Like, they went out of their way to open a season with a scene of girl Cersei getting the valonqar prophecy and 99% of it coming true and then pooped in our mouths for the last 1%
didn't the show version cut the valonqar bit though? so i guess the show runners decided a while ago that they weren't going that route.
We needed at least 3-4 episodes of Dany being isolated and alone after losing Missandei. Her seeing real (Varys, Sansa) plots and fake (Jon) plots against her at every turn. Each one turning her more paranoid and convinced that even if she does sit on the throne it will be pulled right out from underneath her. We needed more time of seeing her fall into that paranoia and belief that she could only rule with more fear, so that when she was sitting on that wall it made sense that she was thinking "This is not enough. Their surrender is not enough to stop the plots. I need more to secure my throne. The war is over and I will never have another chance to show it. I need to show them once and for all that they should truly fear me."
Instead we got all of that inferred between episodes 4 and 5. With like maybe 10 total minutes dedicated to summing it up at the beginning of 5. Thats not enough to show her descent into madness.
I think that trying to say she went crazy "because of the bells" or it doesn't make sense "because she had already won the battle" feel like they are mischaracterizing the situation to make it easier to criticize. She didn't burn the city because of either of those. She did it very clearly because she was trying to inspire fear. Maybe to get revenge on a people that supported Cersei. She knew she had already won the battle for KL. She was thinking about the battle for the Throne at that point. And everything leading up to that was telling her that winning KL wasn't enough to securely hold the throne. She didn't care about the bells, aside from maybe it reminding her that the bells didn't save her father.
I haven't been as invested in Dany and always saw this coming, so the poor execution of her fall doesn't sting as much as it should. But I'm sympathetic to people who are reacting emotionally to this poor characterization of a character they are invested in because the same thing happened to Luke in TLJ, imo. So I get it. Hopefully the books do a better job of showing how we get from season 5 Dany to season 7 Dany.
You've outlined a lot of character motivations and thoughts that are completely absent from what they wrote to appear on screen in this episode. In the episode,we know she knows the bells mean surrender as they made sure Tyrion mentioned it twice and they show the Bell tower as much as possible. The scene is, she's perched, the other army has surrendered, the bells ring, we see that she decides to kill most of KL with fire. There's no character interaction, there's nothing specific she sees, just bells ring, and that's it.
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
+17
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
Why is it a 6 episode only season anyway? What was the reason for only going with 6 episodes?
The show producers choose that, despite HBO wanting them to do more.
I keep hearing this but I have been unable to find anything supporting it
I also have a feeling that HBO gave them a fixed budget for the season, and if that makes 6 or 8 or 10 episodes, the budget isn't changing. HBO's cost model doesn't support that. So yeah maybe they wanted more, but HBO not wanting to pony up extra money fits their narrative.
"Yes. To their credit, they put their money where their mouths are — literally stuffed their mouth full of million-dollar bills which don’t exist anymore," Weiss said regarding previous comments that they had considered doing the final season as movies. "They said, 'We’ll give you the resources to make this what it needs to be, and if what it needs to be is a summer tentpole-size spectacle in places, then that’s what it will be.'"
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
Its strange to me. Book Jamie while trying to distance himself from Cersei did keep going back. Goes back to some show changes like the Joff funeral sex etc. They did mess up the inner struggle with the Brienne stuff but I just write it off to condensing.
One of the scenes that really got to me was the final interaction between him and Tyrion. Given that this interaction between them before the father slaying was one of my favorite and personally emotional scenes in the books. And I thought they nailed it with Tyrion in this episode.
Jubal77 on
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
We needed at least 3-4 episodes of Dany being isolated and alone after losing Missandei. Her seeing real (Varys, Sansa) plots and fake (Jon) plots against her at every turn. Each one turning her more paranoid and convinced that even if she does sit on the throne it will be pulled right out from underneath her. We needed more time of seeing her fall into that paranoia and belief that she could only rule with more fear, so that when she was sitting on that wall it made sense that she was thinking "This is not enough. Their surrender is not enough to stop the plots. I need more to secure my throne. The war is over and I will never have another chance to show it. I need to show them once and for all that they should truly fear me."
Instead we got all of that inferred between episodes 4 and 5. With like maybe 10 total minutes dedicated to summing it up at the beginning of 5. Thats not enough to show her descent into madness.
I think that trying to say she went crazy "because of the bells" or it doesn't make sense "because she had already won the battle" feel like they are mischaracterizing the situation to make it easier to criticize. She didn't burn the city because of either of those. She did it very clearly because she was trying to inspire fear. Maybe to get revenge on a people that supported Cersei. She knew she had already won the battle for KL. She was thinking about the battle for the Throne at that point. And everything leading up to that was telling her that winning KL wasn't enough to securely hold the throne. She didn't care about the bells, aside from maybe it reminding her that the bells didn't save her father.
I haven't been as invested in Dany and always saw this coming, so the poor execution of her fall doesn't sting as much as it should. But I'm sympathetic to people who are reacting emotionally to this poor characterization of a character they are invested in because the same thing happened to Luke in TLJ, imo. So I get it. Hopefully the books do a better job of showing how we get from season 5 Dany to season 7 Dany.
You've outlined a lot of character motivations and thoughts that are completely absent from what they wrote to appear on screen in this episode. In the episode,we know she knows the bells mean surrender as they made sure Tyrion mentioned it twice and they show the Bell tower as much as possible. The scene is, she's perched, the other army has surrendered, the bells ring, we see that she decides to kill most of KL with fire. There's no character interaction, there's nothing specific she sees, just bells ring, and that's it.
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
To me this was more of a sign of Tyrion’s respect for Varys, letting him know it was him who did it
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
That was a beautifully shot episode that did not have the narrative or character development necessary to make sense as a continuation of the story. And in the case of Jamie, basically undermined past development and narrative. (Also, why did that scene with Euron even exist? It didn't seem to contribute anything) It even had the stylistic elements that I was disappointed they abandoned in the Battle of Winterfell, and just was visually extremely well done. It's a shame, really. They could have put in the time for these past two seasons, or maybe even needing another one or two, in order to arrive here and have it be more evocative. I'm not even upset with her going mad queen, it's just that from the view of Season 6 they didn't get there from here.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
We needed at least 3-4 episodes of Dany being isolated and alone after losing Missandei. Her seeing real (Varys, Sansa) plots and fake (Jon) plots against her at every turn. Each one turning her more paranoid and convinced that even if she does sit on the throne it will be pulled right out from underneath her. We needed more time of seeing her fall into that paranoia and belief that she could only rule with more fear, so that when she was sitting on that wall it made sense that she was thinking "This is not enough. Their surrender is not enough to stop the plots. I need more to secure my throne. The war is over and I will never have another chance to show it. I need to show them once and for all that they should truly fear me."
Instead we got all of that inferred between episodes 4 and 5. With like maybe 10 total minutes dedicated to summing it up at the beginning of 5. Thats not enough to show her descent into madness.
I think that trying to say she went crazy "because of the bells" or it doesn't make sense "because she had already won the battle" feel like they are mischaracterizing the situation to make it easier to criticize. She didn't burn the city because of either of those. She did it very clearly because she was trying to inspire fear. Maybe to get revenge on a people that supported Cersei. She knew she had already won the battle for KL. She was thinking about the battle for the Throne at that point. And everything leading up to that was telling her that winning KL wasn't enough to securely hold the throne. She didn't care about the bells, aside from maybe it reminding her that the bells didn't save her father.
This is a whole lot of motivation that you have just made up of whole cloth here.
I disagree, we got that motivation in her scene with Tyrion and her scene with Jon. With Tyrion, she thought Jon had betrayed her (imagined), found out that Varys had betrayed her (real). She told us she knew the secret was out, that more and more people would discover that Jon had the better claim. Then in the scene with Jon, she tries one last time to get him to be with her. She wants to rule with love, but knows it can only happen with Jon literally at her side. Otherwise the plots will keep coming. He refuses, and she says "Let it be fear". There's her motivation. Declared out loud in the episode. She thinks she needs to rule by fear. And nothing that had been done up to that point was enough. She heard the bells. She knew what it meant. She decided to continue anyways. Obviously she didn't burn the city because she wasn't sure she had won the battle for KL yet. She knew she had won the battle. She burnt the city because she needed them to fear her. She needed Westeros to fear her.
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
Or varys knew exactly what danny was going to do to him and that tyrion would tell her and was willing to sacrifice his life to force Danny to show her true colors once and for all.
Not the people of the city. Everybody else in the 7 kingdoms. She basically single handedly sacked the biggest strongest fortification in the 7 kingdoms. The message being if I did this to kings landing what do you think I would be willing to do to anybody else who dares step out of line? That is ruling through fear.
It's more or less what Aegon did. Highgarden and the West fell in line after the Field of Fire, and the Riverlands gave up when he melted Harrenhall. The North bent the knee rather than be the next example.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
"Yes. To their credit, they put their money where their mouths are — literally stuffed their mouth full of million-dollar bills which don’t exist anymore," Weiss said regarding previous comments that they had considered doing the final season as movies. "They said, 'We’ll give you the resources to make this what it needs to be, and if what it needs to be is a summer tentpole-size spectacle in places, then that’s what it will be.'"
Thank you for pulling something out.
My question here is, if they did decide to do 2-3 more character driven low key episodes, why would that have put them behind on Star Wars?
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
None of the prophecies have come to light in very purposeful ways.
So yes if you want to you can read a whole bunch of stuff into the truncated scenes and character moments
But a sign of poor writing is that you have to do that on your own instead of the text showing you what's going on and why
Tha abandonment of "themes" really sticks out this season. Things just happen because that's what they think is cool or where the story should go. There's no purpose or message. It's very disappointing, and honestly somewhat insulting to the audience.
So It Goes on
+25
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Valonqar prophecy was never made in the show
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
That was a beautifully shot episode that did not have the narrative or character development necessary to make sense as a continuation of the story. And in the case of Jamie, basically undermined past development and narrative. (Also, why did that scene with Euron even exist? It didn't seem to contribute anything) It even had the stylistic elements that I was disappointed they abandoned in the Battle of Winterfell, and just was visually extremely well done. It's a shame, really. They could have put in the time for these past two seasons, or maybe even needing another one or two, in order to arrive here and have it be more evocative. I'm not even upset with her going mad queen, it's just that from the view of Season 6 they didn't get there from here.
Mostly agree except I thought the shots of Drogon burninating the scorpions mounted on the city walls were not good- technically, it was a little awkward, and none of the scorpions were pointed at him. The visuals thus contributed to the feeling that it was too easy for her to take them out, retroactively ruining some key parts of the prior episode.
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
Or varys knew exactly what danny was going to do to him and that tyrion would tell her and was willing to sacrifice his life to force Danny to show her true colors once and for all.
Why did Tyrion need to say "it was me" though?
How did executing a guy plotting against her reveal her true colors? Why did Varys choose now to deliberately get caught?
Not the people of the city. Everybody else in the 7 kingdoms. She basically single handedly sacked the biggest strongest fortification in the 7 kingdoms. The message being if I did this to kings landing what do you think I would be willing to do to anybody else who dares step out of line? That is ruling through fear.
It's more or less what Aegon did. Highgarden and the West fell in line after the Field of Fire, and the Riverlands gave up when he melted Harrenhall. The North bent the knee rather than be the next example.
It also short circuits any people trying to back Jon as the king due to his better claim. She is not claiming the 7 kingdoms based on blood she took it based on conquest. It is the I don't give a shit about how good you think my claim is if you do anything but exactly what I tell you I am going to reduce everything you love to cinders and there is nothing you can do to stop me.
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
they already cut that last part though. they went to trouble of filming the prophecy scene and chose not to include the part about the valonqar.
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
Or varys knew exactly what danny was going to do to him and that tyrion would tell her and was willing to sacrifice his life to force Danny to show her true colors once and for all.
And yet Jon and everyone else just stood around to watch Drogon roast him.
+2
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
they already cut that last part though. they went to trouble of filming the prophecy scene and chose not to include the part about the valonqar.
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
Or varys knew exactly what danny was going to do to him and that tyrion would tell her and was willing to sacrifice his life to force Danny to show her true colors once and for all.
Why did Tyrion need to say "it was me" though?
How did executing a guy plotting against her reveal her true colors? Why did Varys choose now to deliberately get caught?
the better option was actually suggested here a while back. have Varys stop Tyrion and ask him why(or something to that effect), in a mirror of Tyrion's trial. show that even at the end, even though their paths diverge they both still respect each other and the choices they've each made. that just as Varys did what he felt he needed to do to serve the realm, Tyrion to feels that he only has one option and that there is a mutual understanding of each others motivations.
Not the people of the city. Everybody else in the 7 kingdoms. She basically single handedly sacked the biggest strongest fortification in the 7 kingdoms. The message being if I did this to kings landing what do you think I would be willing to do to anybody else who dares step out of line? That is ruling through fear.
It's more or less what Aegon did. Highgarden and the West fell in line after the Field of Fire, and the Riverlands gave up when he melted Harrenhall. The North bent the knee rather than be the next example.
It also short circuits any people trying to back Jon as the king due to his better claim. She is not claiming the 7 kingdoms based on blood she took it based on conquest. It is the I don't give a shit about how good you think my claim is if you do anything but exactly what I tell you I am going to reduce everything you love to cinders and there is nothing you can do to stop me.
This is actually a cool and good and cunning thought, and I actually am interested in the story here, but they only have like 80 minutes left for it now
They pooped on everyone else so hard in the service of ending the show before their stories were over
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
they already cut that last part though. they went to trouble of filming the prophecy scene and chose not to include the part about the valonqar.
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
None of the prophecies have come to light in very purposeful ways.
I'm guessing in the books it'll be Jamie mercy killing Cersei after a rock falls on her.
"He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I’m disappointed the Dany turn was so abrupt that people say it was stupid rather try to rationalize it.
Honestly in a way it was worse than Anakin’s heel turn. At least Anakin thought the Jedi were attempting a coup and made the wrong choice as to what side to support, even if he went to “lets kill kids” way too quickly from there.
Dany had basically won, the city was surrendering, the enemy was defeated, and then she all the sudden is like “oh, I won, wait there are some kids over there lets burn those fuckers.”
When she took off I was sure the way this was going down was she was going after the Red Keep directly. Then they cut the shot and no actually she's just carving up the city for some reason.
She's making it personal, you see.
what does that mean what does any of this mean
Just ignore the post episode explanations. They aren’t real
Even without that, why does she burn the city before the keep
Why doesn't she go straight for her enemy and destroy her
Why is it the bells ringing out surrender that triggers this character decision instead of something like seeing that Tyrion has betrayed her
It doesn't flow or make sense to me. And then when you hear the dude that wrote this episode state her motivation in that moment was "to make it personal" well that makes even less sense!
I think this is maybe where people are having a disconnect on the discussion.
I don't think the bells are what triggered her decision. I think the bells are what caused her to have a decision to make at all. She lands, hears the bells that Tyrion begged her to honor and signify the end of the fighting. She then has a choice:
- Trust Tyrion (the advisor that has failed her multiple times) and trust that her current display of power will be enough to keep her on the throne (despite her telling us earlier in the episode that jon's secret will undermine her more and more)
OR
- Continue attacking. Get revenge on the populace that supported the woman that murdered her best friend. Get revenge on the populace that allowed her father and entire life to be taken from her. Show the rest of the continent that they must fear her and forget about Jon's secret.
She chose the second option. For many reasons all of which were outlined (much too briefly and truncated) in the episode. Like I said, the problem is that we needed at least a couple episodes of Dany falling into this mindset. Instead we got it offscreen between episodes and then it just "told" us this at the beginning of this episode.
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
they already cut that last part though. they went to trouble of filming the prophecy scene and chose not to include the part about the valonqar.
??? What...would even be the point of that scene? Without the prophecy?
it was used as background for Cersei's hatred and mistrust of Margaery. to show that it wasn't just a mother fearful of losing her son(s) to another woman, but that this younger Queen was coming to take everything Cersei held dear. funnily enough, considering where we are now, it was entirely about the journey with no eye towards the ending.
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
So other then the fact that this really could have used a few more episodes I have to admit I'm not nearly as mad as the internet seems to be.
Except for one thing.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
they already cut that last part though. they went to trouble of filming the prophecy scene and chose not to include the part about the valonqar.
??? What...would even be the point of that scene? Without the prophecy?
The parts about her children dying and being replaced by a younger Queen were still relevant.
Oh right, those bits. I guess in my mind it was either the entire dang prophecy or a scene where "Yea me and my two girlfriends went and saw this old spooky hag, she thought she was magic or something, it was funny, the end"
FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
Cersei "The Red Keep has never fallen and it won't today."
Umm, tell that to your dad? Hell, Qyburn's idea of going to Maegor's holdfast because it's safer...right next to Raper McPufnstuf who scaled it's walls the last time King's Landing was sacked.
I’m disappointed the Dany turn was so abrupt that people say it was stupid rather try to rationalize it.
Honestly in a way it was worse than Anakin’s heel turn. At least Anakin thought the Jedi were attempting a coup and made the wrong choice as to what side to support, even if he went to “lets kill kids” way too quickly from there.
Dany had basically won, the city was surrendering, the enemy was defeated, and then she all the sudden is like “oh, I won, wait there are some kids over there lets burn those fuckers.”
When she took off I was sure the way this was going down was she was going after the Red Keep directly. Then they cut the shot and no actually she's just carving up the city for some reason.
She's making it personal, you see.
what does that mean what does any of this mean
Just ignore the post episode explanations. They aren’t real
Even without that, why does she burn the city before the keep
Why doesn't she go straight for her enemy and destroy her
Why is it the bells ringing out surrender that triggers this character decision instead of something like seeing that Tyrion has betrayed her
It doesn't flow or make sense to me. And then when you hear the dude that wrote this episode state her motivation in that moment was "to make it personal" well that makes even less sense!
I think this is maybe where people are having a disconnect on the discussion.
I don't think the bells are what triggered her decision. I think the bells are what caused her to have a decision to make at all. She lands, hears the bells that Tyrion begged her to honor and signify the end of the fighting. She then has a choice:
- Trust Tyrion (the advisor that has failed her multiple times) and trust that her current display of power will be enough to keep her on the throne (despite her telling us earlier in the episode that jon's secret will undermine her more and more)
OR
- Continue attacking. Get revenge on the populace that supported the woman that murdered her best friend. Get revenge on the populace that allowed her father and entire life to be taken from her. Show the rest of the continent that they must fear her and forget about Jon's secret.
She chose the second option. For many reasons all of which were outlined (much too briefly and truncated) in the episode. Like I said, the problem is that we needed at least a couple episodes of Dany falling into this mindset. Instead we got it offscreen between episodes and then it just "told" us this at the beginning of this episode.
I just want the last episode to be Ser Davos rescuing a few children, boarding the boat meant for Cersei and Jaime and rowing away from Kings Landing.
Just spend the first 5 to 10 minutes him saving some orphans and then the rest can be him singing sea shanties to the kids as they row further and further away from Kings Landing. "Have you heard the one about the Lion and the Squid?"
Explosions get smaller and quieter in the distance as the next hour of television passes. Credits roll to his voice singing. Maybe he breaks out a flute at some point.
I’m disappointed the Dany turn was so abrupt that people say it was stupid rather try to rationalize it.
Honestly in a way it was worse than Anakin’s heel turn. At least Anakin thought the Jedi were attempting a coup and made the wrong choice as to what side to support, even if he went to “lets kill kids” way too quickly from there.
Dany had basically won, the city was surrendering, the enemy was defeated, and then she all the sudden is like “oh, I won, wait there are some kids over there lets burn those fuckers.”
When she took off I was sure the way this was going down was she was going after the Red Keep directly. Then they cut the shot and no actually she's just carving up the city for some reason.
She's making it personal, you see.
what does that mean what does any of this mean
Just ignore the post episode explanations. They aren’t real
Even without that, why does she burn the city before the keep
Why doesn't she go straight for her enemy and destroy her
Why is it the bells ringing out surrender that triggers this character decision instead of something like seeing that Tyrion has betrayed her
It doesn't flow or make sense to me. And then when you hear the dude that wrote this episode state her motivation in that moment was "to make it personal" well that makes even less sense!
I think this is maybe where people are having a disconnect on the discussion.
I don't think the bells are what triggered her decision. I think the bells are what caused her to have a decision to make at all. She lands, hears the bells that Tyrion begged her to honor and signify the end of the fighting. She then has a choice:
- Trust Tyrion (the advisor that has failed her multiple times) and trust that her current display of power will be enough to keep her on the throne (despite her telling us earlier in the episode that jon's secret will undermine her more and more)
OR
- Continue attacking. Get revenge on the populace that supported the woman that murdered her best friend. Get revenge on the populace that allowed her father and entire life to be taken from her. Show the rest of the continent that they must fear her and forget about Jon's secret.
She chose the second option. For many reasons all of which were outlined (much too briefly and truncated) in the episode. Like I said, the problem is that we needed at least a couple episodes of Dany falling into this mindset. Instead we got it offscreen between episodes and then it just "told" us this at the beginning of this episode.
It was poorly done.
Plus what did they do to earn her mercy? Ring some bells? Should have rang those before any of this kicked off. And what are they offering her anyway? None of them removed Cersie before ringing the bells. Danny opened the gates herself, so they didn't even do that. All they did was ring some bells expecting mercy without do anything to prove their loyalty to her. Fuck, at least come walking out with Cersie in chains, or her head on pike.
Cersei "The Red Keep has never fallen and it won't today."
Umm, tell that to your dad? Hell, Qyburn's idea of going to Maegor's holdfast because it's safer...right next to Rapey McPufnstuf who scaled it's walls the last time King's Landing was sacked.
I thought she was going to jump (or at least angrily refuse) when they suggested that; given her displeasure with being forced to go there during the Blackwater
Like everyone is fixated on Dany’s story when the real character turns that made no fucking sense at all we’re Varys’s clumsy spy work, Jaime and Cersei throwing 7.8 seasons of character development in the toilet, and Arya deciding the very end of her quest was where she noped out/Sandor waiting until the very last moment to deliver such an inspiring note (I guess?)
Poop from a butt
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
Or varys knew exactly what danny was going to do to him and that tyrion would tell her and was willing to sacrifice his life to force Danny to show her true colors once and for all.
And yet Jon and everyone else just stood around to watch Drogon roast him.
I think after jon seeing what she did to varys and now what she did to kings landing may be enough to force jon to try to step up which may be what varys intended.
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didn't the show version cut the valonqar bit though? so i guess the show runners decided a while ago that they weren't going that route.
You've outlined a lot of character motivations and thoughts that are completely absent from what they wrote to appear on screen in this episode. In the episode,we know she knows the bells mean surrender as they made sure Tyrion mentioned it twice and they show the Bell tower as much as possible. The scene is, she's perched, the other army has surrendered, the bells ring, we see that she decides to kill most of KL with fire. There's no character interaction, there's nothing specific she sees, just bells ring, and that's it.
Poop from a butt
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/2019/04/10/game-of-thrones-hbo-wanted-more-episodes-final-season/
Oh yes I have thoughts about that stuff as well. Varys is so stupid now apparently that Tyrion has to tell him "it was me that betrayed you"!
One of the scenes that really got to me was the final interaction between him and Tyrion. Given that this interaction between them before the father slaying was one of my favorite and personally emotional scenes in the books. And I thought they nailed it with Tyrion in this episode.
I read everything obifetts way also
To me this was more of a sign of Tyrion’s respect for Varys, letting him know it was him who did it
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I disagree, we got that motivation in her scene with Tyrion and her scene with Jon. With Tyrion, she thought Jon had betrayed her (imagined), found out that Varys had betrayed her (real). She told us she knew the secret was out, that more and more people would discover that Jon had the better claim. Then in the scene with Jon, she tries one last time to get him to be with her. She wants to rule with love, but knows it can only happen with Jon literally at her side. Otherwise the plots will keep coming. He refuses, and she says "Let it be fear". There's her motivation. Declared out loud in the episode. She thinks she needs to rule by fear. And nothing that had been done up to that point was enough. She heard the bells. She knew what it meant. She decided to continue anyways. Obviously she didn't burn the city because she wasn't sure she had won the battle for KL yet. She knew she had won the battle. She burnt the city because she needed them to fear her. She needed Westeros to fear her.
Or varys knew exactly what danny was going to do to him and that tyrion would tell her and was willing to sacrifice his life to force Danny to show her true colors once and for all.
It's more or less what Aegon did. Highgarden and the West fell in line after the Field of Fire, and the Riverlands gave up when he melted Harrenhall. The North bent the knee rather than be the next example.
Thank you for pulling something out.
My question here is, if they did decide to do 2-3 more character driven low key episodes, why would that have put them behind on Star Wars?
The show still took 2 years to get done.
Except for one thing.
None of the prophecies have come to light in very purposeful ways.
So yes if you want to you can read a whole bunch of stuff into the truncated scenes and character moments
But a sign of poor writing is that you have to do that on your own instead of the text showing you what's going on and why
Tha abandonment of "themes" really sticks out this season. Things just happen because that's what they think is cool or where the story should go. There's no purpose or message. It's very disappointing, and honestly somewhat insulting to the audience.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Mostly agree except I thought the shots of Drogon burninating the scorpions mounted on the city walls were not good- technically, it was a little awkward, and none of the scorpions were pointed at him. The visuals thus contributed to the feeling that it was too easy for her to take them out, retroactively ruining some key parts of the prior episode.
Why did Tyrion need to say "it was me" though?
How did executing a guy plotting against her reveal her true colors? Why did Varys choose now to deliberately get caught?
It also short circuits any people trying to back Jon as the king due to his better claim. She is not claiming the 7 kingdoms based on blood she took it based on conquest. It is the I don't give a shit about how good you think my claim is if you do anything but exactly what I tell you I am going to reduce everything you love to cinders and there is nothing you can do to stop me.
they already cut that last part though. they went to trouble of filming the prophecy scene and chose not to include the part about the valonqar.
And yet Jon and everyone else just stood around to watch Drogon roast him.
??? What...would even be the point of that scene? Without the prophecy?
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the better option was actually suggested here a while back. have Varys stop Tyrion and ask him why(or something to that effect), in a mirror of Tyrion's trial. show that even at the end, even though their paths diverge they both still respect each other and the choices they've each made. that just as Varys did what he felt he needed to do to serve the realm, Tyrion to feels that he only has one option and that there is a mutual understanding of each others motivations.
This is actually a cool and good and cunning thought, and I actually am interested in the story here, but they only have like 80 minutes left for it now
They pooped on everyone else so hard in the service of ending the show before their stories were over
The parts about her children dying and being replaced by a younger Queen were still relevant.
I'm guessing in the books it'll be Jamie mercy killing Cersei after a rock falls on her.
I think this is maybe where people are having a disconnect on the discussion.
I don't think the bells are what triggered her decision. I think the bells are what caused her to have a decision to make at all. She lands, hears the bells that Tyrion begged her to honor and signify the end of the fighting. She then has a choice:
- Trust Tyrion (the advisor that has failed her multiple times) and trust that her current display of power will be enough to keep her on the throne (despite her telling us earlier in the episode that jon's secret will undermine her more and more)
OR
- Continue attacking. Get revenge on the populace that supported the woman that murdered her best friend. Get revenge on the populace that allowed her father and entire life to be taken from her. Show the rest of the continent that they must fear her and forget about Jon's secret.
She chose the second option. For many reasons all of which were outlined (much too briefly and truncated) in the episode. Like I said, the problem is that we needed at least a couple episodes of Dany falling into this mindset. Instead we got it offscreen between episodes and then it just "told" us this at the beginning of this episode.
It was poorly done.
it was used as background for Cersei's hatred and mistrust of Margaery. to show that it wasn't just a mother fearful of losing her son(s) to another woman, but that this younger Queen was coming to take everything Cersei held dear. funnily enough, considering where we are now, it was entirely about the journey with no eye towards the ending.
Oh right, those bits. I guess in my mind it was either the entire dang prophecy or a scene where "Yea me and my two girlfriends went and saw this old spooky hag, she thought she was magic or something, it was funny, the end"
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Fuck Joe Manchin
Cersei "The Red Keep has never fallen and it won't today."
Umm, tell that to your dad? Hell, Qyburn's idea of going to Maegor's holdfast because it's safer...right next to Raper McPufnstuf who scaled it's walls the last time King's Landing was sacked.
Well I'll agree with that last part for sure
Just spend the first 5 to 10 minutes him saving some orphans and then the rest can be him singing sea shanties to the kids as they row further and further away from Kings Landing. "Have you heard the one about the Lion and the Squid?"
Explosions get smaller and quieter in the distance as the next hour of television passes. Credits roll to his voice singing. Maybe he breaks out a flute at some point.
Plus what did they do to earn her mercy? Ring some bells? Should have rang those before any of this kicked off. And what are they offering her anyway? None of them removed Cersie before ringing the bells. Danny opened the gates herself, so they didn't even do that. All they did was ring some bells expecting mercy without do anything to prove their loyalty to her. Fuck, at least come walking out with Cersie in chains, or her head on pike.
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I thought she was going to jump (or at least angrily refuse) when they suggested that; given her displeasure with being forced to go there during the Blackwater
I think after jon seeing what she did to varys and now what she did to kings landing may be enough to force jon to try to step up which may be what varys intended.