. Doing it after you've already won is also just...a head scratcher.
The only real difference between burning King's Landing and burning the Masters or whatever is in feeling justified to do it.
She's been burning people alive from the start of the show. That's the whole thing, she's always been a tyrant, she's just had less sympathetic targets until now.
Also proportionality. Using a flamethrower against enemy troops in a fortified location (the Masters) is terrible, but understandable. Firebombing Dresden (everything in King's Landing, probably including some of her own forces) is just terrible. Doing it after you've already won is also just...a head scratcher.
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And he interspersed every action with reminders that he would do anything to always come back to Cersei
Seeing the sheer power of dragon fire inspires his kid to go on and open a store selling propane and propane accessories.
They had as long as they wanted, they wanted 70 minutes
Anyone that's played Advance Wars knows you still need to have infantry to capture cities by stomping on them.
More seriously, I don't think any of the strategists could really plan for what Drogon would do to the city because none of them had actually seen what a dragon could do to a city including Daenerys. They were expecting to have to do a more traditional siege with some suggesting just starving out the city until the people surrendered and opened the gates.
They also couldn't have accounted for the low morale of their opponents. The Lannister forces are mostly non-nobles drawn from the families huddled in the city who've traded stories of the dragon attack on the supply train. The Golden Company are fresher and (in theory) more experienced troops but they're mercenaries. They fight for money and have little incentive to go down fighting once their morale starts cracking. But the protagonists had just finished fighting a force that has no real morale to speak of that had much less reason to fear dragons even if they could.
I think it only seems too easy because we saw Rhaegal go down like a chump to aimhacked ship guns last episode. This was in line with what we've seen the dragons do to the loot train and the Masters previously.
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Going north of the wall and losing Viserion, parleying with Cersei for help in the North against the Night King, Cersei making an alliance with Euron, Yara getting captured and then freed, Arya’s list, Jaime’s climb from ignominy, and now possibly Jon bending the knee.
Just . . . whoosh
The power levels were very much “whatever we need them to be this week.”
Wait till next week when Baelerion goes down like a chump now that he’s not needed anymore
I especially enjoyed how everyone’s been chewing at the bit for, what, 20 years now, for some crazy prophecy to come true. I thought we learned in season/book 2 that prophecies are bullshit. Everyone thinks the red comet is about them and that so and so in the prince that was whatever. There are no prophecies and everyone is an asshole. This is a tragedy for all the protagonists and there is no happy ending here for anyone except Hot Pie.
As for the episode. I still liked it.
Except for the horse. WTF was up with that?
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Except for the whole I am abandoning you because I choose to fight for the living thing
Just anything to set her off really.
Blackwater Bay was the peak of the show and one of the best episodes of television ever
Speculation:
It got stabbed
GoT itself had some good to great battle scenes in previous seasons. Blackwater Bay, Harrenhold and the Battle of the Bastards being the standouts.
Infinity War had a little battle that looked cool with all the aliens attacking Wakanda.
Yeah, Battle of the Bastards really feels like it's among the best, if not the best battle committed to film.
If done well, I guess it could have been interesting. I just find the "like father, like daughter" stuff boring. Oh look, she's crazy just like her dad!
I personally would have preferred Cersei going mad instead. From a series perspective, you have more evidence that it could happen (maybe her child miscarried or something). It also sets up for better possible character moments from other characters. I'd have rather Dany's natural temperament be the cause for tension between her and the Westerosi lords. Another reason putting the NK battle last would have helped. She wins the throne but now needs the support of all the other lords. She has to do some Magna Carta stuff to get them on board to fight the dead.
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But given the writing of the past two seasons uh...
My hopes wouldn't be high.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
Would it have killed them to have someone warging into a fucking dragon?
well the Night King offered them as much winter as they wanted but they felt that shortening the season would be for the best.
"No but don't you seeeeee, that's the irony! Aren't we so clever? She's just the mad king all over again! Genetics is destiny!"
I'm trying to figure out, now, what the message of the show is. I used to think it was that our petty squabbles aren't important - that arguing about who gets to sit on a chair isn't important in the end, not when there's this huge looming threat to all life that's been building for the entire series. That maybe this can say something about humanity...
And then the NK gets aced in one battle and oh I guess that problem's solved.
Okay, it wouldn't be as appropriate or satisfying, but maybe the message will be that what we were born as doesn't matter. Stark, Targ, Lannister - that our genes don't determine our destiny. That we can rise up to become better people, that the influence of those around us, even if they're not our blood family, shapes us more than that...
Oops I guess that's not true, either.
Uhm... "Shit sucks, people suck, history repeats no matter how much you try to change it because they suck, so agency means nothing"? I guess?
I suppose for most people, the final aftershow will tell them what they're supposed to feel. I guess.
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Origin: ShogunGunshow
The Others/White Walkers talk to each other. More, they laugh.
Maybe GRRM also decided he didn’t like that idea, but I think it’s a difference between book and show that’s ultimately very telling. Enemies who can talk and do talk are generally more interesting and complicated than a silent evil threat of completely unknown motivations. The latter might ultimately be what the story needs for the undead army, but it seems like everybody who is deemed a villain eventually stops talking about why they’re doing what they’re doing.
As others have said, I totally buy that Martin's ending was that Dany goes all Mad Targ, burns the city, and becomes a new Tyrant, its just the way that it was conveyed was just bleh. As some others have said on this thread, I think a much better way was not for her to go "BURN THEM ALL" with some ringing of the bells, but to do something at least partly defensible but still horrific, like burning down the Red Keep. Still thousands will die, its still shows that Dany is willing to sacrifice innocents, but it provides her with a fig leaf of "I did it so that the battle will end quicker and net save lives" (mirroring the U.S.'s excuses for bombing Japan in WW2). Jon and Co can (and should!) be appalled by the move, but still be a open question about how well she'll be a ruler going forward.
Interestingly (to me at least) Dany’s justification for burning the city is pretty much the same as the witch from season 1. The witch’s justification is that the stallion that mounts the world will lead to much death, now he will burn no cities. Dany uses the same logic in the beginning to justify why she wanted to burn kings landing, we have to kill them to save the future.
I mean, she’s been wanting to burn that fucking place since the very beginning of season 7, it’s not like it came from nowhere. Only her advisers talked her out of it. Except now she trusts none of them cause they’ve been wrong about pretty much everything and then betrayed her. She has lost all but one of her children, her besties are dead, her lover doesn’t wanna fuck, she trusts nobody, everyone’s doubting her, traitors are everywhere, and there’s this fucking city just sitting there, thinking she’s gonna let her guard down again.
You push that renegade button Dany! Not saying I agree with her, but I understand.
Fuck kings landing.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yeah maybe this is what GRRM was going to do, but the show was not in a position to pull it off. They should have scaled it down to destruction of the red keep. I can buy that Dany would do that even after a surrender if she's in a bad enough mood, and I can buy Jon turning on her over just that.
The lust for power and a willingness to use violence is bad no matter what you do with it
Or monarchy is bad maybe
She's been burning people alive from the start of the show. That's the whole thing, she's always been a tyrant, she's just had less sympathetic targets until now.
Hell, thinking about just this episode. Keep all the crappy writing for the last 2 seasons. If they had cut the "Dany looking "mad"" scene's with Tyrion and instead had scene where Cersei is talking with Qyburn and the alchemists guild leader around "preparations". Then have Dany/Drogon wipe the Iron Fleet and start working on the Scorpions. Have the gold company getting routed by the North and Dany's forces. You could show scene's of Lannister troops dropping weapons and running (screw fighting a dragon and all that). Cersei heads to the basement of the red keep where we see a ton of wildfire stockpiled. Then you get Jaime showing up, knowing what Cersei might do. He has to make the choice of killing his sister, lover, and child or again saving the city full of people that don't care about him (pulling back lines from early seasons around stopping the mad king and none one would know or thank him for it). Throw in a better cleganebowl fight where the Hound has to face his fear of fire to overcome his brother. Don't even bother with Arya and the random people on the street. Have her show up next episode.
I think I'd have probably enjoyed the episode a lot more and would have at least fit better with what they've given us so far.
Also proportionality. Using a flamethrower against enemy troops in a fortified location (the Masters) is terrible, but understandable. Firebombing Dresden (everything in King's Landing, probably including some of her own forces) is just terrible. Doing it after you've already won is also just...a head scratcher.
With your own troops in the city no less.