I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
Still a bit strange given that Jon granted them lands south when he was king. Also do they ever talk about in the books why they didn't just build a bridge over the Gorge?
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
jeebus, the lands beyond the wall are almost as big as the north itself. when all that warms up the north and the wildlings will do just fine and could tell the southerners to fuck right off
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
Still a bit strange given that Jon granted them lands south when he was king. Also do they ever talk about in the books why they didn't just build a bridge over the Gorge?
No, but it is said that wildlings sneak around, over, and under the Wall; it's why they patrol it.
Presumably those patrols extend along the southern length of the Gorge, and would make any major construction futile; assuming the free-folk even possessed the requisite engineering knowledge to manage it.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
Still a bit strange given that Jon granted them lands south when he was king. Also do they ever talk about in the books why they didn't just build a bridge over the Gorge?
No, but it is said that wildlings sneak around, over, and under the Wall; it's why they patrol it.
Presumably those patrols extend along the southern length of the Gorge, and would make any major construction futile; assuming the free-folk even possessed the requisite engineering knowledge to manage it.
In the books it is heaviliy implied that the wall is magical, and that it keeps out the white walkers provided it is manned continually.
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
Still a bit strange given that Jon granted them lands south when he was king. Also do they ever talk about in the books why they didn't just build a bridge over the Gorge?
No, but it is said that wildlings sneak around, over, and under the Wall; it's why they patrol it.
Presumably those patrols extend along the southern length of the Gorge, and would make any major construction futile; assuming the free-folk even possessed the requisite engineering knowledge to manage it.
In the books it is heaviliy implied that the wall is magical, and that it keeps out the white walkers provided it is manned continually.
It's not heavily implied. It's straight up stated. There is a door that opens by being a night watchman, sticking your hand in its mouth, and saying the words of their vow; blackhands says the wall prevents beings like him from passing; and also
there's the whole thing about the dragons of Jaeharys and his wife refusing to cross the wall at all.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
Still a bit strange given that Jon granted them lands south when he was king. Also do they ever talk about in the books why they didn't just build a bridge over the Gorge?
No, but it is said that wildlings sneak around, over, and under the Wall; it's why they patrol it.
Presumably those patrols extend along the southern length of the Gorge, and would make any major construction futile; assuming the free-folk even possessed the requisite engineering knowledge to manage it.
In the books it is heaviliy implied that the wall is magical, and that it keeps out the white walkers provided it is manned continually.
It's not heavily implied. It's straight up stated. There is a door that opens by being a night watchman, sticking your hand in its mouth, and saying the words of their vow; blackhands says the wall prevents beings like him from passing; and also
there's the whole thing about the dragons of Jaeharys and his wife refusing to cross the wall at all.
Snarks and grumpkins, too, no doubt.
Which is also why Jon offered the Wildlings land South of it. The wildlings weren't trying to escape a bad harvest, they wanted the Wall between them and the Ice Lich.
There is a bridge across the Gorge (between Shadow Tower and the star west of it in that map), but presumably the Others couldn't cross it either.
It just occurred to me that soldier Ed Sheeran was probably in King's Landing when the attack happened. There were no survivors afterwards so he was either cooked by dragon fire or had an axe split his melon.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
It just occurred to me that soldier Ed Sheeran was probably in King's Landing when the attack happened. There were no survivors afterwards so he was either cooked by dragon fire or had an axe split his melon.
We already know what happened to him: he was part of the convoy Daenerys attacked in season 7. His face was burnt off, but he apparently survived. One of the hookers Bronn's about to sleep with before Qyburn shows up with the crossbow mentions it.
It just occurred to me that soldier Ed Sheeran was probably in King's Landing when the attack happened. There were no survivors afterwards so he was either cooked by dragon fire or had an axe split his melon.
He had already had his face melted off before the attack on Kings Landing even happened.
Random positive note about the books: I like GRRM's commitment to not completely fleshing out the world, keeping the world knowledge from an exclusively Westerosi perspective. "No you don't get to learn about Ulthos". I think that's a respectable sign of restraint.
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
The issue I have, is that based on what we've seen of the character, I don't think that loyalty ends quite so quickly as it appears to.
"I am loyal to the point of stupid, to defend and protect my queen, and act on her orders."
*Jon sticks Dany with the pointy end*
"Whelp, my duty is complete. Nothing to see here, moving along."
Brienne followed through on two sets of vows, long after the death of those she'd sworn to.
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
You didn't give it a title.
Might I humbly recommend "The Westeros Wing".
I mean.... it's RIGHT THERE.
Get Snuffy and Djawadi in a room together, and knock out a theme song.
I don't get all the hate. They chose to wrap up all the plotlines and arcs as efficiently and simply as possible. Other shows have given us the finger in the finale, GoT gave us the Hollywood McDonald's version of exactly what we asked for. It's nearly the best I'd've hoped for.
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
Grey Worm was loyal to his Queen and had nothing left to live for after Missandei died. There was no logical reason for him to not at least attempt to kill Jon.
Drogon is harder to read as dragon intelligence is undefined. They act like smart aggressive predators, like lions or other big cats. So it'd make sense if Detective Drogon couldn't figure out exactly why Dany died since he didn't see it, and therefore didn't melt Jon. But why would he melt the Iron Throne? Great metaphor, no logical reason.
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
Grey Worm was loyal to his Queen and had nothing left to live for after Missandei died. There was no logical reason for him to not at least attempt to kill Jon.
Drogon is harder to read as dragon intelligence is undefined. They act like smart aggressive predators, like lions or other big cats. So it'd make sense if Detective Drogon couldn't figure out exactly why Dany died since he didn't see it, and therefore didn't melt Jon. But why would he melt the Iron Throne? Great metaphor, no logical reason.
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
Grey Worm was loyal to his Queen and had nothing left to live for after Missandei died. There was no logical reason for him to not at least attempt to kill Jon.
I'm not really sure that logic is really a place to argue from, when you're talking about loyalty, emotion, and what a character should do.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
Grey Worm was loyal to his Queen and had nothing left to live for after Missandei died. There was no logical reason for him to not at least attempt to kill Jon.
I'm not really sure that logic is really a place to argue from, when you're talking about loyalty, emotion, and what a character should do.
I guess “logical” is the wrong word. How about “there was nothing emotional or practical preventing him from killing Jon.”
re Greyworm’s character being butchered- I don’t see that at all. I can accept that Dany’s turn wasn’t properly realized, or even that it’s not a turn that should have happened even with better development. But Greyworm is basically: completely loyal, and also in love. Those are really his only two strong character traits. Has he ever even considered for half a second countermanding a single one of Dany’s orders? And in what way would going vengeful after Missandei’s death betray his prior development? He doesn’t have much development, in the books or in the show. What is being walked back or betrayed?
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
Grey Worm was loyal to his Queen and had nothing left to live for after Missandei died. There was no logical reason for him to not at least attempt to kill Jon.
Drogon is harder to read as dragon intelligence is undefined. They act like smart aggressive predators, like lions or other big cats. So it'd make sense if Detective Drogon couldn't figure out exactly why Dany died since he didn't see it, and therefore didn't melt Jon. But why would he melt the Iron Throne? Great metaphor, no logical reason.
Just assume Chrysreviews!Drogon is canon
These shall remain my parallel head canon for what level Drogon is operating on:
Posts
Still a bit strange given that Jon granted them lands south when he was king. Also do they ever talk about in the books why they didn't just build a bridge over the Gorge?
jeebus, the lands beyond the wall are almost as big as the north itself. when all that warms up the north and the wildlings will do just fine and could tell the southerners to fuck right off
Presumably those patrols extend along the southern length of the Gorge, and would make any major construction futile; assuming the free-folk even possessed the requisite engineering knowledge to manage it.
In the books it is heaviliy implied that the wall is magical, and that it keeps out the white walkers provided it is manned continually.
It's not heavily implied. It's straight up stated. There is a door that opens by being a night watchman, sticking your hand in its mouth, and saying the words of their vow; blackhands says the wall prevents beings like him from passing; and also
Snarks and grumpkins, too, no doubt.
Which is also why Jon offered the Wildlings land South of it. The wildlings weren't trying to escape a bad harvest, they wanted the Wall between them and the Ice Lich.
There is a bridge across the Gorge (between Shadow Tower and the star west of it in that map), but presumably the Others couldn't cross it either.
We already know what happened to him: he was part of the convoy Daenerys attacked in season 7. His face was burnt off, but he apparently survived. One of the hookers Bronn's about to sleep with before Qyburn shows up with the crossbow mentions it.
He had already had his face melted off before the attack on Kings Landing even happened.
The issue I have, is that based on what we've seen of the character, I don't think that loyalty ends quite so quickly as it appears to.
"I am loyal to the point of stupid, to defend and protect my queen, and act on her orders."
*Jon sticks Dany with the pointy end*
"Whelp, my duty is complete. Nothing to see here, moving along."
Brienne followed through on two sets of vows, long after the death of those she'd sworn to.
Yes, there's a technical loophole available for Grey Worm. But Grey Worm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would skip out on duty due to a technicality.
Not saying he'd try and stay for Dany's sake to restore the Seven Kingdoms. But not trying to stick Jon with his spear multiple times just doesn't ring true. Anymore than Drogon not trying to kill Jon either.
Sure, you can argue otherwise, but to me it seems out of character for both of them.
You didn't give it a title.
Might I humbly recommend "The Westeros Wing".
I mean.... it's RIGHT THERE.
Get Snuffy and Djawadi in a room together, and knock out a theme song.
Ramin Djawadi has delivered solid work!
Grey Worm was loyal to his Queen and had nothing left to live for after Missandei died. There was no logical reason for him to not at least attempt to kill Jon.
Drogon is harder to read as dragon intelligence is undefined. They act like smart aggressive predators, like lions or other big cats. So it'd make sense if Detective Drogon couldn't figure out exactly why Dany died since he didn't see it, and therefore didn't melt Jon. But why would he melt the Iron Throne? Great metaphor, no logical reason.
So you kind of do.
Just assume Chrysreviews!Drogon is canon
I'm not really sure that logic is really a place to argue from, when you're talking about loyalty, emotion, and what a character should do.
I guess “logical” is the wrong word. How about “there was nothing emotional or practical preventing him from killing Jon.”
The dothraki as Dany's bloodriders are duty bound to kill Jon.
There is no way Jon leaves Kings Landing alive without at least a skirmish.
They kinda forgot about their duty.
Doesn't Jon killing Dany mean he's their khal now?
Dany's bloodriders are supposed to avenge her and commit suicide.
Dany named all the Dothraki her bloodriders.
Especially given their forces were only depleted by half.
Apparently.
After they were wiped out.
Only a flesh wound.
Or, they just forgot that mortal wounds killed you.
A mortal wound is a wound a mortal has, what's the problem
Grey Worm told them Drogon did it, then breathed a sigh of relief as they fucked off East after him.
He did leave by boat. That's like Dothraki invisibility.
These shall remain my parallel head canon for what level Drogon is operating on:
Good doggo | Rhodes scholar
Maybe both, if you scratch his tummy just right.
Drogon did hide the body.
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